Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mark_Z on October 17, 2016, 04:47:19 PM
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Two months ago, I changed the side stand switch on my 2007 Griso. I was test riding it, when the motor just shut off. The engine would crank, but wouldn't start. After sitting for months in the shop, the owner said that he could get the fuel injectors to open if they were connected directly to the battery but not otherwise. He has given up and says it needs to go to a dealer. He thinks he needs diagnostic equipment available only at a dealer. The closest dealer to me is about 150 miles from me (Memphis, TN)
Any one got an alternative to an expensive trip? Anyone want to buy a used 2007Griso, with 59K miles on her?
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Have you checked to see if the fuel filter has blown off in the tank?
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Maybe not closer but we can handle the problem whatever it may be
Harper's Moto Guzzi
816 697 3411
Just outside Kansas City
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I haven't checked to see if the fuel filter has blown off. Would that block the fuel totally?
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Sounds like the side stand switch may still be the culprit given the way you've described it...have they tried starting the bike with the side stand up? Seems awfully coincidental the timing of it.
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The motor won't crank with the side stand down, so don't see how it could be that switch.
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The motor won't crank with the side stand down, so don't see how it could be that switch.
Just going off my experience with the California and the Calvin...they will both crank but not fire up with the side stand down...figured it's worth a check for the Griso too... :grin:
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Open the fuel cap. Do you hear the normal fuel pump startup process when you turn the key on. If the hose is off you can still hear pump noise.
Check the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFl4ZNUivpg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFl4ZNUivpg)
Pretty lengthy discussion along these same lines a few years back on this site.
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=49882.30 (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=49882.30)
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I am sure this is frustrating but if you have 59k on it then you know this bike pretty well.
Yeah, its not a Honda/Suzuki/Harley etc and so theres not a lot of dealers around.
Me? I think the hassle is well worth having an awesome Griso. No way I would feel that way with the other brands listed.
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I believe you can check injector function with GuzziDiag.
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Cranks but no start with no injector pulse could point to crank or cam position sensor. Most fuel injection systems are programmed not to pulse the injectors if the ecu is not receiving a signal that the engine is rotating.
I don't know what sends that signal on the griso but there are plenty on this forum who do.
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I could still hear the fuel pump
Open the fuel cap. Do you hear the normal fuel pump startup process when you turn the key on. If the hose is off you can still hear pump noise.
Check the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFl4ZNUivpg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFl4ZNUivpg)
Pretty lengthy discussion along these same lines a few years back on this site.
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=49882.30 (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=49882.30)
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Is it true that you can check fuel injectors with GuzziDiag? It was my understanding that this software was only good for dicking around with the fuel map.
I believe you can check injector function with GuzziDiag.
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Is it true that you can check fuel injectors with GuzziDiag? It was my understanding that this software was only good for dicking around with the fuel map.
You are misunderstanding. :smiley: Guzzidiag will also tell you what all the sensors are telling the computer.
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Yes but was the fuel swirling around?
You shouldn't see to much, not like in the video
When you turn the key ON the fuel pump will run for a couple of seconds
If the crank position sensor is ok the fuel pump will start up again while the bike is cranking
Do you think it was just a coincidence it happened after you changed the switch?
Anyone with a Griso Is there any indication on the dash when the stand is deployed?
My moneys on the switch
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Hmmm, give ya 35 for it.
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Anyone with a Griso Is there any indication on the dash when the stand is deployed?
Yes, it is a blindingly bright orange light
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It aint dead, it's just testing you.
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I haven't checked to see if the fuel filter has blown off. Would that block the fuel totally?
Like Pete says check that it (filter) has not blown off. By your asking if fuel would be blocked makes me think maybe you do not grasp how the fuel system works. If the filter is off, fuel is not being sent where it needs to go. Pretty basic.
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Yes, it is a blindingly bright orange light
Well there you go, is the sidestand light turning On and Off as you deploy it?
Is the fuel swirling around in the tank?
Is the pump re-starting while cranking? It will always run for a couple of seconds when you turn the key or kill switch On
Are you getting a spark while cranking?
Do the plugs smell of fuel when you remove them after trying to start?
Perhaps you have help by the way of another Guzzi owner near Memphis, it sounds like a simple problem.
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Is it true that you can check fuel injectors with GuzziDiag? It was my understanding that this software was only good for dicking around with the fuel map.
Nope. There are two tests under 'Actors', Injection L and Injection R. They will start the fuel pump and you can hear the injectors firing. You can pull the injectors out if you want, the test is done with engine off.
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How hard is it to remove the tank, flip it over and pull the pump for a looksee?
If the filter has blown off there will be no pressure at the injectors so even if they do pulse nothing will come out. When you turn the ignition on the pump primes then turns off, that to me would indicate the problem is downstream of the pump and the filter is the commonest failure point. It's also dead easy to check! What are you waiting for? It could also be a burst filter due to ethanol but I think this less likely than just a blown off filter. When replacing use submersible fuel hose. The problem is caused by the pump manufacturer not using a submersible hose which is a pretty woeful oversight!
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Sounds like the side stand switch may still be the culprit given the way you've described it...have they tried starting the bike with the side stand up? Seems awfully coincidental the timing of it.
can you by pass it as a test ? I mean whatever the switch does when functioning correctly, just simulate that. Either bridge it, or disconnect it, there's only two ways it can be.
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As Peter said
Take tank off, remember the fuel connection is like a air hose, push forward and pull back on the end and pop it comes off.
Peter warned me of this when I bought my 2006 and the hose just came off the pump with just a light pull.
It would be my first port of call, easy and cost nothing to look. :grin:
Harry
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Must be an Italian thing. The Benelli died while riding years ago. Everything energized but no start. No fuel pressure at the injectors. Hose clamp failed where the hose attached to the filter. This is an internal pump assembly with filter. Simple fix.
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The CARCs are different from the older stuff. The motor will not turn, with side stand down. You should have a bright orange light telling you so.
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Just going off my experience with the California and the Calvin...they will both crank but not fire up with the side stand down...figured it's worth a check for the Griso too... :grin:
No they don't. At least not the CalVin.
It will crank and start in neutral though.
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can you by pass it as a test ? I mean whatever the switch does when functioning correctly, just simulate that. Either bridge it, or disconnect it, there's only two ways it can be.
IT IS NOT THE SIDESTAND SWITCH IF IT IS CRANKING!
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Two months ago, I changed the side stand switch on my 2007 Griso. I was test riding it, when the motor just shut off. The engine would crank, but wouldn't start. After sitting for months in the shop, the owner said that he could get the fuel injectors to open if they were connected directly to the battery but not otherwise. He has given up and says it needs to go to a dealer. He thinks he needs diagnostic equipment available only at a dealer. The closest dealer to me is about 150 miles from me (Memphis, TN)
Any one got an alternative to an expensive trip? Anyone want to buy a used 2007Griso, with 59K miles on her?
Likely timing sensor or fuel filter.
I assume you checked the fuses.
Sat for months in a shop? That is sad.
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Sitting for months, you say? I have seen this before when technicians rely on a service manual to diagnose a problem when common sense would suffice. I have been down that rabbit hole. Suck, squeeze, bang and blow. What is missing and what are the parts that contribute to the process?
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Must be an Italian thing. The Benelli died while riding years ago. Everything energized but no start. No fuel pressure at the injectors. Hose clamp failed where the hose attached to the filter. This is an internal pump assembly with filter. Simple fix.
my 2010 Griso SE did that to me 5 months ago when I pulled to red line in second gear. All of a sudden the engine cut off and I cruised to a safe spot on the road side.
The engine will crank but it won't fire at all, first thing crossed my mind is something popped in the tank. Opened the fuel cap, turn on the ignition and I saw the dreaded swirling.
It's 3km away from my house and I decided to push her back, burnt plenty of calories.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v198/Phang/Mobile%20Uploads/20160520_151335_zpsahkg1rih.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v198/Phang/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG-20160520-WA0013_zpswcfohbhd.jpeg)
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It's 3km away from my house and I decided to push her back, burnt plenty of calories.
Tell me about it. I ran out of fuel on my duck one time. Fortunately, I was young. Decided to push it about a half mile. I never had noticed that it was a little uphill before.. :smiley:
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IT IS NOT THE SIDESTAND SWITCH IF IT IS CRANKING!
I didn't think it was Wayne, but it was a simple way they could eliminate it. I've owned a Norge since '07 and I'm a bit familiar with it... It'll be what Pete said.
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No they don't. At least not the CalVin.
It will crank and start in neutral though.
On my California it behaved exactly this way....cranky cranky cranky, but not starting up with the side stand down.
On the Calvin, was just up in Toronto and while there saw the same issue with Janusz' Calvin. Would crank with the side stand down, but not start. Pull the side stand up and it fires right up.
Now maybe someone has messed with the switches in both cases...but 2 for 2 in my limited experience.
It's a cheap item to test...and sounds awfully coincidental that the OP's issue surfaced right after futzing with his side stand. Who knows...maybe the Guzzi Gods of Coincidence schemed and decided to FUBAR the fuel system at the same time. Just little things to check and discard methodically...but YMMV.
:laugh: :laugh:
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My 08 Griso blew off the filter, had similar symptoms to yours. Pulled the tank and hooked up a better hose clamp and problem solved. Got a new filter from Guzzi, still in the garage or I gave it to Bill Ross when I sold him my Griso. Never a problem after that
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On my California it behaved exactly this way....cranky cranky cranky, but not starting up with the side stand down.
On the Calvin, was just up in Toronto and while there saw the same issue with Janusz' Calvin. Would crank with the side stand down, but not start. Pull the side stand up and it fires right up.
That sort of makes sense, the earlier VII spine frame bikes cut out if you deploy the stand with the bike in gear but on those the start button is interlocked as well, they won't crank, who knows how the Griso ECU is configured.
Should check out the Neutral switch as well maybe?
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The Norge will crank and start with the stand down, but not in gear unless clutch is pulled in. (Mine's a bit dangerous 'cos the "safety" switch flew to bits on the clutch so I by passed it.) gotta be careful...
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I will try to answer all questoons if I can rember them.
While cranking, with the side stand up, in first gear, with the clutch engaged and the gas cap open, I hear the fuel pump start, but I didn't notice any swirling. This was 2 months ago, and thinking back on it, it did seem that I did seem that I saw little movement. Of course, the cigarrete lighter I was using did't put out much light, so I can't say if this is really true. The guys at the shop said they could get gas to go thru, although they are pretty tired of the whole problem, and they want Sophia out of their shop, so maybe this aint so.
There is an idiot light on the display that says the side stand is down, bright yellow it is, but still not real visible in broad daylight. That's why it took me til that night to notice that, even with the side stand up, the idiot light still said it was down. Thus, the side stand switch replacement I did.
I haven't checked fuses or relays yet, its been in the shop ever since this happened. Likewise on any sensor checks, no checkee. Also likewise on the internal fuel line and filter, no checkee.
The Norge will crank and start with the stand down, but not in gear unless clutch is pulled in. (Mine's a bit dangerous 'cos the "safety" switch flew to bits on the clutch so I by passed it.) gotta be careful...
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Make it 50 and you got a deal
Hmmm, give ya 35 for it.
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The ECU maps are just a part of the software, there's also the logic that explains how the interlocks work, that's something I work with, industrial control systems.
It would be interesting to get hold of the software that that allows you to monitor and make changes to the logic, it would be a great troubleshooting tool.
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Make it 50 and you got a deal
I'm at $100.
The shop said that they could get the injectors to fire hooked to battery voltage? IF that's true, that means the control side is ok, phase sensors working. The injectors aren't getting battery/ignition power. Have you verified spark yet? Have you checked connections at the relays? I'd have to see a schematic, but I bet those injectors are fed power from a relay, could be something as dumb as a corroded fuse or relay connection. Sometimes just unplugging all the fuses and relays will shine a contact up enough to start working again.
Sounds like you need a new shop, if they were interested in fixing it, it would be done already. You don't always need a factory scan tool, logic and knowing how a system works will go a long way.
Have a go at it yourself, it's not that hard.
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$102.50....if you meet me halfway.
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The bid is up to $102.50 Anyone else?
W
S$102.50....if you meet me halfway.
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That's about the cost of a new fuel filter hose and the time to fit it! Brilliant! Free Griso!
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Start logic for a Griso:
Key on/kill switch off
Sidestand down or up -> gear in neutral -> start possible
Sidestand down or up -> clutch out -> gear in neutral -> start possible
Sidestand down or up -> clutch in -> in any gear -> start possible
Sidestand down or up -> clutch out -> in any gear -> start impossible
Engine running
Sidestand down -> clutch in -> gear selectable
Sidestand down -> clutch out -> gear selected -> ECU kill engine
Sidestand up -> clutch out -> gear selected -> ride away fast
Do yourself a favour, get bike back, buy GuzziDiag cables, download GuzziDiag check injectors/fuel pump/sensors/start logic etc, then if need be pull tank (5 minute job on Griso), pull fuel pump and confirm whether filter is adrift.
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It wont be hard to do, once I get it home from the shop
How hard is it to remove the tank, flip it over and pull the pump for a looksee?
If the filter has blown off there will be no pressure at the injectors so even if they do pulse nothing will come out. When you turn the ignition on the pump primes then turns off, that to me would indicate the problem is downstream of the pump and the filter is the commonest failure point. It's also dead easy to check! What are you waiting for? It could also be a burst filter due to ethanol but I think this less likely than just a blown off filter. When replacing use submersible fuel hose. The problem is caused by the pump manufacturer not using a submersible hose which is a pretty woeful oversight!
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Make it 50 and you got a deal
Don't have that much.
It gets power from a logic relay that all the idiot sensors go to. You can jump across and it's a go, no more idiots. De-engineering.
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Well there is also the matter of shipping and handling. Ainother $1000 aught to do it
That's about the cost of a new fuel filter hose and the time to fit it! Brilliant! Free Griso!
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Roy, I don't know the answers to any of your questions, but I will in a few days. Thanks for your questions, they are a big help
Well there you go, is the sidestand light turning On and Off as you deploy it?
Is the fuel swirling around in the tank?
Is the pump re-starting while cranking? It will always run for a couple of seconds when you turn the key or kill switch On
Are you getting a spark while cranking?
Do the plugs smell of fuel when you remove them after trying to start?
Perhaps you have help by the way of another Guzzi owner near Memphis, it sounds like a simple problem.
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Sounds like you need a new shop, if they were interested in fixing it, it would be done already.
Ya think??
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They have the name vintage in the name, I guess 2007 is too new
G
Ya think??
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"Of course, the cigarrete lighter I was using did't put out much light"
I can't help thinking that you'll not be owning this bike much longer if that's what you're using to see if fuel is swirling in the tank.
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That may have been tongue :smiley: in cheek..
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I'd assumed it was Chuck but we all know folk who've done dafter things than that.
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Yes. Replacing cells in forklift batteries. With a MAP gas torch to melt lead into a post form mold, after using the O2 to purge the cell of H. Then you light the torch and pass it over the open cell fill hole. Any residual H lights off with a whoof or KABAM, depending on the amount. H2SO4 is sometimes ejected upwards to rain down on the area. Glad to not be doing that anymore.
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Yes. Replacing cells in forklift batteries. With a MAP gas torch to melt lead into a post form mold, after using the O2 to purge the cell of H. Then you light the torch and pass it over the open cell fill hole. Any residual H lights off with a whoof or KABAM, depending on the amount. H2SO4 is sometimes ejected upwards to rain down on the area. Glad to not be doing that anymore.
:shocked: :popcorn:
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I would like to thank everyone that helped me with my little problem of Sophia when she wouldn't start. The problem was fixed 2 days after I got her back from the shop.
The shop guys fell into what Robert Pirsig in Zen and the Art Maintenance called a logic trap. They seemed to have assumed that the fuel injection system was messed up, when in actual fact, there was a hole in the fuel line leading from the fuel pump to the fuel filter.
I am now back on the road after spending $4.69 at NAPA. Again kudo's to you all!!!
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Good deal. I'm glad it turned out to be something simple.
Now for the big question: Did you use submersible fuel line as was suggested in previous replies? I cannot stress how important that is! If not, then I would obtain the proper line and dig in again sooner than later. The wrong line will become soft and slip off.
(I only ask because 4 bucks seems a bit low for submersible fuel injection line.) Don't use the clamps with the slots cut all the way around either.
John Henry
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I would like to thank everyone that helped me with my little problem of Sophia when she wouldn't start. The problem was fixed 2 days after I got her back from the shop.
The shop guys fell into what Robert Pirsig in Zen and the Art Maintenance called a logic trap. They seemed to have assumed that the fuel injection system was messed up, when in actual fact, there was a hole in the fuel line leading from the fuel pump to the fuel filter.
I am now back on the road after spending $4.69 at NAPA. Again kudo's to you all!!!
Nevermind.. I see ZZ beat me to it.
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This is what you need,
https://www.amazon.com/Gates-27093-Fuel-Line-Hose/dp/B001R5XSGU (https://www.amazon.com/Gates-27093-Fuel-Line-Hose/dp/B001R5XSGU)
And use the right clamps too, good quality made in Sweden,
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00OL264DU/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00OL264DU/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Or you will be doing it again and not in the convenience of your garage.
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Good deal. I'm glad it turned out to be something simple.
Now for the big question: Did you use submersible fuel line as was suggested in previous replies? I cannot stress how important that is! If not, then I would obtain the proper line and dig in again sooner than later. The wrong line will become soft and slip off.
(I only ask because 4 bucks seems a bit low for submersible fuel injection line.) Don't use the clamps with the slots cut all the way around either.
John Henry
This will happen, unless it was $21 a ft for the hose. It will take a month to pop back off after getting soft.
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Congratulations!
So, may I safely assume that you won't be accepting my bid of $102.50 now?
:bike-037:
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Logic trap indeed. Just because you can hear the fuel pump run, does not mean it is building pressure in the rail.
Congrats, feels good, doesn't it?
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The guy at NAPA said it would be immersible. However, I have a short section of the fuel lie, soaking in a bottle of gas, and I should be able to tell if its softening over time. I think I will go ahead and order a new line and filter from Harper's anyway.
Again, thanks to all!
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If you have some of the same line look for SAE 30R10 printed on the hose.
This is the specification for submersible fuel line. If it is 30R9 or 30R7 it is the wrong hose and will not work for long.
The clamps are important too. Do not use the regular slotted clamps. Use the kind I linked to in my above post or the crimp on type.
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Dang! And I was ready to up the ante to $200 and scare the other bidders off.. :smiley: :boozing:
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Dang! And I was ready to up the ante to $200 and scare the other bidders off.. :smiley: :boozing:
Not a penny over $201
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The guy at NAPA said it would be immersible. However, I have a short section of the fuel lie, soaking in a bottle of gas, and I should be able to tell if its softening over time. I think I will go ahead and order a new line and filter from Harper's anyway.
Again, thanks to all!
If it is, it is printed on the exterior of the hose. There is, 1: plain old fuel line, 2: fuel injection line, and 3: submersible fuel injection line. Options 1 and 2 will fail in this application.
John Henry
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I would like to thank everyone that helped me with my little problem of Sophia when she wouldn't start. The problem was fixed 2 days after I got her back from the shop.
The shop guys fell into what Robert Pirsig in Zen and the Art Maintenance called a logic trap. They seemed to have assumed that the fuel injection system was fucked up, when in actual fact, there was a hole in the fuel line leading from the fuel pump to the fuel filter.
I am now back on the road after spending $4.69 at NAPA. Again kudo's to you all!!!
Dod someone mention that earlier ??
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I will try to answer all questoons if I can rember them.
While cranking, with the side stand up, in first gear, with the clutch engaged and the gas cap open, I hear the fuel pump start, but I didn't notice any swirling. This was 2 months ago, and thinking back on it, it did seem that I did seem that I saw little movement. Of course, the cigarrete lighter I was using did't put out much light, so I can't say if this is really true. The guys at the shop said they could get gas to go thru, although they are pretty tired of the whole problem, and they want Sophia out of their shop, so maybe this aint so.
There is an idiot light on the display that says the side stand is down, bright yellow it is, but still not real visible in broad daylight. That's why it took me til that night to notice that, even with the side stand up, the idiot light still said it was down. Thus, the side stand switch replacement I did.
I haven't checked fuses or relays yet, its been in the shop ever since this happened. Likewise on any sensor checks, no checkee. Also likewise on the internal fuel line and filter, no checkee.
Sorry did I read this right? You were using a cigarette lighter to look in the tank?
Mate, I'm not sure anyone can help you if that's the case. I guess you're just lucky.
Probably best to stay off the road as well. It's safer for everyone else. :grin:
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I think he's winding us up.
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BTW, would'a saved a lot of BS (including mine) if he'd listened to Roper at response# 1...
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I was just goofin' with you guys, it was outside in afternoon sunlight and I was using a flashlight. Thanks for your concern, my first choice was a cigarette lighter!
Sorry did I read this right? You were using a cigarette lighter to look in the tank?
Mate, I'm not sure anyone can help you if that's the case. I guess you're just lucky.
Probably best to stay off the road as well. It's safer for everyone else. :grin:
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Totally oft topic...
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic003/strange%20logo1_zpsdjqul1vy.jpg)
Totally! :rolleyes:
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http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/mobile/Product.aspx?ProductCode=FP-HoseKit
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I was just goofin' with you guys, it was outside in afternoon sunlight and I was using a flashlight. Thanks for your concern, my first choice was a cigarette lighter!
Never doubted you for a minute! Well, maybe a minute.