Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Cool Runnings on September 30, 2016, 08:15:02 AM
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Which one moves yer soul more?
How did BMW get all that hp out of the new boxer twin?
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I was an Airhead lover for years, but BMW lost me with their offerings of the last twenty years. My two-valve big block is now the owner of my motorcycling heart...and likely to hold that job for quite a while.
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Which one moves yer soul more?
How did BMW get all that hp out of the new boxer twin?
Neither
RPMs
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Which one moves yer soul more?
How did BMW get all that hp out of the new boxer twin?
Both , for different reasons .
As for the HP question , modern combustion chambers , modern bore/stroke ratios , good cam profiles , etc .
Dusty
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Which one moves yer soul more?
How did BMW get all that hp out of the new boxer twin?
My buddy has a '15 GS 1200 and we swapped bikes for a run down Wolf Pen Gap. The GS supposedly has 10 more hp than my Griso but if it's there I never found it. It's smooth and free reving but it doesn't instill any emotional response like the rollered 8V.
His motor just detonated by the way. Luckily it was under warranty.
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When I was wrenching at a Guzzi/BMW shop in IL in 1990 the owner wanted me to talk to a customer about what he should buy. As he watched me I said "What do you want? A quarter of a V8 or a half of a Volkswagen motor." Shop owner was pissed. Hey, it is what it is.
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The made me laugh!!, Great answer Steve!
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When I was wrenching at a Guzzi/BMW shop in IL in 1990 the owner wanted me to talk to a customer about what he should buy. As he watched me I said "What do you want? A quarter of a V8 or a half of a Volkswagen motor." Shop owner was pissed. Hey, it is what it is.
This is my first guzzi after twenty some other bikes and the first thing I thought of when I ran up the motor was "sounds like 1/4 of a small block Chevy". IMHO a BMW sounds like a BMW.....its o.k. but doesnt strike me......I really enjoy my Jackal and I will own another Guzzi.....none of the Beemers are calling my name...at least at this point...
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I have both.....the BMW does chew up miles nicely......but the Guzzi has more attitude.
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The Guzzi definitely has more character, but my 2015 GS has 116 BHP (at the rear wheel) and loves to chew up highway miles and will climb steep gravel fire roads with ease. FWIW, I never liked the older boxers that much, but the new water cooled versions are very nice engines... And I think the water cooling has something to do with the ability to extract more HP/Liter. Exhaust note cannot compare to the Guzzi though.
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Cal 3 sums it up perfectly. I sold an R1150 to buy my Morge. The BNW was slightly better in ride and handling but had no mechanical character at all. It was smooth to the point of offering no involvement to the rider. I think the Guzzi's build quality might even be a bit higher.
I still have my old R75/5 that has a lot of character, but that really isn't a direct comparison.
Greg
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Yer kidding, right? :cool: :smiley:
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I tried R Nine T last year I think. Very balanced bike. Center of gravity is much lower on flat-twin. For me it felt feather light...
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I tried R Nine T last year I think. Very balanced bike. Center of gravity is much lower on flat-twin. For me it felt feather light...
I find that ironic because I remember how relatively heavy my R1100RS felt compared to my actually heavier but lower center of gravity Harley Road King.
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Which one moves yer soul more?
How did BMW get all that hp out of the new boxer twin?
You ask this in a Guzzi Forum? :popcorn:
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You ask this in a Guzzi Forum? :popcorn:
Lots of Beemer guys here also , like me . Just don't tell Chuckie , great guy , but it seems his days on Ducatis have scrambled his brains a bit :evil:
Dusty
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It's amazing to me that the human ear can pick the subtle differences in the firing intervals of the 360 deg BMW and that of the Guzzi even at higher revs. I wonder if my Norge had individual crank pins and a re phased crank so that it had the same intervals as the Beemer, would I like it as much ? I think not. Given that the BMW has the same firing intervals as a CB 200 Honda etc.... How could it sound like anything other than a parallel twin with it's inherent " blandness", although while typing it occurred to me that I didn't feel that way about old Triumph Bonnies. I swear my mates R 1100 S sounds like it revs higher at 100 k's than my Norge but they're near as dammit to the same. BTW my 07 Norge will JUST beat his beautifully maintained BMW from 80 to 190 in a top gear roll on or "any gear you like" drag, does that surprise ? It did me.
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It's amazing to me that the human ear can pick the subtle differences in the firing intervals of the 360 deg BMW and that of the Guzzi even at higher revs.
I'm always amazed at that too, Huzo. When I'm out on my bicycle, I can easily tell the V-twin Briggs and Stratton rider mowers from the others, too. I have one here, and it's a 90 degree V twin with a single crank pin.
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I have both.....the BMW does chew up miles nicely......but the Guzzi has more attitude.
I have owned 5 Guzzi's and 4 airhead Beemers - - and agree with Cal3...but I would add the Guzzi's have more "soul" :thumb: :cool: :1:
This was my last Beemer, '78 R100RS "Motorsport Edition"...and it was a good bike... :1: :thumb: :cool:
(http://thumb.ibb.co/hN2u3v/1978_BMW_R100_RS_020.jpg) (http://ibb.co/hN2u3v)
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It's amazing to me that the human ear can pick the subtle differences in the firing intervals of the 360 deg BMW and that of the Guzzi even at higher revs. I wonder if my Norge had individual crank pins and a re phased crank so that it had the same intervals as the Beemer, would I like it as much ? I think not. Given that the BMW has the same firing intervals as a CB 200 Honda etc.... How could it sound like anything other than a parallel twin with it's inherent " blandness", although while typing it occurred to me that I didn't feel that way about old Triumph Bonnies.
All Meriden and a large number of Hinckley Bonnevilles have 360 degree engines. BMW 247 engines and Honda 200s have 180 degree engines. The difference in the exhaust report is unmistakeable...
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Ninja 250 and 300 also have 180 degree cranks. It makes them sound like Hondas, at least up to about 10,000 RPM. Since the redline is at 14,000, they sort of run out of the Honda sound up there. :laugh:
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Well the /2 was my favorite, until I discovered the incredible braking power of the V700....!
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I rode a Beemer. Once.
I bought a Moto Guzzi after one ride.
Does that answer the question?
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I had my second beemer (I'm a slow learner) :evil: :smiley: when I first rode a Guzzi. <shrug> Never have looked back. I'm on number 13 now, small blocks, big blocks, 2V, 4V. Loved every one of them.
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One of my riding buddies has a R1200r it always sounded like a sewing machine with the stock exhaust, like most beemers do to me. He paid close to $1000.00 for an Akrapovic slip on and it still didn't sound as nice as my 2 valve 07 Norge. And while I have grown to accept the somewhat wimpy sound of my Norge,I often wish my Norge could sound more like my stock 03 EV without putting money into it. But honestly , I still really like the deep throaty sound when I grab a hand full of throttle of my 1979 Yamaha XS 750 Special with stock exhaust and K&N air cleaners , to each his own.
Never had a Beemer, never really wanted one.
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I have owned 5 Guzzi's and 4 airhead Beemers - - and agree with Cal3...but I would add the Guzzi's have more "soul" :thumb: :cool: :1:
This was my last Beemer, '78 R100RS "Motorsport Edition"...and it was a good bike... :1: :thumb: :cool:
(http://thumb.ibb.co/hN2u3v/1978_BMW_R100_RS_020.jpg) (http://ibb.co/hN2u3v)
Iam with ya.....interesting too.....both of these bikes are an "acquired taste" and once you have it......its hard to shake it.....
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I have owned 5 Guzzi's and 4 airhead Beemers - - and agree with Cal3...but I would add the Guzzi's have more "soul" :thumb: :cool: :1:
This was my last Beemer, '78 R100RS "Motorsport Edition"...and it was a good bike... :1: :thumb: :cool:
(http://thumb.ibb.co/hN2u3v/1978_BMW_R100_RS_020.jpg) (http://ibb.co/hN2u3v)
That's certainly a handsome bike.
BMWs have a quiet, understated, charm. I've enjoyed every boxer twin I've ridden, and sometimes even miss my old R1100R. If I didn't have a Guzzi I'd surely still own one. Nice bikes--they just aren't as engaging, in a very visceral way, compared to their Italian cousin.
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All Meriden and a large number of Hinckley Bonnevilles have 360 degree engines. BMW 247 engines and Honda 200s have 180 degree engines. The difference in the exhaust report is unmistakeable...
Actually the Honda 200 (twin) has a 360 degree engine same as the as does their 175cc and 160cc twins that preceeded them.
The 305 Dream engine is also a 360 degree twin.
The 305 Scrambler and Superhawk engines are 180 degree.
The 350, 360, 450, and 500 twins are all 180 degree as well.
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I was riding a 650 Yamaha and bought a 71 Eldorado.... Been riding em every since. Have swaped rides with Bemmer buddies and a few Harlies and other assorted 2 wheelers. Still riding em. Oh... that Eldo was in 81 - a ten year old bide at that time. :grin:
Mostly it is the estectics and character of the design, along with the fact that they are few and far between... and that there are characters like you on them. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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DRDWB, your XS 750 might sound nice but it can't sound like a Guzzi or airhead Beemer. After all, it has three cylinders.
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Put more miles on my BMW RT than on any other bike. Most smiles per mile was the Sport 1100, followed/tied by the Duc ST4s. The RT was the least soul moving of any bike I've had.
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I've had beemers ever since 1990, mostly the airheads from 70 to 95. But I did venture into the newer style with a 1999 R1100S - the sport version. As already mentioned, the newer BMWs are good bikes, tools for the job. Refrigerators are nice to have, but how attached do you get to one of them? The older BMWs have much more soul than the newer ones. The newer ones are also more expensive to keep up and more delicate.
When I got the Guzzi this summer (T3 with SS exhaust) I thought it was as loud as a Harley with straight pipes. I'm so used to how quiet the beemer is, the Guzzi just seemed way loud. Funny thing, though, is my neighbor (without any lead in) originated how quite the bike is. My GF said the same thing. And I was at a stop light and the guy in the PU next to me gave me the thumbs up and mentioned how quite it was.
So I guess it's me.
I don't know how many of you have seen this, but I think it's spot on:
BMWs are like the Hot German Scientist chick. Glasses, prim, mannered, efficient. She can solve quadratic equations while kicking your ass with kung-fu moves. You have to approach her on her terms and then she will bring you ecstasy in the most efficient manner possible using techniques she learned from an ancient Kama Sutra she discovered on a sabbatical in India.
Guzzis on the other hand, are the art school wild child. long, wind-tossed hair and mischievous winks. She will redecorate your house into a turkish harem while you are away on a business trip and greet you with absinthe tainted kisses. You will go out for pizza with her and wind up somewhere in the Mojave, tequila drunk and shooting cactus with a stolen pistol.
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One of my riding buddies has a R1200r it always sounded like a sewing machine with the stock exhaust, like most beemers do to me. He paid close to $1000.00 for an Akrapovic slip on and it still didn't sound as nice as my 2 valve 07 Norge. And while I have grown to accept the somewhat wimpy sound of my Norge,I often wish my Norge could sound more like my stock 03 EV without putting money into it. But honestly , I still really like the deep throaty sound when I grab a hand full of throttle of my 1979 Yamaha XS 750 Special with stock exhaust and K&N air cleaners , to each his own.
Never had a Beemer, never really wanted one.
I have a 78 XS750 Triple, and it is a nice motor especially down low, and has a surprising growl that is somewhat 'Guzzish' *if memory serves it is in storage*. I've also had a 79XS1100 since 1984. Put 127K miles on it, never opened the case, checked valves once, bike is almost all stock. Had many bikes over the years, a couple BMW's, but mostly Japanese inline 4's. My XS11 is like part of my soul, and in all the years and bikes since, only the Griso has made such a connection.
Am a recent convert to Guzzi, traded my FJR for a Griso because I had been riding so little, was bored with teh FJR, and thought I was 'over riding' so I figured I would downsize get a fun fair weather day trip bike. I saw the Griso on CL rode it and bought it, done deal.... Within a month I was riding so much and the 'LOVE" was back I knew I needed another ST, so went and bought my Norge. I think I have ridden over 8000 miles since April........... Like any motorcycle enthusiast, I knew about Guzzi, admired Guzzi, but never had the chance, time or opportunity to see, sit on, nevermind ride a Guzzi until that Griso test ride. It took a little time to adjust to the drop in power over the FJR, but the rest of the experience is unparallelled IMO.
Now when it comes to BMW, I've tried them all, and other than the 1000RR series, just always felt blaaaaa..... too cold, no passion, or character. Better than a Honda, and not 'soulless', just a boring polished refined 3 piece business suit and wingtips soul.
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The RT was the least soul moving of any bike I've had.
<shrug> I rest my case, Dusty.. :evil: :smiley:
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Put more miles on my BMW RT than on any other bike. Most smiles per mile was the Sport 1100, followed/tied by the Duc ST4s. The RT was the least soul moving of any bike I've had.
<shrug> I rest my case, Dusty.. :evil: :smiley:
Except for some reason Nic put the most miles on that boring RT :evil:
Dusty
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I've had beemers ever since 1990, mostly the airheads from 70 to 95. But I did venture into the newer style with a 1999 R1100S - the sport version. As already mentioned, the newer BMWs are good bikes, tools for the job. Refrigerators are nice to have, but how attached do you get to one of them? The older BMWs have much more soul than the newer ones. The newer ones are also more expensive to keep up and more delicate.
When I got the Guzzi this summer (T3 with SS exhaust) I thought it was as loud as a Harley with straight pipes. I'm so used to how quiet the beemer is, the Guzzi just seemed way loud. Funny thing, though, is my neighbor (without any lead in) originated how quite the bike is. My GF said the same thing. And I was at a stop light and the guy in the PU next to me gave me the thumbs up and mentioned how quite it was.
So I guess it's me.
I don't know how many of you have seen this, but I think it's spot on:
BMWs are like the Hot German Scientist chick. Glasses, prim, mannered, efficient. She can solve quadratic equations while kicking your ass with kung-fu moves. You have to approach her on her terms and then she will bring you ecstasy in the most efficient manner possible using techniques she learned from an ancient Kama Sutra she discovered on a sabbatical in India.
Guzzis on the other hand, are the art school wild child. long, wind-tossed hair and mischievous winks. She will redecorate your house into a turkish harem while you are away on a business trip and greet you with absinthe tainted kisses. You will go out for pizza with her and wind up somewhere in the Mojave, tequila drunk and shooting cactus with a stolen pistol.
Hope to hear more from you.
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The Norge 8V is a narcissist dream come true. All kinds of people smile and wave at me when riding (not just other bikers). I've never experienced this kind of admiration while on a scoot. I'm absolutely in love with this bike.
The only thing it's lacking is cruise control.
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Good comments at this thread too.
http://www.realclassic.co.uk/bmw_r90_moto_guzzi_850t3_comparison.html
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic002/Mine-and-Yours-Shotglasses_4870-l_zpsdxnhn07w.jpg)
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Unquestionably, people preferred the Moto Guzzi T3 to a BMW /6 Boxer. 66% voted for the Italian; almost twice as many as chose the BMW.
<shrug>
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Quote from Cool Runnings:
The Norge 8V is a narcissist dream come true. All kinds of people smile and wave at me when riding (not just other bikers). I've never experienced this kind of admiration while on a scoot. I'm absolutely in love with this bike.
The only thing it's lacking is cruise control.
:1: Especially in Kansas.
GliderJohn
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The Norge 8V is a narcissist dream come true. All kinds of people smile and wave at me when riding (not just other bikers). I've never experienced this kind of admiration while on a scoot. I'm absolutely in love with this bike.
The only thing it's lacking is cruise control.
Maybe a Narcissist's fantasy too?? :drool: :drool: IMO the Norge is virtually Invisible and blends as a generic ST ride. Beautiful and unique, but hardly an attention getter. The GRiSO is another story. Perhaps a regional or color thing?
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Yea, my T-3 gets way more attention than the Norge. And when the Norge does get attention it is Usually "nice BMW". :angry:
GliderJohn
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Yea, my T-3 gets way more attention than the Norge. And when the Norge does get attention it is Usually "nice BMW". :angry:
GliderJohn
Actually, my red 07 Norge seemed to be more of an attention getter than most of the bikes I've had.. for whatever reason. Doesn't matter a bit to me. I ride what I like. :smiley:
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Except for some reason Nic put the most miles on that boring RT :evil:
Dusty
Riding is better than driving whenever possible. The RT was the go-to bike for long trips, for below freezing, and when the rain could be bad. Very useful and I enjoyed it. But you were asking for a comparison with a Guzzi..that's a high bar. I love the v-twins pulse and roar. I don't know about soul, they're all machines, but the RT was sort of surgical rather than sensual.
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Riding is better than driving whenever possible. The RT was the go-to bike for long trips, for below freezing, and when the rain could be bad. Very useful and I enjoyed it. But you were asking for a comparison with a Guzzi..that's a high bar. I love the v-twins pulse and roar. I don't know about soul, they're all machines, but the RT was sort of surgical rather than sensual.
Nic , they both have their place . I've ridden both a lot of miles , and truly enjoyed both experiences.
Dusty
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(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag65/guzzistajohn/tits_zps6c0c30c8.jpg)
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/545604_3233248368627_1880256718_n_zps0c12fb06.jpg)
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LoL :boozing:
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I like the R90S and the R100RT. Both because of the body work.
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I've gotten compliments on other bikes, but nothing like this Black 77 T3 with SS pipes and the black V7S tank. This is my first Guzzi (not counting the basket case I got two years ago) and haven't ridden the other bikes (beemers - R100 GSPD, RS, R65LS etc) since I got it earlier this summer. I wish I'd had a test ride years ago. :sad:
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Another flat twin. Met this rig at Costco last week, ridden by the guy in the blue shirt who admired the Mille and said he had a Le Mans I when he lived in Paris. Note two weeks of groceries in the hack.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/fZFp3v/Ural_Rig.jpg) (http://ibb.co/fZFp3v)
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Actually, my red 07 Norge seemed to be more of an attention getter than most of the bikes I've had.. for whatever reason. Doesn't matter a bit to me. I ride what I like. :smiley:
Yeah Chuck, mine's a red '07 and I reckon you're right. Only my MV Agusta F4 got the same type of responses but I reckon they're all good if you love them. Although I'm more of a fan of mine since I did the wire wheels.
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Ninja 250 and 300 also have 180 degree cranks. It makes them sound like Hondas, at least up to about 10,000 RPM. Since the redline is at 14,000, they sort of run out of the Honda sound up there. :laugh:
Is that right about the old CB 200 having 180 deg crank throws? Does the give an off beat idle due to what would be un in even firing interval ?
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Is that right about the old CB 200 having 180 deg crank throws? Does the give an off beat idle due to what would be un in even firing interval ?
No, see my previous post (reply #27) in this thread.
CB200 has a 360 degree crank, just like the CB175 and CB160 that preceded it. All of the under 200cc parallel twins of the 60's had 360 degree cranks, as did the 250cc and 305cc Dreams (C77, CA77).
Honda models of the era with 180 cranks:
CB72 (250 Hawk)
CL72 (250 Scrambler)
CB77 (305 Super Hawk)
CL77 (305 Scrambler)
All of their parallel twins 325cc and larger (CB350, CL350, CB360, CL360, CB450, CL450, CB500T).
Later Hondas with a 360 crank include the 250 Nighthawk, and 250 Rebel. I'm not sure about the 400 Hawk and 450cc versions of the Nighthawk and Rebel, but, if any of them have a single carb, then, they've got 360 cranks.
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JAS67: it took me a while to find it, but I finally did...and you are correct about the smaller Honda Twins (embarrassing, as I had a '67 CB-160). Dumb assumption, as usual; I knew the 350 through 500 twins were 180s and figured it carried into the smaller twins. One thing is for sure: my CB-160 didn't sound anything like a Bonneville...
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Did those old 180 cranks have evenly spaced firing intervals ? I can understand in a two stroke with a power pulse every 180 deg, but how did they do it with a four stroke given that there is an exhaust stroke every second one ?
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....I don't know about soul, they're all machines, but the RT (BMW) was sort of surgical rather than sensual.
A good way of stating the difference.
I rode a '12 Stelvio for three years (32K Miles) and enjoyed it thoroughly. However, it was feeling a bit heavy when loaded (I'm getting weaker) and I didn't want to drop it. I sold it and about a year ago bought an '07 R1200R, since it is 100# lighter. This is my fifth Beemer, previously owned were R100RT, R1100RT, K75T, K1100LT.
I've now got 10K miles on this latest bike. It's smooth and quiet and doesn't give the mechanical vibes through the h'bars like the Stevio. It is more like riding a sewing machine. However, for my riding needs (long distance touring and camping trips), it is more than adequate. I fitted the Rostra Electronic Cruise Control from the Stelvio to this bike, so long trips on the I-States or high speed two-lane roads are very relaxing.
Unfortunately, Guzzi does not have a bike that is lighter than the Stelvio and fits my riding needs. My body is not comfortable in the cruiser bike riding position and the V7 and V7II are just too small.
Ride safe.
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Did those old 180 cranks have evenly spaced firing intervals ? I can understand in a two stroke with a power pulse every 180 deg, but how did they do it with a four stroke given that there is an exhaust stroke every second one ?
Both pistons reach TDC at the same time, and the engine alternates which one fires at each TDC, so one fires each 360 degrees of crankshaft rotation.
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Both pistons reach TDC at the same time, and the engine alternates which one fires at each TDC, so one fires each 360 degrees of crankshaft rotation.
Uh Jim , you might want to rethink that :laugh:
Dusty
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I don't need to, as long as you know I thought Huzo was asking about a BMW, which interestingly has a 180 degree crank and even firing. :shocked:
Huzo, the 180 degree parallel twins fire very unevenly, 180 then 540, etc.. That's the way my Ninja 250 fires. dit-dit..........dit-dit...........dit-dit........
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I don't need to, as long as you know I thought Huzo was asking about a BMW, which interestingly has a 180 degree crank and even firing. :shocked:
Huzo, the 180 degree parallel twins fire very unevenly, 180 then 540, etc.. That's the way my Ninja 250 fires. dit-dit..........dit-dit...........dit-dit........
I may have missed something , technically a boxer motor is a a 180 degree twin with a crankshaft that effectively mimics a 360 degree twin because both pistons move in and out together . Different from a 180 degree vertical twin . I think Huzo was referring to a vert twin with a 180 degree crank .
Dusty
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I may have missed something , technically a boxer motor is a a 180 degree twin with a crankshaft that effectively mimics a 360 degree twin because both pistons move in and out together . Different from a 180 degree vertical twin . I think Huzo was referring to a vert twin with a 180 degree crank .
Dusty
Now that's not how one boxes :boxing:
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No....but Boxing day is just around the corner. :grin:
http://ukbankholidaydates.co.uk/boxing-day/
http://www.timeanddate.com/holidays/canada/boxing-day
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Did those old 180 cranks have evenly spaced firing intervals ? I can understand in a two stroke with a power pulse every 180 deg, but how did they do it with a four stroke given that there is an exhaust stroke every second one ?
No, the 180 crank four strokes do not have evenly spaced firing intervals. They're more like:
++------++------++------++------
vs the 360 crank motor's:
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---
So, they're actually more uneven than a 90 degree V like a Guzzi
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Now that Dusty, jas67 and I have all said the same thing, it's starting to sound like we think Huzo needs special attention. :laugh:
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Now that Dusty, jas67 and I have all said the same thing, it's starting to sound like we think Huzo needs special attention. :laugh:
He does , he does :laugh: Seriously , I was just trying to clarify the concept . Huzo is a smart guy , it was probably me who was confused :rolleyes:
Now let's discuss the engineering principals behind Twingles :shocked: :grin:
Dusty
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Way too much time on my hands when I made these 4 powerpoint slides (converted to jpg) Hopefully, it'll run in slideshow mode when you open it.
http://s115.photobucket.com/user/bcgilligan/slideshow/BMW%20Crankshaft?sort=3
Bob
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Most of the Beemers I've ridden have been boring and mediocre performers.
The Guzzis are engaging and have a little kick in the pants when your rev them.
But the new water boxers have moved the Beemers into another level of performance. There's no Guzzi offered now that offers the excitement and power. Perhaps it will change if we get a 1400 sport tourer? But not now.
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Bought my first Airhead last fall. R75/6. Never owned or ridden one before. Gave it a top end restore this past winter and have been riding it pretty regularly. I really like the bike but I think I agree that Guzzis have more soul and sound better. The Airhead has very nice torque and is much smoother than a Guzzi. Very capable machine. Oozes quality.
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tpeever, that sounds a lot like the way I feel about an R75/5 a friend of mine got not long ago.
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Now that Dusty, jas67 and I have all said the same thing, it's starting to sound like we think Huzo needs special attention. :laugh:
Yep it's just possible you're right Triple Jim, the truth is I was referring to vertical twins and instead of starting a bun fight which I seem to do all to readily in certain company.... I thought I'd phrase my query as a question. See here's the thing, anyone who tells me that a parallel twin has a 180 deg crank had better accept the fact that when one piston is at tdc the other is at bdc and if you plot the intervals out on a straight line as was just done before this post, the offbeat pulses are apparent. I'm just not sure everyone here was on the same page. Thanks for the compliment Dusty, but a bit of "special attention" never goes astray.
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Ha, well, I think the confusion came when I thought you were asking about the 180 degree crankshaft of a BMW. Then after Dusty's post, I realized you were asking about parallel twins.
Interestingly, they are still around in numbers. All the Ninja twins are 180 degree cranks, as far as I can tell. My 250 is, as is the 500 and 650. My assumption is that if you want to rev really fast, it's better to have the pistons traveling opposite each other for balance, than having them going up and down together, essentially one big single, as far as balance. My 250's redline is at 14,000 rpm, and at that speed no one could possibly tell what the firing intervals are. :grin:
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No, the 180 crank four strokes do not have evenly spaced firing intervals. They're more like:
++------++------++------++------
vs the 360 crank motor's:
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---
So, they're actually more uneven than a 90 degree V like a Guzzi
Yeah Jas 67, that's what I'm talkin' about, but here's one I don't know, why do you think they would do a 180 deg crank on a vertical 4 stroke twin in the first place and I'm not saying they didn't. What would be the perceived benefit over a 360 deg crank where both are at tdc at the same time ? I've heard the b.s. about v twins have more torque than comparable parallel twins of the same bore/ stroke but isn't each cylinder independent of the other and just contributing it's own share of the available torque, and doesn't "know" what the other is doing, I'm wondering if you got a torquey v twin and managed to re arrange the cylinders so they fired 360 deg apart, what do you reckon the new max torque figure would be ? Just asking out of interest, but would love to hear an informed (or otherwise) opinion. Huzo.
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Ha, well, I think the confusion came when I thought you were asking about the 180 degree crankshaft of a BMW. Then after Dusty's post, I realized you were asking about parallel twins.
Interestingly, they are still around in numbers. All the Ninja twins are 180 degree cranks, as far as I can tell. My 250 is, as is the 500 and 650. My assumption is that if you want to rev really fast, it's better to have the pistons traveling opposite each other for balance, than having them going up and down together, essentially one big single, as far as balance. My 250's redline is at 14,000 rpm, and at that speed no one could possibly tell what the firing intervals are. :grin:
No worries triple Jim, this is a damn good thread, I love it !!!
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So it wasn't me who was confused ???? Hell , that might be a first :shocked: :laugh:
Dusty
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Take heart oh Dusty one....I'm confused as to who was confused !!? How about we talk about bikes !
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V-2 & 270° tvin & crossplane do not have all pistons at end of stroke at same time.
Therefore they have less internal loss of power, I think...:-) :boozing:
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The main problem with all the pistons reaching TDC and BTC at the same time is rotational vibration. When all the pistons are coming to a stop, the crankshaft gets sped up a little, and when it speeds them up again, it gets an opposite rotational force that slows it down a little, so rotation isn't quite smooth.
Most inline 4-cylinder engines have crankshafts that start and stop all the pistons at the same time too, with the "crossplane" crankshaft type avoiding it, but getting uneven firing instead.
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Yeah Jas 67, that's what I'm talkin' about, but here's one I don't know, why do you think they would do a 180 deg crank on a vertical 4 stroke twin in the first place and I'm not saying they didn't. What would be the perceived benefit over a 360 deg crank where both are at tdc at the same time ? I've heard the b.s. about v twins have more torque than comparable parallel twins of the same bore/ stroke but isn't each cylinder independent of the other and just contributing it's own share of the available torque, and doesn't "know" what the other is doing, I'm wondering if you got a torquey v twin and managed to re arrange the cylinders so they fired 360 deg apart, what do you reckon the new max torque figure would be ? Just asking out of interest, but would love to hear an informed (or otherwise) opinion. Huzo.
One of the advantages of the 360 deg is traction is better but they sound funny, especially the 90 deg V 4. Most like the sound of the 180 better also. (A big deal)
:-)
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Back in the day, I bought a new, red 1983 BMW R80RT (like the one in this photo). It was my only transportation at the time. Overall, it was a very practical ride with full fairing and removable hard bags.
It did not have the performance or soul of a Guzzi, but I put >50,000 trouble free miles on that airhead, other than 1 broken clutch cable, tires, and a battery.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/feJZ3v/bmw_r_80rt_1983_1_lgw.jpg) (http://ibb.co/feJZ3v)
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One of the advantages of the 360 deg is traction is better but they sound funny, especially the 90 deg V 4. Most like the sound of the 180 better also. (A big deal)
:-)
Yeah, don't want to thrash this to death, but some of that is gunna take me a while.....
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The early 1000 CC airheads (up to '84) are faster than they feel , kind of like an electric motor . Many have said that they felt slow , but both of mine would hold their own with supposedly faster bikes .
Funny story , there is a guy here in Muskogee that we rode with some in the '90's -'00s . He bought an Ultra Classic in '97 , and proceeded to spend money to make it faster . He the proceeded to buy newer , larger displacement BT's and buy the performance mods . Once a year he challenged my '84 1000 CC beemer , I really didn't think much about it , and even mentioned to him that the 2005 or so RK with a big bore kit and other mods ran pretty good . His son , also a Harley guy , stated , "Dad was not going to stop until he owned a Harley BT that would outrun your old beemer" . Well , maybe $75K later he did have one that would , but just barely :laugh:
Dusty
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IMHO, here is another underrated airhead Beemer, the iconic BMW R90S Never owned one, but have ridden several. Cool bike! :thumb: :cool: :1:
Years produced: 1974-1976
Total production: 17,378
Claimed power: 67bhp @ 7,000rpm
Top speed: 125mph
Engine type: 900cc, two-valve, horizontally opposed twin
Weight: 215kg (474lb) wet
Price then: $3,430 (1974)
Price now: $3,500-$12,500+
(http://thumb.ibb.co/jqKDwF/BMW_R90_S_17a.jpg) (http://ibb.co/jqKDwF)
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Had an R80RT - good bike - about 3/4's of the soul of my 850T. The Beemer is smoother, the T is more voracious. Liked the Beemer, love the Goose.
Now have a R750/7 RT to get back into shape. Rode it before - not much real soul, but it pulls all day long, takes a minute to get up to speed, but still like the big twin thing versus the Jap bikes.
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I just rev'em the nature of the bike and engine comes out. Didn't appreciate the K75S till I was able to spend the day with one. I was on a F650 and the friend had the K75S. Low rpm's felt like a twin, higher rev's like 4.
The R1100RT has grown on me as a capable tourer. I like the looks however of a R100RT or R80RT but I'd like to get the R90S that I know is available to select people in Honolulu.
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One of the advantages of the 360 deg is traction is better but they sound funny, especially the 90 deg V 4. Most like the sound of the 180 better also. (A big deal)
:-)
For dirt tracking they tend to like 270˚ because it doesn't put the power down evenly.
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I'll be honest, I don't really care what my bike "sounds" like. I've had V-twin Harleys, a BMW airhead, multiple British twins and singles, single and twin two-strokes, and two triples.
I have no idea what kind of "character" and "soul" a bike has until it has:
1) Started up for me on a freezing morning.
2) Started up after marinating in rainwater for three days.
3) Carried me over dark mountains in foul conditions without missing a beat.
4) Carried me in the flow of traffic at 70 MPH in the fast lane, boxed in between three trucks and a bridge guardrail.
5) Carried on after hitting an unexpected pothole, leaned way over on a guardrail-less mountain road.
6) Gotten me home with a big load on blazing hot day through the hills.
A bike that will do that for me (and there have been many) has CHARACTER and SOUL, I don't care how many pistons it has, how big they are, or what order it fires them in.
Lannis
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I think its more about the time between the power strokes that matters on dirt. That's why the HD with the 45 deg firing has done so well on the dirt because of the long time between power strokes allows the tire to keep better traction by letting the it recover from strokes of power.
I do believe that sound is important to most (a lot of riders) and useful in marketing.
I think I heard that HD tried? to patent the sound of the 45 deg engine configuration.
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I think its more about the time between the power strokes that matters on dirt. That's why the HD with the 45 deg firing has done so well on the dirt because of the long time between power strokes
As is sometimes said "not to be pedantic", but the 45 degree Harley engine firing intervals are 315 degrees and 405 degrees of crank rotation between power strokes.
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As is sometimes said "not to be pedantic", but the 45 degree Harley engine firing intervals are 315 degrees and 405 degrees of crank rotation between power strokes.
"
A narrow angle V-twin such as the 45° Harley-Davidson naturally has slightly unevenly spaced power strokes. By changing the ignition timing on one of the cylinders by 360° the power strokes are very closely spaced. This will cause uneven fuel distribution in an engine with a single carburettor. The Harley-Davidson XR-750 with twin carburettors was a popular bike to twingle. It had great success in flattrack racing.[citation "
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I had a GSPD for 19 years. I've owned a Guzzi for 5 years(2 years it was partially a part). For the most part . The Guzzi is a simply, more practical version of the BMW airhead. The Guzzi handles better(The BMW is also a pretty good handler), stops better and gas mileage is dramatically less than a BMW airhead. The Guzzi doesn't nickle and dime you to death over simple repairs.
Most people think Guzzi riders are the guys that ate paste in Elementary. I like my Paste with Hot sauce.
Guzzi may have more character but BMW's are not soul less sewing machines.
Why are Guzzi's superior to BMW? There is at least one person with a Moto Guzzi tattoo(WayLongWay).
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The XRs' 750 flat tracker has a 45/675 firing order.
Wow, thanks for that Kirby. Even with my ex-flat-track-racing buddy around, I had no idea anyone was doing that. In fact I would have assumed that it created an unusably vibrating engine!
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Wow, thanks for that Kirby. Even with my ex-flat-track-racing buddy around, I had no idea anyone was doing that. In fact I would have assumed that it created an unusably vibrating engine!
Believe me it does!!! Not really sutable for the street!! Ha!
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Wow, thanks for that Kirby. Even with my ex-flat-track-racing buddy around, I had no idea anyone was doing that. In fact I would have assumed that it created an unusably vibrating engine!
Believe me it does!!! Not really sutable for the street!! Ha!
When the iron head XR race bikes came out in 1970 some of the racers complained that the engine shook worse than the old KR , and much worse than the vert twin Brit motors , a lot of which were either converted to fire both cylinders at once , or a couple that were really trick with cranks converted to 90 degree pin spacing . Yeah , flat trackers are simple :rolleyes:
Dusty
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I tried to find a video somewhere, showing startup and running, but I struck out. I bet it's an odd sound.
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I tried to find a video somewhere, showing startup and running, but I struck out. I bet it's an odd sound.
Especially at the almost 10,000 RPM 's a good XR motor is capable of on mile tracks . They look a little like a Sportster motor , but absolutely nothing is the same . Another reason the XR is good on dirt , they have a falling torque curve . Their dyno graph looks weird compared to almost every other motor.
Dusty
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Aretha Franklin has soul. Otis Redding and Amy Winehouse and Etta James have soul. To my ears, they all sound nice too.
Motorcycles and other machines do not have soul.
I tend to sit forward of the noise emitters on my motorcycles and can't really hear exactly what they sound like while wearing earplugs, so I don't much care, as long as said noise doesn't p**s off my neighours too much.
As for V vs Flat, I have one of each and I like 'em both. Mine have different uses and get sort of equal billing.
In the end, the old-man Flat 108 hp and 79 lb-ft wins out when I want to go somewhere in a hurry or show off at stoplights. Sometimes I strap a walking cane to the seat, for effect.
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"
A narrow angle V-twin such as the 45° Harley-Davidson naturally has slightly unevenly spaced power strokes. By changing the ignition timing on one of the cylinders by 360° the power strokes are very closely spaced. This will cause uneven fuel distribution in an engine with a single carburettor. The Harley-Davidson XR-750 with twin carburettors was a popular bike to twingle. It had great success in flattrack racing.[citation "
Better change the valve timing of that cylinder by 360 degrees too,or that won't work.
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Better change the valve timing of that cylinder by 360 degrees too,or that won't work.
Actually, I read that it's only the valve timing that has to be changed, since the ignition system is a wasted spark type that fires each cylinder every turn of the engine anyway.
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I'll be honest, I don't really care what my bike "sounds" like. I've had V-twin Harleys, a BMW airhead, multiple British twins and singles, single and twin two-strokes, and two triples.
I have no idea what kind of "character" and "soul" a bike has until it has:
1) Started up for me on a freezing morning.
2) Started up after marinating in rainwater for three days.
3) Carried me over dark mountains in foul conditions without missing a beat.
4) Carried me in the flow of traffic at 70 MPH in the fast lane, boxed in between three trucks and a bridge guardrail.
5) Carried on after hitting an unexpected pothole, leaned way over on a guardrail-less mountain road.
6) Gotten me home with a big load on blazing hot day through the hills.
A bike that will do that for me (and there have been many) has CHARACTER and SOUL, I don't care how many pistons it has, how big they are, or what order it fires them in.
Lannis
:1:
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Actually, I read that it's only the valve timing that has to be changed, since the ignition system is a wasted spark type that fires each cylinder every turn of the engine anyway.
The XR has become the small block Chevrolet of motorbike engines . The original aluminum head versions introduced in 1972 made 70 HP at 7500 RPM's with a slightly oversquare bore/stroke ratios,
the latest versions make over 100 HP at 9600 RPM's . Of course the really hot ones have become a bit fragile in mile tune , in fact Jared Mees lost the GNC championship this year because his very hot XR went boom at the Springfield mile 2 .
As for being 'twingled' , in the past they ran that configuration on 1/2 mile tracks , still running standard boom chuff chuff boom chuff chuff chuff chuff chuff on mile tracks . Wait , is that the right number of chuffs ? :laugh:
Dusty
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Aretha Franklin has soul. Otis Redding and Amy Winehouse and Etta James have soul. To my ears, they all sound nice too.
Motorcycles and other machines do not have soul.
I tend to sit forward of the noise emitters on my motorcycles and can't really hear exactly what they sound like while wearing earplugs, so I don't much care, as long as said noise doesn't p**s off my neighours too much.
As for V vs Flat, I have one of each and I like 'em both. Mine have different uses and get sort of equal billing.
In the end, the old-man Flat 108 hp and 79 lb-ft wins out when I want to go somewhere in a hurry or show off at stoplights. Sometimes I strap a walking cane to the seat, for effect.
water boxer
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I'll be honest, I don't really care what my bike "sounds" like. I've had V-twin Harleys, a BMW airhead, multiple British twins and singles, single and twin two-strokes, and two triples.
I have no idea what kind of "character" and "soul" a bike has until it has:
1) Started up for me on a freezing morning.
2) Started up after marinating in rainwater for three days.
3) Carried me over dark mountains in foul conditions without missing a beat.
4) Carried me in the flow of traffic at 70 MPH in the fast lane, boxed in between three trucks and a bridge guardrail.
5) Carried on after hitting an unexpected pothole, leaned way over on a guardrail-less mountain road.
6) Gotten me home with a big load on blazing hot day through the hills.
A bike that will do that for me (and there have been many) has CHARACTER and SOUL, I don't care how many pistons it has, how big they are, or what order it fires them in.
Lannis
Pretty accurate description of an old Honda UJM, right there. Dead on description of my KLR650. But... In a thread that claims to be about moving the soul? You're talking tangibles in the intangible zone.
The old airheads had a nice purr. Uglier'n turd on a stick. The little bricks make a fascinating whish, go like bandits, and you can't kill 'em with a sledge hammer. But the engine looks like --- a brick. Uglier'n even an airhead. The early oilheads make a hypnotic thrum. Styling was better. But by the time they began making the R12s, they were so stupid over-engineered it's just frustrating. My R12CLC chromehead rumbles down the road making a sweet sound, chewing up asphalt and spitting out miles. Many a time we have ridden eight hours to a distant B&B, and arrived wishing there were more. Then the ABS went south. The part costs $2,800, can't be rebuilt, and is six months backordered. Eff that. Meanwhile, no one I know got good service oit of their K12. Best oilhead I had was an R11R. Shoulda stopped there.
Guzzi soul? Haven't had mine long enough to say.
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Hey Kirbster , tell 'em how great my old R60 sounds turning 5K RPM's from a perspective of 50 feet behind .
Dusty
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You ask this in a Guzzi Forum? :popcorn:
:1:
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I'll be honest, I don't really care what my bike "sounds" like. I've had V-twin Harleys, a BMW airhead, multiple British twins and singles, single and twin two-strokes, and two triples.
I have no idea what kind of "character" and "soul" a bike has until it has:
1) Started up for me on a freezing morning.
2) Started up after marinating in rainwater for three days.
3) Carried me over dark mountains in foul conditions without missing a beat.
4) Carried me in the flow of traffic at 70 MPH in the fast lane, boxed in between three trucks and a bridge guardrail.
5) Carried on after hitting an unexpected pothole, leaned way over on a guardrail-less mountain road.
6) Gotten me home with a big load on blazing hot day through the hills.
A bike that will do that for me (and there have been many) has CHARACTER and SOUL, I don't care how many pistons it has, how big they are, or what order it fires them in.
Lannis
I reckon most of us here don't "care" what order they fire in or any of the other things you mention Lannis, however some of us are interested. Would you prefer we talked about something else ?
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Hey Kirbster , tell 'em how great my old R60 sounds turning 5K RPM's from a perspective of 50 feet behind .
Dusty
Ah!
The airheads make sweet music, the 4 valve oil head just doesn't have the deep tone of the 2 valve, harmonics I guess..donoh,,,
:-)
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I reckon most of us here don't "care" what order they fire in or any of the other things you mention Lannis, however some of us are interested. Would you prefer we talked about something else ?
Huzo ol buddy , I do believe it important that they do fire :huh:
Yeah , these types of threads always interest me , always fun to ferret out details and read what some of our smart guys have to say .
Dusty
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I reckon most of us here don't "care" what order they fire in or any of the other things you mention Lannis, however some of us are interested. Would you prefer we talked about something else ?
You'll notice (if you'll actually read my post; people tend not to read them, just to react to something in their own heads), that I only say what "I" think, and what "I" like, and what "I" think it means. That's all I'm really qualified to comment on.
I haven't said one word about what "YOU" should think, or about what "YOU" should write about or discuss. That's over my pay grade, and would be useless anyway.
So if you've had your little sarcastic, snarky comment, carry on.
Lannis
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Ah!
The airheads make sweet music, the 4 valve oil head just doesn't have the deep tone of the 2 valve, harmonics I guess..donoh,,,
:-)
An airhead on an airhead ??? :laugh:
Dusty
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I have had few airheads and loved them all. ( 75/5 lwb , R100R , R100 gs )
I think they are even simpler than guzzi to work on ... replacing the clutch it's a little bit less time consuming.
Setting points it is a breeze ( easier that twin point and are more accessible )
My favorite airhead is a R100GS , it is a war horse and never let me down .
I can take both wheels off with the bike on center stand.
Not enough power ? they just have different way to deliver the power ,airhead deliver the power like electric motor , yes i agreed guzzi have more "punch" but in the end a r100 does to 0/60 mph in the same time a 1000cc guzzi does.
Handling ?
Guzzi are sturdier ,they feel like a train on rails ,airheads feel more "buttery" but i have never had problem with a beemer at high speed. they are straight as arrow.
two up riding ?
very comfortable .
MPG : i thing they are same.
I love guzzi more, maybe because i am Italian and i want to ride something made were i was born and raised.
both machine will run forever and ever with basic maintenance .
i do not "hate" beemers and i like them.
guzzi and BMW are both wonderful machine.... ride what you like.
I am lucky enough to be able to ride them both.
ciao
I do not ride any modern guzzi or bmw ,i am not interested so i cannot compare or express an opinion.
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Aretha Franklin has soul. Otis Redding and Amy Winehouse and Etta James have soul. To my ears, they all sound nice too.
Motorcycles and other machines do not have soul.
I tend to sit forward of the noise emitters on my motorcycles and can't really hear exactly what they sound like while wearing earplugs, so I don't much care, as long as said noise doesn't p**s off my neighours too much.
As for V vs Flat, I have one of each and I like 'em both. Mine have different uses and get sort of equal billing.
In the end, the old-man Flat 108 hp and 79 lb-ft wins out when I want to go somewhere in a hurry or show off at stoplights. Sometimes I strap a walking cane to the seat, for effect.
Sounds a lot like my situation. R1200R and T3 that I enjoy equally -- for different reasons. I wouldn't want to part with either of them.
I really like both marques and feel there is a place for both in my garage and my riding style.
Best,
Carlo
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It's an emotional topic, isn't it? But that's understandable - I know these bikes certainly stir up emotions in me.
I do love my airheads. They're subtle and much more capable than they appear. They go much faster than it feels they're going. They just calmly go about their business. I like being stealth and slipping past before anyone knows I've been there. I'm sure many an LEO didn't wake up in time to point the radar because he didn't hear me coming.
I've ridden in some pretty rotten conditions - rain, cold, fog, middle of nowhere - and afterwards thought how awful it could have been had the bike broken down. Seems funny to think that being broken down is worse than riding in fog, but it is, though it's hard to explain why.
I'd been riding for 25 years when I got my first airhead. It took me a while to figure out the way IT wanted to be treated and handled. It behaved differently than anything I'd ridden before. Once that was sorted out, it was almost magical - the bike became an extension of myself.
The Guzzi is similar in many respects and totally different in others. I love the looks, always have, but I know someone who finds the engines ugly. To each his own, I guess. I used to think the BMWs were pretty damn ugly, but at some point my perception turned around and I now find them beautiful. Funny how that goes. At the time I got my first BMW in 1990, I'd thought they were ugly and expensive. I swapped my old Volvo 122 wagon for the 1976 R90, and have been riding them ever since. At the time, I'd gotten tired of the bikes I'd had and decided it just wasn't practical having a bike here in rainy old Portland Oregon. Now I ride year round and rarely drive the PU. Yes, the parts are more expensive, but it all evens out in the end.
I think also, one of the differences between my airheads and this 77 T3 I just got, is the compression ratio. The Guzzi bark with each firing makes more of a boom than the airhead with it's lower compression and quieter mufflers.
As for the differences in crank angle and the reasons why, I thought it was a trade off between torque and vibration. Singles have a lot of torque and two cylinders firing close together are more like a single. Both kicking the flywheel close together gives it a stronger push. I could be all wrong here, but that's how it seems to me.
And even though the airhead has a power stroke every 360 degrees, they have a fair amount of torque and a fairly flat torque curve. Like the Guzzis, it's not a good idea to make them work below 3500RPM.
I'm still trying to understand how a 90 degree V twin can run so smooth, especially at 4K and above.
I like what you said arveno. And I agree.
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WS , 90 degree V twins actually have pretty good primary and secondary balance . At the moment of TDC or BDC the opposite piston is near max piston speed , therefor providing a natural balance factor.
Dusty
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WS , 90 degree V twins actually have pretty good primary and secondary balance . At the moment of TDC or BDC the opposite piston is near max piston speed , therefor providing a natural balance factor. Dusty
I've heard that, but can't picture it. It makes no sense to me how a motion at 90 degrees to something that's stopped can cancel vibration forces.
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Picture a rotating counterbalance weight trying to make up for the linear movement of a piston. It can't, because it has a sideways movement that's not in line with the piston. But put another one 90 degrees to that, and now the unneeded sideways movement is in line with the first one. If you cleverly adjust the counterbalance weight to minimize imbalance for both pistons, you're better off than you would have been with just one.
Then there's what Dusty and I said, that stopping two pistons at the same time introduces a rotational vibration, so putting one piston 90 degrees out of phase from the other negates that.
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Thanks for that Jim , you have a good way of explaining things . Damn , I do love these types of discussions :thumb:
Dusty
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Thanks for that Jim , you have a good way of explaining things . Damn , I do love these types of discussions :thumb:
Dusty
Yeah that's the closest I've come to understanding the concept, but it's still over my head.
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You'll notice (if you'll actually read my post; people tend not to read them, just to react to something in their own heads), that I only say what "I" think, and what "I" like, and what "I" think it means. That's all I'm really qualified to comment on.
I haven't said one word about what "YOU" should think, or about what "YOU" should write about or discuss. That's over my pay grade, and would be useless anyway.
So if you've had your little sarcastic, snarky comment, carry on.
Lannis
C'mon Lannis it wasn't that bad was it ? I've seen worse on this forum from down here, but yeah, it was a bit sarcastic, but harmless. Anyway, thanks for the offer, I'll carry on.
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Yeah that's the closest I've come to understanding the concept, but it's still over my head.
Jim can expand on this , but picture a 360 degree twin cylinder configuration . Now , rotate one of the crank pins 90 degrees , effectively creating a 90 degree V twin . If you start from that configuration , and can picture how the piston at TDC or BDC is being balanced by by the other piston moving up or down at close to maximum piston speed , then transfer that to a 90 degree V angle in your mind , it might become clear . A crank with throws at 90 degrees also creates less rocking couple than a flat twin or a 180 degree layout , although I understand the rocking couple forces are fairly small , every little bit helps . Dang , does this help ?
Dusty
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I do try Dusty, I really do, but I'm becoming mentally lazy, so when something like this comes along I just defer to those that have it covered and busy myself with something within my capability. One day it might "click" for me, but I'll probably die wondering, but jeez it's a good thread, something for everyone, don't you agree ??!
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I do agree .
Dusty
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Well BMW does not do air-cooled and simplistic bikes like the good old R75 any more, does it? For me, my Guzzi V9 is indeed just the closest modern reincarnation of the R75 that I can get. The cylinders being bent is a small difference, the feel of the V9 is still quite similar to that of the URAL (a soviet R75 replica) that I used to ride back in the day. It all started with BMW R32 and for me they are just one family of bikes. If you're bothered by the seemingly "missing link", take a look at the Victoria v35 Bergmeister (https://www.kr26.de/images/xl/2015-08-01-4894-victoria-v35-bergmeister-hoske-tank.jpg) and you'll see the link is actually there. It doesn't matter how do you call it or who manufactures it, it's still the same family of bikes and nowadays only URAL and Guzzi remain as active manufacturers.
PS. This may not make sense to the Griso and other more powerful CARC bike riders. I'm only talking about the current V7/V9, they seem to have maintained what was once started by the R32.
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PS. This may not make sense to the Griso and other more powerful CARC bike riders. I'm only talking about the current V7/V9, they seem to have maintained what was once started by the R32.
...And that's what lead me to the Guzzi smallblocks (from a CARC) four years ago...
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(http://www.influx.co.uk//wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Moto-Guzzi.gif)
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Hey! Is that a hemy?
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(http://www.influx.co.uk//wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Moto-Guzzi.gif)
Now you've ruined the "90 deg engine primary balance" vision I had.
That thing looks like it would vibrate right out of the frame. Now I'm back to where I was ....
Lannis
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C'mon Lannis it wasn't that bad was it ? I've seen worse on this forum from down here, but yeah, it was a bit sarcastic, but harmless.
I guess so.
Perhaps I was responding partly to so many modern "special snowflakes" in the world today who can't STAND it if someone posts a comment that indicates that someone has an opinion different from theirs, or who thinks a bike is ugly that they consider beautiful, or doesn't join in the hymns and eulogies when a rock star dies, or something ....
It CAN be a good thread even if a couple people don't agree on what constitutes "character" in a motorcycle ....
Lannis
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Now you've ruined the "90 deg engine primary balance" vision I had.
That thing looks like it would vibrate right out of the frame. Now I'm back to where I was ....
Lannis
cry baby
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cry baby
... and it always happens JUST when you think you've got it ....
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I tried to figure out why I like my Goose one time. One reason I keep it is because I can fix just about anything on it. Good thing too cause approaching 100k miles it has parts that need replacing more often.
Soul? Don't believe in it. Yes, the T5 feels 'raw', but, just because it shakes and rattles a lot. I don't consider that a "good" thing.
I like the attention it gets, but, most of that attention is from the ammo cans on the back of the bike, not because it is a goose. :)
Were I to get another bike what would it be? The only ones that have tempted me are the beemer RT's.
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Huzo, here's a more technical forum discussion on engine balance. If you like the simplistic one were having here, you'll love this:
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=366049
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Make mine a 350 cc, 72 degree, Heron head, v-twin. :wink: There's really nothing else like it from any other manufacturer before or since. Smooth, torquey, efficient, easy to maintain, light-weight, fantastic handling and brakes.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/ceaYVa/Morini_first_ride_001.jpg) (http://ibb.co/ceaYVa)
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(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r261/steve2371/onlineposting/boxermotor02.gif)[/URL]
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And a fun video that explains it all:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvpFcSPtDV0
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Speaking of cool Beemers....have a look at this new beauty! :thumb: :1: :cool:
(http://thumb.ibb.co/moHVAa/Screen_Shot_2016_10_04_at_8_46_42_AM.png) (http://ibb.co/moHVAa)
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water boxer
Yep, that's pretty much what my forum sig says
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Yep, that's pretty much what my forum sig says
"Water Boxer" - - too funny! :grin: :laugh: Maybe we could rename it...."The Hydro Boxer" also!! :laugh: :grin: :bike-037:
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I'm still riding my "new" 1985 R80
The RnineT racer looks terrific
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I'm still riding my "new" 1985 R80
The RnineT racer looks terrific
The '85 BMW R80 is a fine motorcycle, any way you look at it (IMHO) :cool: :1:
(http://thumb.ibb.co/iF4Sqa/R80_1985_Umberto.jpg) (http://ibb.co/iF4Sqa)
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NC Steve,
Now you've done ut.
That BMWobbleyou Gif is no good - ut's got a bent Krank -
Just look at the 1/4 timing gear go! You bugger your Timing
Chain and all sorts of "things" if you don't turn it off ASAP!
I know I'm strange but I don't agree about boxer's not liking
low rev's. Now the fueling is better my 1150R will happily
putt around down to 1500rupums in 3rd and pull away
smoothly, wear as my Daughter's Monster didn't like
anything under 2,900-3,000.
Surprised no-ones mentioned a certain 120* twin with
offset pins that runs dead smooth, won races for 20 yrs
And yet has never been used on the road????
Maurie.
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My screen isn't shaking so those motors are running dang smooth.... :rolleyes:
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Huzo, here's a more technical forum discussion on engine balance. If you like the simplistic one were having here, you'll love this:
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=366049
I may as well just give up now,'cos I've got no hope...
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I know I'm strange but I don't agree about boxer's not liking
low rev's. Now the fueling is better my 1150R will happily
putt around down to 1500rupums in 3rd and pull away
smoothly, wear as my Daughter's Monster didn't like
anything under 2,900-3,000.
Maurie.
Same here. Like your daughter's Monster, my ST2's 944cc 2 valve didn't like low revs. The ST4s 996 4 valve likes all revs.
My old RT pulled like a train from 1800 or so but was happier between 3000-5500 IIRC.
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Riding twins vs 4 cyl bikes, I've found the torque curve to be broader on 4 cyl engines.
I know that runs counter to what most people believe. My 4 cyl Suzuki can idle off clutch and pull solidly to 11k rpms and pick up power 4k when the jets kick in.
Twins seem to be more limited in torque range. Cruisers have low end power and top out at 5k. Guzzi seem to kick in at 4k-6k. Duc seem to get "snatchy" unless revved.
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I don't think either has much in the way of Flywheel to help,
but with the Boxer it shouldn't matter as much with a power
Pulse every 360 and the good balance of a flat twin. A mates
old R80 from a cold start will sit idling at around 850rpm and
be completely still on his main stand on a concrete floor,mirrors
clear. Put a hand on his tank and there's the vague hint from the
offset crank but it's like a relaxed pulse.
Interestingly the monster (800) was smoother than the 1150
Once it was in it's happy place. Puzzles me a bit when you guys
talk about your Gooses vibration, I was thinking they should
balance up as well as the Dukes - or am I reading too much
Old Hands good naturedly cussing their Motorbicycle.
Maurie.
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Riding twins vs 4 cyl bikes, I've found the torque curve to be broader on 4 cyl engines.
I believe it's much more a matter of overall engine design than the number of cylinders the engine has. There are 2 and 4 cylinder engines with flat torque curves, and also 2 and 4 cylinder engines with peaky torque curves.
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"Water Boxer" - - too funny! :grin: :laugh: Maybe we could rename it...."The Hydro Boxer" also!! :laugh: :grin: :bike-037:
My personal preference for mine is `shower-head`.
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I believe it's much more a matter of overall engine design than the number of cylinders the engine has. There are 2 and 4 cylinder engines with flat torque curves, and also 2 and 4 cylinder engines with peaky torque curves.
I must disagree. I've ridden twins that pull down low but peter out when revved over 5k.
Those that have good mid range but never have a top end kick.
And the others that are "snatchy" and lug but have a top end kick.
I've not ridden one that has a broad power range and top end power like a 4 cyl.
Wait, I can think of one possible exception and the is the KTM RC8. I never got to rev it but it was salty on the bottom and mid. So I guess that demonstrates your point Jim. I'd forgotten about that one.
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My personal preference for mine is `shower-head`.
What I read most often on Beemer forums is "Wet Head." My R1200R is a "Cam Head." Before that, the twins were Hex Head, Oil Head, and Air Head.
If anyone cares :)
Best,
Carlo
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My CB1100 pulls strongly from idle, has a very flat torque curve and does have a personality change in the upper revs. My buddies little GXR600 is all top end and really becomes a wild beast when his secondary injectors kick in. In the real world on public streets, not all that useful. The CB on the other hand is very easy to ride, just does not have the corning clearance for real spirited riding (which fits my riding style just fine).
With the new maps, the Griso finally has some low rpm torque and good manners below 3K (but still a bit snatchy) and the wonderful locomotive power at speed, with passing power on tap that the CB has to wait for.
That said, I wish Honda would come out with a modern GB500/GB650 as singles have their own personality that is fun to play with.
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Wait, I can think of one possible exception and the is the KTM RC8. I never got to rev it but it was salty on the bottom and mid. So I guess that demonstrates your point Jim. I'd forgotten about that one.
I don't doubt your experiences at all. I'm just saying that the torque curve is the way it is by design, and has less to do with the number of cylinders in the engine than popular belief would say.
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Riding twins vs 4 cyl bikes, I've found the torque curve to be broader on 4 cyl engines.
I know that runs counter to what most people believe. My 4 cyl Suzuki can idle off clutch and pull solidly to 11k rpms and pick up power 4k when the jets kick in.
Twins seem to be more limited in torque range. Cruisers have low end power and top out at 5k. Guzzi seem to kick in at 4k-6k. Duc seem to get "snatchy" unless revved.
Suzuki's 1157 4 cylinder is a beast. It was my second bike and it spoiled me forever regarding having both low end pull and high end punch. "Snatchy" is a good way to say it for the Duc when the rpm are too low "chk chk chk chk"
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The more the cylinders the smoother the delivery, but the amount of torque is all about the design, BMEP and very inportant stroke and bore to stroke ratio...( over simplified for sure but one sentance discription..sorta)
:-)
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NC Steve,
Surprised no-ones mentioned a certain 120* twin with
offset pins that runs dead smooth, won races for 20 yrs
And yet has never been used on the road????
Maurie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfaXEk2nXGc
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Be still, my beating heart.. :smiley:
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:1:
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfaXEk2nXGc
There you go!
I have two recurring barnfind phantasies - a bicylindrica and
a Rudge 4 valve.
Saw a Rudge motor once - unfortunately not in a barn but
lovingly stashed under a bench all wrapped up in oily rags
sitting next to a similarly treated JAP 1000.
Never assume a pile of oily rags is just a pile of oily rags.
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They could probably sell rides on it. :thumb: I'd pay for one demo ride. $20 maybe. :grin: The Bicilindrica that is.
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Just got in from a spirited run on a 4 valve.............. god those Guzzi engines move me. :bow:
I've owned and ridden the Japanese fours the Bmws........... sold them all eventually........ not sure what it is ,but I have found my machine.
Stinson out........... :thumb:
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Just got in from a spirited run on a 4 valve.............. god those Guzzi engines move me. :bow:
I've owned and ridden the Japanese fours the Bmws........... sold them all eventually........ not sure what it is ,but I have found my machine.
Stinson out........... :thumb:
Me, too..
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Me, too..
Me three! :wink: The OHC 4V motor has certainly captured my attention! :thumb: :cool: :1: :grin: :laugh:
(http://thumb.ibb.co/eGa3wF/IMG_0404.jpg) (http://ibb.co/eGa3wF)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/dFPwGF/motor1.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dFPwGF)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/dPtCqa/motor4.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dPtCqa)