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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: stevet on November 24, 2016, 07:24:00 AM
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My nephew is getting back on a motorcycle next season after 2 years off since selling his previous Shadow 1100. He has an 8 year old daughter who in the next year or 2 will be tall enough to firmly reach the pegs of his soon-to-purchase FJR, buying from a friend of mine. (She can reach the pegs on my FJR now, but more growth will be safer.) The bike will also have a passenger backrest provision.
So, along with size/height, when did you know the behavior and maturity traits of your child were right to be a passenger on a motorcycle? And any other words of wisdom (child size safety gear, travel distance limits, etc)? The kiddo is excited for her dad to get another motorcycle, and to be a passenger as well. Those are good signs... And financially, he believes in very good insurance coverage, just in case.
Thanks,
Steve.
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OK , I have a STRONG opinion on this topic. My Boys now are in their 20s and I NEVER would have considered putting one on the back of my motorcycle. I know a parent pretty much can do antything they chose with their offspring, but for me their safety was always #1. I have seen small childeren ASLEEP while transported behind the bike driver with NO safe way to address them flipping off..Their choice..but not one I endorse. Let the opinions fly. this is only my own.
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I started mine out with little rides. You know, to the close by store riding defensively and slow until I knew they were ready. Same way my dad did with me. Now my daughters have tens of thousands of miles riding with me and they will both tell you that is their fondest memories with me.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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OK , I have a STRONG opinion on this topic. My Boys now are in their 20s and I NEVER would have considered putting one on the back of my motorcycle. I know a parent pretty much can do antything they chose with their offspring, but for me their safety was always #1. I have seen small childeren ASLEEP while transported behind the bike driver with NO safe way to address them flipping off..Their choice..but not one I endorse. Let the opinions fly. this is only my own.
Really, I do appreciate your opinion and sharing your observations, this is exactly the sort of information I'm looking for. Thank you for taking the time to write.
Steve
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I started mine out with little rides. You know, to the close by store riding defensively and slow until I knew they were ready. Same way my dad did with me. Now my daughters have tens of thousands of miles riding with me and they will both tell you that is their fondest memories with me.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I am sure you daughters have fond memories with you as my children do of the things we did together. I remember as a child riding in the back of pick up trucks, going out to sea on trawlers as an adolescent, many things that I now may not chose for a child for safety judgments. My transition through parenthood had me reconsider the thresholds of safety I was previously comfortable with. I appreciate and understand that each parent's decisions almost always produce a wonderful adult no matter what variation of care and exploration we provide as their early guardian of safety. It's all good. Thanks for your opinion too.
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My oldest, now 18, started riding with me when she was 7. I made sure she had full gear (pants, boots, armored jacket, gloves, FF helmet) and only took her on bikes with backrests or topcases.
I don't think she ever fell asleep back there like my wife and my ex both did at times. I kept the rides with her short when she was younger.
But the fact is there is little or no risk of someone falling off asleep I know from hundreds of miles with a passenger in that condition. At least if there is a backrest of some sort. They are simply too well contained between be, the backrest, and their legs on either side of the bike.
My next youngest is almost ready to start riding with me and she's excited to do so. I'll use the same requirements. She's already ridden over 1000 miles on her mom's Ducati though it was all in utero.
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When my daughter was small, I found a small helmet and would take her on rides with use. Three up, on the motorcycle. I was stopped a number of times, but never ticketed, because I wasn't breaking any law. She couldn't fall off. She had as much protection (helmets, jackets, etc.) as the two of use.
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OK , I have a STRONG opinion on this topic. My Boys now are in their 20s and I NEVER would have considered putting one on the back of my motorcycle. I know a parent pretty much can do antything they chose with their offspring, but for me their safety was always #1. I have seen small childeren ASLEEP while transported behind the bike driver with NO safe way to address them flipping off..Their choice..but not one I endorse. Let the opinions fly. this is only my own.
Anything thrilling in this life, there's danger involved. It is your responsibility as a man to teach your progeny not to grow up scaredy pants. Their Mom's sure not going to do it.
(http://laterdudette.com/images/safetythird.jpg)
I told all my grandchildren they could ride as soon as their feet could reach the pegs. Youngest girl got impatient, came over one day wearing sneakers with prolly four inch soles, insisting she could reach. Had to be a man of my word.
It's fun.
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Get them full gear, teach them to sit still, and go for it. I have fond memories of riding with my father and uncles on the back of their bikes.
I lived in Europe for several years where they use motorcycles as utility vehicles more than toys and kids regularly ride with their parents to school, the train station, etc.. Same in most Asian and Middle Eastern countries I've visited. People in the US somehow think they need an Expedition or Suburban as soon as they have a kid...it's just not so. I started riding with my son on the back when he was about 7 or so and he loved it from the start. My daughter rode with me a few times and wasn't interested. I didn't push either of them to ride. Today they are in their 20's and both know how to ride but don't own motorcycles (simply their choice, not because of financial reasons).
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Safest way is in a sidecar.
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Maybe the thing to do is ask yourself, what will be the questions you will put to yourself if IT Happens...Will you be satisfied with the answers that you have to give yourself. There'll be nothing that will make it seem anything other than your fault, (even if it wasn't). The chances of a crash don't escalate, but the consequences are off the scale. BTW, how in the hell could you be safer in a sidecar ???!
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Your state's laws may have an age requirement too. Check. An appropriate sized helmet should be fitted.
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My sidecar doesn't fall over. I have had 11 of them since 68 and driven intelligently they are as safe as a motorcycle can get. More so than trikes, I've had one of those. An 8 year old child has enough understanding to not climb around when it is moving. Younger could be a problem. When I have carried younger ones it was on moms' lap.
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:1: on sidecars. Used the hack more with the youngest. A side benefit is that they're the "cool" kid in jr. high.
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I have equally STRONG opinions. The safest thing for them is to leave them home, don't climb any trees, keep your fingers out of frog ponds, don't eat food at anyone else's home. Used to carry wife Regina on the back but she tried falling to sleep on boring roads. Quickly put her through an MSF class and bought her a smallblock Guzzi. She now has her 100K pin and rides EV. Started both of our sons at age 5. It was easier with a motorcyclist wife. Falling to sleep on monotonous roads was a real issue for them. From back there, they can't see the things that the pilot can and thus have less stimulation. My choices were to deprive them and leave them home safely or to find ways to best manage the risk. To me, falling off while sleeping was far more likely to occur than a crash incident. I had to face the most probable, not most severe form of risk. I adapted a seat belt system to attach the child to ME, not to the bike (controversial). I can't risk them falling off on an otherwise safe ride. Belt lets them sleep and can't fall off and signals me when they are starting to nod off at an odd angle. I can't risk them physically attached to a 500 pound moto tumbling down the road. For ME (YMMV) the safest I could do was to have them tumble with me in an incident. Yes, I was seriously careful but still we all recognize that unplanned doodoo can happen. Both sons eventually got moto license. One has chosen to step away. I never pushed. If you don't WANT to be on a moto then you don't belong there. The other is an administrator for a moto touring company and does many more miles per year than I do. I now have a granddaughter that just turned 3. Her parents are on board with waiting until 5 for the first ride. Surely back to the belting system once again. And her dad is the one who stepped away!
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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My sidecar doesn't fall over. I have had 11 of them since 68 and driven intelligently they are as safe as a motorcycle can get. More so than trikes, I've had one of those. An 8 year old child has enough understanding to not climb around when it is moving. Younger could be a problem. When I have carried younger ones it was on moms' lap.
Jim, yours (and my) sidecar is a LOT heavier and wider than a comparable solo, has problems with assymetric forces under braking as you are aware, in a right hand turn (in your country) there are reduced options available if the stuff hits the fan. Brake and you will run wide, increase your turn rate and you know what will happen, and if you collide with something solid you don't have the benefit of perhaps being thrown clear to some degree. It doesn't matter if you've had 50 sidecars over 75 years, you are a skilled operator and not everyone will be able to match your skills. I'm not suggesting you're unsafe but you are not "safer" than a solo just because you say so. Reckon you need a massive amount of experience as you do, before chucking a child in and having a go.
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Obviously, risk/reward. The hack is more visible in traffic so safer from my point of view.
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The key phrase in my post was "ride intelligently." That means don't travel at the same speeds as a solo bike, slow down ahead of turns and don't put yourself in situations where power out is your choice of options.
Powering out will pull hard towards the sidecar, Braking hard will pull away from the sidecar , unless the sidecar has brakes. On a solo bike, the phrase when in doubt power out, is what many go by. On my sidecar rig I believe in ,
"When in doubt, wait it out." Let the other vehicle pass in front of you even if you may be in the right of away. The other vehicle doesn't give a rip if you are more vulnerable. Many years ago ( 60s ) I remember reading that in England,
sidecar machines paid the lowest insurance premiums of any motorcycles and I believe cars too. Since they had a profit motive , they must have known something about Brit riders riding state of mind.
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Obviously, risk/reward. The hack is more visible in traffic so safer from my point of view.
Agreed. The sidecar is just unusual enough that drivers "see" it. I've never had a car do the usual things they do to motorcycles when I was driving the rig.
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Your state's laws may have an age requirement too. Check. An appropriate sized helmet should be fitted.
Motorcycle laws here in MN, https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/ots/mmsc/motorcycle-license/Pages/laws-regulations.aspx (https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/ots/mmsc/motorcycle-license/Pages/laws-regulations.aspx)
Passengers under the age of 18 must wear a DOT-approved helmet. 169.974 subd. 4 (a)
Passengers must be able to reach both footrests while seated on the passenger seat. 169.974 subd. 5 (b)
Based on these passenger requirements, she's ready to ride pillion now. (Well, after getting her a helmet.)
What about the other safety gear? I imagine the only full body coverage riding gear he will find is going to be mainly motocross type gear, correct? But that wouldn't include jackets and overpants, like the typical street riding gear for adults. I know Aerostich doesn't offer kids sizes.
Does anyone have ideas on street style riding gear for children? In particular, the jacket and pants? I guess it's time to search the usual manufacturers and see what comes up in extra small.
Thanks,
Steve.
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A tisket, a tasket,
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic004/happy%20lad%20scooter_zpsmremyt75.jpg)
Stick 'em in a wicker basket!
:laugh:
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I started my boys from the time they could walk. At the age of 5 they were taking overnight camping trips. I used a belt with Velcro binding around me and them in the event they would fall asleep, when they did they just leaned against me and the sleeping bags were attached to the top of the saddle bags which put them in a little cocoon. Now, all that being told, now days I would not do it! The time I'm talking of was in the early 80's before texting and herds of traffic. I have even stopped ridding with my wife on board in the past two years.
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I don't think she ever fell asleep back there like my wife and my ex both did at times.
Wait , I think we may have a clue to something here :shocked:
Dusty
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My sidecar doesn't fall over. I have had 11 of them since 68 and driven intelligently they are as safe as a motorcycle can get. More so than trikes, I've had one of those. An 8 year old child has enough understanding to not climb around when it is moving. Younger could be a problem. When I have carried younger ones it was on moms' lap.
Sidecars are interesting relics and I understand the less than easy dynamics of riding one, but I would never consider calling them a safe
motorcycle or intimate that they are a motorcycle.
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Clue?
And how come a moderator can't figure out how to not respond inside the quote?
[emoji13]
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Did it only ONCE w/my youngest, Joey.. took him to the Wi Guzzi rally.. several hours in the saddle both ways..He didn't complain but in hind sight it was kind of dangerous..
(https://photos.smugmug.com/All/i-T9sT8M4/0/M/DSCN0291-M.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/All/i-T9sT8M4/A)
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Clue?
And how come a moderator can't figure out how to not respond inside the quote?
[emoji13]
Oh bite me :laugh:
Sorry for your inability to recognize humor . Oh I almost forgot , you possess that highly refined big city sense of humor :shocked: :evil:
Dusty
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Well Sent KenKtk, that tells me that you don't own one, therefore cannot speak from experience.
A couple of borrowed rides may have introduced them but an extended ownership with tens of thousands
of miles imparts a lot more information.
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Pirsig was slightly perplexed why his son Chris didn't seem to be enjoying riding behind him , until realizing that Chris couldn't really see very well with his head buried in his back .
Dusty
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I have equally STRONG opinions. The safest thing for them is to leave them home, don't climb any trees, keep your fingers out of frog ponds, don't eat food at anyone else's home. Used to carry wife Regina on the back but she tried falling to sleep on boring roads. Quickly put her through an MSF class and bought her a smallblock Guzzi. She now has her 100K pin and rides EV. Started both of our sons at age 5. It was easier with a motorcyclist wife. Falling to sleep on monotonous roads was a real issue for them. From back there, they can't see the things that the pilot can and thus have less stimulation. My choices were to deprive them and leave them home safely or to find ways to best manage the risk. To me, falling off while sleeping was far more likely to occur than a crash incident. I had to face the most probable, not most severe form of risk. I adapted a seat belt system to attach the child to ME, not to the bike (controversial). I can't risk them falling off on an otherwise safe ride. Belt lets them sleep and can't fall off and signals me when they are starting to nod off at an odd angle. I can't risk them physically attached to a 500 pound moto tumbling down the road. For ME (YMMV) the safest I could do was to have them tumble with me in an incident. Yes, I was seriously careful but still we all recognize that unplanned doodoo can happen. Both sons eventually got moto license. One has chosen to step away. I never pushed. If you don't WANT to be on a moto then you don't belong there. The other is an administrator for a moto touring company and does many more miles per year than I do. I now have a granddaughter that just turned 3. Her parents are on board with waiting until 5 for the first ride. Surely back to the belting system once again. And her dad is the one who stepped away!
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
We may have discussed this before but what makes you think a child a fraction of your size is much less at risk strapped to YOU?
and what makes you think they would just fall off of they feel asleep?
I dunno I guess my evidence on the latter point is all anecdotal, but I just don't see how it would happen.
Haven't you seen someone sleep in a chair or on a plane? Have you ever seen someone sleeping in a chair just suddenly fall over?
On a bike they're even more secure, they're straddling something, and on many of the ones I've owned the passenger's legs are also straddling me to some extent. I'd know if they started to move, but then then it would take some significant movement to extract their legs and fall off.
Like I've said I've had passengers fall asleep on longer rides and it was never the slightest issue.
But man I wouldn't want to fall on one of my kids cause they were attached to me.
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Taken Probably 30 years ago with my dad. Spent a week out west every year sitting behind him, then riding behind when I turned 16. Been doing the same with my kids. Some beautiful memories in both cases. No issues yet. I do remember sleeping as a rider on those trips and my kids dose off sometimes too. But, that's my decision and chance I am willing to take I guess.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/h2R8wF/IMG_1093.jpg) (http://ibb.co/h2R8wF)
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Besides, Pirsig was crazy, certifiably crazy.
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The key phrase in my post was "ride intelligently." That means don't travel at the same speeds as a solo bike, slow down ahead of turns and don't put yourself in situations where power out is your choice of options.
Powering out will pull hard towards the sidecar, Braking hard will pull away from the sidecar , unless the sidecar has brakes. On a solo bike, the phrase when in doubt power out, is what many go by. On my sidecar rig I believe in ,
"When in doubt, wait it out." Let the other vehicle pass in front of you even if you may be in the right of away. The other vehicle doesn't give a rip if you are more vulnerable. Many years ago ( 60s ) I remember reading that in England,
sidecar machines paid the lowest insurance premiums of any motorcycles and I believe cars too. Since they had a profit motive , they must have known something about Brit riders riding state of mind.
Ok Jim, I just meant that the question in the original post related to a guy with nothing like the skill you'd have after all those years and I sorta thought what would happen in an emergency and with a child aboard !!! Anyway thanks for your input, after all those years you'd be entitled to an informed opinion.
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and what makes you think they would just fall off of they feel asleep?
I dunno I guess my evidence on the latter point is all anecdotal, but I just don't see how it would happen.
/quote]
What makes me think such is having gone through a situation where I did have to ride one-handed while physically restraining a sleeping passenger. Your evidence is anecdotal. Mine is empirical. I agree that I am presenting an induced risk by strapping the child to me. I evaluate that as less risky than riding unstrapped and having them fall off when no other external incident is involved. I evaluate that as less risky than strapping the child to the moto (which I have witnessed). I surmise that the only thing less risky than my choice is to leave the child at home. I'm not willing to go that route. You study all the possible variables. You evaluate risk/reward alternatives. You make the choice which best suits your analysis. YMMV.
The OP has asked a legitimate question about how and when to start riding with a child. He has received a variety of answers from people with practical experience. He now gets to digest and evaluate that spectrum of response and then make his own more-informed judgement of what he feels is a prudent practice going forward for him and his child or grandchild. Clearly, the need for strap restraint diminishes with advancing age and physical capability of the child. Wait longer until you can trust them not to sleep? Forget the passenger thing and wait until they are 16 and let them ride on their own? Discourage them from riding ever? It is all a matter of degree and one's personal evaluation.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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Safest way is in a sidecar.
And the most fun too...
(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15241320_1715459672104763_1839274370567222488_n.jpg?oh=9ce6166eff36f511aecac9e93bdb70cd&oe=58D39257)
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Besides, Pirsig was crazy, certifiably crazy.
Well , he was married with children :laugh: Pirsig is certainly an interesting study in human nature and behavior , possessing an IQ of 170 , with a pronounced lack of social skills . Still , he managed fairly well , and his hands on approach to life was different than many intellectuals . Always found it interesting that after an aborted career in academia he made a living assembling foreign made products , like swing sets , then reversing the process , only to reassemble the swing set so he could write an understandable set of instructions in English . Seems that would make most folks a bit nuts, but he thrived while doing so . A friend of mine in Nacogdoches knew Pirsig from his days at the University of Chicago , he told me "we all knew Bob was strange, we just didn't know how strange he really was" :laugh:
As a footnote , Pirsig is alive and well at the age of 88 , pretty amazing all things considered .
Dusty
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and what makes you think they would just fall off of they feel asleep?
I dunno I guess my evidence on the latter point is all anecdotal, but I just don't see how it would happen.
What makes me think such is having gone through a situation where I did have to ride one-handed while physically restraining a sleeping passenger.
Thank you for the response.
Would you mind educating us with some more details of that incident?
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Did it only ONCE w/my youngest, Joey.. took him to the Wi Guzzi rally.. several hours in the saddle both ways..He didn't complain but in hind sight it was kind of dangerous..
(https://photos.smugmug.com/All/i-T9sT8M4/0/M/DSCN0291-M.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/All/i-T9sT8M4/A)
Hi Brad, was there something in particular that makes you think riding with Joey was dangerous? How did you feel about it on the trip, and is your notion of danger a newer feeling, in retrospect?
How was Joey's experience on that trip? Nervous, scared, excited, willing...? He's looking genuinely happy in that photo. How does he feel about the experience now that time has passed? How old was he at the time of the trip?
Boy, I've seen enough of your videos that if I was a willing youngster I think I would have had a blast sitting behind you on the bike!
Thanks for bearing along with my questions.
Steve.
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Hi Brad, was there something in particular that makes you think riding with Joey was dangerous? How did you feel about it on the trip, and is your notion of danger a newer feeling, in retrospect? Yes it's in hindsight, just the general danger of motorcycling and riding home on Hwy 52, the most dangerous hwy in MN.
How was Joey's experience on that trip? Nervous, scared, excited, willing...? He's looking genuinely happy in that photo. How does he feel about the experience now that time has passed? How old was he at the time of the trip? mostly he was bored, about 10-11 I think..
Boy, I've seen enough of your videos that if I was a willing youngster I think I would have had a blast sitting behind you on the bike!
Thanks for bearing along with my questions.
Steve.
It's so easy to get in a crash that someone else causes in a blink of an eye.. His mother would have killed me.. we didn't tell her we were going..
He has good memories of it now ..
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Tyler started riding in the sidecar when he was 5. His first "long" trip was when he was 6 to the western NY rally. He made that trip again when he was 8 and has several thousand miles in the sidecar now that he is nine. When he was eight I made some passenger peg extenders for the EV so he could try riding behind me. He took to that very well, but prefers the sidecar because he can see better.
One thing I feel is very important is communications between the rider and the passenger. If I were not able to ask him questions going down the road, I wouldn't take him. As others have said, I believe these times together will be memories he will cherish always.
Tom
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Does he have a backrest of some type for the child to sit against?
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Quote from: Kev m on November 24, 2016, 11:30:17 PM (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=87269.msg1376308#msg1376308)Like I've said I've had passengers fall asleep on longer rides and it was never the slightest issue.
When my daughter was about 14, we were riding on a 100F degree day, and she passed out in the summer heat. When I noticed her helmet kept banging into my back, I pulled over. I got off the bike, and had one heck of a time getting her up and off of the seat. And she is a lightweight. At that point I stopped worrying about them falling off when they go to sleep or such.
(this was a Kawasaki Voyager / touring barge)
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I have a 6 year old son and we have been taking short rides to the ice-cream shop. He is so excited about it and it has been a special experience feeling his excitement and wonder while riding. I felt comfortable with his age as he has been racing BMX since he was 4 and he has a good ability to focus.
My �78 Lemans isn�t the greatest bike to with him, as it has a solo 1-1/2 style seat and we squish into it. He loves this bike, but I will only ride short low traffic trips this way. Other bike is a police Eldo with a solo seat. I will need to get another bike so we can ride properly ;p
I do worry about his future knowing he will ride. As a parent I want to protect him from everything, but understanding my own desires, it is up to me (and thus up to him) to take my/his risks and thrills
I feel the best I can do is to teach him to build skills and manage his own risks. He already understands this racing BMX.
If he has interest with motorcycles I would like to get him onto a dirt bike to learn about riding and risks, before he is a teenager, or street legal to ride.
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i started bringing my daughter to school on the bike when she was 4, the first longer ride up to 20 miles when she was 7.
the first real long rides ( up to 400 miles/day) when she was 13.
Yes she does sleep on the back of the bike,
so does my wife, she has done that for the last 30 years, i never considered that a problem....
Basically is you feel safe with your kid on the back, go for it, the kid will love it!
he will have fond lasting memories of the ride.
if you dont feel safe, get in the car...
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It's so easy to get in a crash that someone else causes in a blink of an eye.. His mother would have killed me.. we didn't tell her we were going..
He has good memories of it now ..
Thanks, Brad.
Steve.
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When I was about 10 years old our neighbor from across the street… Joey… Returned home from Vietnam… He had his beloved 1952 Indian chief out of the garage and riding in no time… I remember very clearly The many times he would ask me if I wanted to go for a ride… Jumped up and sat on the back of the gas tank and he would let me shift that thing just like a little truck.
When I had my 51 WL I took all three of my kids out on our rural roads in the same manner... Probably not exactly the safest thing to do… But I will surely remember the reflection of their faces I could see in the back of the headlight bucket with humongous grins as they clunked through all three gears again just like a little truck. They were 10 eight and six... And to this day remind me of how much fun it was for them.
I always stayed out of town… Mainly on rural back roads... I'll do it again with my grandkids when that comes... I always feel safer with them in front of me and my arms wrapped around them ...no way they could fall off and they felt like they were steering.
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When my daughter was small, I found a small helmet and would take her on rides with use. Three up, on the motorcycle. I was stopped a number of times, but never ticketed, because I wasn't breaking any law.
Yeah you were, could she reach both footpegs from the seated position ?
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Well Sent KenKtk, that tells me that you don't own one, therefore cannot speak from experience.
A couple of borrowed rides may have introduced them but an extended ownership with tens of thousands
of miles imparts a lot more information.
That's all I meant Jim.
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Huzo , I had my first and only real injury motorbike crash at the age of 4 . Like you , we had a neighbor with a MC , what I am fairly certain was either a late Knucklehead or early Panhead . It was a rigid frame model for sure , with a spring post seat . Anyway , he would perch me behind him somehow , and we would ride around the neighborhood at what felt like high speeds , although he probably never exceeded 25 MPH . One day we were turning into a driveway , and I lost purchase , slid off to the left , and somehow my little left foot got tangled up in the works . Broken leg , torn ligaments in my knee , and a severely bruised left side . 6 months in a cast , and some surgery were required . Why do I bring this up , well , I couldn't wait to get back on a motorbike . As for what anyone else does re their own children , all I would ask is to exercise some common sense , much like we should do in any circumstance .
Dusty
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And her dad is the one who stepped away!
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
Thant's what grandparents are there for!!! :wink:
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My two boys rode with me on my ’97 Kawasaki Voyager. With that set-up there was no way they could ever fall off (due to falling asleep), and they did take a few naps.
My youngest girl has been my riding partner ever since she was able to comfortably reach the passenger pegs on the EV. The bike is equipped with a topcase/backrest. I did need to get a wireless intercom so we could communicate and, more importantly, she could listen to her music library.
She is now 15 and, so far, still interested in occasionally riding pillion with the old man. :thumb:
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Photo 1, 2003. Just got the Scrambler running after 18 years of hibernation. To celebrate, took my youngest, 11 years old, to visit Mum and Dad, a 400km round trip. A year later, with a 1200GS, I returned to riding, and my kids all shared in the adventures. I took my Dad on 5 tours, totalling 15,000km and 40 days on the bike, over 5 years, until his passing in 2009.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/dHAOVa/P1020017.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dHAOVa)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/hdZiVa/P1020014.jpg) (http://ibb.co/hdZiVa)
image upload (http://imgbb.com/)
Photo 2, 2016. Youngest daughter joined me for a trip to visit Mum again. Since Dad's passing, Mum (now 80) has ridden pillion with me on 7 tours, totalling 50 days on the bike over 7 years.
My 2 cents?
Life is short.
Make memories to last a lifetime.
Stephen
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Quote from: Kev m on November 24, 2016, 11:30:17 PM (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=87269.msg1376308#msg1376308)Like I've said I've had passengers fall asleep on longer rides and it was never the slightest issue.
When my daughter was about 14, we were riding on a 100F degree day, and she passed out in the summer heat. When I noticed her helmet kept banging into my back, I pulled over. I got off the bike, and had one heck of a time getting her up and off of the seat. And she is a lightweight. At that point I stopped worrying about them falling off when they go to sleep or such.
(this was a Kawasaki Voyager / touring barge)
That sure is a hot day for a passenger, I wouldn't be worried about falling asleep either if I was that close to dying of dehydration, nice job.
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Huzo , I had my first and only real injury motorbike crash at the age of 4 . Like you , we had a neighbor with a MC , what I am fairly certain was either a late Knucklehead or early Panhead . It was a rigid frame model for sure , with a spring post seat . Anyway , he would perch me behind him somehow , and we would ride around the neighborhood at what felt like high speeds , although he probably never exceeded 25 MPH . One day we were turning into a driveway , and I lost purchase , slid off to the left , and somehow my little left foot got tangled up in the works . Broken leg , torn ligaments in my knee , and a severely bruised left side . 6 months in a cast , and some surgery were required . Why do I bring this up , well , I couldn't wait to get back on a motorbike . As for what anyone else does re their own children , all I would ask is to exercise some common sense , much like we should do in any circumstance .
Dusty
Jeez, couldn't agree more Dusty, am I the one you meant to put this point to ? Looks to me like heaps of these blokes get away with something through a happy mixture of good luck/good judgement and then use that as proof that everyone else is worrying about bugger all. We've all gotten away with stupid stuff but at least can we admit that we owe a fair amount of it to good luck ?
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Jeez, couldn't agree more Dusty, am I the one you meant to put this point to ? Looks to me like heaps of these blokes get away with something through a happy mixture of good luck/good judgement and then use that as proof that everyone else is worrying about bugger all. We've all gotten away with stupid stuff but at least can we admit that we owe a fair amount of it to good luck ?
Hell Bud , I am still getting away with stupid stuff :rolleyes: The real point , lots of childhood activities are dangerous , football in all of its variations , skateboarding , chasing girls (gasp). Growing up with a high percentage of the truly dangerous wild creatures in the world probably
seems normal to you and most other Ozzies , but seems a reckless way to live to most American parents .
Dusty
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Don't know that we're that different Dusty.
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Don't know that we're that different Dusty.
Well , WE aren't that different , but WE may not be normal Bud :shocked: :laugh:
Dusty
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That sure is a hot day for a passenger, I wouldn't be worried about falling asleep either if I was that close to dying of dehydration, nice job.
That's a pretty big assumption.
As for assumption of risk, how far is too far.
I find a little rural motorcycling with a well seasoned rider and their well prepared child to be fairly middle of the road.
I wonder statistically what is worse for potential injury that or:
Skiing/snowboarding
Swimming/snorkeling
Boating/tubing/water skiing
Contact sports
Trampolines (ask a pediatrician or ER doc)
Should kids not play on playgrounds, or hike/climb, how about bicycles?
In a world where children are often neglected or abused I think parents who love and take time to share their lives with their kids are generally on the right track.
Sure not everyone wants to see their tween or teen solo in an airplane or attempt to sail around the world, that would be a bridge too far for me. But jeez taking my eldest daughter to or from school on rural country roads between Amish farms was a great memory.
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That's a pretty big assumption.
What's the big assumption Kev ?
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What's the big assumption Kev ?
Dying of dehydration.
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Gee wiz Kev ! The young girl passed out due to the heat and was lifted off the bike, what comes next if you don't intervene...
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Gee wiz Kev ! The young girl passed out due to the heat and was lifted off the bike, what comes next if you don't intervene...
You're making assumptions with very few details.
You have no idea if heat was the only factor in her falling asleep, whether or not dehydration was a part of the story, whether or not fatigue, diet, or some other related health condition was part of the story.
Hell you don't even know if she is normally such a heavy sleeper that it wouldn't be unusual for her to sleep through being lifted off the bike.
I've got kids that can fall asleep at the drop of a hat with AC/DC blasting. The motion of a vehicle just increases the effect.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161126/ce879a108d06d833c83fea7b074f79b9.jpg)
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Hey, I'd like to thank everyone who contributed insights, observations, and memories to my inquiry. Your thoughts are appreciated.
Safe and happy travels to all this holiday season!
Steve.
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I was riding my kids from about 4 or 5 on. At first they sat on a little pad I built into the front of the seat over the back of the tank, using the boot guards behind the carbs as footrests. I took one or the other to school, friend's, whatever regularly. Later they rode behind. When my son (Jackal and R80/7) was 8 we went to the world fair in Vancouver, BC. I took the danger of falling off asleep or otherwise seriously, and got around it by packng the sleeping bags on top of the side bags and making him a big easy chair with side bumpers. The bike already had one of those tall sissy bars we all ran in the 70s. No problems during any of my travels with children, and they both had thousands of miles under them that they wouldn't trade for anything. Bcck then it was coool to get chauffered to somewhere and show up on a big bike.
I also had a servicar that I'd pile the kids and dog into and go to town for groceries and mail. The dog wore a leather helmet and goggles and got all excited when I got thm from the helmet rack. He rteally liked to go for a ride! The servicar was kinda scary over about 40mph. We didn't go out on it much.
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What does a servicar look like Rodekyll ?
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Just a few other observations.
1. Falling asleep. Yes, I have seen people fall asleep in a chair and then fall over. Enough times that it would concern me on a bike unless they were 'locked in' by luggage or such. My sister-in-law used to fall asleep on the back of their Gold WIng all the time. WIth the armrests and trunk there was no danger of her falling off.
2. I have only ridden on the back of a bike a few times, first time I was 8. I hated it. ANd I still hate it. I also will not ride with someone behind me as I don't like that either. For me it is two things, I don't want the responsibility if the bike crashes and I don't like how the bike feels two up.
3. My wife rode behind her dad a lot when she was younger. Until the day they hit a patch of sand on the road and they went down. She hasn't been on a bike since and won't ever get on one.
4. I did give my kids rides when they were little, sitting on the tank in front of me (5yr old). They never wanted another ride. And, no they weren't scared. To them it was boring. Both are uncomfortable being passengers in a car, they'd rather be the driver (something they got from dad :) ). Both like sporty cars. Son thought about a bike until a friend of his lost a leg in a bike accident.
So from my point of view I would say, get a sidecar or get them their own bike. :)
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Just a few other observations.
1. Falling asleep. Yes, I have seen people fall asleep in a chair and then fall over. Enough times that it would concern me on a bike unless they were 'locked in' by luggage or such. My sister-in-law used to fall asleep on the back of their Gold WIng all the time. WIth the armrests and trunk there was no danger of her falling off.
I literally have never seen someone fall off a chair sleeping.... Roll out of bed yes, but fall off a chair, I just can't picture it. Very different experiences I guess.
But something in your post reminded me of something I didn't vocalize earlier in this thread. I mentioned a back rest, but didn't specifically mention luggage. I'm not sure I've ever taken a passenger on a bike that didn't also have saddlebags, and maybe that's part of the equation. There's very little room between the saddlebags and my legs for the passenger's legs (and more importantly feet) to fit through. Generally speaking a passenger would have a hard time extracting their leg and getting off the bike if i was sitting on it. Maybe that's part of my comfort with the concept.
<shrugs>
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A servicar is an early harley trike. Mine had a 45" engine, tank shifter with 3-forward/1 reverse, foot clutch and terrible steering. There was a big bin in the back that ususally carried feed and straw around the farm. They were used for light delivery, and police departments used them to run the parking meters and parade control. They were produced from sometime in the 30s till the early 70s, moving up to the 74-inch motor before production ended.
I traded an Audi fox that my brother gave me, but I had to tow it home from beside the highway it died on. I fixed it for no money and still got the short end of the deall when I traded for the servicar. The servicar had big chevy wheels on the back and a ridiculous springer up front -- all added for looks by someone who didn't understand steering geometry. Shifting was a religoius experience because the head shake was so bad and I had to take my hand off the bar to work the shifter. I sold it to a guy who'd seen it from the highway and just had to have it. At a third or fourth visit he found my weak point at $7k. I bought my first IBM computer/printer with the proceeds -- and no money left over.
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Oh yes, I think I saw Arnie or someone like that, steal one off a Police officer in a movie once.
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I've taken my mom for a ride when she was 80 and my daughter at age of 11.
(https://s12.postimg.org/upp648sgd/DSCN0322.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/mwyic9mh5/)
l
Mom thought it was a hoot and wanted a cognac after, my youngest daughter Lisa was on the Quota ever since.
We have toured over 4000 miles every year, she sits in back of my Quota and quite often takes naps. With box as a backrest and large Wolfman bags on both sides of the bag, there is no way she will fall off. Not even at Skyline Drive curves, as seen here....
(https://s4.postimg.org/xh91fd4xp/IMG_4001.jpg) (https://postimage.org/app.php)
Which brings me into another topic....
(https://s16.postimg.org/jwzjedsol/IMG_4244.jpg) (https://postimage.org/)
And today, at age 18, she rides too... (with proper pants;-)
(https://s22.postimg.org/99pglo5oh/IMG_0681.jpg) (https://postimage.org/) (https://postimage.org/)
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I literally have never seen someone fall off a chair sleeping.... Roll out of bed yes, but fall off a chair, I just can't picture it. Very different experiences I guess.
<shrugs>
I got to watch fellow classmates asleep in their chairs all the time (and sometimes it was me asleep :) ). Out of the hundreds only a few fell out of the chair. Usually cause their heads went back instead of forward, then they fell sideways.
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I got to watch fellow classmates asleep in their chairs all the time (and sometimes it was me asleep :) ). Out of the hundreds only a few fell out of the chair. Usually cause their heads went back instead of forward, then they fell sideways.
Wonder how different their bodies would react if their legs had been straddling something.
I'm pretty sure Jenn has seen classmates fall asleep standing up (and not fall).
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Slow, slow slow, short distance, low traffic roads till 10-12. Helmet and gloves.
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My mom wasn't 80 when I offered her that first ride, but she was completely blind. We also had her horse riding, ice skating, and bicycling on the tandem bike. She was a lot of fun for a mom.
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Wonder how different their bodies would react if their legs had been straddling something.
I'm pretty sure Jenn has seen classmates fall asleep standing up (and not fall).
Standing and sleeping is another one. If braced you can stay asleep for quite a while. I used to fall asleep in a tank turret. Was woken up one time when my face hit the infrared sight (yes, it hurt :) ).
A friend a year ahead of me saved his classmate, literally. The guy was standing in front of an open window in a 6th floor classroom. Fell asleep and started to fall out. The friend of mine grabbed his belt as he toppled. Another helped pull him back into the room.
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I had my kind on the back last year when I killed a bighorn sheep with my head. He walked away. I got airlifted to the trauma ICU. So they tell me - I don't remember anything from about 10 minutes before to about 30 days after. (Despite having made a few posts here afterwards. All I can do is look at them and think "yeah, kinda sounds like me...") Full gear on both of us, for the record, and not going very fast.
I sold the LeMans a few weeks ago, to a good home. Son Jack has no interest in motorcycling right now. I don't know if I'll ever go back. I still have some healing to complete, but it is going well so far. Better physically than neurologically, but they tell me that's normal. ones heal faster than brains.
Cathy still has her FJR, and "snuck" off to Glacier NP a few weeks ago for a late-season ride while I was out of town. That's in quotes because she did tell me, though it was after she got back. "I didn't want you to worry."
So yeah. For some of us, it gets in your blood. I have a twinge of missing it every now and then, but not enough to go back right now. Maybe not ever. Many years ago our friend Marina, whom some of us will recall, said that it's your life, and perfectly all right to stop doing something if you want to.
I keep thinking, though, what if I had walked away and Jack was not quite what he used to be? What if Cathy...?
All of our mileage varies. I would not presume to pass judgment on someone else's informed tolerance for risk.
All that said, answers to bug questions are still free, and I'm honored to have been a part of this group for some dozen (has it really been that long?) or more years.
Regards,
C
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Not to fuel the fire, ( but -- ok-- to fuel the fire), the analogy to falling out of a chair while napping is wrong. IMO it's more like falling asleep while riding a mechanical bull. The chair doesn't bounce, sway, tilt, and snap forward and back while abruptly changing speed. Unless you put your nickle in, it shouldn't even vibrate.
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Not to fuel the fire, ( but -- ok-- to fuel the fire), the analogy to falling out of a chair while napping is wrong. IMO it's more like falling asleep while riding a mechanical bull. The chair doesn't bounce, sway, tilt, and snap forward and back while abruptly changing speed. Unless you put your nickle in, it shouldn't even vibrate.
A mechanical BULL?
NOT EVEN CLOSE (and I've had my ass thrown off one).
A chair may not move or sway, but a motorcycle shouldn't be bucking like a bull.
Not to mention a bull doesn't have a backrest, luggage, a rider that is effectively wedging the passenger to the backrest.
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Dunno Kev , our bulls here come equipped with armrests , and rumor has it cup holders are in the development stage .
Hey , you can't park that animal here :grin:
Dusty
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Some of my fondest memories are riding on the back of my dad's sportster while holding on to him tight ripping around West Texas farm roads. I was probably about 8 years old.
But we also rode horses and mini bikes from a very young age.
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Anything thrilling in this life, there's danger involved. It is your responsibility as a man to teach your progeny not to grow up scaredy pants. Their Mom's sure not going to do it.
Some truth to that. In my country these days, and by the sounds of it probably yours, safety, especially child safety, seems to trump all other considerations. It's got completely out of proportion and has reached a point where the consequences are starting to show.
Many kids are growing up without much of a sense of adventure nor a well developed skill in risk assessment. This has led to young adults sometimes taking outrageous risks and cases where people have died because the police on the scene have decided it's too dangerous to rescue them, even when rescuers were ready and willing and able. It's sad.
Though I may be flamed for it, I'm convinced that in general, men have a better appreciation of a child's need to take some, preferably limited and age related, risks than most women do. Smash the X boxes and send them out side to play I say.
Don't we all remember with pleasure and appreciation the freedom we had to play pretty much where and how we liked as youngsters? (And no. Things were not different then. It's us that have changed) Just ask Tom Sawyer.
When it comes to passengers I always take things down a notch or three anyway. Depending on the passenger sometimes a lot more than that. I believe it is the riders duty to look after the passenger. I also always instruct a first time passenger on my bike on how I want them to behave as a passenger. There are rules.
I think though that if a child was young enough to require being strapped to me, I would not be taking them. (Except in a sidecar. Even my 6 1/2 stone Golden Lab managed that.)
In the end there are risks, and where there are risks there are casualties. It's a fact of life and we do our kids no favours by cocooning them in a great bag of cotton wool and refusing to let them come out until they are 30.
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A mechanical BULL?
NOT EVEN CLOSE (and I've had my ass thrown off one).
A chair may not move or sway, but a motorcycle shouldn't be bucking like a bull.
Not to mention a bull doesn't have a backrest, luggage, a rider that is effectively wedging the passenger to the backrest.
In your world that might be true, but mine is filled with potholes and buzzards and things that go *bump* in the night. Things that shouldn't happen do -- like having to suddenly brake, accelerate, or maneuver. Does that ever happen to you?
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In your world that might be true, but mine is filled with potholes and buzzards and things that go *bump* in the night. Things that shouldn't happen do -- like having to suddenly brake, accelerate, or maneuver. Does that ever happen to you?
I don't know what kind of tame mechanical bull you've ridden but the differences in level/severity of those motions are so extreme as to nullify the simile.
And if the comparison was valid you'd crash every ride.
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This doesn't seem to me like a good debate topic. It's more like an important expression of personal and family values.
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This doesn't seem to me like a good debate topic. It's more like an important expression of personal and family values.
Understood, but I hope people see that I've been at least attempting to examine the level of the risk as objectively as possible as opposed to criticize one's own subjective comfort with it.
But maybe the two are intermixed no matter what one tries.
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Understood, but I hope people see that I've been at least attempting to examine the level of the risk as objectively as possible as opposed to criticize one's own subjective comfort with it.
But maybe the two are intermixed no matter what one tries.
:thumb:
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I don't know what kind of tame mechanical bull you've ridden but the differences in level/severity of those motions are so extreme as to nullify the simile.
And if the comparison was valid you'd crash every ride.
*shrug*
My point is simply that one prepares for the exceptions, not for the norm. Arguing the degree of motion or the likelihood of crashing is silly. For example, I'm pushing 3/4-million miles on bikes now, and I've only run over a load of bouncing firewood once, only hit one coyote, only had one catastrophic blowout, only been run off the road on the ocean side of a cliff once, etc. I've never thought those things would happen, but I've survived those events by being prepared. With the responsibility for a passenger, especially a child, planning for the mechanical bull rather than the barcalounger makes the better sense. To me.
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*shrug*
My point is simply that one prepares for the exceptions, not for the norm. Arguing the degree of motion or the likelihood of crashing is silly. For example, I'm pushing 3/4-million miles on bikes now, and I've only run over a load of bouncing firewood once, only hit one coyote, only had one catastrophic blowout, only been run off the road on the ocean side of a cliff once, etc. I've never thought those things would happen, but I've survived those events by being prepared. With the responsibility for a passenger, especially a child, planning for the mechanical bull rather than the barcalounger makes the better sense. To me.
It seems to me that you're changing the argument, which is fine, but doesn't equate.
You're changing from the possibility that a sleeping passenger might fall.
To
The remote, but still possible, chance of a highly irregular, but potentially significant, accident.
My answer is that when I take a child as passenger I generally change a bunch of factors to help reduce even further the chance of the latter.
AND
The answer previously given that life involves a certain amount of risk. You have to find your level.
But I was about 17 when I first read a poem that basically explained without risk there if often little reward. Venture nothing and gain nothing.
I remember back in the early 00's when I was selling a Jeep this sheepish couple came to look at it. When I mentioned the ski racks they replied that they'd never do anything so risky as that. I almost fainted from biting my tongue.
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Well, Kev, you had to adjust my words (I said "event", you went to " accident"), so I'll toss it backacha. But if you read my other posts in this topic you'll see that your picking nits is a pointless defense -- we're on the same side. My point with the mechanical bull analogy is that especially with a child on board, a rider needs to acknowledge the possibility of unexpected things happening.
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Well, Kev, you had to adjust my words (I said "event", you went to " accident"), so I'll toss it backacha. But if you read my other posts in this topic you'll see that your picking nits is a pointless defense -- we're on the same side. My point with the mechanical bull analogy is that especially with a child on board, a rider needs to acknowledge the possibility of unexpected things happening.
Well I apologize for picking nits.
But my defense would be that I think your analogy didn't really express your point and I'd further defend that with the fact that I never argued against being more prudent with a child on board.
I'll add the I got the impression we were more in agreement than not and was puzzled trying to figure out your seemingly (in my misunderstanding) contradictory post, but that's cool, it is just another example of miscommunication and I'll take responsibility.
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Might be time to put the mechanical "bull" back in the barn :shocked: :grin:
Dusty
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The epilogue to my original inquiry: my nephew has decided to hold off purchasing a motorcycle until his daughter is older. He wants to spend those formative years with her rather than being out on a ride while she's at home. (It's not like she would be out with him for every ride anyway.)
I had sent him a link to this thread in its early days, so maybe he read some of your words.
Thanks,
Steve.
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This business of people going to sleep on the back is an interesting one.
I had it happen rather a lot on the back of my BSA Rocket 3. This even included on some occasions rather nervous (initially) first time on a bike people!
I'm not sure why this was so on that bike. It may have been a combination of factors.
*A comfortable passenger seat without a back rest. (The R3 s weight distribution, handling etc was all set up for 2 people as factory standard)
*The fact that I consciously rode more smoothly and gently when with a passenger.
*The drone the exhausts made.
Who knows. Only once did any of those people start to fall off. He was drunk though and further more had a gladstone bag full of booze on his knees between us. This prevented him from sitting in the way that I like my passengers to sit and left him free to unstably wobble around on the back.
While the incident above ultimately led to the nastiest prang I've ever had, in every other case bar none the passengers helmet would rest on my back and the passenger just stayed there. Often I didn't even know they had been asleep.
It's a weird thing.
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When my wife and I got married back in '71 we had an instant family, no money and i had a low paid job. What we did have were two pushrod Honda 50 cubs, the old C100. At aged a bit over two our son was on the back and when our daughter arrived she was on the back aged two. As the money situation improved we changed my wife's C100 to a C90 stepthrough; both kids still rode on the back.
Fast forward ...........years and son is still on bikes. Our daughter's daughters love getting on the back of the quadbike when they come out here on holiday. :thumb: The fact that both our grand-daughters appear to be petrol heads in the making prompted our son-in-law to remark that "my genes have a lot to answer to". :grin: :thumb:
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WOW! an interesting thread for sure :grin:
I have said that my number one responsibility as a parent is/was my children's safety. Whatever threshold of risk a parent choses and defends is their choice. I am NOT making any "good parent/Bad Parent" judgements any more than any of the rest have. Seems the sleeping theme has dominated the discussion, all well and full of information, and only a little bit of sharing, maybe? on the other dangers as a passenger of a total, asphalt tumbling, both down and vulnerable to cars and guardrails and inertia with body mass at high speed outcomes. Perhaps more? likely a reality than falling off while sleeping. We know that the Best and experienced riders are subject to a crash, no matter what their skill level, real or imagined. Now, having said all that, What I HAVE noticed, and will gladly accept correction/enlightenment is,..are there any mothers chiming in? ( I don't know many of you here, so I may have overlooked a few Mothers?) I would guess there are as many opinions in that subset as there are from you fathers who have shared their opinions. Bring those mothers to the table, the forum's microphone and have them also chime in.Those mothers who feel their child's passenger benefits exceed their risks as well as those who wrap their children in fluff to protect them from all dangers in life. I know, just a wild thought getting the mother/mothers of your children to participate here, especially on this topic, but would be certainly an interesting experiment?, just for fun?, disclosing to them all the crazy things we have exposed our/their children to with out the mother's knowledge! Just a friendly poke, just a friendly imaginary tangent . It's all good. Just an early morning rant,.. peace be with you.