Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: chuck peterson on August 18, 2016, 10:04:27 AM
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http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-08-18/hog-slaughtered-harley-davidson-tumbles-after-us-accuses-it-evading-emissions-requir
Just caught doing what we know they are doing. Might be the beginnings of a controlled exhaust environment...
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They're just going after another OEM. This won't affect individuals.
EPA does not want OEMs defeating emissions equipment.
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The comments show that I LOT of people out there hate motorcycles/Harley. Wow.
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The comments show that I LOT of people out there hate motorcycles/Harley. Wow.
It is the internet , don't pay too much attention .
Dusty
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It is the internet , don't pay too much attention .
Dusty
Lots of Harley hate, there's even some on this site... Most who hate then have never ridden one..... I was told by a rider on a new Harley big twin my older Buell is a fake Harley..
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Lots of Harley hate, there's even some on this site... Most who hate then have never ridden one..... I was told by a rider on a new Harley big twin my older Buell is a fake Harley..
Well , the world is full of folks that must hate something , anything , to justify their existence . My point is , they don't represent a majority , or even a significant minority , they are simply loud obnoxious people that use the anonymity of the internet to voice their complaints . Frankly , in general folks just aggravate the hellouttame , but whaddaya gonna do ?? :laugh:
Dusty
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The comments show that I LOT of people out there hate motorcycles/Harley. Wow.
Pretty obvious that website doesn't vet/verify users, and definitely doesn't moderate comments. More of a mob than a community...
As for the posted 'news' re HD, after the VW scandal (and the Mitsubishi scandal, and the Suzuki office raid!), who can be surprised if governments throughout the western world are coming down hard on any manufacturer that might be crossing the line?
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Talk about a misleading headline. Up to the minute quote shows the stock down $.84 to $53.64. All of a 1.54% change.
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Talk about a misleading headline. Up to the minute quote shows the stock down $.84 to $53.64. All of a 1.54% change.
Look at the chart - it's down about $4 (i.e., 7% or more) with much greater trading volume over the past two or three days. Today's drop is only a small continuation of that.
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Look at the chart - it's down about $4 (i.e., 7% or more) with much greater trading volume over the past two or three days. Today's drop is only a small continuation of that.
True, but if you look at the past 3 months chart, the low was $41.63 back near the end of June, so it's still up ~$10 from that point. I was really just commenting about the "sky is falling" headline.
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Stock drop is mostly due to sales are down, and the models selling have a smaller margin.
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What does it mean?
HD dealers won't be able to install aftermarket stuff that affects emissions.
Results possible. Aftermarket suppliers to HD will take a hit. Independent HD shops will see an increase in business. HD dealers will lose some profit on all those parts they used to sell. HD service departments will have a lot less work. Less HD sales cause people can't get 'such and such' installed on their bike when they buy it.
If I were someone to take advantage of such, I'd find a huge HD dealer, arrange with them to set up a shop next door. Install any aftermarket parts desired. Might be able to do this and be paid by the dealer so the buyer can put the whole purchase price on his loan with HD. That might not be possible depending on how lawsuit agreements are worded. Would have to consult a lawyer to see how to best "bundle" the price to the customer.
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It is the internet , don't pay too much attention .
Dusty
So is this😎
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So is this😎
No worries , doubt if anyone is paying too much attention here :laugh:
Dusty
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Personally I hope an aftereffect is that straight pipes will become unobtanium.. but that's just me..
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What does it mean?
HD dealers won't be able to install aftermarket stuff that affects emissions.
I have to wonder.....I have not data on this, but....
For years I had heard that HD made most of their profits off of accessories. It was implied that meant t-shirt, etc.
Maybe those profits were on flatulent pipes and smog making accessories.
I know personally that long ago when you ordered a new HD, the shop automatically included Screaming Eagle flatulent pipes with your new bike, and you had no choice.
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I have to wonder.....I have not data on this, but....
For years I had heard that HD made most of their profits off of accessories. It was implied that meant t-shirt, etc.
Maybe those profits were on flatulent pipes and smog making accessories.
I know personally that long ago when you ordered a new HD, the shop automatically included Screaming Eagle flatulent pipes with your new bike, and you had no choice.
Yes large profits in accessories and Motor clothes , but not the primary profit maker . Never heard the "pipes" thing before , sounds fishy .
Dusty
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The only "hating" the public has is sitting at an outdoor patio with friends and having a motorcycle come by with loud obnoxious exhaust.
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Triumph and Arrow should be crapping their pants right about now. Triumph also sells Triumph branded "Off Road Only" exhausts, wink, wink, nod, nod...
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The only "hating" the public has is sitting at an outdoor patio with friends and having a motorcycle come by with loud obnoxious exhaust.
I admit I join the hating crowd when I am sitting in my basement watching a movie and I have to pause to wait for the guy with the obnoxious pipes to pass by. If I was quicker I would run out and chase some of em down.
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I hope this develops further to ridding the country of the obnoxious loud pipes.
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I have to wonder.....I have not data on this, but....
For years I had heard that HD made most of their profits off of accessories. It was implied that meant t-shirt, etc.
Maybe those profits were on flatulent pipes and smog making accessories.
I know personally that long ago when you ordered a new HD, the shop automatically included Screaming Eagle flatulent pipes with your new bike, and you had no choice.
That rumor has circulated for years among the HD hater crowd.
HD is a publicly traded company and this info is readily available.
Last time I looked, MotorClothes was a $1B piece of the action, while motorcycles were something like $3B.
Clothing and lifestyle accessories are an important part of the business, but only a peripheral one.
HD is about motorcycles.
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Personally I hope an aftereffect is that straight pipes will become unobtanium.. but that's just me..
Agreed. I've been saying for years: loud pipes don't save lives, they just annoy people. My wife and I were in a small shop in Lake Placid some years ago, 4 or 5 Harley's backed up to the curb when we went in. We were having a discussion about what to get our grandson, next thing ya know we couldn't hear ourselves think much less converse. It'd be one thing if they fired 'em up and rode away, but nooo, they had to sit there revving them for what seemed like five minutes. At one point my wife grabbed me by the shoulder as I was headed out the door... And I like internal combusted horsepower as much as anyone, but I don't believe in inflicting it on those who don't have an appreciation for it. Wanna be heard on the road? Pay attention and lay on your air horn at the appropriate time when someone needs to be woke up! Or be ready to grab a bunch of good brakes cuz no matter how much noise ya make they still won't see ya!
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I wonder what percentage of pipes out there are "Off Road Only"? I would suspect that in the cruiser and crotch rocket crowds it is approaching if not over half.
I know if my truck were that loud I would be getting tickets every time I went out.
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I hope this develops further to ridding the country of the obnoxious loud pipes.
That plan would require Federal enforcement of EPA regs at a consumer level. Not gonna happen anytime soon.
EPA/DOT/etc. regulate what companies sell to consumers. They don't regulate what consumers do with the product.
Consumer regulations fall to The States, some of which do check for EPA/DOT compliance to various degrees.
Many don't. And many won't.
Local example: my town has a noise ordinance. It's basically unenforced throughout the year. And, is actually put on pause for a week during our big "Bikes, Blues, & BBQ" rally each September. I (and many locals) usually leave town for someplace quiet.
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No worries , doubt if anyone is paying too much attention here :laugh:
Dusty
I think the Russians disagree.
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Personally I hope an aftereffect is that straight pipes will become unobtanium.. but that's just me..
Bump :thumb:
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Yes large profits in accessories and Motor clothes , but not the primary profit maker . Never heard the "pipes" thing before , sounds fishy .
Dusty
Much better article on Reuters
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-harley-davidson-lawsuit-idUSKCN10T1JP
The have sold 340,000 super tuners in 8 years. This is not chump change. and HOG has to buy back from dealers all remaining product on the shelves.
"The settlement resolves government allegations that Harley sold roughly 340,000 "super tuners" enabling motorcycles since 2008 to pollute the air at levels greater than what the Milwaukee-based company certified to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency."
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From Fortune: Harley-Davidson agreed to pay a $12 million civil fine and stop selling illegal after-market devices that cause its motorcycles to emit too much pollution, the U.S. Justice Department said on Thursday.
The settlement resolves government allegations that Harley sold roughly 340,000 �super tuners� enabling motorcycles since 2008 to pollute the air at levels greater than what the Milwaukee-based company certified to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.
According to the government, the sale of such �defeat devices� violates the federal Clean Air Act. Harley was also accused of selling more than 12,600 motorcycles that were not covered by an EPA certification governing clean air compliance.
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I hope this develops further to ridding the country of the obnoxious loud pipes.
Play stupid, (And non performance enhancing!) games? Win stupid prizes?
QED.
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I don't see a lot of difference between faking the computer settings to pass emissions and selling an emissions-compliant bike with the intention of making it non-compliant as part of the sale. It's deliberate cheating at a corporate scale.
Also -- I read above where the sales of this sort of stuff -- 1/3 revenue -- is 'peripheral' sales, meaning inconsequential or minimal. I wouldn't see a third of my business as 'peripheral'. In a world where 60% or more of business revenue goes up in taxes and overhead, I'd see 1/3 as my entire earnings. I think this will hurt Harley. I think it will also give them the message that they have too much dependence on fluff and trinkets.
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One of the intriguing questions coming out of this 'consent agreement' is whether companies like DynoJet will be affected. The important part is that of the statement:
"This settlement immediately stops the sale of illegal after-market defeat devices used on public roads that threaten the air we breathe," said Cynthia Giles, assistant administrator for EPA�s Office of Enforcement and Compliance Assurance.
In a separate statement, the company said it has sold the product for more then 20 years under an accepted regulatory approach that permitted the sale of competition-only parts and said it believed it was legal to use in race conditions in the United States.
I'd find that defense difficult to accept given the numbers of the products sold by HD - some 340,000 since 2008 according to the stories published. I somehow don't believe there are 340,000 dedicated racing motorcycles of all brands combined, let alone Harleys by themselves.
The important question is whether the precedent will be used to pressure other makers of devices that modify tuning of vehicles subject to emission regulation. If so, many players in the market, from DynoJet to Superchips to who knows who will all be under threat. Thankfully, map modification by individual owners would not be affected since the sharing of things like software and data is largely protected speech - and each owner would need to be individually investigated and prosecuted. It's the sellers of commercial products that have thunderclouds gathering overhead...
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They must have ticked off the same people VW did.
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I don't see a lot of difference between faking the computer settings to pass emissions and selling an emissions-compliant bike with the intention of making it non-compliant as part of the sale. It's deliberate cheating at a corporate scale.
Also -- I read above where the sales of this sort of stuff -- 1/3 revenue -- is 'peripheral' sales, meaning inconsequential or minimal. I wouldn't see a third of my business as 'peripheral'. In a world where 60% or more of business revenue goes up in taxes and overhead, I'd see 1/3 as my entire earnings. I think this will hurt Harley. I think it will also give them the message that they have too much dependence on fluff and trinkets.
25% in my example ($1B of a $4B total), but I didn't include Parts & Accessories, which adds somewhere around another $1B.
And, Screaming Eagle tuners are only a fraction of overall revenue in the Parts & Accessories department.
Now, if they ban Chrome. Now that would hurt! LOL! :laugh:
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The important question is whether the precedent will be used to pressure other makers of devices that modify tuning of vehicles subject to emission regulation. If so, many players in the market, from DynoJet to Superchips to who knows who will all be under threat. Thankfully, map modification by individual owners would not be affected since the sharing of things like software and data is largely protected speech - and each owner would need to be individually investigated and prosecuted. It's the sellers of commercial products that have thunderclouds gathering overhead...
The "For Off Road Use Only" exemption will have to be removed from the books.
Otherwise, 3rd party companies don't know what the end-user will do with the product.
The issue at hand is Harley and Harley Dealers knowingly sending new street machines out the door with Off Road accessories installed.
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Just pass a law that exhaust without baffles or with removable baffles can't be shiny.. then they won't want them any more..
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"Harley did not admit liability, and said in a statement it disagrees with the government's position arguing that the devices were designed and sold to be used in "competition only.""
All those competition ready choppers and baggers. Not that I have any room to throw stones with my bikes for that matter. :embarrassed:
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Did any one catch this in the replies?
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MillionDollarBonus_ ï¤ falconer •Aug 18, 2016 10:44 AM
The whole biker culture is cesspit of backward right wing views, vulgar masculinity, and climate change denial. It's part of the same white trash subculture that consistently prevents us from introducing sensible gun control laws to put a stop to the epidemic of gun violence in America. Groups like this need to be monitored and kept in line, before they become emboldened and commit some kind of horrendous terror attack against our government.
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Yes Red , but maybe we decided to ignore that comment .
Dusty
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That plan would require Federal enforcement of EPA regs at a consumer level. Not gonna happen anytime soon.
EPA/DOT/etc. regulate what companies sell to consumers. They don't regulate what consumers do with the product.
Consumer regulations fall to The States, some of which do check for EPA/DOT compliance to various degrees.
Many don't. And many won't.
Local example: my town has a noise ordinance. It's basically unenforced throughout the year. And, is actually put on pause for a week during our big "Bikes, Blues, & BBQ" rally each September. I (and many locals) usually leave town for someplace quiet.
The EPA has all but shut down the aftermarket tuners for automobiles in the USA. Folks are now ordering 'off road diesel kits' from Korea. Those kits replace the troublesome emissions stuff that do not work in the long term. Making expensive vehicles almost worthless after the warranty is up.
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The EPA has all but shut down the aftermarket tuners for automobiles in the USA. Folks are now ordering 'off road diesel kits' from Korea. Those kits replace the troublesome emissions stuff that do not work in the long term. Making expensive vehicles almost worthless after the warranty is up.
Actually do you really think that's true. Every automotive forum I frequent still talks about the availability of tuners?
Also, it should be noted that a number of Harley's late-model Screaming Eagle accessories (ok, I'm sure the minority, but a number) were tagged 50 state or 49 state Street Legal (largely a number of accessory mufflers).
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Who's fooled by the chrome-and-black cruiser rider buying 'off-road-only' mufflers? If you believe any more than that rider or the shop that sold the pipes that it will see more off-road than a tavern parking lot on burnout night, show hands, please.
I didn't think so.
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The EPA has all but shut down the aftermarket tuners for automobiles in the USA. Folks are now ordering 'off road diesel kits' from Korea. Those kits replace the troublesome emissions stuff that do not work in the long term. Making expensive vehicles almost worthless after the warranty is up.
I have to disagree. There are tens of thousands that attend the SEMA show where there are hundreds of manufacturers that sell CARB approved aftermarket parts.
and now you did it. You made me agree with Kev. :huh:
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UH OH , that point of agreement might bring not only WG , but the entire internet crashing down .
Everybody DUCK !
:shocked: :evil:
Dusty
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I agreed with Kev once. I think the topic was PIE! :food:
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and now you did it. You made me agree with Kev. :huh:
I've agreed with Kev lots of times - usually, when he's said something well enough I end up with nothing to add, so I never post in reply! :azn:
Mind you, there's a bunch of times when I look at his sig photo and say to myself "can I believe anything that comes from that?"
Since I don't eat desserts, I have no opinion on pie. :tongue:
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the sharing of things like software and data is largely protected speech
= = =
I agree, but the Feds may not.
Consider 3-D printer code for (EEK!) Guns. This is declared exporting of defense material, and is outlawed.
PS, maybe lane splitting is considered 'off road'?????
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If the sharing of things like software and data was protected under the constitution as free speech, then Microsoft couldn't enforce their copyright policies and google couldn't collect our data. These companies in particular have made it very clear that software is a commercial commodity and data is an open resource to be mined. They've successfully argued that in court continuously since their corporate inceptions, and they can't have it both ways.
$0.02
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Lots of Harley hate, there's even some on this site... Most who hate then have never ridden one..... I was told by a rider on a new Harley big twin my older Buell is a fake Harley..
That word "Hate" isn't even usable any more in today's world.
It's been co-opted by people who want to control others to "shut people up" by describing them as "haters" if they have a differing opinion on any subject than they do. Sort of a "1984" thing.
Same thing with "racist", "sexist", anything with "phobe" in it, or "bigot". For me, the concept of "I'll shut you up by shaming you with a mean name" is WAY played and doesn't affect me any more ....
I can say that I don't like loud bikes being revved at lights without being a "hater".
Lannis
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Did any one catch this in the replies?
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MillionDollarBonus_ ï¤ falconer •Aug 18, 2016 10:44 AM
The whole biker culture is cesspit of backward right wing views, vulgar masculinity, and climate change denial. It's part of the same white trash subculture that consistently prevents us from introducing sensible gun control laws to put a stop to the epidemic of gun violence in America. Groups like this need to be monitored and kept in line, before they become emboldened and commit some kind of horrendous terror attack against our government.
When do criminals obey laws?
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Actually do you really think that's true. Every automotive forum I frequent still talks about the availability of tuners?
Also, it should be noted that a number of Harley's late-model Screaming Eagle accessories (ok, I'm sure the minority, but a number) were tagged 50 state or 49 state Street Legal (largely a number of accessory mufflers).
The tuners today do not offer the same 'features'.
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The tuners today do not offer the same 'features'.
I'm not sure what you mean?
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That word "Hate" isn't even usable any more in today's world.
It's been co-opted by people who want to control others to "shut people up" by describing them as "haters" if they have a differing opinion on any subject than they do. Sort of a "1984" thing.
Same thing with "racist", "sexist", anything with "phobe" in it, or "bigot". For me, the concept of "I'll shut you up by shaming you with a mean name" is WAY played and doesn't affect me any more ....
I can say that I don't like loud bikes being revved at lights without being a "hater".
Lannis
Don't most Harley's have that slow idle so when they are stopped for a light it sounds like an two cylinder JD tractor? I want to go over and turn up their idle slightly so it runs smoother..
My bikes are somewhat loud but I'm smart enough to tone it down in town ...
Around here it seems almost all Harleys and Sport bikes have an after market exhaust. In fact a lot of PU trucks have loud exhausts...The clowns in their Ram Diesels with the loud "big rig sound" and gas engine Chevys with twice pipes...
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In fact a lot of PU trucks have loud exhausts...The clowns in their Ram Diesels with the loud "big rig sound" and gas engine Chevys with twice pipes.
Plus for the diesels spewing large clouds of black smoke. :angry:
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Don't most Harley's have that slow idle so when they are stopped for a light it sounds like an two cylinder JD tractor? I want to go over and turn up their idle slightly so it runs smoother..
Depends on what you mean by most.
In theory nothing should have a very slow idle if set to spec, not in decades. Even since the 90's the idle setting on the carb models was at least 1k.
The EFI ones idle even a tad higher.
But a good percentage of owners thinks a slow loping idle (that mimics something with a hot cam) sounds cool and many with carbs do set it incorrectly low that reason.
And yeah, I generally think to myself "I could fix that for you". :boozing:
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http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/harley-davidson-to-pay-dollar12-mln-fine-over-motorcycle-emissions/ar-BBvMpem?li=BBnbfcL
I'm not sure what you mean?
The tuners adjust less than before. Some limit the adjustments, others are simply no longer available, like removing the DEF/SCR monitoring. In my 2013 truck, some error codes DEF/SCR issues will cause the truck to go into limp mode, limited to 5 MPH, and requires a dealer to fix. Most independent shops do not have the resources to buy the new computers and/or software every year. The cost for dealerships is approaching $40k for software updates, so I am told by several multi-line dealerships. I have two friends who used to own successful independent shops that now work for dealers because they could not afford the computers now required.
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http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/harley-davidson-to-pay-dollar12-mln-fine-over-motorcycle-emissions/ar-BBvMpem?li=BBnbfcL
The tuners adjust less than before. Some limit the adjustments, others are simply no longer available, like removing the DEF/SCR monitoring. In my 2013 truck, some error codes DEF/SCR issues will cause the truck to go into limp mode, limited to 5 MPH, and requires a dealer to fix. Most independent shops do not have the resources to buy the new computers and/or software every year. The cost for dealerships is approaching $40k for software updates, so I am told by several multi-line dealerships. I have two friends who used to own successful independent shops that now work for dealers because they could not afford the computers now required.
Ah, ok, thanks for that clarification.
In both cases are we talking diesel only or diesel and gas?
FWIW, I was talking about owner purchased tuner software, like what Harley was selling or a half-dozen aftermarket companies sell, like the Dynojet Powervision. And the equivalents in the automotive world.
(http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/qmYAAOxyfCBSAj~w/s-l300.jpg)
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Don't most Harley's have that slow idle so when they are stopped for a light it sounds like an two cylinder JD tractor? I want to go over and turn up their idle slightly so it runs smoother..
My bikes are somewhat loud but I'm smart enough to tone it down in town ...
Around here it seems almost all Harleys and Sport bikes have an after market exhaust. In fact a lot of PU trucks have loud exhausts...The clowns in their Ram Diesels with the loud "big rig sound" and gas engine Chevys with twice pipes...
That's "Parade mode". ECU shuts down rear cylinder to prevent overheating. Which is pretty much anytime you ride in stop and go traffic.
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It's interesting to me most of the discussion here has been about loudness, but the U.S. seems to be approaching this as a pollution issue...
Kinda like catching gangsters on tax evasion, not crime
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H-D has been skating on thin ice for a long time with their (wonderful) Screamin Eagle performance parts designated for "Racing Only." How many Ultra Classic Limiteds have you seen on a racetrack???
The H-D aftermarket is so huge and the number of independent tuners so prevalent, I expect those parts/services will continue to be available.
Apparently, you will no longer be able to have official H-D dealers provide the re-mapping modules. Others, considered to be even better, are still out there on the market.
Many of the H-D big bore kits etc are sold with the mapping modules and under the advice that re-mapping is necessary for proper operation. I wonder how that will change. Maybe they will sell the kits but without their Super/Race Tuner mapping modules and leave it up to the buyer to "work it out." We will see.
H-D makes a wonderful machine. They outsell everybody and are targeted at the demographic profile that has allowed that.
However, properly set up, their bikes will run with anything out there. I've had them for many years along with about every other bike brand made and the H-D has proven to be the more trouble-free, reliable and easily serviced than anything made- by a long shot.
Most of the negative comments you hear on forum sites are from people who are either jealous or very ignorant. Some folks also think that in order to like one thing you must hate another and that's an attitude I classify as stupid.
There are positive aspects of just about any bike made. Heck, I even continue to own a couple of BMW's !! lol
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https://gearheadgrrrl.com/2016/08/18/is-the-epa-protectionist/
Compared to VW Group, HOG(NYSE) got off easy!
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Seems to me the EPA has begun to see how much power they can wield after their recent wins.
I would bet that they start hitting more and more mfgs of this kind of stuff as time goes on. Soon I suspect it will be to "close the loophole" on the off road only type accessories.
Don't Europe and Britain have strict rules on this kind of stuff? What are their penalties like?
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Chevys with twice pipes...
Agitate the gravel and let them twice pipes roar, Daddy-O...
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Depends on what you mean by most.
In theory nothing should have a very slow idle if set to spec, not in decades. Even since the 90's the idle setting on the carb models was at least 1k.
The EFI ones idle even a tad higher.
But a good percentage of owners thinks a slow loping idle (that mimics something with a hot cam) sounds cool and many with carbs do set it incorrectly low that reason.
And yeah, I generally think to myself "I could fix that for you". :boozing:
Most would mean custom Harleys, and it seems there's a lot of them around here...And it not a custom Harley, it's a newer Hayabusa or Kawa ZX with an extended swingarm and mega loud exhaust...Or a Ducati with after market mufflers, or the various Japanese V twin cruisers sounding like loud zero turn mowers....
I enjoy the crisp sound of a highly tuned engine, but to me, loud pipes on a stock Harley or truck/car just sounds like a junker with a rotted exhaust...
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Agitate the gravel and let them twice pipes roar, Daddy-O...
Yes....
I recently bought a 03 Silverado , 4.8 V-8 5 speed manual ...The previous owner installed a loud Cat Back twice pipe system...Some say nice sound...I dragged my butt under the truck and torched off the duals and put on a new single exhaust...I don't have to look over my shoulder for the cops when running it through the gears....And the duals don't make it run any better...
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By the way, on the loud pipes, H-D eliminated them from their own offerings years ago.
The few Screamin Eagle mufflers still in their catalogs are supposedly compliant. Not very loud even though, as with their stock systems, they flow pretty well. As a result, they are not big sellers in the aftermarket exhaust field these days. Plenty of other players still there.
I too agree about obnoxiously loud pipes. However, I have non-stock exhausts systems on my Guzzis as well as my H-Ds and practically all of my bikes. The custom system I used to have on my Daytona RS was on par with the loudest of any H-D set-up!
The problem is how the operator uses the free-flowing louder pipes.
Idiots like to whack down on them in highly-populated areas like shopping centers and downtown city locations. You don't need to do that! If you moderate the throttle, you will not make as much repulsive noise.
Out on the open road, away from these highly-populated places, you are less likely to offend with these exhausts.
Like many other things, an irresponsible minority of fools create problems for everyone else.
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The amusing thing here is the fact that most HD riders never use the "improved" performance offered by these devices . Seriously , at least around here it is unusual to encounter a Milwaukee Twin actually running at or even near the speed limit . Not knocking that , it just seems silly to spend money for a couple of extra Shetlands that will never leave the barn . There was a guy here that spent $10K installing a 120 CI aftermarket motor in his Alphabet Glide (TM) . The couple of times I rode with him and his buddies they were rocketing along at 55 MPH . I asked him if he ever really used the performance , he said "No , just nice to know it's there" :huh: :rolleyes: Meanwhile , I am
"using" every one of the 39 Shetlands corralled in the beater /5 and wondering why these new bikes can't or won't go more than 55 ???
Dusty
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I would bet that the profit margin on all this screaming eagle stuff is about 5 times more than selling bikes.
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I would bet that the profit margin on all this screaming eagle stuff is about 5 times more than selling bikes.
Ron tells me that the dealer where he works is now selling bikes at below retail . Interesting to watch the trend over the last 25 years or so . In the 1990's most dealers were selling bikes at significantly above retail , then about what, 2002 or so, most dealers were selling at retail . Now we are witnessing dealers selling at below retail . Heck , this trend keeps up , maybe HD's will be considered a bargain :laugh:
Dusty
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I would bet that the profit margin on all this screaming eagle stuff is about 5 times more than selling bikes.
What are you trying to say, here?
Would you rather have 20% of $15,000 a few hundred thousand times. Or, 50% of $200 a few thousand times.
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Ron tells me that the dealer where he works is now selling bikes at below retail .
Just remember that Dealer margin and MoCo margin are two different things.
Harley builds the bike
Harley sells the bike to the dealer at a profit
Dealer sells the bike to the customer, usually at a profit.
The MoCo makes money on every one of the several hundred thousand motorcycles it sells to dealers each year.
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Like many other things, an irresponsible minority of fools create problems for everyone else.
That's certainly the way it is here. I try to keep in touch with my V-twin cruiser-riding acquaintances, but what they are doing related to their motorcycles is not what I am doing. I like to ride - they never do anything except ride 25 miles or less, making noise, looking bad, and talking about all the performance mods they've made to their bikes. It's a sport and hobby, I suppose, but has little relation to what I do.
The best of those guys, I've known since we were kids. EVERY SINGLE BIKE he's ever bought since 1973, he has the dealer add a "Jet Kit" and a "Slip On" or other exhaust mod; today in the ECU era, every bike has a "Chip" and a "Free Flow Exhaust" added to it.
Does it do anything for performance? Why even ask such a question? because that's not the point. He's never going to use the "performance" anyhow, but he WILL let you know that his bike has these mods and is therefore a terror on the streets worthy of respect. I don't think he's ever put 4000 miles in one year on a bike, so longevity isn't an issue.
It's like playing fantasy football. You don't have to get dirty, even ....
Lannis
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Thankfully, map modification by individual owners would not be affected since the sharing of things like software and data is largely protected speech - and each owner would need to be individually investigated and prosecuted. It's the sellers of commercial products that have thunderclouds gathering overhead...
Sharing data is protected like free speech, but, the factory map is copy writable, and protectable by DRM (Digital Rights Management), basically a form of encryption to protect that data from being read. This same technology can be used to prevent WRITING the map by unauthorized parties.
The EPA very well could REQUIRE manufactures to utilize such technology to prevent end users, or any other unauthorized persons from modifying the map.
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Sharing data is protected like free speech, but, the factory map is copy writable, and protectable by DRM (Digital Rights Management), basically a form of encryption to protect that data from being read. This same technology can be used to prevent WRITING the map by unauthorized parties.
The EPA very well could REQUIRE manufactures to utilize such technology to prevent end users, or any other unauthorized persons from modifying the map.
Yes, that's what I am fearing!
Same for the Guzzi and other bikes. Tamper-Proof ECU.
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I too have heard this speculation on revenue and profits many times over the years, but the numbers in the annual reports never seem to back it up.
Here's a 2015 chart from the 10-k filing (P 4):
http://investor.harley-davidson.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=87981&p=irol-reportsannual
The following table includes the percent of total revenue by product line for the Motorcycles and Related Products
segment:
2015 2014 2013
Motorcycles 77.8% 78.8% 77.4%
Parts & Accessories 16.2% 15.7% 16.6%
General Merchandise 5.5% 5.1% 5.6%
Other 0.5% 0.4% 0.4%
100.0% 100.0% 100.0%
So no way that 16.2% revenue from Parts & Accessories, which is a LOT more than just the Screaming Eagle parts is the lion's share.
And another table from the same report (P 29):
Segment Results
The following table includes the condensed statement of operations for the Motorcycles segment (in thousands):
2015 2014
Revenue:
Motorcycles $ 4,127,739 $ 4,385,863
Parts & Accessories 862,645 875,019
General Merchandise 292,310 284,826
Other 26,050 21,973 4,077 18.6
Total revenue 5,308,744 5,567,681
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Yes, that's what I am fearing!
Same for the Guzzi and other bikes. Tamper-Proof ECU.
IIRC, many, if not all, currently shipping cars have "Tamper Proof" ECU's.
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Yes....
I recently bought a 03 Silverado , 4.8 V-8 5 speed manual ...The previous owner installed a loud Cat Back twice pipe system...Some say nice sound...I dragged my butt under the truck and torched off the duals and put on a new single exhaust...I don't have to look over my shoulder for the cops when running it through the gears....And the duals don't make it run any better...
Should have installed a Corsa, music to the ears. :boozing:
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The amusing thing here is the fact that most HD riders never use the "improved" performance offered by these devices . Seriously , at least around here it is unusual to encounter a Milwaukee Twin actually running at or even near the speed limit . Not knocking that , it just seems silly to spend money for a couple of extra Shetlands that will never leave the barn . There was a guy here that spent $10K installing a 120 CI aftermarket motor in his Alphabet Glide (TM) . The couple of times I rode with him and his buddies they were rocketing along at 55 MPH . I asked him if he ever really used the performance , he said "No , just nice to know it's there" :huh: :rolleyes: Meanwhile , I am
"using" every one of the 39 Shetlands corralled in the beater /5 and wondering why these new bikes can't or won't go more than 55 ???
Dusty
Two up Harley's with trailers were running 80 mph + coming back from Sturgis on Highway 212. :boozing:
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IIRC, many, if not all, currently shipping cars have "Tamper Proof" ECU's.
Thankfully, tamper-proof deserves the quotation marks. My many years in information security tell me that any form of encryption or protection is rather like a deadbolt - it might make a casual attempt difficult, but it can only delay things given a determined and professional attack. In addition, the only threat of penalty is for those who try to make a business of thwarting the lock-down; individual owners still have the right to modify or replace the code in the ECU's firmware. They would, of course, have to accept the risk of consequences for operating such a vehicle if their modifications increased emissions, such as the cost of returning the vehicle to stock, etc.
If someone were to distribute the original code, they would certainly be in violation of copyright - but it would be hard to enforce copyright against any modified map.
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After market exhaust systems, big business.
(http://i63.tinypic.com/rt3gy0.jpg)
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Thankfully, tamper-proof deserves the quotation marks. My many years in information security tell me that any form of encryption or protection is rather like a deadbolt - it might make a casual attempt difficult, but it can only delay things given a determined and professional attack. In addition, the only threat of penalty is for those who try to make a business of thwarting the lock-down; individual owners still have the right to modify or replace the code in the ECU's firmware. They would, of course, have to accept the risk of consequences for operating such a vehicle if their modifications increased emissions, such as the cost of returning the vehicle to stock, etc.
If someone were to distribute the original code, they would certainly be in violation of copyright - but it would be hard to enforce copyright against any modified map.
It would be simple for the mfg to make a black box ecu with a read only code. Solder in the chip and pot the whole thing. Seal the box by weld and/or folded edges.
Of course, if someone wanted to make a complete ecu to replace that box, then nothing to prevent that except laws. That is what many tuners do these days anyways. You buy a new ecu with a programmable code in it. The code can be changed/shared as you see fit. Of course their code/maps only work with their ecu.
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What are you trying to say, here?
Would you rather have 20% of $15,000 a few hundred thousand times. Or, 50% of $200 a few thousand times.
I'd call it icing on the cake.
.....or maybe since Harleys sell below retail now (according to Dusty), peanut butter on the cracker.
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I'd call it icing on the cake.
.....or maybe since Harleys sell below retail now (according to Dusty), peanut butter on the cracker.
Just going by what Ron is saying . Ft Thunder started the price war , Harley World simply responded.
Dusty
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I'd call it icing on the cake.
.....or maybe since Harleys sell below retail now (according to Dusty), peanut butter on the cracker.
Just going by what Ron is saying . Ft Thunder started the price war , Harley World simply responded.
Dusty
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I'd call it icing on the cake.
.....or maybe since Harleys sell below retail now (according to Dusty), peanut butter on the cracker.
Well again 16%ish isn't the peanut butter or the cracker. :wink:
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Seems to me the EPA has begun to see how much power they can wield after their recent wins.
I would bet that they start hitting more and more mfgs of this kind of stuff as time goes on. Soon I suspect it will be to "close the loophole" on the off road only type accessories.
Don't Europe and Britain have strict rules on this kind of stuff? What are their penalties like?
The EU countries are hitting VW every bit as hard as the US EPA has - even Germany is levying some substantial penalties. There are some variances since the rules differ, as do the degree by which VW therefore broke them, but the overall effect is like the classic 'running the gauntlet'.
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Its all about government agencies funding their departments and lawyers.
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Its all about government agencies funding their departments and lawyers.
The laws aren't passed by the agencies, departments, or the lawyers who work there; these people are doing their jobs. The laws come from Congress, the policy from the administration - and HD (and other manufacturers) have known for years if not decades that they were skating along on an 'interpretation' that favored their approach but had never been tested in court or arbitration.
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The laws aren't passed by the agencies, departments, or the lawyers who work there; these people are doing their jobs. The laws come from Congress, the policy from the administration - and HD (and other manufacturers) have known for years if not decades that they were skating along on an 'interpretation' that favored their approach but had never been tested in court or arbitration.
Is that actually true? I was under the perhaps mistaken impression some government agencies, like the EPA are handed the responsibility of creating the standards they are enforcing, so they're a step removed from Congress.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a bit of hippie/greenie from a "let's all do our part standpoint" but I think in same breath that the EPA regularly oversteps their bounds with no checks or balance.
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WE all know that laws are passed by Congress but, as an example: The famous BP Gulf oil spill of a few years ago. It's amazing to see hundreds of agencies from local Louisiana parishes to the State and Federal Government along with lawyers possibly numbering in the hundreds filing anything from personal to class action lawsuits. Many were thrown out of court simply because they didn't have any merit. And, of course, a lot of people have and are being arrested for fraudulent claims of being harmed in some way because of the spill.
Many new expensive motor homes were bought to use as "command centers" along with fleets of new 4 four wheelers, boats. etc. In short, the BP tragedy became the biggest economic boom in recent years for southern La, MS and SE Texas, especially for government agencies.
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WE all know that laws are passed by Congress but, as an example: The famous BP Gulf oil spill of a few years ago. It's amazing to see hundreds of agencies from local Louisiana parishes to the State and Federal Government along with lawyers possibly numbering in the hundreds filing anything from personal to class action lawsuits. Many were thrown out of court simply because they didn't have any merit. And, of course, a lot of people have and are being arrested for fraudulent claims of being harmed in some way because of the spill.
Many new expensive motor homes were bought to use as "command centers" along with fleets of new 4 four wheelers, boats. etc. In short, the BP tragedy became the biggest economic boom in recent years for southern La, MS and SE Texas, especially for government agencies.
You pick a bad example. My aunt lives in Pass Christian, just across US 90 from the beach. She lost her home and business, and my uncle, who died when Katrina hit.
I spent the next five years helping family get back on their feet. Governments there didn't do any better than the residents - some got way too little, some got barely enough, and a few milked the system - and I'm talking about businesses, government agencies, and plain old everyday citizens.
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Did they live in a condo in Pass Christian?
My mom lost her place there to Katrina.
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I just want to say after reading the first four pages of this thread, my adult Attention Deficit Disorder has been well satisfied.
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I just want to say after reading the first four pages of this thread, my adult Attention Deficit Disorder has been well satisfied.
" SQUIRREL " :laugh:
Dusty
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https://gearheadgrrrl.com/2016/08/18/is-the-epa-protectionist/
Compared to VW Group, HOG(NYSE) got off easy!
How about Toyota? The government couldn't even prove their case against them. Toyota paid the fine so the could end the conflict quickly and move on. I guess that they're accustomed to dealing with crooked governments...
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So we talk about VW HD and Toyota cheating, and you conclude the government is crooked? Go back to sleep.
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So we talk about VW HD and Toyota cheating, and you conclude the government is crooked? Go back to sleep.
:shocked:
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Is that actually true? I was under the perhaps mistaken impression some government agencies, like the EPA are handed the responsibility of creating the standards they are enforcing, so they're a step removed from Congress.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a bit of hippie/greenie from a "let's all do our part standpoint" but I think in same breath that the EPA regularly oversteps their bounds with no checks or balance.
You raise a good point - there are any number of areas where the legislation establishes a framework for regulations and standards, but leaves the specifics to the administration. However, Congress has many times stepped in to add specifics where they felt various agencies were becoming too loose or too aggressive in their actions. EPA is subject to many such added controls, as is the BLM, as is Wildlife Protection Act enforcement, and so on. The check and balance exists, and works as well as anything in our current government (where is that emoji for rolling on the ground cackling wildly?)
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well said IT
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How about Toyota? The government couldn't even prove their case against them. Toyota paid the fine so the could end the conflict quickly and move on. I guess that they're accustomed to dealing with crooked governments...
Shakedown ? ?
Almost everyday I notice the enormous fines and penalties companies large and small imposed by the gov't. Whether deserved or not.
Again, it is often easier to just to pay any fines rather than years of litigation.
Big money.
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It's all (insert name of choice here) fault :rolleyes: Let's do be careful here .
Dusty
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So we talk about VW HD and Toyota cheating, and you conclude the government is crooked? Go back to sleep.
I don't know about that...the government has a great deal invested in GM and MOPAR. Seems they're sending a message to the competition to me.
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I wonder of HD didn't give enough money to the political parties so they got "raided" ;)
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Did they live in a condo in Pass Christian?
My mom lost her place there to Katrina.
No, they had a big 1860 plantation house (on the Register of Historic Places) that they were running as a bed and breakfast - you can still find references to Harbour Oaks Inn in Pass Christian. It was three and a half stories tall, and was on the ridge just up from the beach and across US-90 - about 100 yards from the water, and the ground was maybe 15 feet above sea level.
The storm surge was marked on the live oaks next to where the building had been, 53 feet up. Afterwards, the highest thing left was the concrete platform the front steps had been on.
Government agencies could have been more helpful, certainly - but at least they tried. The insurance companies ran like dogs.
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No, they had a big 1860 plantation house (on the Register of Historic Places) that they were running as a bed and breakfast - you can still find references to Harbour Oaks Inn in Pass Christian. It was three and a half stories tall, and was on the ridge just up from the beach and across US-90 - about 100 yards from the water, and the ground was maybe 15 feet above sea level.
The storm surge was marked on the live oaks next to where the building had been, 53 feet up. Afterwards, the highest thing left was the concrete platform the front steps had been on.
Government agencies could have been more helpful, certainly - but at least they tried. The insurance companies ran like dogs.
How in the world did that house survive Camille in '69? When Camille hit Pass Christian, the winds were coming onshore at 200 MPH and the storm surge wave were breaking over the electric lines a quarter of a mile inland .... ?
It's the 47th anniversary here in Virginia (August 19th) of when the tropical depression remains of Hurricane Camille sneaked over the Blue Ridge, met an August cold front, and dumped 40 inches of rain in 6 hours on top of the ridge, washing away half of Nelson County and killing 110 people. That was a bad time ....
Lannis
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We just had the anniversary memorial for the folks who died in the landslide that took out a subdivision last summer. Nature is still in charge, and I think she's getting pissed.
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How in the world did that house survive Camille in '69? When Camille hit Pass Christian, the winds were coming onshore at 200 MPH and the storm surge wave were breaking over the electric lines a quarter of a mile inland .... ?
Camille came ashore with the eye about 1/4 - 1/2 mile to the east of our place - so the winds to the west of the eye came from onshore, not from the water. To the east of the eye, the winds come from the water and are stronger. Back then, the stuff between downtown Pass Christian and Biloxi got the big surge, with the stretch from downtown Pass to Gulfport hit the hardest.
With Katrina, the eye came just about dead center up through the entry to the waters of Bay St Louis, between the town of that name and Pass Christian, west of my family's place. This time, the house was on the east side of the eye and took the brunt - as the part of the Pass further to the east had done during Camille. Once again, the surge carried inland - this time all the way to the railway tracks and beyond. In some areas it reached I-10, although by then it was much diminished, down to a 5-10 foot wave.
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Camille came ashore with the eye about 1/4 - 1/2 mile to the east of our place - so the winds to the west of the eye came from onshore, not from the water. To the east of the eye, the winds come from the water and are stronger. Back then, the stuff between downtown Pass Christian and Biloxi got the big surge, with the stretch from downtown Pass to Gulfport hit the hardest.
With Katrina, the eye came just about dead center up through the entry to the waters of Bay St Louis, between the town of that name and Pass Christian, west of my family's place. This time, the house was on the east side of the eye and took the brunt - as the part of the Pass further to the east had done during Camille. Once again, the surge carried inland - this time all the way to the railway tracks and beyond. In some areas it reached I-10, although by then it was much diminished, down to a 5-10 foot wave.
Tough town. I might think about moving!
Lannis
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Below is a photo of the tidal surge from Katrina. Over 35' high, it crushed everything in it's path. The November after the storm, I saw a dead horse still in the upper limbs of a Live Oak tree in Waveland...
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c229/JamesBagley/9878ea0366afc2b4f3b00cdd16ae2686.jpg)
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In southwest Florida's Collier County Hurricane Donna in 1960 pushed water 40 miles inland as far as Imokalee, 30 feet above sea level. Only a couple thousand people lived there then, today 400,000 people live there. The developers are throwing up townhouses and condos like there's no tomorrow that barely meet building code. The county's new Emergency Operations Center is a literal "brick sh-thouse" several miles inland, everything essential is on the 3rd floor or above, and the windows are narrow slits with steel storm covers.
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I just wonder if cheap disposable housing is the way to go. Evacuate and rebuild?
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I just wonder if cheap disposable housing is the way to go. Evacuate and rebuild?
.... Oh never mind , just too easy ...
Dusty
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Congress created the EPA, the EPA creates and enforces the laws through he DoJ.
Totally unconstitutional.
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In southwest Florida's Collier County Hurricane Donna in 1960 pushed water 40 miles inland as far as Imokalee, 30 feet above sea level. Only a couple thousand people lived there then, today 400,000 people live there. The developers are throwing up townhouses and condos like there's no tomorrow that barely meet building code. The county's new Emergency Operations Center is a literal "brick sh-thouse" several miles inland, everything essential is on the 3rd floor or above, and the windows are narrow slits with steel storm covers.
If the developers are not meeting building code, then the local inspectors are also to blame, because the Florida building codes regarding wind loads are quite sturdy. I built my garage meeting those codes, and in a hurricane I'm evacuating to the garage.
Quite frankly, the Federal Government should stop backing flood insurance policy's for new construction as they are no longer a financially sane program. Let the private sector write those policy's and watch this insanity with building on barrier islands, etc. end.
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Quite frankly, the Federal Government should stop backing flood insurance policy's for new construction as they are no longer a financially sane program. Let the private sector write those policy's and watch this insanity with building on barrier islands, etc. end.
Interesting idea. What about on existing property? Pay off, but not allow rebuild? What happens to ownership and maintenance of the empty land, in your plan?
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Interesting idea. What about on existing property? Pay off, but not allow rebuild? What happens to ownership and maintenance of the empty land, in your plan?
In most cases the sea oats will take over , which takes care of the maintenance .
Dusty
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I have never understood while people do not feel the need to assume any risk or responsibility for their choices.. Building under sea level has risks of flooding, if you build at the base of a sandstone wall some day it's going to fall on you.. if you build in the desert it's going to be hot. If you build at the tip of a peninsula or on an ocean island some day a hurricane is going to blow you away. If you build in the center of tornado alley some day a tornado is going to blow at you. You knew this going in.
Foolish should not be a reimbursable expense.
I have never gotten disaster relief in the Dakotas when everything freezes every year. By current beliefs we should get our heating fuel paid for because the weather was cold again this year.. and let's get the federal government to pay for snow removal on our streets..
People need to start taking care of themselves and taking responsibility for their choices.
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Interesting idea. What about on existing property? Pay off, but not allow rebuild? What happens to ownership and maintenance of the empty land, in your plan?
I believe that they have modified the flood insurance policy's to three strikes and your out, as in your on your own after the third wipe out, so either take the money and try to sell the stripped property or rebuild at your own risk, but no more flood insurance from the Feds. I have owned property on the beach and after a couple of hurricanes I said, that is enough and it wasn't because of a flood.
We currently own a home in the old part of this Florida town that is up high and miles back from the barrier island, the Spanish built a fort in the 1500's? in this area as they understood the power of the storms. No flood insurance back then and there shouldn't be any now for making stupid decisions by building on a barrier island, because sooner or later a named storm is going to take your home and it isn't pretty. Then there are the predators who descend on your life called storm chaser's or insurance adjusters.
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Poor old landlocked Oklahoma is looking better all the time ...
Dusty
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Poor old landlocked Oklahoma is looking better all the time ...
Dusty
'cept for all them cyclones y'all get down there.
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'cept for all them cyclones y'all get down there.
Don't forget the earth quakes .
Dusty
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Poor old landlocked Oklahoma is looking better all the time ...
Dusty
I'll put up with a hurricane as I know about where it's coming from and approximately when its going to get here(there are currently two potential problems in the Atlantic) but an earthquake or tornado.....no thanks.
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I'll put up with a hurricane as I know about where it's coming from and approximately when its going to get here(there are currently two potential problems in the Atlantic) but an earthquake or tornado.....no thanks.
I'll remember you said that when the East Coast is getting hammered .
Dusty
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There have been a couple of comments about people not having insurance for hurricanes, or 'exploiting' flood insurance that shouldn't be issued. If you haven't dealt with this, you may not understand the issue fully.
Flood insurance (federally supported) provides coverage only for damage from rising water. It does not cover the damage from storm surge, hurricane force winds, or anything like that - only if the damage is caused by water (in rivers, lakes, ponds, or as a result of rain) that comes upward into the protected property. To make the program affordable and equitable, large pools of participants in widely separated areas of the country are grouped together to calculate premiums, on the basis that floods are very unlikely to occur in multiple geographies at once. The flood insurance program is supposed to run on a break-even basis over the long run, and should not be confused with disaster relief.
Standard, privately issued home and business insurance is supposed to cover hurricane damage (storm surge, winds, falling trees, and so on). It has always done so (till recently, keep reading). Private issuers can (and do) set rates not by pooling and averaging risk, but by risk history for very specific and relatively small areas - think zip code size or less. Hurricane insurance has already become prohibitively expensive in many areas of Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana and Texas. Even people in New Jersey and elsewhere in the northeast are having trouble getting coverage.
Where things get really messy is that the private insurers have now started arguing that wind-driven water (i.e., storm surge, where the water level does not rise, but the water is carried or pushed heavily by the wind) is rising water and they refuse to cover it - saying the flood insurance should. The flood insurance program says (and always has) that wind-driven water is not a flood - from their view, it's more like hail damage (wind-driven water and ice). Home and business owners on high land that has never flooded in recorded history are being told by their private insurer that they should have had flood insurance and claim against it - where up until recent years, the claim was always against the private insurer. The flood insurance program says it won't (and isn't even allowed to) cover such damage.
Either way, the person paying the premiums is left holding the bag even with a legitimate claim - and the private insurers say "go ahead - sue me". Hard to pay for a lawyer when you're rebuilding your life with nothing but a deed and a debt...
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"The National Flood Insurance Program was $24 billion in debt at the beginning of 2014 as a result of Hurricanes Katrina, Rita and Sandy."
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I'll remember you said that when the East Coast is getting hammered .
Dusty
I'm OK up to a high 3 or a low 4. After that, I'm out of here because that is a whole other level of weather insanity.
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"The National Flood Insurance Program was $24 billion in debt at the beginning of 2014 as a result of Hurricanes Katrina, Rita and Sandy."
Yup - two things here. One, the program is supposed to run break-even over the (very) long run; there was a period a while back (20-30 years ago) when people were claiming its premiums were too high because it was getting a surplus. A run of events like those of the past decade, particularly storms hitting more highly developed areas, will dramatically skew the situation. Second, while the people on the coast hit by storm surge and hurricane winds won't be claiming against flood insurance, all the people inland affected by rising water from the accompanying heavy rains will. All three storms caused extensive flooding over very wide areas inland.
If one agrees that climate change is occurring (I do, but others may not), the risk of increasing volatility of weather patterns and resulting increased likelihood of major floods puts the program in a very difficult place going forward - something that has been pointed out by its administrators.
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I'm OK up to a high 3 or a low 4. After that, I'm out of here because that is a whole other level of weather insanity.
Remember that old Ron White routine about the guy who tied himself to a tree during a Florida hurricane:
"If you're in a hurricane, it's not that the wind is blowing, it's what the wind is blowing - being tied to a tree ain't gonna help if you're hit by a Volvo!"
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When your new bike comes with a gaping hole where torque belongs, then you change pipes. Doesn't matter which make of bike, you're just going after the renowned Guzzi/BMW/Harley/Ducati torque you're entitled to...
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When your new bike comes with a gaping hole where torque belongs, then you change pipes. Doesn't matter which make of bike, you're just going after the renowned Guzzi/BMW/Harley/Ducati torque you're entitled to...
Guessing you are being facetious ?
Dusty
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Congress created the EPA, the EPA creates and enforces the laws through he DoJ.
Totally unconstitutional.
huh?
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Interesting idea. What about on existing property? Pay off, but not allow rebuild? What happens to ownership and maintenance of the empty land, in your plan?
actually that is Fed Flood Insurance policy in many places. Once the property is destroyed, the owner is paid but the policy is not renewed at the same location. You might look at N Padre Island south of Port A. There are several legacy condos/hotels right against the shore and all the later buildings are probably 250 yards inland.
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actually that is Fed Flood Insurance policy in many places. Once the property is destroyed, the owner is paid but the policy is not renewed at the same location. You might look at N Padre Island south of Port A. There are several legacy condos/hotels right against the shore and all the later buildings are probably 250 yards inland.
Does a force 4 or 5 hurricane care about 250 yards?
Serious question.
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Does a force 4 or 5 hurricane care about 250 yards?
Serious question.
Serious answer , NO . It does somewhat depend on elevation , although along most of the Gulf and East Coasts , 250 yards inland will only be about 5 feet ASL . I worked in Charleston SC after Hugo, and was in Biloxi a couple of years after Camille , the tidal surge does a large portion of the damage , and the tornadoes spun off kind of finish the job .
The Galveston Hurricane in the early 1900's should have taught us a lesson , but ...
Dusty
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Does a force 4 or 5 hurricane care about 250 yards?
Serious question.
No, but the abstract for the property that the insurance was on does.
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Does a force 4 or 5 hurricane care about 250 yards?
Serious question.
All depends on what is in those 250 yards. Some kinds of cover will reduce the impact of storm surge, some won't. One of the things that has made the impact of storms worse over the past few decades is the draining, development and water starvation (i.e., redirection of supporting rivers) of wetlands, particularly in Louisiana. Without these heavily vegetated swamplands, storms sweep further inland with greater damage. Even a small area of barrier island or swamp can break up the storm's worst impact.
And, as atavar said, the property further inland may be classed differently in the insurance tables. My home in San Antonio, very close to a frequently flooded creek, was classed as least risk under flood insurance - a house three lots closer was classed among the most at risk.
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On Padre Island, the subject location Lowryter mentioned, and I responded to, there is no elevation difference, and 250-yards off the shore makes no real difference to any hurricane that hits it.
The fact that code has backed up new development a mere 250 yards from the beach is a bad joke.
I've grown up in The South, and have immediate family who has lived on the coasts of North Carolina, Florida, and Mississippi, so know well the issues of wind, surge, flood, shoreline erosion, and insurance hassles that they have had to deal with. The entire street that my aunt lived on at Ocean Isle North Carolina doesn't exist anymore!
I'll take my chances with the tornadoes here in fly-over country.
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At least with tornadoes you can hide in the basement with bourbon!
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Remember that old Ron White routine about the guy who tied himself to a tree during a Florida hurricane:
"If you're in a hurricane, it's not that the wind is blowing, it's what the wind is blowing - being tied to a tree ain't gonna help if you're hit by a Volvo!"
Hurricane Ivan:
(http://image.al.com/home/bama-media/width960/img/alphotos/photo/2014/09/15/-103912893d233b06.JPG)
We will never know what that poor guy was thinking driving across that I-10 bridge during the hurricane, because he never made it. Wind took him out but maybe he did get hit by a Volvo?
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I have never understood while people do not feel the need to assume any risk or responsibility for their choices..
It seems to me that lots of people don't have a large number of choices. Sure, well-off people that build houses in disaster-prone places because it's a pretty spot deserve what they get. But lots of people live in trailer parks because they were born into relative poverty and have little choice. Yeah, I'm one of those commie Canuckistanis, but we have the same issues here as anywhere. And sometimes, sh*t just happens.
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Still, living in a trailer park is one thing, living in a trailer park where it is known you will suffer multiple tornadoes a season is another thing and somewhat of a choice.
Believe me, I have lived at the bottom of the social spectrum so I know personally the lack of options for the indigent and poverty stricken, but at some point the onus is on the individual to do something about their circumstances.
If they are not going to try then it is not our responsibility to support them, commie or no.
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But lots of people live in trailer parks because they were born into relative poverty and have little choice.
Sure. That's what they like to tell you, anyway.
Lannis (yes, I lived in a trailer for 5 years ...)
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Does a force 4 or 5 hurricane care about 250 yards?
Serious question.
Just know what I was told. Probably a good 20 ft of elevation and the land in between (250 yds was a guess). It was just the answer to why those resorts built in late '60s were on the beach and later ones were built away and you had to walk in path through the brush to get to the beach.
Other places on the Gulf like Ft Walton, didn't seem to be under those restrictions.
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All depends on what is in those 250 yards. Some kinds of cover will reduce the impact of storm surge, some won't. One of the things that has made the impact of storms worse over the past few decades is the draining, development and water starvation (i.e., redirection of supporting rivers) of wetlands, particularly in Louisiana. Without these heavily vegetated swamplands, storms sweep further inland with greater damage. Even a small area of barrier island or swamp can break up the storm's worst impact.
And, as atavar said, the property further inland may be classed differently in the insurance tables. My home in San Antonio, very close to a frequently flooded creek, was classed as least risk under flood insurance - a house three lots closer was classed among the most at risk.
I lived NW of San Antonio for a time. It was surprising after a good rain storm those creeks would flash flood.
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This is all Harley Davidson's fault . By product of entirely too much chrome reflecting the Sun's rays causing beach erosion , floods , hurricanes , tornadoes , hell , maybe us Okies can file a lawsuit and blame our recent rash of earthquakes on the MoCo .
Hmm , that last part actually kind of makes sense , where's my attorney ? :laugh:
Dusty
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It's pretty shocking that Harley was so greedy to take up the aftermarket business by selling non CARB/EPA parts and tunes for their bikes at dealers. I suppose their is no moral difference than the jet kit and pipe on my Bandit but it wasn't a Suzuki product.
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There have been a couple of comments about people not having insurance for hurricanes, or 'exploiting' flood insurance that shouldn't be issued. If you haven't dealt with this, you may not understand the issue fully.
Flood insurance (federally supported) provides coverage only for damage from rising water. It does not cover the damage from storm surge, hurricane force winds, or anything like that - only if the damage is caused by water (in rivers, lakes, ponds, or as a result of rain) that comes upward into the protected property. To make the program affordable and equitable, large pools of participants in widely separated areas of the country are grouped together to calculate premiums, on the basis that floods are very unlikely to occur in multiple geographies at once. The flood insurance program is supposed to run on a break-even basis over the long run, and should not be confused with disaster relief.
Standard, privately issued home and business insurance is supposed to cover hurricane damage (storm surge, winds, falling trees, and so on). It has always done so (till recently, keep reading). Private issuers can (and do) set rates not by pooling and averaging risk, but by risk history for very specific and relatively small areas - think zip code size or less. Hurricane insurance has already become prohibitively expensive in many areas of Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana and Texas. Even people in New Jersey and elsewhere in the northeast are having trouble getting coverage.
Where things get really messy is that the private insurers have now started arguing that wind-driven water (i.e., storm surge, where the water level does not rise, but the water is carried or pushed heavily by the wind) is rising water and they refuse to cover it - saying the flood insurance should. The flood insurance program says (and always has) that wind-driven water is not a flood - from their view, it's more like hail damage (wind-driven water and ice). Home and business owners on high land that has never flooded in recorded history are being told by their private insurer that they should have had flood insurance and claim against it - where up until recent years, the claim was always against the private insurer. The flood insurance program says it won't (and isn't even allowed to) cover such damage.
Either way, the person paying the premiums is left holding the bag even with a legitimate claim - and the private insurers say "go ahead - sue me". Hard to pay for a lawyer when you're rebuilding your life with nothing but a deed and a debt...
Insurance is a ponzi scheme. Nothing more. Nothing less. All major insurers in the world are having major issue right now because no one expected interest rates to remain this low for this long.
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This is all Harley Davidson's fault . By product of entirely too much chrome reflecting the Sun's rays causing beach erosion , floods , hurricanes , tornadoes , hell , maybe us Okies can file a lawsuit and blame our recent rash of earthquakes on the MoCo .
Hmm , that last part actually kind of makes sense , where's my attorney ? :laugh:
Dusty
Nice
(https://www.segwayevents.co.uk/images/cms/merchandise_1_0_large.jpg)
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Yup - two things here. One, the program is supposed to run break-even over the (very) long run; there was a period a while back (20-30 years ago) when people were claiming its premiums were too high because it was getting a surplus. A run of events like those of the past decade, particularly storms hitting more highly developed areas, will dramatically skew the situation. Second, while the people on the coast hit by storm surge and hurricane winds won't be claiming against flood insurance, all the people inland affected by rising water from the accompanying heavy rains will. All three storms caused extensive flooding over very wide areas inland.
If one agrees that climate change is occurring (I do, but others may not), the risk of increasing volatility of weather patterns and resulting increased likelihood of major floods puts the program in a very difficult place going forward - something that has been pointed out by its administrators.
Only the cause of climate change is debatable.
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Only the cause of climate change is debatable.
Well, I doubt that, unless you're just saying you'll put your fingers in your ears if you don't like what you hear.
It's tough getting information. The NextBigFuture site trumpeted today's headline "UCLA physicists discover ‘apparent departure from the laws of thermodynamics’!"
And then the article winds up with "“Of course, this work does not violate the laws of thermodynamics, but it does demonstrate there are still some interesting, potentially useful things to learn about buffer gas cooling....”
Way too much politics involved with "Climate Change" fluffle to take what you hear at face value ....
Lannis
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Well, I doubt that, unless you're just saying you'll put your fingers in your ears if you don't like what you hear.
It's tough getting information. The NextBigFuture site trumpeted today's headline "UCLA physicists discover ‘apparent departure from the laws of thermodynamics’!"
And then the article winds up with "“Of course, this work does not violate the laws of thermodynamics, but it does demonstrate there are still some interesting, potentially useful things to learn about buffer gas cooling....”
Way too much politics involved with "Climate Change" fluffle to take what you hear at face value ....
Lannis
Lannis, so you are saying that nothing in the climate has changed? The earth, solar system and universe is constantly changing. Always will. Rivers will change course. Icepacks will shift. Volcanoes will erupt. Land masses will move, break up and collide. Nothing new there.
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Lannis, so you are saying that nothing in the climate has changed? The earth, solar system and universe is constantly changing. Always will. Rivers will change course. Icepacks will shift. Volcanoes will erupt. Land masses will move, break up and collide. Nothing new there.
Nope, I made a poor assumption upon reading your post. I agree with you.
Lannis
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Nope, I made a poor assumption upon reading your post. I agree with you.
Lannis
Typical old man. LOL
By the way, several of my 'older friends' have welcomed me to the old man's club because of my heart attack. Arseholes! lol
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Typical old man. LOL
No use in denying it .... bruvva .... !
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Lannis (yes, I lived in a trailer for 5 years ...)
Of course you did. I'd have bet good money on it.
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Insurance is a ponzi scheme. Nothing more. Nothing less. All major insurers in the world are having major issue right now because no one expected interest rates to remain this low for this long.
huh?
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Of course you did. I'd have bet good money on it.
It's how long it took me to build my house. Had the well dug, the septic put in, the electric and telephone run back here, and pulled in a 14 x 70 trailer and hooked to it all. Fay and I lived in the trailer with our two boys while we built our house next to it, spending about every spare night and weekend from 1989 to 1994, excavating, laying brick and block, setting beams, wiring, plumbing, hired a man to put on the standing seam roof ... it's a once in a lifetime thing for me, though, never again. When we were done, we disconnected the trailer from the utilities, hooked them to the house, and moved in ...
Paid $21,500 for the trailer, sold it for $14,750 .... that's $112/month, pretty cheap living .... !
Lannis
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Don't forget the earth quakes .
Dusty
You mean those "fraking quakes"?
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You mean those "fraking quakes"?
Well , that is close to what we call them Harv :shocked:
Dusty
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Triumph and Arrow should be crapping their pants right about now. Triumph also sells Triumph branded "Off Road Only" exhausts, wink, wink, nod, nod...
True, but about one set for HD's 100 sets. Small target
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We had friends whose family lived right on the Mississippi Gulf coast, as in a deck over the water. When I asked them about hurricanes their response was, we just rebuild the house. It was all wood and they had no possessions that they could not replace.
They also had a travel trailer that they used when hurricanes threatened. As soon as one formed in the gulf they'd load up the trailer and head north (before the roads got clogged with those who waited too long). Wait until it went away and go back home, if there was one. They rebuilt 3 times. Their parents rebuilt 6 times. No insurance would cover them.
I asked them why they still lived there. He pointed to the fresh seafood on the table he had pulled up that day. He figured all of his "free" meals made up for the cost of the rebuilds.
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You mean those "fraking quakes"?
actually waste water injection quakes.
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Ya'll do know that New Orleans had thousands who moved away (and never came back, New Orleans has less residents than when I was in HS) and that the state instituted many building code reforms in the aftermath of Katrina, right? New Orleans had a plan and great pockets full of assurances from the Corps of Engineers in 2005. Unfortunately, the Corp's 17th Street Canal levee had other ideas.
The entire Mississippi River basin is mostly flat, so when these areas become inundated with water from rain, rising rivers, or storm surge it tends to affect large areas. It happens in Louisiana, but also in places like Iowa and Missouri. Population is the factor that has created huge financial impacts. 80% of the world lives close to the ocean. When tragedy strikes, great numbers of persons are affected because great numbers of persons are around...