Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: bad Chad on November 26, 2016, 05:32:46 PM
-
For the moment, Guzzi as stopped production of anything with any real sporting stance. The CARC bikes are done. The Griso, the most sporting of them, was super cool, but like all the CARC bikes, they never sold above mediocre numbers.
HD seems to have the same problem, albeit of a much larger scale, but the similarities can't be denied. They finally produced a sporting sportster, the XR, followed by the even better XRR, first only for the EU. And then the North american market howled, bring them here! HD did, and within 3-4 years, they were discontinued, because of slow sales!
The scale of manufacturing is different, but both mfg seem to have the same problem. Not enough people want to buy there efforts at "sporting" bikes. I'm not sure what the answer is, I'm just raising the question. If you were Guzzi, or even HD, would you be think, "man we need to bring out a cool sport bike, the masses are dying for one! Or would you be thinking, "man, we should stick with what sells, and it's not our sport bikes!" In Guzzi's case in North America, my guess is there are 300/400 guys who would rush out a buy a new Guzzi sport bike, and then the rest would sit, just like in years past. What's the answer?
-
Harley had Buell and got rid of them. Moto Guzzi is owned by Piaggio who also has Aprilia for fast bikes so there you go.
-
I just wonder where HD would be if they had given Buell the green $ light and went all in.. instead of all out.. say yah, dump the HD lump and go full on with the Helicon motor.. give him full support to develop a race/sport bike.. that could have really been something. they could have two company's like Polaris has w/Indian/Victory and go after more the one market niche, instead they gave up on anything new..
-
The sales numbers seem to indicate that the American rider is not willing to shell out their bucks on a V-twin sport bike. The question is WHY? Is it the price, lack of performance, or something other. Unless the demographics change, I think younger riders are more into the 3 &4 cylinder performance and light weight Sport bikes. There's a large quantity of these types of sport bikes on the used marketplace for a lot less money. They also don't remember the heritage of the V-twin. IMHO
-
I heard the Harley cruiser riders ignored the Buell riders. Didn't want to have anything to do with them. After Buell the V Rod didn't find success either. The majority of Harley riders like 1 image and that's it. :thewife:
-
"Stuck" is subjective and a matter of opinion.
Yes I think they are currently on similar paths.
Buell was neat their biggest problem (other then Eric's stubbornness) was Harley ham stringing them by limiting their franchises to Harley dealers.
Too many Harley dealers didn't really want them or in any way understand the customer base. I think they would have done much better in metric multi-brand dealers.
That said yeah, the sportbike market is cut throat many will just buy on numbers which leaves Harley, Buell, or Guzzi effectively out of the running.
I can't imagine why Piaggio would pursue a Guzzi sportbike with Aprilia in the house.
I think the best we could hope for is a retro sport or sport tourer in the future and that probably depends on the market.
-
The younger generation that would normally be taking up motorcycling in their 20's, don't have the money and can't pull their heads away from their devices. In addition, they've been told that motorcycling is dangerous and is not worth their time.
-
The sales numbers seem to indicate that the American rider is not willing to shell out their bucks on a V-twin sport bike.
It's not just the V-twin configuration. Ducati seems to be doing just fine with V-twin sport bike sales - but they also go racing.
But to the original question. Both makes have a heritage or legacy brand that seems to identify the marque and make it a bit difficult to break out.
-
No , Harley is on board the Titanic , Guzzi is on the Minnow . Both may be headed for disaster , but the accommodations are a bit different .
Dusty
-
Yep, times they are a changin'! Companies need to adapt to the changing market or sink.
-
The sales numbers seem to indicate that the American rider is not willing to shell out their bucks on a V-twin sport bike. The question is WHY?
Seems you're forgetting about Ducati and it's ever growing sales in the US. :smiley:
-
Both Harley and Ducati have a "Cool Factor", with each appeang to a different generation. Moto Guzzi's "Cool Factor" is minuscule.
-
Both Harley and Ducati have a "Cool Factor", with each appeang to a different generation. Moto Guzzi's "Cool Factor" is minuscule.
Don't exactly agree with that -- Guzzi has its own "cool factor"; it's just different, as it should be. That said, there really isn't much point in Guzzi producing an aggressive race replica-type sportbike. Leave that to Aprilla, which has much more recent race credibility. OTOH, an open-class roadster, possibly using the existing 1400 motor, could be pretty appealing.
-
Both Harley and Ducati have a "Cool Factor", with each appeang to a different generation. Moto Guzzi's "Cool Factor" is minuscule.
Guzzi's main draw is that it's quirky and most people have never heard of it.... Unfortunately if people don't know it exists, not gonna sell many bikes...
I dont think Guzzi has any cool factor to it at all... I go to Rallies, I'm pushing 40 and I'm the youngest person there by 15years... Guzzisti are many, things.. but cool is not one of them... Buncha old cheapskates with their fairings held on with gaffer tape LOL
The one group of younger people who want the cachet of a quirky, little-heard-of brand, backed up with true historical authenticity are hipsters... and well, you see how they are received by the suspender snappers.
-
Both Harley and Ducati have a "Cool Factor", with each appeang to a different generation. Moto Guzzi's "Cool Factor" is minuscule.
Moto Guzzi definitely has a Kool factor but I think it's more for rare/uniqueness and durability.
-
Mr Mayor , I don't think you understand what cool really is .
Dusty
-
Go watch a Steve McQueen movie, now he was cool. Only the cool die young.
-
Cool Factor. Guzzi had it...
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Sport-1100/i-CF5M9kk/0/M/BBBQ%20Laci%202-M.jpg)
-
An SP1400 Sport Tourer would be cool.
-
Wouldn't the 1400 lump be just plain too big for the market and type of bike?
The CARCs were big and heavy enough, a replacement bike in the Adventure, Sport Touring, or Standard/Sporting category would be a non starter heavier than that and really SHOULD be at least 50-100# lighter.
Which means in my mind that either:
1. They'll have a new, smaller, water-cooled lump to fit the niche. More power, lower emissions, maybe even lighter weight.
Or
2. Base it on the 850 smallblock.
Or maybe I'm just missing the plan. I mean if they hadn't basically already promised a new Stelvio I'd just guess we're going to see Calis and V7/V9 smallblocks and nothing in between.
But still we know emissions are going to force them to look at water-cooling eventually, and if that's already part of the CARC death then #1 really makes sense.
What would really be neat is a combo of both ideas, not that it appeals to me.
-
Guzzisti are many, things.. but cool is not one of them... Buncha old cheapskates with their fairings held on with gaffer tape LOL
LMAO
-
For myself and maybe other boomers......my road racing days are over. The first non Japanese UJM/sport bike I ever got was a 1999 Bassa 3 years ago. The forward lean and weight on the hands of sport bikes just leads to wrist and shoulder pain. So I like the upright riding position of cruisers/standards. Also a bit of my desire to see how fast I can go around every corner has been toned down by a realization of my mortality. Seeing/hearing about friends getting badly hurt and wanting to avoid that has caused me to.....slow down. A lot. The Bassa could go around every corner as fast as I want to go now. Maybe just an aging rider population finds sport bike painful and realize they can enjoy riding somewhere close to the speed limit???
-
Maybe the few CARC bikes that broke in half we know of spooked MG so they aren't using that design any more. Not only that none of the new MGs are really light for their displacements. As their current customers age this becomes more important year by year. Ducatis are light compared to their competition.
-
Trying to be cool is never cool.
Got to laugh at the idea that Guzzi needs a sport bike, so they don't sink like Harley.
-
a good riding motorcycle will never go out of style.
just make a bike that handles and has power, looks good and some of us will be there.
-
a good riding motorcycle will never go out of style.
just make a bike that handles and has power, looks good and some of us will be there.
Yep. A successor to the V11 Sport/LeMans.
-
Not a Guzzi.
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic004/Road%20ship_zpst3bosaxz.jpg)
:shocked:
-
Wouldn't the 1400 lump be just plain too big for the market and type of bike?
The CARCs were big and heavy enough, a replacement bike in the Adventure, Sport Touring, or Standard/Sporting category would be a non starter heavier than that and really SHOULD be at least 50-100# lighter.
Which means in my mind that either:
1. They'll have a new, smaller, water-cooled lump to fit the niche. More power, lower emissions, maybe even lighter weight.
Or
2. Base it on the 850 smallblock.
Or maybe I'm just missing the plan. I mean if they hadn't basically already promised a new Stelvio I'd just guess we're going to see Calis and V7/V9 smallblocks and nothing in between.
But still we know emissions are going to force them to look at water-cooling eventually, and if that's already part of the CARC death then #1 really makes sense.
What would really be neat is a combo of both ideas, not that it appeals to me.
A SP1400 would work for me but it would be a heavier bike so I'd have to settle for the Audace, Eldorado 1400 or the 1400 Cal Custom. The Audace is a little lighter but the Eldo handles better. Using the other platforms would get you a newer bike that does the same thing my '80 SP1000 does. No gain there. This would be for my Mainland touring bike.
The 2013 V7 Racer w/chrome tank looks like the next bike for the fleet out here.
-
Not a Guzzi.
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic004/Road%20ship_zpst3bosaxz.jpg)
:shocked:
I saw that on Pawn Stars in Las Vegas awhile back. Wonder how it got to Texas ?
-
Yep. A successor to the V11 Sport/LeMans.
another 25 HP. good ergos, similar styling, equal handling and you've got something.
1400 replacement (120 HP) would kill it.
-
Cool Factor. Guzzi had it...
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Sport-1100/i-CF5M9kk/0/M/BBBQ%20Laci%202-M.jpg)
the bike & chick are cool.....too bad some old guy is blocking the shot.
:laugh: :laugh: :grin: :grin: :grin: :laugh: :azn: :evil: :evil: :weiner:
-
another 25 HP. good ergos, similar styling, equal handling and you've got something.
1400 replacement (120 HP) would kill it.
They could use the 8V engine in an updated spine frame or the 1400 engine with some adjustment. Hey.....then that would make it a SP1400 without lowers. Bags w/lowers as an option.
-
Cool Factor. Guzzi had it...
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Sport-1100/i-CF5M9kk/0/M/BBBQ%20Laci%202-M.jpg)
In the faster red color I see :shocked:
Dusty
-
You should see how fast your money leaves you. :grin:
-
for me the COOL factor of Guzzi is V Twin in the wind.. my first Guzzi on the left..
(https://photos.smugmug.com/All/i-TpcrsX5/0/L/066-L.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/All/i-TpcrsX5/A)
liquid cooling? it will have to be very special for me to want one..
-
People, people, it's not that the target markets are missed, it's that the target markets are not being aimed at. For that matter, there is nobody in charge of taking aim. They are stuck in the same boat, and that boat is stuck in the doldrums, no wind in the sails.
The unwashed masses of us faithful, we know about the product already. We have for years. We know it's history, its up and its downs. We have our opinions on where the ship should be headed, and that is all great.
Two problems, though.
1- Piaggio isn't listening, either by ignorance or by choice.
2- Piaggio isn't marketing their product. Not just Guzzi. Where do you see marketing of any Piaggio products?
Same for Honda and Kawasaki and Victory and Triumph and Harley and...
You cannot watch a single commercial TV show without seeing ads for Ford pickup trucks. You cannot thumb through any magazine with seeing ads for Ford pickup trucks. You can not surf the internet or peruse social networking sites without seeing ads for Ford pickup trucks. You can't drive/ride down the road without seeing billboards for Ford pickup trucks.
Same for Pepsi and Coca Cola.
Same for Apple and Android.
Same for Revlon mascara and Viagra happy pills and Oscar Meyer lunchmeat and Tide detergent.
Same for... every other product out there that succeeds in its own arena.
And just where do we see motorcycle ads? In motorcycle magazines. Oh, my, can you say "preach to the choir"?
When the motorcycle manufacturers finally decide that their product needs to be just as important to all consumers as Ford and Pepsi, etc. feel their products need to be important to all consumers, then, and only then, will Moto Guzzi, Suzuki, Indian/Victory, etc. have the ability to bring different, new, modern, cutting edge products to us. Once they understand that, as a profit-earning venture, to earn revenue you must first invest in marketing of your product, and as more revenue is generated they will be able to fund the R&D folks, and the designers, and the engineers, and finally bring us an array of products we will buy and use and buy again, all while we're telling two of our friends, who will tell two more friends (any of you remember which product that tag line pimped some 30 years ago?), and suddenly Guzzi just might find itself building a whole lot more motorcycles.
Honda already knows this, in their automotive company. You are bombarded with Honda car advertising everywhere. You see Honda motorcycle advertising in motorcycle magazines. So what. Preaching to the choir. The gene pool in the choir is getting shallow. The motorcycle manufacturers better start marketing themselves to new customer bases that don't already know they are future motorcyclists, or they're gonna dry up and die. Watch a few episodes of "Mad Men", you'll get an idea of what product exposure is all about.
Want to see your favorite motorcycle brand grow? Help the non-existant marketing departments do their jobs, and tell two friends about your machine. Then tell them again next week. And then make sure they are telling two friends.
Be honest, there is a lot of lip service about wanting new Guzzi motorcycles on this board. I've been here on and off for over ten years and there are a lot of people saying they'd buy, but only if... Guzzi had several models come and go since 2000, how many of you bought any of it, or just kept riding your Bassa or LeMans III while looking for that next $300 barn find instead as you wait for that dream vaporware to appear?
They build, we buy, that's all. We don't buy, they don't build. They don't market to first-time buyers, they don't get new customers. Old customers need to be added to with new ones. Piaggio needs to start mass marketing their products. And not just for one month in select arenas, but everywhere, all the time. Take a lesson from the US prez-elect. He put himself out there everywhere, every minute of the day, making himself known. He never stopped. Think what Piaggio and Harley and Honda could do with similar marketing campaigns.
Steve.
-
Honda does, or at least used to know how to advertise to the non-riding public to bring more into the riding. Back in the 60's when they entered the US motorcycle market, they had their "You meet the nicest people on a Honda" campaign. Then they introduced the CB450 in 1965 and the CB750 in 1969. It was all but over for the British manufacturers.
Hondas advertising actually brought so many people into motorcycling that they were largely responsible for the golden years for motorcycle sales in the 70's, as many other manufacturers saw their sales go up markedly too.
Back to Guzzi. I was just at our local dealer, Europa Macchina yesterday. I asked how the V9's were selling. He said that they're not; not for them, not for anyone. It sounds like it was a swing and a miss. Maybe if they actually marketed them they'd sell? I'd think they would sell into the same demographic as the Sportster and the Bolt, but, not if they don't market them.
-
Is it only a coincidence that we are talking about the oldest and second oldest continuously operating motorcycle manufacturers?
-
I might say that how many bikes have an engine layout like Guzzi? It is different and has noticeable "feel"at low speeds...Is it too different for mainstream sport bike riders?
-
An interesting topic.
Part of the problem is overall sales are far lower after peaking in 2005 at 1.1 millions versus just under 500,000 sales in 2015. Here's a chart showing total sales since 1992:
(http://thumb.ibb.co/dUv7qa/us_motorcycle_sales_1992_to_2015.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dUv7qa)
The industry itself is facing a problem with declining demand, and all of those bikes that were sold in 2005 and later are coming back on the market for resale. With demand at half of the peak just over 10 years ago, and supply far higher than ever, resale will be a continuing problem.
Despite that, bikes themselves are improving significantly. The wide array of ABS, throttle mapping, slipper clutches, electronic suspension and other aids continues to grow every year. Add that all together and people looking to upgrade their rides face a challenge with resale that seems unlikely to improve over the near/mid term. That isn't necessarily a disaster, but it does suggest that taking the time to get the "right bike", be it a Moto Guzzi or something else is a wise consideration since the cost of making a change is rising dramatically.
Having said all of that, I just bought a new California Custom and I don't really care about the resale risk. I'm happy with my purchase and expect that it will be the last bike I will need or want. It has style, comfort, safety and build quality has come a long way over the last few years. If I need to resell quickly I expect to lose more than I would have in the past, but that's the cost of buying something that's a luxury purchase.
-
<snip>
Part of the problem is overall sales are far lower after peaking in 2005 at 1.1 millions versus just under 500,000 sales in 2015. Here's a chart showing total sales since 1992:
(http://thumb.ibb.co/dUv7qa/us_motorcycle_sales_1992_to_2015.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dUv7qa)
<snip>
The sharp drop in 2009 coincides with the housing/economic collapse. The rise up to 2005 also matches the growing economy. My understanding is that many good paying jobs have been replaced by low wage service jobs. Could it just be that a lot of people do not have the $$$ for a motorcycle?
-
As the OP, I guess I need to clarify. I am not talking about pure sport bikes, I tried to make that evident in my op. I talking about bikes that have sporting intentions, like v11 sports, Griso, Sport 1100/Sport 1200, XR1200R ect. These bikes are sporting, but they can in no way seriously compete with modern hard core sport bikes. Guzzi has not made a competitive sport bike, arguably since the early 80s, so we don't need to pave new ground here. HD hasn't since I guess the 50s.
It seems to me that sporty Guzzi and HD have never really sold well, period. If they did they would have stuck with them. As to advertising, I'm not sure. Which came first the Chicken or the Egg? Guzzi did a fair amount of advertising early this year for the v9s and MGX. They we're running full page adds in Motorcyclist and Cycle World for several months in a row, did it make any real impact, I don't know? They received a fair amount of coverage as well for these new bikes, did it help drive sales? I will say I understand a bit about print advertising, and Guzzi in my opinion has done a pretty poor job of picking effective copy for their adds.
Oh, and to Kev's question of using the word "stuck". I use stuck, because, neither brand, despite attempts, have been able to successfully expand into the sporting/sport roadster market.
-
(snip) As to advertising, I'm not sure. Which came first the Chicken or the Egg? Guzzi did a fair amount of advertising early this year for the v9s and MGX. They we're running full page adds in Motorcyclist and Cycle World for several months in a row, did it make any real impact, I don't know? They received a fair amount of coverage as well for these new bikes, did it help drive sales? I will say I understand a bit about print advertising, and Guzzi in my opinion has done a pretty poor job of picking effective copy for their adds.
They should be advertising monthly, through the year, in Popular Mechanics, Time, The New Yorker, Golf Digest, car mags, and any other magazine that has lots of eyeballs on it every month. Even magazines that are traditionally aimed at women, advertise monthly- People, Women's Health, Glamour, Vogue, Cosmopolitan. And they should not use their in-house marketing people to drive these campaigns, give it to the pros. (We don't need another bare-footed guy dry-humping his bike, like an early Griso ad featured. Remember that one?) Again, putting ads only in motorcycle magazines is just pissing in the wind. Look at all the non-motorcycle advertising going on in Rider and Motorcyclist. And market motorcycles in non-magazine venues, because how many Generation Y folk are subscribing to print magazines? I bet few. Marketing, it's all about marketing. Product placement. I bet Guzzi would have sold a million Grisos (well...) if the "Person of Interest" TV character John Reese could have been featured on a Griso in every episode.
(http://pics.imcdb.org/2/109poi_001013_c52.jpg)
To all the manufacturers- stop with the $15-25000 motorcycles! You will not survive on these, you are demonstrating this now. Putting out about $11,000 on a new-leftover 2010 Yamaha FJR in 2011 really made me cringe. I am not willing to spend over $15,000 on a motorcycle, and I can afford it. I'm the target market. Motorcycles are largely toys in North America, and getting people to spend new car prices on a toy is financial suicide. Concentrate on 500-900cc motorcycles, under $10,000, and people will come. Show the world that weekend exploration is only part of the joy of motorcycle ownership. Commuting and practical general transportation should be encouraged and marketed. Looky there, my saddlebags can hold several days of groceries! (If Royal Enfield actually marketed their products in N. America, they would sell hand over fist.) Let Harley be Harley. Stop mimicking Harley, it doesn't work. (Even Harley needs to re-examine their efforts and products.) It hasn't worked for Japan, it's not working for Europe, and even the US competition for Harley can't match their numbers. (If Victory started chasing Honda, BMW and Triumph with affordable products, they would go far.) Build multi-use, comfortable, economical motorcycles, market the hell out of them, and watch the customers come out. Any business analyst undergrad student could right the ship for these companies.
And any Paul Sr. wannabees on $20k, liter-and-a-half motorcycles saying small and midsize bikes are only "chick bikes" needs to get over the fact that their own manhood is probably tiny, and just shut their collective pieholes. You're sentiments aren't doing anything to help motorcycling.
I bet if Honda came back with that "Nicest people..." campaign, properly marketed to the non-motorcycling masses, they would get right up to the front of the pack again.
Steve.
-
A small company like Guzzi cannot afford to advertise to the 99% who do not ride motorcycles. They need to advertise directly to motorcyclists and people seeking to become motorcyclists. A large successful company like Harley Davidson or Honda might see a return on advertising in Cosmopolitan or Popular Mechanics, but it would be a waste on a limited budget.
-
The latest figures available were from 2013 , Honda is still the big dog , 15,000,000 units sold worldwide . Betting the vast majority were those tiddlers everyone is clamoring for , but that never seem to sell in the U.S. , OR in Western Europe . Harley understands their primary market , and while they do well in those markets , they only sell about 350,000 units a year outside of America . Now , the profit margin to the MoCo on each unit sold is certainly higher than Honda's per unit , but the idea that Honda is missing the boat is inaccurate . Little motorbikes simply don't go over big here , or anywhere that folks have large amounts of disposable income .
Dusty
-
Mayor & Stevet are spot on. The wife asked me if there was any difference between a BMW rally & a Guzzi rally after I attended this years national. I easily answered "yeah, the average age is older & the women are even less attractive."
There simply isn't enough diverse riders to mfg many different bikes for a small mfg soooo, target your niche & do it better than anybody else. Like Ducati (which I've never owned.)
-
This rant comes up every X months. :huh: Before you can sell a MC a person has to want a MC. I tried to get my 2 sons to become motorcyclists. They tried it for a little while but it didn't stick. You can take the horse to the trough but you can't make them drink.
As far as selling Moto Guzzis, many dealers have tried but only a few have been successful at it. They are an acquired taste.
-
PS... H-D has been "going out of business" & "doomed to failure" since 1983. Meanwhile, Reno H-D sold 4 bikes before 11 am sat morning. NO other mfg supports its owners better than H-D.
-
As with many of you I'm sure, I read other motorcycling sites and of course the magazines. It seems that most of the old farts choose Harleys and they aren't afraid to spend the dough and then put even more into them accessorizing. But those boomers, who having riding in their blood, are a dying bunch. What's coming up are fewer people interested in motorcycles so where does a manufacturer start? Try to appeal to the unknown number of prospective riders, getting them to finally pull the switch or do you cater to those known riders even as they ride off into the sunset?
To be honest I'm rather surprised that Guzzi is still with us. I'm glad they are but they cannot afford too many missteps.
It starts with name recognition outside of motorcycling circles. It continues with bikes that are compelling to target markets. If somehow their name and brand became cool that would help a lot. Here in the US motorcycles are really just toys for people who have some extra money to spend. Rather like a Jet-ski, a small speed or fishing boat or even quads to go four-wheeling somewhere. It's elective so there has to be some payback for the money spent. Status, admiration by family and friends, plain old fun factor, something to help get through traffic while having (fun?). Or just to plug a space in your garage that your wife's been complaining about! (Don't we wish!)
I wish I knew the answer.
-
A small company like Guzzi cannot afford to advertise to the 99% who do not ride motorcycles. They need to advertise directly to motorcyclists and people seeking to become motorcyclists. A large successful company like Harley Davidson or Honda might see a return on advertising in Cosmopolitan or Popular Mechanics, but it would be a waste on a limited budget.
And how's that been working for them over the past 40 years of their existence? Near death many times, another company buys them and puts little into them, near death again... repeat.
All large, reputable companies, even Harley and Honda, were small, struggling concerns at one time. Getting out in front of the world, creating market buzz with quality products, is what made them successful. Piaggio/Guzzi can't afford not to spend money on marketing and advertising. To earn, they must spend.
Guzzi had a heck of a racing history that, I'm assuming, only helped them sell product. Then they get out of racing a generation or two ago, and where have they been since? Chasing market trends several years after the trend has evolved into something else.
They simply do not do enough to put themselves out in front of the world. It will be their downfall.
The Friendliest People...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysmG_NfQVb0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysmG_NfQVb0)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck9wBHW2160 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck9wBHW2160)
Steve.
-
Speaking of marketing efforts, here is a compilation video of motorcycle tv commercials from around the globe, non-brand-specific. Some really funny, catching, clever commercials here, creating buzz for the product. Including a couple for Aprilia. Nothing from Guzzi.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds9PCfVqBMY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds9PCfVqBMY)
Steve.
-
In the many years of wanting a Guzzi, and before I bought my V7, I always thought "Le Mans", never Cali. To me, a cruiser is an American aberration, like (no, I'll not go there).
-
These are different times though. For the young there are many other diversions these days. When we were growing up we played outside almost all day, even in the rain, coming home just for something to eat. We had tree forts, woods to explore, lakes to swim and fish in. Today's kids don't roam far from their parent's view, the woods we grew up within are gone, replaced by sprawling housing developments. Vacant lots we did play and ride in are long gone. Areas that were and could be decent riding areas today are now chained off with no trespassing signs
In our neighborhood many of us got our two-wheeled start on rudimentary minibikes and on go-karts. We were hungry to explore and motorcycles were the next step. The Japanese seemed to recognize this best and were there with various models in every conceivable displacement. Going from a 50 to a 90, 100 or even a 125 was just fine by us, keeping us as repeat customers for years. It was in our blood and wasn't going anywhere.
I just don't see kids interested in this kind of thing today. Their scene is getting a phone and keeping in constant touch with their friends and online activities.
..and Guzzi is only a small part of a shrinking pie to those who even care.
-
I don't know Stevet, it seems hard to believe, but Guzzi left competitive racing over SIXTY years ago! That's not a generation or two, its over Three!
At this point their racing heritage means nothing other than ancient history.
-
I might say that how many bikes have an engine layout like Guzzi? It is different and has noticeable "feel"at low speeds...Is it too different for mainstream sport bike riders?
By layout, you mean longitudinal crankshaft and shaft drive?
Current:
Guzzi
BMW
Honda (Gold Wing, ST1100/1300, Silverwing GL500 and GL650).
Ural
Chang Jiang (clone of pre-war BMW R71)
Vintage:
Zundapp
Harley Davidson XA
Indian 841
Marusho (both V and boxer twins)
Dnper
-
By layout, you mean longitudinal crankshaft and shaft drive?
Current:
Guzzi
BMW
Honda (Gold Wing, ST1100/1300, Silverwing GL500 and GL650).
Ural
Dnper
Vintage:
Zundapp
Harley Davidson XA
Indian 841
Marusho (both V and boxer twins)
Dnper has been defunct for years right?
-
Dnper has been defunct for years right?
True.
Oh, and I forgot Chang Jiang CJ750, derived from the Russian IMZ, which was derived from the pre-war BMW R71.
-
The Mayor has it right, we're just like the HD group, we are a dying breed. I spoke to my son about bringing in some youth to the rallys. He says it's hard to get excited about big fat bikes. Guzzi needs serious weight loss, let's go liquid.
-
The Mayor has it right, we're just like the HD group, we are a dying breed. I spoke to my son about bringing in some youth to the rallys. He says it's hard to get excited about big fat bikes. Guzzi needs serious weight loss, let's go liquid.
if you go liquid cooling you won't reduce weight..
-
We had tree forts, woods to explore, lakes to swim and fish in.
In our neighborhood many of us got our two-wheeled start on rudimentary minibikes and on go-karts. We were hungry to explore and motorcycles were the next step.
that was me!
(https://photos.smugmug.com/All/i-2t7WV2D/0/M/Brad15years-M.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/All/i-2t7WV2D/A)
I know, giving the finger from an early age..
still have my first Honda..
(https://photos.smugmug.com/All/i-jZPXjwC/0/M/IMG_1563-M.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/All/i-jZPXjwC/A)
-
This thread reads like a young doc telling a centenarian how to live long. There's a formula that both HD and MG have followed pretty dang well over the last 100 odd years and it seems to exclude, for the most part, and I know I'm generalizing here, excessively sporty motorcycles. Lamenting that as a failure of marketing or of evidence of not knowing or caring what exactly what I, an anonymous dude online, wants, is silly. They're focusing on what they do best and what makes them the most money, and, again, longevity would argue that they know what they're doing.
-
Despite the world championships and the wins in certain series for production bikes, the main part of Guzzi's market and tradition have been in clever motorcycles for real world use. Usually built from the parts bin for years after an innovative design is sold.
I can't believe the stuck their very sporty Tonti frame under a cruiser, but it has kept them alive.
-
Wasn't Guzzi's peak in production when they were supplying a lot of police motorcycles? I see mostly BMWs and Harleys as police bikes these days. For a cruiser or tourer, nothing says "safety, reliability, and all-day comfort" like a police model. I wonder what it would take to get Guzzi back on some police forces in the USA? It seems like it would be good for Guzzi to be "stuck" with a few big police contracts - just like Harley.
-
Wasn't Guzzi's peak in production when they were supplying a lot of police motorcycles? I see mostly BMWs and Harleys as police bikes these days. For a cruiser or tourer, nothing says "safety, reliability, and all-day comfort" like a police model. I wonder what it would take to get Guzzi back on some police forces in the USA? It seems like it would be good for Guzzi to be "stuck" with a few big police contracts - just like Harley.
For Guzzi to sell police bikes like they do in Europe they have to supply dealers w/lots of backup parts for maintenance. Never going to happen in US. Not to mention few dealers big enough to handle the servicing volume. MG is a small time operation in US.
-
For Guzzi to sell police bikes like they do in Europe they have to supply dealers w/lots of backup parts for maintenance. Never going to happen in US. Not to mention few dealers big enough to handle the servicing volume. MG is a small time operation in US.
They did it in the 70s, why not again.
How many modern Californias do you think they would be selling today if they hadn't captured the police market back then?
It would only take one or two police departments to realize the value for money and they could take off again.
-
Lots of good reading and opinions here. Let me share with you my experiences of being a Guzzi rider. I have a 2014 California Touring and without fail where ever I ride to here in NC, VA, SC I get asked these kind of questions and statements... Man What is it? Where can you buy them? Never heard of them. Man that's awesome! Check out that engine, wow! What cool styling! Awesome paint and detailing. Where did you buy it? Every where I go and stop it's like a magnet. Even at bike rallies. That has been my experience, I almost feel like an ambassador and I do talk about it's features, comfort etc. I tell them that its the most satisfying motorcycling experience I've ever had, which for me is very true. I've been riding off and on since I was 10, now 57. I've owned metrics, HD, I did have another Guzzi a Norge, and I really liked it, but it was an awful experience because something was always wrong with it. But I was willing to try Guzzi again. This California has been great. Just my two cents... Talk about your bike to others. Someday your influence could help make a Guzzi purchase possible.
-
They did it in the 70s, why not again.
How many modern Californias do you think they would be selling today if they hadn't captured the police market back then?
It would only take one or two police departments to realize the value for money and they could take off again.
A little searching yielded this article about Piaggio trying to get into the police market a few years ago, but nothing current, too bad...
http://www.government-fleet.com/news/story/2013/11/piaggio-offers-moto-guzzi-police-motorcycles.aspx
-
BobbyfromNC makes the point, people have to SEE them. I have the same exact experience on my plain ol' 16 year old Jackal.
Getting eyeballs of actual buyers is certainly a challenge, and in America, the masses still view bikes as weekend indulgences as opposed to means of transportation.
Have Jason Bourne flee the CIA in the streets of Aleppo astride one of these, and I guarantee you'll get some showroom traffic.
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/tiokimo/moto%20guzzi%20misc/guzzi%20940_zpsotl3mnjb.jpg) (http://s93.photobucket.com/user/tiokimo/media/moto%20guzzi%20misc/guzzi%20940_zpsotl3mnjb.jpg.html)
Another issue that my operation manager mind leaps to....what's the capacity of the (nearly) century old plant on the shores of Lake Como? I've never been, but I've done some google earth stalking, and it appears a pretty landlocked facility, and it's no where near a port, so the cost and logistics of plant modification/transition must be staggering, and the impact of a significant spike in demand would be a challenge, and the cost of shipping bikes from the mountains of Italy to ...Miami? New York? has got be considerable, although that pipeline is certainly well established.
It just seems to me that Piaggio probably wrestles with maintaining a balance of keeping an old plant profitable and efficient, and that may play into the VERY metered output of product, and development is invested in relative to it. It's a challenge to be sure.
-
A little searching yielded this article about Piaggio trying to get into the police market a few years ago, but nothing current, too bad...
http://www.government-fleet.com/news/story/2013/11/piaggio-offers-moto-guzzi-police-motorcycles.aspx
Somehow that Cal just doesn't look like a police bike to me. The style is too...stylized? It doesn't have that classic utilitarian look of the 70's bikes or current Harleys.
-
This article says new buyers want more sport bikes and not so much cruisers/tourers??????
"The big problems facing Harley-Davidson (NYSE:HOG) are fairly well known. It hasn't been able to sell as many of its motorcycles these days, because economic uncertainty makes buying one of its pricey bikes less necessary, just as changing industry demographics have those buyers who are still in the market looking for more sportier models and less for touring and cruiser models. Add those factors together and Harley is staring at eight straight quarters of lower sales"
http://www.fool.com/investing/2016/11/28/are-harley-davidsons-financials-about-to-get-worse.aspx?source=yahoo-2&utm_campaign=article&utm_medium=feed&utm_source=yahoo-2&yptr=yahoo (http://www.fool.com/investing/2016/11/28/are-harley-davidsons-financials-about-to-get-worse.aspx?source=yahoo-2&utm_campaign=article&utm_medium=feed&utm_source=yahoo-2&yptr=yahoo)
So if new buyers want sportier bikes why would MG/HD discontinue or not develop them? Could iot be the sport bikes they make do not generate enough sales to continue production while the cruisers/touring bikes do?
-
HD and Guzzi have some things in common. Customers are not one of them. HD customer: "I paid $25K for the bike, another $1500 to make it sound GOOD!!" Guzzi customer: " Yep, I waited them out. Got a brand new 5 year old bike for 1/2 price! Welded up a new bracket for the Swannee!"
-
An interesting thread....
I'm 52, been riding since I was 9. Started on a minibike, then a long list of UJM's and a Norton. In 1986 I bought my dream motorcycle a 1979 Yamaha XS1100 which I rode until 1996/97 when I bought a Concours and after that bounced around for a bit and ended on an FJR. I've owned a ton changed some like underwear, and kept a few. Through it all, I was the typical MC junkie, always looking for the new ride, eyeing every motorcycle in a parking lot, on the road, etc. Visiting dealers, reading the rags, going to the shows, IBA rides and rallies etc. But NEVER can I remember seeing a Guzzi on the road, used in a dealer or shop, know someone who rode one, or have an opportunity to ride one. All I knew was what I read in reviews in the motorcycle rags..... When buying new, I considered the Norge and V11 Sport, but they lacked in power, so I bought the FJR and FZ1. Had there been a Guzzi dealer near me, or I knew someone to ask about, or test ride, things may have been different. Granted I havent looked much in the last 15 years (dumb wars), and really not at all since I bought my FJR in 08.
When I wanted to add a newer sport standard this spring, I rode about 15 bikes, did a CL $4000-$5000 search saw a Griso 1100. It was unique enough to get me to look at it, and all I could say was WOW........ It was my first time in a Guzzi dealer, first time riding a Guzzi, and all I could say way "How have I missed this" I Traded the FJR and re-energized/revolutionized my passion for riding. Put 3K miles in 2-3 months and added a Norge in July. Neither are as capable or fast as the FJR or FZ1, but they have CHARACTER and something to connect to. I'm really NOT a Guzzi guy, am more a GRiSO guy and the Norge is really growing on me. Not sure I will ever go for a Vintage Guzzi, or Cali, but who knows. The Norge was bought at a steal ($7k for a 2014) and had a few issues that have all been worked out but one, feels slow as a dog sometimes compared to the FJR, but I really like it............. My wife on her first ride said "why did you buy this? its really slow" lol
Other than a local Guzzi meet, I've yet to meet more than one or two riders who have heard of Guzzi, fewer who have seen a Guzzi, none that have ridden a Guzzi, and at least 50% of the riders and 100% of the non riders have ever heard of it. Most impressions are "wow that must be expensive" and they equate with Ducatti, or Aprilia. Most people say "a what?"
Marketing Marketing Marketing....... There are so few Guzzis on the street, that even if someone sees one and it impresses, there is little to hook the buyer to go find a dealer. People worry about parts, service, etc.
To answer the OP and title, I'd say Guzzi could only hope to be in the same boat as Harley............ In the USA, when you say motorcycle, people think Harley. No one other than a Guzzi Rider thinks Moto Guzzi.............. But do we want Guzzi to become Honda? I dont. I definitely want it to stay alive, and would love to see something other than hipster styled cruisers and big cruisers, but I think that is unlikely. Seems to me that Aprilia has the Sport, Sport Standard, Dual Sport market of Piaggio, and Guzzi has the 'classic cruiser.' I would love to see a successor to the CARC series, V11, Lemans, Jackal, etc. but I think it is unlikely....
-
HD had Buell which was profitable but the dealer network was set up within HDs own existing dealer network.
Most HD/Buell dealers catered to the HD crowd and treated Buells as red headed step-children.
Had HD kept Buell and let Buell stand alone as brand, i.e., not connected to an HD dealer, Buell would have continued to cover the bases that HD can't.
Buells should have been a brand in Euro shops as they compare more favorably to Euro 'sports' and 'adv' bikes than they did to Japanese bikes or HDs.
For that mattter HD has a history of sporting bikes and scramblers/desert sleds but refuses to acknowledge that history.
I think HDs forays into sporting Sportsters has been less than outstanding. Witness the XLCR (sat in show rooms for years), same with the XR 1000 and XR 1200.
Buell was the answer but improperly marketed to folks who wanted cruisers. I know when I had my S3T a lot of sport bike guys liked it. But then they came back with "I'd own one but I don't want to deal with those 'bikers' at the Harley shops..."
Two different biking cultures that just clashed. I know my experiences with local HD dealers was fine when I was buying parts for the Sportster or FXDSC but getting Buell parts was another story. They (the dealers) just weren't excited or even mildly interested in the Buell product line. :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu
-
It's not just the V-twin configuration. Ducati seems to be doing just fine with V-twin sport bike sales - but they also go racing.
Ducati really have the V-twin sportsbike market to themselves, even the big Japanese manufacturers aren't there - Honda & Suzuki tried with only limited success, despite Honda winning WSBK titles.
It would be very difficult to compete with Ducati in that arena, for a start you'd need a 170kg bike with 200hp...
-
I'm 52, been riding since I was 9.
<snip>
All I knew was what I read in reviews in the motorcycle rags..... When buying new, I considered the Norge and V11 Sport, but they lacked in power, so I bought the FJR and FZ1. Had there been a Guzzi dealer near me, or I knew someone to ask about, or test ride, things may have been different. Granted I havent looked much in the last 15 years (dumb wars), and really not at all since I bought my FJR in 08.
When I wanted to add a newer sport standard this spring, I rode about 15 bikes, did a CL $4000-$5000 search saw a Griso 1100. <snip> and all I could say was WOW........ It was my first time in a Guzzi dealer, first time riding a Guzzi, and all I could say way "How have I missed this" I Traded the FJR and re-energized/revolutionized my passion for riding. Put 3K miles in 2-3 months and added a Norge in July. Neither are as capable or fast as the FJR or FZ1, but they have CHARACTER and something to connect to.
My take on this was that you were, like a lot of riders here and on various metric brands, concerned about spec sheets and performance (maybe even value in price vs. those things and perceived ease of ownership) over FEEL.
Lots of people boil that down (too much so) to simply FUNCTION over FORM.
But I think it's deeper than that. As I have always said performance has other metrics than 1/4 miles and lap times, performance means HOW WELL IT DOES THE JOB - and the primary job of my motorcycles has always been to PUT A SMILE ON MY FACE.
I want my bikes to put a smile on my face just thinking about them or looking at them.
I want them to put a smile on my face every time I start them.
I want them to put a smile on my face every time I ride them.
Sure there should be some measure of power and handling etc., but I also want comfort, convenience, efficiency, and damn near anything else that I WANT...
Now if one re-reads the quote above with my emphasis, but changed the manufacturer and model references to Harley and (fill in the blank of a Harley model), one would understand what the brand offers many which so often seems to escape those who claim they value FUNCTION over FORM.
And I'm NOT judging someone's preferences here, except to say that I like balance of the two which puts a lot less emphasis on power/lap times.
-
HD had Buell which was profitable but the dealer network was set up within HDs own existing dealer network.
Most HD/Buell dealers catered to the HD crowd and treated Buells as red headed step-children.
Had HD kept Buell and let Buell stand alone as brand, i.e., not connected to an HD dealer, Buell would have continued to cover the bases that HD can't.
Buells should have been a brand in Euro shops as they compare more favorably to Euro 'sports' and 'adv' bikes than they did to Japanese bikes or HDs.
For that mattter HD has a history of sporting bikes and scramblers/desert sleds but refuses to acknowledge that history.
I think HDs forays into sporting Sportsters has been less than outstanding. Witness the XLCR (sat in show rooms for years), same with the XR 1000 and XR 1200.
Buell was the answer but improperly marketed to folks who wanted cruisers. I know when I had my S3T a lot of sport bike guys liked it. But then they came back with "I'd own one but I don't want to deal with those 'bikers' at the Harley shops..."
Two different biking cultures that just clashed. I know my experiences with local HD dealers was fine when I was buying parts for the Sportster or FXDSC but getting Buell parts was another story. They (the dealers) just weren't excited or even mildly interested in the Buell product line. :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu
I agree with almost everything you said... except that I don't think the XR1200 sat NEARLY as much as the XLCR or XR1000.
Sure they "sat" by recent Harley standards which still meant that there are generally few leftovers by the next model year, but I don't think I saw one on a Harley sales floor more than 6-months, maybe maybe maybe a year after they stopped building them for domestic sale.
And what does this mean?
I personally believe that Harley has gotten BETTER at pursuing such things (Dyna Lowrider and Lowrider S, the new CX Roadster) BUT I believe that Harley has been in a long (multi-decades) battle with themselves and their customers when it comes to pursuing such things. And while business was booming and sales were growing from 100k to 350k (through the 90's and 00's) and even in the aftermath of the crash as sales have dropped to 200-250k units, it's easy for them to look at a bike that sells only thousands or 10's of thousands of units as a "failure" and move on. That's the story of the recent XL883R, XL1200R, XR1200, the XR1200X, and probably the story of the Vrods (especially the mid-mount control models), and FXDX (Dyna Sport with adjustable forks and dual-discs)...
BUT as the decline in sales has occurred, and as smaller/less expensive bikes become more and more important to them, I'm hoping their accountants and their customers attack this problem from both sides allowing/prompting (respectively) continued forays into bikes that offer a little bit more (in terms of lean angle, brakes, suspension etc.).
Time will tell, but as long as they're making bank on the $18-25k touring bikes, there's not a lot of motivation for them to try hard on the $10-12k Sportsters.
-
I've owned the Dyna Conv, great bike. And the 883R, another great bike. The XLCR sucked as a bike but made a great nutcracker...
I agree HD has tried. Especially with the mid mount V Rod. But the point of my post was these bikes don't sell (at least in the numbers HD wants to see) to the HD faithful. Buell was HDs ticket to markets other than cruisers and they flushed it.
Think about it. Had HD not given MV back to the Italians they could have set up a dealer network of just Buell/MV and allowed those dealer to carry other Euroo brands if they chose to.
That, in my mind at least, would've kept the other bike markets open to HD.
-
HD has put themselves in a box.........."buying a Harley is a lifestyle." They have been very successful making tons of $ for decades with this mindset, but in doing so it has cost them being able to have bikes like Buells, etc. that don't fit the current lifestyle image.
Look at Victory and Indian having their own dealers even though they're made by the same company.
-
If Guzzi made every V7 run like a Swiss watch (funny that term? run like a swiss watch means they ALL work all the time every time!! no mods no returns to the shop until its time for service). Fix the shocks and forks (cheap fix if done when built) so they handle like they should and COULD. The V7, in my opinion, would be the perfect second motorcycle and a good first bike for some. Then be able to build a real reputation.
It is a nice looking bike with good manners, simple and capable IF Guzzi fixed its work ethics they would have another "HONDA" type bike.
Instead of fixing what they have they make a bunch OF new engines to have problems with and some weird shaped niche motorcycles that will have limited appeal. My thoughts.
Remember, Keep It Simple Stupid "KISS"
-
I agree with almost everything you said... except that I don't think the XR1200 sat NEARLY as much as the XLCR or XR1000.
Sure they "sat" by recent Harley standards which still meant that there are generally few leftovers by the next model year, but I don't think I saw one on a Harley sales floor more than 6-months, maybe maybe maybe a year after they stopped building them for domestic sale.
And what does this mean?
I personally believe that Harley has gotten BETTER at pursuing such things (Dyna Lowrider and Lowrider S, the new CX Roadster) BUT I believe that Harley has been in a long (multi-decades) battle with themselves and their customers when it comes to pursuing such things. And while business was booming and sales were growing from 100k to 350k (through the 90's and 00's) and even in the aftermath of the crash as sales have dropped to 200-250k units, it's easy for them to look at a bike that sells only thousands or 10's of thousands of units as a "failure" and move on. That's the story of the recent XL883R, XL1200R, XR1200, the XR1200X, and probably the story of the Vrods (especially the mid-mount control models), and FXDX (Dyna Sport with adjustable forks and dual-discs)...
BUT as the decline in sales has occurred, and as smaller/less expensive bikes become more and more important to them, I'm hoping their accountants and their customers attack this problem from both sides allowing/prompting (respectively) continued forays into bikes that offer a little bit more (in terms of lean angle, brakes, suspension etc.).
Time will tell, but as long as they're making bank on the $18-25k touring bikes, there's not a lot of motivation for them to try hard on the $10-12k Sportsters.
So why didn't Hardly create a V-Rod ST bike? :thumb:
-
If Guzzi made every V7 run like a Swiss watch (funny that term? run like a swiss watch means they ALL work all the time every time!! no mods no returns to the shop until its time for service). Fix the shocks and forks (cheap fix if done when built) so they handle like they should and COULD. The V7, in my opinion, would be the perfect second motorcycle and a good first bike for some. Then be able to build a real reputation.
It is a nice looking bike with good manners, simple and capable IF Guzzi fixed its work ethics they would have another "HONDA" type bike.
Instead of fixing what they have they make a bunch OF new engines to have problems with and some weird shaped niche motorcycles that will have limited appeal. My thoughts.
Remember, Keep It Simple Stupid "KISS"
When I 1st rode my `04 750 Breva I thought it felt like a Swiss watch compared to my `00 MZ 660 Tour. Not that the Tour was bad, but the Breva just felt so precision. :shocked: The V7II? I test rode last July @ the MGNOC National didn't feel near as precision as my Breva. :huh:
-
I've owned the Dyna Conv, great bike. And the 883R, another great bike. The XLCR sucked as a bike but made a great nutcracker...
I agree HD has tried. Especially with the mid mount V Rod. But the point of my post was these bikes don't sell (at least in the numbers HD wants to see) to the HD faithful. Buell was HDs ticket to markets other than cruisers and they flushed it.
Think about it. Had HD not given MV back to the Italians they could have set up a dealer network of just Buell/MV and allowed those dealer to carry other Euroo brands if they chose to.
That, in my mind at least, would've kept the other bike markets open to HD.
Yeah, I'm pretty much agreeing with you, though I'm making some additional points.
Yeah, they may not have sold in enough volume for HD, compared to other models when they were selling 250-350k bikes, but that's because we're talking such high volumes. I bet they will look upon them more favorably if sales continue to drop.
Or stated another way, Guzzi WISHES they could sell as many bikes as those "failed" models in a given year.
-
So why didn't Hardly create a V-Rod ST bike? :thumb:
So many possible reasons - short-sightedness, lack of perceived volume (again, their volume is a lot different than Guzzi being happy with Norge sales), too big/long/heavy, lots of possibilities.
Mostly though because they were concentrating on making their $18-25k/year touring motorcycles their biggest sellers, and with volumes above 100k units/year of those models alone, you can kinda understand that logic.
-
Wayne, maybe I should have said small Block instead of naming a specific MODEL. Did Every Breva stay on the road for 30K with no mechanical problems? Simple engine, simple bike with good looks, rather than touting specific models how about asking WHY did the 04 750 Breva run smooth and WHY did Guzzi not continue to perfect the overall ride ability and reliability??? remember ""KISS""
-
Wayne, maybe I should have said small Block instead of naming a specific MODEL. Did Every Breva stay on the road for 30K with no mechanical problems? Simple engine, simple bike with good looks, rather than touting specific models how about asking WHY did the 04 750 Breva run smooth and WHY did Guzzi not continue to perfect the overall ride ability and reliability??? remember ""KISS""
Far as I know the 750 Breva series has had very few issues like most new Guzzi models seem to have. This model has dual EFI and the 1st MG closed loop system. It's 5 spd tranny is smooth from the git go unlike the notchy 6 spd tranny in the newer V7 version I rode. I believe both versions are rated @ 48 hp.
My Breva was bulletproof until I got clutch issues @ 48K miles. Have yet remedied that to know what happened. At this point I believe I lost at least 1 spring.
-
Sounds like Guzzi messed up when they made changes to a proven engine/bike design like the Breva. But I guess that is what some call PROGRESS???
-
Sounds like Guzzi messed up when they made changes to a proven engine/bike design like the Breva. But I guess that is what some call PROGRESS???
I'm only half way to 30k but my V7 has been the essentially trouble free*.
* I say essentially because I had to adjust the clutch cable in Ferracci's parking lot when it was delivered. And I had to wire tie it off the cylinder later to keep it from melting. And it does this funny stall after a cold start, but it's fine all day once it warms up the first time. And the voltage regulator was allowing it to charge at nearly 15.5 volts so I replaced that even though there were no symptoms in 3+ years. And I prophylactically replaced the half plastic fuel filter Even though I'm pretty sure it would have been fine indefinitely...
So have I just been indoctrinated, or is that "trouble free"?
And to put it in perspective that's MUCH LESS TROUBLE than my Breva 1100 in similar miles, and ridiculously less trouble than my Jackal in more than double the miles... As such it's my most reliable Guzzi eva' which puts it a hair ahead of my BMWs and a hair behind 4 out of 5 Harleys, whatever that means.
-
I bought a leftover Suzuki `91 VX800 new and bought an extended warranty just in case for the hell of it. Still have @ 84K miles and the only thing that's ever gone out on it is somewhere years ago just out of warranty (1 year) something broke in the rear shaft drive, 100 miles from hope, but I was able to ride it home 2up and that was covered by my extended warranty w/a $25 co-payment. But since the insurance co. found a rearend off a low mileage salvage bike and I agreed to let them change that out, I didn't have to pay the $25. So that's the only issue I've had with the bike in all those miles and years of useage. My VX is the most reliable bike I've ever owned so far in my lifetime. :thumb:
-
I suspect that a previous comment was right on, that sales of motorcycles shadows the economy and most young people cannot afford a bike. Stuck with enormous college loans and low paying entry level jobs, chasing a girls and outrageous rents eats up the "spare" money. As greater percentages of wealth concentrates in fewer households, fewer toys will be purchased and as noted earlier, expensive to buy and run telephones and tablets are more in sync with their perceived needs. The crappy weather doesn't help either. :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
-
I suspect that a previous comment was right on, that sales of motorcycles shadows the economy and most young people cannot afford a bike. Stuck with enormous college loans and low paying entry level jobs, chasing a girls and outrageous rents eats up the "spare" money. As greater percentages of wealth concentrates in fewer households, fewer toys will be purchased and as noted earlier, expensive to buy and run telephones and tablets are more in sync with their perceived needs. The crappy weather doesn't help either. :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
The only way I could afford my first decent (new) bike was a loan coupled with selling my cheap used car and going without a car for a few years. This was in my early 20's at the start of my career.
-
Cool Factor. Guzzi had it...
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Sport-1100/i-CF5M9kk/0/M/BBBQ%20Laci%202-M.jpg)
ooh i like the red :)
-
I suspect that a previous comment was right on, that sales of motorcycles shadows the economy and most young people cannot afford a bike. Stuck with enormous college loans and low paying entry level jobs, chasing a girls and outrageous rents eats up the "spare" money. As greater percentages of wealth concentrates in fewer households, fewer toys will be purchased and as noted earlier, expensive to buy and run telephones and tablets are more in sync with their perceived needs. The crappy weather doesn't help either. :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
perhaps that's why you see so many of them on '70s Japanese bikes all BRAT'd up.
Not my style but I appreciate the imagination and wrench turning.
-
I don't care if the pond dried up, we're gonna invest in a bigger boat!
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic004/dry%20boat_zpsjyo1cppw.jpg)
-
Another issue that my operation manager mind leaps to....what's the capacity of the (nearly) century old plant on the shores of Lake Como? I've never been, but I've done some google earth stalking, and it appears a pretty landlocked facility, and it's no where near a port, so the cost and logistics of plant modification/transition must be staggering, and the impact of a significant spike in demand would be a challenge, and the cost of shipping bikes from the mountains of Italy to ...Miami? New York? has got be considerable, although that pipeline is certainly well established.
It just seems to me that Piaggio probably wrestles with maintaining a balance of keeping an old plant profitable and efficient, and that may play into the VERY metered output of product, and development is invested in relative to it. It's a challenge to be sure.
These are great points I hadn't considered before.
Steve.
-
These are great points I hadn't considered before.
Steve.
Nah, I read that but didn't bother answering. The counter is Triumph, Harley, Honda, etc. They've all successfully built other plants and moved production of some models without alienating most of their customers.
If demand for Guzzi rose enough there's no reason they couldn't move big block or small block production to another Piaggio facility. As long as something was still being made in Mandello I doubt the backlash would be that great. Especially if the other Piaggio facility remained in Italy.
-
Indeed they have done it before. During the 80s small block frames were built at the Maserati plant, I forgot which city, and the motors were put together at a Innocenti plant, all under De Tomaso. I'm not sure if final assembly took place in Mandelo or not.
-
That would certainly make a lot of sense, but would still involve a lot of cost. There was an agreement with Aprilia that all Guzzi production would remain in Mandello. Seems market demands could certainly cause them to revisit it.
-
Not a Guzzi.
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic004/Road%20ship_zpst3bosaxz.jpg)
:shocked:
The fact that someone went to the trouble and expense of building that thing simply amazes me.
-
Honda does, or at least used to know how to advertise to the non-riding public to bring more into the riding. Back in the 60's when they entered the US motorcycle market, they had their "You meet the nicest people on a Honda" campaign. Then they introduced the CB450 in 1965 and the CB750 in 1969. It was all but over for the British manufacturers.
I think that is a bit simplistic. Hondas campaign was aimed at the general public (what a good idea) and led to a motorcycling boom that affected all manufacturers and carried them with it.
For example the BSA corporation got the export award for Britain in 1968 and was selling everything it could make as fast as they could make it right up until they got into trouble for other reasons (mainly to do with borrowing huge sums for R&D and retooling) in the 70s.
(oops! Forgive me. I see you more or less say that in your very next paragraph)
Hondas advertising actually brought so many people into motorcycling that they were largely responsible for the golden years for motorcycle sales in the 70's, as many other manufacturers saw their sales go up markedly too.
Back to Guzzi. I was just at our local dealer, Europa Macchina yesterday. I asked how the V9's were selling. He said that they're not; not for them, not for anyone.
That's because they are both ugly and impractical.
-
I think that is a bit simplistic. Hondas campaign was aimed at the general public (what a good idea) and led to a motorcycling boom that affected all manufacturers and carried them with it.
For example the BSA corporation got the export award for Britain in 1968 and was selling everything it could make as fast as they could make it right up until they got into trouble for other reasons (mainly to do with borrowing huge sums for R&D and retooling) in the 70s.
(oops! Forgive me. I see you more or less say that in your very next paragraph)
That's because they are both ugly and impractical.
Two thoughts:
1. Facts not in evidence that Honda's add campaign was responsible for the sales boom.
&
2. What about the US motorcycle market suggests that practicality plays a significant role?
-
Two thoughts:
1. Facts not in evidence that Honda's add campaign was responsible for the sales boom.
Perhaps not on it's own. There are other factors at work in a bike boom which appears to occur on a relatively regular basis, but their timing was fortuitous to say the least so I'm sure they contributed greatly to it.
2. What about the US motorcycle market suggests that practicality plays a significant role?
You have me there!
But;
1. The US market may indeed be a very large one but it is by no means Moto Guzzis only one.
2. I suspect that for many potential US buyers it is important or at least plays a role.
I noted when I first looked at my Guzzi in the shop such details as a decent size tank, places to easily attach luggage and a host of other details of, potentially anyway, practical nature. (and the fact that it was too big and heavy)
Surely many buyers in the US also look at how a bike will answer their needs.
I'm reminded of an interview I read years ago with some big wig from BSA. I can't quote him directly but the gist of what he was saying was that the bigger bikes were for (a limited number of) motorcycle enthusiasts, but that the bread and butter of a motorcycle company was the smaller cheaper products for the everyday man. As a result the Bantam, which was designed to get a man to work cheaper and easier than a bus, was in fact one of their most successful products ever.
I see no equivalent everyday man products available from either Guzzi itself or HD, yet it is such products that fill the bank account of most manufacturers from what I understand.
-
Well , Honda has built something like 100,000,000 Cubs and Super Cubs , so yeah .
Dusty
-
That would certainly make a lot of sense, but would still involve a lot of cost. There was an agreement with Aprilia that all Guzzi production would remain in Mandello. Seems market demands could certainly cause them to revisit it.
Part of this discussion has to do with dealing with the employee union @ the Mandello factory. Back in the `90s a new honcho came in and wanted to move Moto Guzzi to a different location/plant and the union shot it down. Since then the old plant has been reconditioned some and the factory is staying there no matter what.
-
I just read the Ducati sold about 55,000 bikes last year, 10,000 of them in the USA. . Moto Guzzi is not a Ducati , it's engine layout is different than most all other bikes and it gives the Guzzi it's unique character.. And like it or not, it also give Guzzi a limited sales appeal...