Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: kenvil1 on November 14, 2016, 08:26:07 AM
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After admiring the new Triumph T120 engines, and at the risk of angering the purists, I was left wondering if the V7 would benefit from having mock carburetors fitted. It would certainly suit the retro look, but it might also hamper knee room in this case. Any thoughts?
(http://thumb.ibb.co/gxVtfa/T120.jpg) (http://ibb.co/gxVtfa)
photo
hosting (http://imgbb.com/)
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IMO why bother - if you want the look of an old bike - buy an old one
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I like the styled injector covers.
Of course, on the newest Guzzis, they're single throttle body, and that's under the seat.
But yeah, previous Guzzis would've benefited from some styling work in that area...
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Of course, on the newest Guzzis, they're single throttle body, and that's under the seat.
Yes, you're absolutely right. Returning to dual throttle bodies at this point would be a step backwards, but I still applaud Triumph for their creative design. Their Bobber has two separate intake chambers for a different exhaust sound, so maybe the V9 could follow suit since it's not a heritage model.
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I really wish Triumph had never used those covers. It seems creatively dishonest. Besides, it is glorifying a carburetor that I never cared for on the Meriden Triumphs. I think the Street Twin/T100 has a smartly styled TB cover that looks a great deal nicer...
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As an engineer, I find the concept of fake carburetors on a motorcycle to be a poor design choice. :bike-037:
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As an engineer, I find the concept of fake carburetors on a motorcycle to be a poor design choice. :bike-037:
:1:
I believe it is a bit silly to make a mock carb, especially with the single throttle body models.
-Ulrik
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As an engineer, I find the concept of fake carburetors on a motorcycle to be a poor design choice. :bike-037:
plus 1 , to me its akin to fake carbon fiber ..its either real or its not
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What do I know? but I am quite keen on the new Triumph look.
It's got to look like something-and I don't figure a customer would think it's a real carb-it fits the look and style of the bike to my eye.
Asking a serious question here. As an engineer what should it look like?
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As a long time member of the smelly finger club, I think the covers are brilliant.
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If it doesn't make it go better, handle better or stop better it's a piece of worthless shite.
Imitation carburettor covers! I fart on the heads of people who dream up such blatherskitish nonsense! Off to the gulags with them! Immediately!
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What do I know? but I am quite keen on the new Triumph look.
It's got to look like something-and I don't figure a customer would think it's a real carb-it fits the look and style of the bike to my eye.
Asking a serious question here. As an engineer what should it look like?
The serious answer is what should it smell like?
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I like it when everything on a bike has a function . I can see what everything is supposed to do . I look at it , and it makes sense .
In the form vs function balance , I lean heavily toward function , but also understand other's need for cosmetic enhancement .
I can imagine the pressure imposed on designers by the marketing guys .
The fake Amal Monoblocks remind me of the kid's bicycles with plastic engine looking objects attached , to pretend that it's a motorcycle .
My grandson's pal has one that has a throttle feature ; turn throttle , make noise . Vroom Vroom .
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Form before fuction? BS!
Spend the money on making the bike better.
Next thing ya know they will include do rags.
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I agree, fake has no place on a a motorbike. I didn't like the fake induction scoops on certain year Nevada. And while the fake carbs look nice, we all known they are fake and thus shit!
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The fake carbs on Triumphs don't bother me near as much as the fake sump on the Ducati MH900E.
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Why not buy an old Triumph and put fake injectors on it? At least that might increase the resale value by a few cents. :grin:
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overhere we can get mock cylinder cover to make your 200cc single to look like a V-twin.
(http://i65.tinypic.com/1z34bit.jpg)
(http://i64.tinypic.com/2h2norc.jpg)
it is made from cast metal and do help to cool the engine :grin:
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The fake carbs on Triumphs don't bother me near as much as the fake sump on the Ducati MH900E.
my mate bought one recently and I told him that the best part of the entire bike is the finned sump.
The next second he told me that is it actually a bolt on fake piece... the conversation went silent for a few seconds before we laughed embarrassingly.
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What is crazy is that Triumph originally made the Bonneville with carburetors, but they didn't look anything like Amals...they were the ubiquitous Keihin CVKs:
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c229/JamesBagley/FuelFilter.jpg)
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What is crazy is that Triumph originally made the Bonneville with carburetors, but they didn't look anything like Amals...they were the ubiquitous Keihin CVKs:
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c229/JamesBagley/FuelFilter.jpg)
I think that's a real CVK on the early Bonnie's
this is the fake CVK on later fuel injected engine.
(http://www.triumphrat.net/attachments/air-cooled-twins-talk/1563d1191037519-fuel-injection-on-parallel-twins-rat-t100efi-2.jpg)
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Well, they have to look like something. It's a throttle body styled like a carb.
I'll ask again-what should they look like? Serious question-not trying to stir the pot-the election did plenty of that!
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Well, they have to look like something. It's a throttle body styled like a carb.
I'll ask again-what should they look like? Serious question-not trying to stir the pot-the election did plenty of that!
*sigh*
You're not getting the part where an engineer deals in function. What its "supposed to look like" isn't as much of a concern. It's what it performs like that matters.
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*sigh*
You're not getting the part where an engineer deals in function. What its "supposed to look like" isn't as much of a concern. It's what it performs like that matters.
The engineer has one parameter: make it hard for the service techs to get to..... :wink:
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Just a question , what percentage of the general population are engineers ? You guys are ignoring the fact that Triumph sales increase almost every year , so they are doing something right . Most folks are making an emotional decision even buying a motorcycle . I love my engineer friends , but let's face it , most people don't "think" like engineers :laugh:
Dusty
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Your probably right Dusty, but were not most folks, we ride Moto Guzzi! :laugh:
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I made the mistake of asking my father, a mechanical engineer, the glass half-empty or half-full question. His answer: "Somebody spec-ed the wrong size glass..."
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:popcorn:
These are for looks, kind of like putting a number plate on the Racer. No it doesn't make it handle better or go faster, but it looks cool, and if you want to call it a poseur, go ahead.
The new Triumph engines are made to look "retro" from the cylinder fins to the fake carbs.
I like retro and I thought that the V7 line up was, but I guess not according to other members here.
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Right but the v7 doesn't have fake engine parts, at least that I know of.
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Your probably right Dusty, but were not most folks, we ride Moto Guzzi! :laugh:
Seems we have had a recent discussion re our , err , um , well eccentricities :laugh:
I made the mistake of asking my father, a mechanical engineer, the glass half-empty or half-full question. His answer: "Somebody spec-ed the wrong size glass..."
:laugh: Sounds about right :thumb: We have a large glass plant in Muskogee , and several years ago I made friends with an engineer that worked for them . A question re the operation led to a long dissertation about how "If we could just automate everything" :grin:
Dusty
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Just a question , what percentage of the general population are engineers ? You guys are ignoring the fact that Triumph sales increase almost every year , so they are doing something right . Most folks are making an emotional decision even buying a motorcycle . I love my engineer friends , but let's face it , most people don't "think" like engineers :laugh:
Dusty
I might think that many riders buying retro style Triumphs don't even know it's cover styled to look like a carb and likely have no idea what Amal Monobloc means... Like you say, they like the way it looks...
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Sorry for the "sigh".
But, if looks don't matter and just function-it could be argued that the throttle bodies on the Triumph work just fine. Would that have a measurable increase in performance if they looked different? And given the bike's price point would it even matter?
As for "any part that doesn't make it go faster (and such) is worthless", again, it would appear the Triumph is ok there, too.
Now, I'm not too stupid. Not trying to take on Pete, or anyone else. But it sure seems like Triumph made a decision to capture a certain look or style they feel the market will embrace. Using Bonnie sales as a barometer it seems they have had reasonable success. And does that not also reflect in part on those of us who embrace the V7? Under powered we're told. Bias ply tires. Yadda yadda yadda. Who cares? We love the V7 precisely because it is what it is.
Good interesting discussion I'd say.
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Sorry for the "sigh".
But, if looks don't matter and just function-it could be argued that the throttle bodies on the Triumph work just fine. Would that have a measurable increase in performance if they looked different? And given the bike's price point would it even matter?
As for "any part that doesn't make it go faster (and such) is worthless", again, it would appear the Triumph is ok there, too.
Now, I'm not too stupid. Not trying to take on Pete, or anyone else. But it sure seems like Triumph made a decision to capture a certain look or style they feel the market will embrace. Using Bonnie sales as a barometer it seems they have had reasonable success. And does that not also reflect in part on those of us who embrace the V7? Under powered we're told. Bias ply tires. Yadda yadda yadda. Who cares? We love the V7 precisely because it is what it is.
Good interesting discussion I'd say.
Believe me, I'm not trying to 'Take On' anybody on this issue either. I just think that cosmetic dross like this is odious. Others may well feel differently, thats fine, its not a life or death matter.
Also, FWIW, I'm really enjoying my V7 'Racer'! Its a great little bike, it could just be a hundred times greater if that lovely little powerplant was put in a chassis that had been designed after dinosaurs became extinct! The fact that it has a gross fuel tank doesn't help either but other than that its fun, fun, fun!
Pete
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Form vs function. Buick portholes.
http://www.autofocus.ca/news-events/features/design-icons-the-reason-buick-s-portholes-are-no-longer-functional
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Agreed.
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My Buick MC with factory side car was a 4 holer .
Dusty
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Styling to imitate function is not new to Triumph...Even the old Triumph Co did it... This new for 68 twin leading shoe drum brake on a 650 Triumph gives an illusion of a brake disc that was fresh technology on bikes at that time..Japanese bikes had similar styling clues, four mufflers on a four cylinder engine to show off the cylinder count even though a 4-1 exhaust was lighter, less expensive and more efficient...
I believe the Buick port holes were not to imitate heat extractors but to imitate exhaust stubs on WW2 aircraft that did influence postwar car styling
(http://www.classic-british-motorcycles.com/images/68Tri-T120-TLS.jpg)
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Interesting. I bought a 1968 triumph when I was nineteen, and I never knew the faceplate for the front brake was intended to imitate a disc; all I know is that I liked how it looked. I had mine glass-beaded and polished and I had the levers, the spring, and the linkage chromed. The finished product looked awesome.
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Not sure the ring on the twin leader was purposely designed to mimic a disc , read somewhere that it was engineered as a stiffening ring . This might not be correct , Rough , do you have info on this ?
Dusty
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Some of those old bikes had those rings to dissipated heat from the brakes, but often the bike was just imitating features you might see at a racetrack. My '60 R60 had a hubcap on the hubs...
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c229/JamesBagley/6c7a715fe52d2d349e347c6a4b1663d6.jpg)
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Some of those old bikes had those rings to dissipated heat from the brakes, but often the bike was just imitating features you might see at a racetrack. My '60 R60 had a hubcap on the hubs...
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c229/JamesBagley/6c7a715fe52d2d349e347c6a4b1663d6.jpg)
Great pic .
Of course it begs the question , just how many very large Detroit products can you get in one un-staged photograph :shocked:
Dusty
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Meh... Put me firmly in the camp that likes the look.
I mean for gawd's sake a throttle body is the modern descendent of the carb, just it only meters air and not fuel. So why not pay homage to the past and style it to look like something interesting, arguably beautiful.
If you want nothing but function that basically disregards form there are dozens of bikes from JAPanInc. or even most BMWs these days that offer such a thing.
Personally i think there should always be a balance of form and function, a blending of art and engineering. I think this detail maybe pushes the envelope of my tastes, but certainly I appreciate the details.
Other people will think a CARC "looks" good, and I admit I loved the way mine worked, but never warmed to its looks.
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Meh... Put me firmly in the camp that likes the look. Other people will think a CARC "looks" good, and I admit I loved the way mine worked, but never warmed to its looks.
Put me in the camp that likes the faux carbs on the T120. They have to look like something .... why not pay homage to the carbs that came on the original bike?
Oddly enough, I think the CARC final drive looks ok too. It not only looks the business, it is the business.
Bob
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Put me in the camp that likes the faux carbs on the T120. They have to look like something .... why not pay homage to the carbs that came on the original bike?
Oddly enough, I think the CARC final drive looks ok too. It not only looks the business, it is the business.
Bob
I get it, the CARC looks more uh modernly mechanical, that said it took me a while to warm to its looks. I'll say it got better looking as I enjoyed the function, but it's nice to be attracted from the start and not to have to grow to love or like...
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Great pic .
Of course it begs the question , just how many very large Detroit products can you get in one un-staged photograph :shocked:
Dusty
The folks across the street also kept a black '78 Lincoln in the garage. The doors on my '77 Mercury Grand Marquis were as long as a Smart Car...
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Styling to imitate function is not new to Triumph...Even the old Triumph Co did it...
You can say that again. Edward Turner designed the original Speed Twin -- the stylistic twin-cylinder forebear of the classic 650's -- to imitate the single-cylinder, twin-exhaust bikes then dominating the market. That's where that tapered cylinder leading up to a large cylinder head came from. Or so I read.
Moto
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You can say that again. Edward Turner designed the original Speed Twin -- the stylistic twin-cylinder forebear of the classic 650's -- to imitate the single-cylinder, twin-exhaust bikes then dominating the market. That's where that tapered cylinder leading up to a large cylinder head came from. Or so I read.
Moto
Uh yeah , Turner so hated the look of swinging arm rear suspension that we got the sprung hub , a complete disaster . AND , later after Turner retired we got the Beezumph Triples that were styled by a company that designed toasters and vacuum cleaners :shocked: Good grief , those ray gun mufflers were strange looking devices :laugh:
Dusty
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Well....the news says that electric cars need to have a noise maker because they're too quiet. Some cars already emit noise. So fake exhaust mufflers as speakers with fake engine sounds. :grin: :grin: :grin:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_warning_sounds
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it looks so cool to kick start a guzzi twin
doesn't matter if it is real or fake :rolleyes:
(https://cdn.rideapart.com/wp-content/uploads/2013%2F09%2F2013-Moto-Guzzi-V7-Stone-Model-03.jpg)
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What is the best way to synchronize mock carbs?
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What is the best way to synchronize mock carbs?
I guess you'd have to use a digital vacuum gauge that's made to look like analog gauges.
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What is the best way to synchronize mock carbs?
Mockometer ?
Dusty
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What is the best way to synchronize mock carbs?
Well if they're actually throttle bodies then they have the exact same components which require synchronization, throttle plates.
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This German made "Synchroflow" is an excellent flow meter, shown here on my bike....No, not mock carbs :grin:
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5644/29857925163_64b4ccb997_c.jpg)
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Uh , Kev and Tony , seems you have misplaced something :grin:
Dusty
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Uh , Kev and Tony , seems you have misplaced something :grin:
Dusty
Nope, a joke isn't funny if it misses the mark, which it does, since you CAN synchronize throttle bodies whether or not they are styled like "mock" carburetors.
Which leads back to the silliness of the original objections against them, but hey, people often mock (pun intended) what they don't understand. :evil: :tongue: :boozing:
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So , is it a cover or is it integral to the throttle body ? If it's a cover , dirt will gather behind it .
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Nope, a joke isn't funny if it misses the mark, which it does, since you CAN synchronize throttle bodies whether or not they are styled like "mock" carburetors.
Which leads back to the silliness of the original objections against them, but hey, people often mock (pun intended) what they don't understand. :evil: :tongue: :boozing:
Yeah , forrgot that Jim and I aren't sophisticated like you East coat boys ...
Dusty
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Yeah , forrgot that Jim and I aren't sophisticated like you East coat boys ...
Dusty
Passive-aggressive much?
Nah, I'm just pointing out that it's another case of silly tilting and windmills...not that I don't tilt for fun too.
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I put these in the same vein as the fake kickers on Harley's.
On many of my bikes, if I have to remove a cover for maintenance and it is just cosmetic...it may not be put back on.
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Luddite that I am I don't mind carb synchronization on my Honda 750 Aero.
It is as simple as it can get.
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I have the electric starter on my HD Recon. as a decoration. Easier to kick. Too lazy to fix it.
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The only purely decorative thing on my trike is the alternator rotor screw sticking out of the cover at a funny angle. It's there only because it appeals to my sense of humor. Otherwise I don't even have unnrcessary chrome.