Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: oldbike54 on September 11, 2016, 12:44:48 PM
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twowings , (Chris) is experiencing some running problems with his 2007 Norge . Here are the details as we know them . Bike set in a serious rain for a few hours at Gary Scott's camp out . Started and ran fine this morning , Chris traveled about 40 miles , fueled up with 10% ethanol because that was all that was available . Roughly ten miles later , the engine began to run rough , and refuse to run faster than about 45 MPH . The idle is not steady , and the engine will rev to about 4K RPM's with no load . No codes other than the service engine light . He has checked the plug caps for moisture , guessing that isn't the issue , as the bike did start and run fine for several miles . Plugs look normal, pump seems to be running fine , bike has 18K miles , so I doubt if it is a filter problem . He is limping across the road right now to top up with some straight gas in an attempt to dilute the gas already on board in case this is an issue with moisture . Yes I know , bad gas is rare these days , but could this be a fuel problem , or just a coincidence ?
Dusty
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Limped her home by topping off with real gas...won't run faster than 50 mph or 4k rpm...no codes...no check engine light...will start and idle but not too smoothly...reset dashboard and pulled neg battery cable off for 5 mins...no joy...some starts will let it rev but next time starting won't take any throttle w/o bogging badly...hooking up GuzziDiag now...more later
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Dusty, I'd still lean in the direction of bad plug caps. The OEM ones are notorious for failure and owners have to be extra careful removing the caps or they will break the continuity. A second thought: Mark Finkler just had a similar problem with his '15 Norge. It turned out to be a bad relay connection for the fuel pump. His would die and then not re-start....and then later start up just fine.
Peter Y.
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bad gas
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My Norge has run on whatever premium gas (with up to 10% ethanol) just fine for 116,000 miles, but just the other day I got a tankful that was either contaminated or stale - bike ran a bit badly, and mileage went down by 6 mpg, for that tankful. Returned to normal as soon as I put in a fresh tank about 175 miles later (I usually get about 200-240 miles on a tank, but not that one).
Easy enough to drain the tank now that the bike is home, put in some known good fuel, and see what happens. If that doesn't fix it, then it's time for more intense analysis of fuel delivery and spark.
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GuzziDiag shows the erratic idle and the attempts to hold steady idle...bike will start and idle somewhat roughly...won't take throttle every time...sometimes instant response, other times bogs badly...exhaust smells a little funky so played with CO trim but no real change...if left to its own devices bike will idle erratically and eventually die...trying to add throttle usually results in bogging and popping in exhaust...two curious things: 1. when bike started to act up (about 10-15 miles from last fuel stop) the "Service" wrench popped up...I had reset the 'Service Interval' about 800 miles ago when I changed the oil...2. there were no stored ECU codes or Dashboard codes and no 'Check Engine' light...draining fuel tank and going from there...
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HI Chris,
Just a thought...but perhaps one of the hoses at the T-section under the tank where the two hoses join together (post canisterectomy) has come loose or disconnected?
If it's a lumpy idle...wonder if you have a clogged fuel filter perhaps?
Cheers...
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Had something similar on a EV. The prob was the TPS.
Bill
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Can you see the cat on this bike? My Griso behaved like this once - would not rev past 5k, and lumpy idle. turns out the cat was cooked -looked like a big swollen golf ball in the pipe. I think a misfire from the plug caps dumping unburned fuel cooked it.
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Forgot one other curious thing....the indicated Average Fuel Mileage dropped from 43-45 mpg to 10-11 mpg...don't know what this means....yet
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http://www.af1racing.com/store/ProdImages/st3/GU083.pdf (http://www.af1racing.com/store/ProdImages/st3/GU083.pdf)
A lot of these symptoms point to a bad TPS...is there ONE TPS for the Norge? The parts diagram shows a 'Pointiometer' (Item 2) which I'm guessing is the TPS? Or is it Item 18?
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a potentiometer is the TPS..
have you check for a vacuum leak somewhere?
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I would dump the fuel & change fuel filter, take fuel line off manifolds & blow it out. If it shows no errors, it's fuel related.
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I had the same problem on my 07 Norge and I figured out that the gas drain line was clogged and when it rained really hard for a long period of time, I got water in the tank. My solution was fairly easy, because the tank was somewhat low, so I just dumped a can of dry gas in there and filled it up with new gas. Ran just ok for awhile but eventually it was alright after the second tank of new gas.
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https://www.zoro.com/crc-fuel-water-remover-12-oz-05343/i/G0989046/
What's the update Chris...got it sorted yet?
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I would dump the fuel & change fuel filter, take fuel line off manifolds & blow it out. If it shows no errors, it's fuel related.
Change the fuel filter? You really know how to hurt a guy!
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Water in the fuel filter.
Water in the AIR filter.
Bad TPS (Guzzidiag would show this though).
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The saga continues....
1) Removed and emptied fuel tank, refilled with about 1 1/2 gallons real gas and a bottle of HEET for good measure. Inspected air box, plug caps, and spark plugs. No moisture present.
2) Fully charged battery for good measure as it has been used heavily with lots of restarts.
3) Bike would start, run for 10-20 seconds with erratic idle, then die. On some restart attempts, the bike would take some throttle to about 4K rpm then die.
4) After about 5-7 restart attempts, I noticed that the cylinder heads and exhaust pipes seemed to be abnormally hot for the short amount of time the bike was actually running.
5) I began to suspect exhaust blockage and checked the exhaust pulses from the muffler but with the idle so erratic and the difficulty keeping the bike running that was inconclusive.
6) Since I have had a cracked crossover pipe for some time, I decided to take the downtime opportunity to install a new crossover.
7) Removed muffler as first step to replacing crossover and attempted to start bike to check the blockage theory. Bike would not start at all, exhibiting symptoms of no fuel.
8) Have new fuel filter arriving tomorrow for installation and will inspect internal fuel pump at that time.
9) Made arrangements to borrow known good Norge muffler to do A/B comparison to hopefully test blockage theory.
Again, no ECU or dashboard codes and no Check Engine Light or Service Wrench.
Looks like at least the MO-KAN is a no-go for me.
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The saga continues....
1) Removed and emptied fuel tank, refilled with about 1 1/2 gallons real gas and a bottle of HEET for good measure. Inspected air box, plug caps, and spark plugs. No moisture present.
2) Fully charged battery for good measure as it has been used heavily with lots of restarts.
3) Bike would start, run for 10-20 seconds with erratic idle, then die. On some restart attempts, the bike would take some throttle to about 4K rpm then die.
4) After about 5-7 restart attempts, I noticed that the cylinder heads and exhaust pipes seemed to be abnormally hot for the short amount of time the bike was actually running.
5) I began to suspect exhaust blockage and checked the exhaust pulses from the muffler but with the idle so erratic and the difficulty keeping the bike running that was inconclusive.
6) Since I have had a cracked crossover pipe for some time, I decided to take the downtime opportunity to install a new crossover.
7) Removed muffler as first step to replacing crossover and attempted to start bike to check the blockage theory. Bike would not start at all, exhibiting symptoms of no fuel.
8) Have new fuel filter arriving tomorrow for installation and will inspect internal fuel pump at that time.
9) Made arrangements to borrow known good Norge muffler to do A/B comparison to hopefully test blockage theory.
Again, no ECU or dashboard codes and no Check Engine Light or Service Wrench.
Looks like at least the MO-KAN is a no-go for me.
Where is this crack? If it's before the O2 sensor the air ingress will of been playing havoc with the lambda readings. This will of, at the very least, buggered the plugs and possibly the Cat. When it was running slowly it was obviously running on one cylinder but my guess is the injector on the dead side was still dumping fuel in. Even if the Cat was marginal before it will be buggered now. The economy dropped because the firing cylinder was fighting the dead one's compression so you had to use more throttle. This fired yet more fuel into the dead cylinder which then burns in the Cat. Viscious circle.
Regardless of the original cause I'm suspecting your Cat is buggered and clogged and your plugs are most likely history. All four plugs and an uncracked exhaust with a new pipe/Cat and probably a new lambda sensor before you hunt much further. Hope I'm wrong and it's something cheap but I doubt it.
Pete
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Current ECU map does not utilize lamda...
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But if it were the cat the bike should have started with the crossover disconnected. (I'd like to hear that). The Norgi are somewhat well known for cracking the crossover at the weld in the wye.
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Spare muffler on its way up from Houston to Tulsa...hope that helps contribute to the solution. Let me know...
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Thanks again, Paul!
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(http://thumb.ibb.co/go2Yfa/IMG_1183.jpg) (http://ibb.co/go2Yfa)
Could someone please verify that everything in this pic is correctly oriented? Thanks!
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Looks good to me.
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Could someone please verify that everything in this pic is correctly oriented? Thanks!
You are correct, sir!
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At least you don't have the half plastic half metal fuel filter that came from the factory. I would carefully look over every inch of the fuel lines on the fuel pump assembly making sure there is no cracks or holes. When my BMW R1150RT started acting like yours is acting I found a small 1/4 inch cut in one of the hoses. It doesn't take much of a hole in one of the hoses to reduce the fuel pressure enough to stop the bike from running right, or at all.
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(http://thumb.ibb.co/cueFRF/IMG_1189.jpg) (http://ibb.co/cueFRF)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/f7Ldfa/IMG_1190.jpg) (http://ibb.co/f7Ldfa)
Problem resolved.