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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ncdan on December 20, 2016, 05:33:28 PM
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Hi guys
Before by Calvin need tires I'm bound and determined to put the new tire back on tubeless. Has anyone ever heard of anyone getting an expert tigg welder to close up the bottom of each spoke hole from the inside. Theoretically it is possible and I have the guy and he has the equipment. If the odds are better than not the wheel would be ruined I would go to a plan B. Thanks in advance for responses as I have learned there are massive amounts of combined knowledge with the Guzzie Brothers here which I am a proud member of.
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Dan , I do think that welding up the spoke nipples will cause more problems than it will solve .
Dusty
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No matter how you keep the spokes from leaking (welding them closed is a terrible idea) you will never have a tubeless wheel. The area where the bead of the tire seats is different tubeless verses tubed. I'm not saying you cannot make tube type wheels hold air tight so you can run a tubeless tire as many do with success. The question is, is it a good idea? Only you can determine that.
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I think it's a good idea, I have my California II and my 72 Eldorado tubeless. I found if you get a leak it goes down slowly not sudden like a tube puncture.
Sent from my shoe phone!
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I think it's a good idea, I have my California II and my 72 Eldorado tubeless. I found if you get a leak it goes down slowly not sudden like a tube puncture.
Sent from my shoe phone!
you didn't say how you accomplished getting the wheel tubeless. Did you have them welded or by some other means of sealing the spoke holes in the inside?
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there is a 3M tape that works..
http://www.ducati.ms/forums/77-sport-classic/457634-gt1000-3m-tape-tubeless-conversion.html
google tubeless conversion for more than you want to know..
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Recently did a tube less conversion on the rear wheel of my 01 Jackal. After much research I followed Bigbikerrick's advice and am happy with the results. Got about 500 miles on the rear and its great. Getting ready to do the front.
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I ran my 04 Triumph Tiger rims tubeless. I just used Permatex high temp silicone, the dark red stuff. No problems in over 50,000 miles. On the other hand, you will have to change your own tires from then on. No shop will accept liability. Finally sold the bike with 111,000 miles.
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That 3M tape looks like a good way to go. Just wondering though, does turning the nipples to adjust the spoke tension, adversely effect the seal ? Or can the nipple turn under the tape with no dramas? And do you cover the valve with the tape on the inside, how will you then inflate the tyre? I could understand that covering the valve then poking a SMALL hole over the air inlet will allow for inflation, but would that not then allow high pressure air to leak in under the tape, and start to creep around the nipples to escape to the low pressure air outside? (you don't want anything creeping around your nipples!) I am going to do something similar with the Norge wheels and thought to re position the valve to the side on the flat part of the rim away from the well.
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Huzo, that might make it hard to get the tire off, and a new one on.
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Huzo, that might make it hard to get the tire off, and a new one on.
If you put the tyre on with the valve side first. I think if you put the correct side of the tyre on first, you'd have no dramas, but only time will tell. See, as you're passing the bead over the valve, you can wobble the rest of the bead into the well,(I think!). What do you think of what I said about covering the valve with tape?
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you didn't say how you accomplished getting the wheel tubeless. Did you have them welded or by some other means of sealing the spoke holes in the inside?
Of course you can get a set of blind nipples like on a Norge, Bellagio, Griso etc... but you'll have to shorten the spokes.
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Does the Calvin wheels have the safety rim bead? That seems to be an important issue for safety reasons. The only other issue I can see is how fast the air may leak out, if it even does leak at all.
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you didn't say how you accomplished getting the wheel tubeless. Did you have them welded or by some other means of sealing the spoke holes in the inside?
A $3 tube of Silicone, in the process I learned not all Silicone is created equal, the first variety shown in the slideshow wouldn't stick to the Alloy rims but the one I have now sticks like sh-- to an Army blanket.
At first after wire brushing the rims I used circles of duct tape over each nipple with a layer of Silicone over the top followed by more duct tape, that was a waste of time.
Now I just use silicone, if I ever have to tighten the spokes I will just re-do the whole process, it only takes about half hour per rim.
My local bike shop was a bit dubious but I buy all my tires there so they decided to humor me, since then I just use a couple of tire levers, I didn't realize how easy it is.
http://s1304.photobucket.com/user/Kiwi_Roy/slideshow/72%20Eldo/Sealing%20Wheels?sort=2
I have since switched to GE Silicone I, 100% which comes in a small tube at the hardware store
(http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s526/Kiwi_Roy/72%20Eldo/Sealing%20Wheels/photo-24_zpsj7jycqpq.jpg)
This small tube is enough to do 2 rims.
The California II of course has cast wheels so they are easy.
You do need tubeless valve stems or tank valves in the case of cast rims.
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No matter how you keep the spokes from leaking (welding them closed is a terrible idea) you will never have a tubeless wheel. The area where the bead of the tire seats is different tubeless verses tubed. I'm not saying you cannot make tube type wheels hold air tight so you can run a tubeless tire as many do with success. The question is, is it a good idea? Only you can determine that.
Please explain this to me. I have asked before, and never have had it explained any further than " the wheels are different."
So when I had my 02 Stone with spoked wheels I ran tubes inside the tires, and these tires stated tube or tubeless. So how does my rim know its a tubeless install ?
I imagine way back when, there was a difference, an actual physical difference in the rim, but still ?
Big pictures and crayons generally help when explaining things to me. Speak s l o w l y .
kjf
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Huzo, you are overthinking a simple solution. Clean your rim really well and use high temp RTV. A nice bead around each spoke nipple. Simple as that. No need to move the schroeder valve. No tape required.
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Does the Calvin wheels have the safety rim bead? That seems to be an important issue for safety reasons. The only other issue I can see is how fast the air may leak out, if it even does leak at all.
So how does my rim know its a tubeless install ?
kjf
There are some pretty complex changes that happened along the way, but the answer is actually pretty simple.
A non-tubeless rim doesn't have a safety bead. Tubeless rims do.
A safety bead runs around the rim parallel to the lip of the rim where the bead sits. The bead of the tire fits between the lip of the rim and the safety bead. Follow me?
The safety bead will make it harder for the tire to fly off the rim in the case of a sudden deflation. It also makes it tougher to install the tire in the first place.
Now here's the big question -
Are we running a safety risk installing a tubeless tire on a rim without a safety bead?
Consider this:
What is the difference between a sudden deflation of a tubed vs a tubeless on a non-safety bead rim?
NONE!
The benefits of running tubeless far outweigh any problems.
The ONLY situation where a tube can be beneficial is in the case of a severely bent rim where it's possible the tube will still hold air and keep the tire on, but a tubeless would have instantly gone flat.
Something like that CAN happen, but what are the chances of that? I know, it has happened, and that's one of the reasons I don't like riding at night.
I'm sure this topic has been hashed out a bazillion times, but it took me a while to sort out the importances. So there you have my two cents worth.
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Does the Calvin wheels have the safety rim bead? That seems to be an important issue for safety reasons.
It would seem so, but (just like with using car tires on bike rims), that's overridden by enough people saying loudly enough "I've been doing it for years and I've never had a problem, so what are you worried about?"
Then I thought I might try asking the people for whom the tubeless-tire/tubed-rim DID fail ... but I can't find any.
Then I thought to myself .... hmmm .... there's two and only two reasons that I might not hear from them ....
Lannis
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Actually Lannis I have a VII Sport, I believe they are "proper" tubeless rims, the rear went down suddenly when I was traveling about as fast as it would go, quite scarey
The only thing I could put it down to was lack of a valve cap.
Is it safer to have a tube suddenly rupture or have a tubeless go flat slowly?
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see it here,
https://www.google.com/search?q=safety+bead+tubeless+rims&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjOrqObq4TRAhVKOSYKHW4IDjgQ_AUICSgC&biw=1306&bih=668#imgrc=_
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Actually Lannis I have a VII Sport, I believe they are "proper" tubeless rims, the rear went down suddenly when I was traveling about as fast as it would go, quite scarey
The only thing I could put it down to was lack of a valve cap.
Is it safer to have a tube suddenly rupture or have a tubeless go flat slowly?
tubeless go flat slower.. had it happen both ways.. you want tubeless if it happens to you.
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Is it safer to have a tube suddenly rupture or have a tubeless go flat slowly?
I've had a slow puncture with a tube (actually many)
And a gash in a tubeless tyre, instant deflate
However, both quite safe as tyre never broke bead, this was real problem pre tubeless tyres, now, even" tubed" rims do not break bead easily.
Flat tyre same to me with or without tube, not same as 1960's bikes / tyres, they did scare you
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"Flat tyre same to me with or without tube, not same as 1960's bikes / tyres, they did scare you"
:1:
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Tubed tires are not all bad. Flat repair on the bike is possible without removing the wheel (for minor punctures), they will hold air with a dented rim, and the tire may be seated with a hand pump. In addition, tubed tires may be repaired with a boot in the event of a sliced tire (as long as the tear is not too long).
Tubeless tires are somewhat easier to mount. They also are a little lighter and run a little cooler. However, spoked wheels have been the answer for two-wheelers for a lot of years. Tubeless is not a panacea...
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Absolutely, positively no way I would ever run tubeless on a tube rim without a tube. I have been using tubes since the 70's without any problems and I see no reason to re-invent the wheel. YMMV.
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Alright:
So I guess my question should be this, Is there such a thing a current manufacture street motorcycle rim that does not have a saftey bead ? Spoke or not, tubeless or not.
I am not talking about wheels off of a 1939 Scott Flying Squirrel, or a modern dirt only dirt bike.
kjf
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modern DR 650 has a safety bead in the rear rim but not the front.
heres another taping video'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikKeVNBAmQQ
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Please explain this to me. I have asked before, and never have had it explained any further than " the wheels are different."
Ken, here's a photo of a rim with the "safety beads" that tubless motorcycle rims have. I still don't quite understand why the beads aren't needed with tube type tires. Don't they flop around and try to come off the rum when run flat? And why don't cars have safety beads on their rims, even though they use tubless tires?
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c327/triplejim/motorcycles/Misc/rim_tubeless__safety_bead_zpsmfjqiumz.jpg)
Here's another photo, showing two rims (left and center) without safety beads, and one (right) with them. The ones with the beads aren't always wider than the non-bead type. :grin:
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c327/triplejim/motorcycles/Misc/tube_and_tubeless_rims_zpsojo4k1ez.jpg)
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Absolutely, positively no way I would ever run tubeless on a tube rim without a tube. I have been using tubes since the 70's without any problems and I see no reason to re-invent the wheel. YMMV.
That's me. Three flat tires in 450,000+ miles and 45 years of riding. One flat with a tube in 1977 (plus one "unforced error" due to my sloppy shop practice), and two flats with nails in tubeless in the last 16 years.
It's just not an issue, not a big enough one to run a tire on a rim for which it is not designed. I don't care how many people say "Well, I'm still alive, aren't I?".
Lannis
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We are forgetting one thing.
Did they even make tubeless tires for motorcycles back in 72 when my loop rolled off the factory floor?
Where's it written that the tubeless tires can only be fitted to rims with a safety bead or run with a tube?
Should I also avoid any other new technology invented since 72?
If tubes are so much better why not run them with your modern tubeless rim?
Next time I get a rear wheel flat I will try to remember how much fun it would be dealing with a tube on the side of the road, that's really what drove me to switch.
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Remove the source of the puncture, remove the valve core, squirt in some Slime sealant, replace the valve core, air up the tire, spin the wheel to distribute the sealant, and Bob's your uncle. That's not so tough...and you don't upset the wheel balance in the bargain.
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Update.
After a little research I have found a company who specializes in the process of sealing wire motorcycle wheels to be ran tubless. Their process in liver their secrets formula is guaranteed not to harden , rack ,or ever allow air to escape the wire wheel. The costs is 59.00 per wheel which includes a new air valve. Here is the company's email add.
http://www.wheel-works.com/
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I ran my 04 Triumph Tiger rims tubeless. I just used Permatex high temp silicone, the dark red stuff. No problems in over 50,000 miles. On the other hand, you will have to change your own tires from then on. No shop will accept liability. Finally sold the bike with 111,000 miles.
Buzz, did you just dab some on each head or coat the entire center of the wheel and did it even seep a little air or no more than any other tubless wheel would normally lose?
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And do you cover the valve with the tape on the inside, how will you then inflate the tyre? I could understand that covering the valve then poking a SMALL hole over the air inlet will allow for inflation, but would that not then allow high pressure air to leak in under the tape, and start to creep around the nipples to escape to the low pressure air outside?
If I were going to try the tape, I'd put a large hole at the valve so air can easily pass and not get between the tape and rim.
Woody's Wheelworks also converts rims to tubeless. I don't know what rules or restrictions they may have, if any.
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Here's the big question for you guys adamant about running tubeless ONLY on tubeless rims:
What failure worries you concerning running a tubeless tire, tubeless, on a tube type rim?
Triple Jim said: "I still don't quite understand why the beads aren't needed with tube type tires."
I'm with you there! Why don't all rims have the safety bead???
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Huzo, you are overthinking a simple solution. Clean your rim really well and use high temp RTV. A nice bead around each spoke nipple. Simple as that. No need to move the schroeder valve. No tape required.
Thanks Guzz but I did mine before I shipped it to Europe and it never leaks AT ALL. But the issue was and still is, what happens when I turn the nipples to adjust or replace a spoke? If I break a spoke overseas, I want to be able to unwind the nipple and replace the spoke. So you'd think that a sealing tape is required over the spoke heads to dodge the problem of "breaking" the silicone seal. My spokes did not leak even without sealant 'cos when I bored the rims I used o rings on the nipples. So... again, what do you do about the valve? Sealing the spoke heads is easy.
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If I were going to try the tape, I'd put a large hole at the valve so air can easily pass and not get between the tape and rim.
Woody's Wheelworks also converts rims to tubeless. I don't know what rules or restrictions they may have, if any.
That won't stop the air from trying to escape under the tape to get out. Am I imagining this problem?
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That won't stop the air from trying to escape under the tape to get out. Am I imagining this problem?
I used this for the valve when I sealed the rear rim of my 2014 v7 Special:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-GwdFZqj/0/M/i-GwdFZqj-M.jpg)
For the spoke nipples, I used Goop, allowing it to dry fully between applications (I think 3 in total).
Woody's laced my front hub to a 19" Excel rim, and also converted it to tubeless.
A 2.5" x 19" front & 3.5" x 17" rear gives lots of options for tires, especially in dual-sporty types, which I prefer anyway.
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That won't stop the air from trying to escape under the tape to get out. Am I imagining this problem?
My assumption is that the tape will stick around the area near the valve. If air tries to escape at a nipple, the pressure between the tape and rim in that area will drop, and the pressurized air on the other side of the tape will push it against the rim. Of course you'll use a valve stem that's sealed to the rim, so air won't be able to escape there either.
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Here's the big question for you guys adamant about running tubeless ONLY on tubeless rims:
What failure worries you concerning running a tubeless tire, tubeless, on a tube type rim?
Triple Jim said: "I still don't quite understand why the beads aren't needed with tube type tires."
I'm with you there! Why don't all rims have the safety bead???
If running a tubeless tire on a tube rim, fit a tube. My concerns are:
Sealant failure due to flexion of the spoke/nipple to rim area
No rim lock. My Norton uses rim locks to secure the rear tire. Not uncommon to have the tire slip under acceleration which takes the tube with it leaving the stem behind.
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If running a tubeless tire on a tube rim, fit a tube. My concerns are:
Sealant failure due to flexion of the spoke/nipple to rim area
No rim lock. My Norton uses rim locks to secure the rear tire. Not uncommon to have the tire slip under acceleration which takes the tube with it leaving the stem behind.
Another argument for going tubeless, no rim locks, the tire could creep without tearing the stem out although
I suspect there is less likelihood of the rim turning inside the tire with the seal right at the interface of metal and rubber rather than just a mechanical pressure tube against tire.
Anyway, I'll leave it there, no ones been able to dissuade me from my crazy path LOL
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I ran my 04 Triumph Tiger rims tubeless. I just used Permatex high temp silicone, the dark red stuff. No problems in over 50,000 miles. On the other hand, you will have to change your own tires from then on. No shop will accept liability. Finally sold the bike with 111,000 miles.
Buzz, did you just dab some on each head or coat the entire center of the wheel and did it even seep a little air or no more than any other tubless wheel would normally lose?
I just covered each head about 1/8" thick, let it cure a couple of days, and I never lost any air pressure. In the event you would have to adjust spoke tension, which I never did, you would have to reseal that nipple.
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Buzz, did you just dab some on each head or coat the entire center of the wheel and did it even seep a little air or no more than any other tubless wheel would normally lose?
I know it wasn't directed at me...but I sealed each spoke individually. I checked for leaks by mounting & inflating the tire, then submersing it in water. I had a couple of tiny leaks on the first go, but since then (~5 months) it's been fine.
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If air tries to escape at a nipple, the pressure between the tape and rim in that area will drop, and the pressurized air on the other side of the tape will push it against the rim.
I don't think that's correct Jim, because if high pressure air starts to work at the adhesive bond it would be like the air is trying to "chisel" away at the point between the inside of the high pressure cavity and the ambient air pressure outside, but I don't have any more knowledge than you or anyone else does so I won't dispute it or we know what will start. I think that the valve area is the spot where the anomaly will be, like I said, every man and his dog can seal spoke heads with goop, but you are stuffed if you manipulate the nipples and disturb the bond. You'll have to repeat the process if you're not running a sealing tape. I'm suggesting that the valve needs to be shifted to a "clean" portion of the rim away from the tape, every other argument has been made a dozen times, you have to imagine what happens if you see a broken spoke and you are at Nordkapp and you need to replace it, that's why I maintain that I'm not "over thinking it". I can't remember who said that, but I hope I'm not...BTW, I did mine ages ago and that was the topic of my first post,"Wire Wheel Norge", and it's been perfect, but then again, I don't YET have a sealing tape and haven't needed one because I haven't turned the nipples but I'll have them done before I ship the bike o/s for 2017.
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Here's the big question for you guys adamant about running tubeless ONLY on tubeless rims:
What failure worries you concerning running a tubeless tire, tubeless, on a tube type rim?
Triple Jim said: "I still don't quite understand why the beads aren't needed with tube type tires."
I'm with you there! Why don't all rims have the safety bead???
And therein is the whole issue
with or without a tube it is the safety bead that aims to stop bead breaking in event of a flat, but IMHE modern tyres do not break bead easily even on old borranis.
This is , I think, the misconception that tubeless is safer.
No, it is the "safety bead", clue might be in the name, will be just as "safe" with tube fitted, as some of us have done when tyre is damaged
So, anybody really concerned, fit rims with safety beads, but if weight of tube is the issue, tape & goo as those on here.
Interesting Euro 4 mandates ABS but not safety rims, guess they think bead breaking in case of flat not that much of a worry, me too
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Not to add to any of the should or should not points, I bought a kit from a Japanese company that has made a range of rim seal tapes. Here you will get a number of small round stickers to put over your nipples, then you cover the "dip" of the rim with two layers of their special tape.
They say that it has been used extensively in race situations and they have never experienced a tyre bead come loose even with no safety bead on the rim.
Here is their comments on WM vs MT rim types (no safety bead vs with safety bead.)
http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~outex/tubelesskitWMMT.htm
Here is the main page of the kit.
http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~outex/tubelesskitenglishlist.htm
I have not installed it yet but plan too when I will change tires next time. It is quite a lot more expensive than the 3M tape, but I like that it is a kit that the company has used extensively in racing and they haven't had any problems. So I'm willing to try it out.
-Ulrik
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Here is their comments on WM vs MT rim types (no safety bead vs with safety bead.)
http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~outex/tubelesskitWMMT.htm
-Ulrik
Due to the above facts, if you maintain regulation air pressure, we think it is safe to say that there will be no difference between WM and MT types as well as no fear of bead drop.
The If is the bit that matters, not whether they think it's safe to say
But we're still waiting on anyone with WM rims and modern tyres to tell us they have broken bead (bead drop in Japanese translation) in puncture scenario
Or anyone to collaborate this
With tubed tires, there are places where the bead part of the tire and the bead part of the rim do not adhere
Every tyre I've changed since they were all marked tubeless has needed a bead breaker to remove tyre, the tyre / rim seal does not know or care if a tube is present, the air pressure causing "adherence" is the same, as is the pop when tyre bead kisses rim properly.
As for difference in deflation speed, anyone with a nail gun and worn out tubeless tyre ? Find someone else with worn out tubed tyre.
Shoot a nail in each, time the difference in deflation , you'll need a good finger on stopwatch.
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Saw this kit on ebay. I was thinking about it for my quota
(http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dYAAAOxykMpTJ6D5/s-l1600.jpg)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/301501968212?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
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http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=86599.0
I did my '14 V7 using marine sealant. Months ago and the tires have not lost any measurable air.
My main reason is when you get a nail in the tire, tubeless deflates much much slower than a tubed tire. And I rarely have had a flat but sometimes I end up in strange places miles from any cell reception.
Better than doing this on the side of the road............
JB
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj221/ratguzzi/wytheville%202010/tirechange.jpg) (http://s273.photobucket.com/user/ratguzzi/media/wytheville%202010/tirechange.jpg.html)
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http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=86599.0
I did my '14 V7 using marine sealant. Months ago and the tires have not lost any measurable air.
My main reason is when you get a nail in the tire, tubeless deflates much much slower than a tubed tire. And I rarely have had a flat but sometimes I end up in strange places miles from any cell reception.
Better than doing this on the side of the road............
JB
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj221/ratguzzi/wytheville%202010/tirechange.jpg) (http://s273.photobucket.com/user/ratguzzi/media/wytheville%202010/tirechange.jpg.html)
Now that's the bottom line:)
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Saw this kit on ebay. I was thinking about it for my quota
(http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dYAAAOxykMpTJ6D5/s-l1600.jpg)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/301501968212?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
That's the kit I bought. But as I haven't mounted it yet I can't give you any advise to buy or not to buy.
As Jacksonracing mentions wouldn't it be the tube tire that would need the safety bead more than the tubeless in a puncture situation. A tubeless tire sticks must tighter to the rim than a tube tire does in my experience. In the event of a puncture the tube would not be able to keep the pressure on the tire beads and therefore would not help the tire stay in place? If so the tube tire is no safer than the tubeless. Am I completely wrong about this?
-Ulrik
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I have a feeling that the safety bead feature came along around the same time as tubeless tires became popular on motorcycles, and it was mistakenly thought that the two were connected. I thought the two were related because I read it on the net, not because of anything I heard back around 1980 when I got my first pair of rims that had the beads. Darn old Internet.
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Good point, Jim!
Why don't ALL new rims have safety beads????
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JB, I need to know, how did you get the rat-bike so dirty?