Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: ponti_33609 on December 30, 2016, 08:14:04 AM
-
Just reporting for those that might find this useful.
Bike - 2014 V7R
I purchased Mistral Slip-ons a few months after purchasing my V7. The stock looked really bulky to me and I had previous experience with Mistrals on my V11Sport several years back. For ~$500 I believe the are probably the best bang for the buck. Especially where there are not true power upgrade gains and is mostly a weight, sound and aesthetic benefit only.
AFter installing the Mistrals I noticed a slight pop on deceleration. Mistrals seem to be the one exhaust you can "get-away" with keeping the factory map. I noticed no change in my V11 when I installed them as an FYI.
Because life has been good to us, my better half said to get a new map to help with the new exhaust. I saw posts on GuzziDiag but not sure I saw at that time they were doing anything with the V7. I didn't want to mess with removing "stuff" from my bike and sending off so I purchased their Flash tool at a cost of $495 plush shipping so I think it cam to total of $515 when complete. The process involved me reading my existing map and sending it off via email and a new, enhanced map was returned.
GT Map- I immediately felt the bike ran smoother and seemed as if the throttle response was "quicker". I was still experiencing the slight popping as well (but less than the stock map) and I think the bike took slightly longer to warm up than with the original Guzzi map. GT sent me second map to try but unfortunately it seemed to be about the same. Although this is probably not true, it felt like the stumbling on initial start-up seemed to worsen over time. I reached back to GT and they suggested I unplug the O2 sensors. I asked if that could be done thru the map and not sure if I really got a response I understood but in the end unplugging was the advise. Note: I didn't do this which may have corrected my issue.
Recently - I read here that GuzziDiag (Beetle) had produced a map for the 1 TB V7. For "fun" I reached out to Mark (Beetle) and asked him about it. I described what I did. To my surprise having never spoken with him nor do I post here as frequently as I did in the past, that he said, buy these cables, click this link and see if this one is any better. We made a gentlemen's agreement that if I preferred his map we would work out payment arrangements.
Beetle Map - I installed his map earlier this week. To my surprise all of my cold stating issues were gone. Did he disconnected the O2 sensors in the map? I am guessing so. I also noticed his map was even smoother than the GT map. Subjective and maybe it wasn't but it felt as if it was. I did still notice just a slight pop every so often on deceleration. Additionally, I felt like the throttle response might have been slightly less than the GT map but this might also be that I felt that way due to the over-all more smooth feel to this map. Anyway, I reached out to Mark who quickly shot me one more map to try. The smoothness was still there, no pop at all and the throttle felt a bit quicker (again, I might be imagining :>).
Conclusion - Both maps are better than the stock map. I believe even without a change of exhaust you would benefit. Both folks were easy enough to work with although GT seemed a bit busier at times than Mark....but overall no complaints. I may be the only person to have run both maps back to back and why I wanted to post.
Which map am I sticking with? The GuzziDiag/Beetle map. I believe it is better in my V7. Feels smoother, I didn't need to unplug sensors and no pop at all on decel. This is a bit different than my Mistral statement where I claim it is the best bang for your buck. The Beetle map at $100 plus $40 for cables at Amazon versus $515 for the GT is the best bang for the buck....the difference is the map seems better to me as well. It wins on both counts. So for the average "Joe" you can pocket the $375 for something else to buy and be super happy with the GuzziDiag tools and map.
(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd173/ponti_33609/62f7e040-9b59-4635-a07c-5d5092373990_zpszqwzi9cm.jpg)
-
:thumb:
Thanks for writing that up.
-
Did you try running with the standard map and unplugging the lambda sensors under the side covers?
Costs nothing and has worked well on my 2014 1TB V7 Stone with Mistrals (dB killers left in place). Once I was happy that this mod worked (I had the bike on a dyno) I unscrewed the lambda sensors from the exhausts and fitted stainless steel bungs in the holes. Total cost �10.
The bike has run like that for about 1500 miles. Much smoother pick up, no hesistancy, and no popping on deaccel. Fuel consumption has not changed - and I can hold a higher gear as the bike runs better mid-range.
Above about 4000rpm the bike was always OK - I believe that at higher revs the ECU runs open circuit so removing the lambdas would have no effect.
Removing the lambdas richens the mixture. I can't help but think that the lambdas were fitted as a bodge to get the bike through Euro 3 emisson laws and removing them simply puts the bike back to how MG originally designed it.
Andy1
-
Did you try running with the standard map and unplugging the lambda sensors under the side covers?
Costs nothing and has worked well on my 2014 1TB V7 Stone with Mistrals (dB killers left in place). Once I was happy that this mod worked (I had the bike on a dyno) I unscrewed the lambda sensors from the exhausts and fitted stainless steel bungs in the holes. Total cost �10.
The bike has run like that for about 1500 miles. Much smoother pick up, no hesistancy, and no popping on deaccel. Fuel consumption has not changed - and I can hold a higher gear as the bike runs better mid-range.
Above about 4000rpm the bike was always OK - I believe that at higher revs the ECU runs open circuit so removing the lambdas would have no effect.
Removing the lambdas richens the mixture. I can't help but think that the lambdas were fitted as a bodge to get the bike through Euro 3 emisson laws and removing them simply puts the bike back to how MG originally designed it.
Andy1
I didn't do that with the stock map and I didn't do a re-map with Mistrals on my V11. I have just read that a remap, even with stock pipes will run much cooler. Maybe others much more intelligent about these things than I am can chime in if this is actually as good as changing maps.
-
Hi Ponti,
Modern engines always seem to be set up too weak (emissions) and remapping / removing the lambdas richens the mixture - which will cool the engine down.
Remapping is of course the better solution as a remap can modify the air / fuel ratio at all engine speeds and loads.......and no doubt would be required if less restrictive silencers or air filter were used......but the stock map with lambdas removed seems to work well when Mistrals are fitted to a 1TB V7(and will probably work well with standard pipes, but I have not tried that combination).
Just seems a simply mod for people to try before remapping. I am sure I am not the first to do it...I think it was Kev who suggested I try it?
Andy1
-
$515 for the Guzziidiag?
I didn't want to mess with removing "stuff" from my bike and sending off so I purchased their Flash tool at a cost of $495 plush shipping so I think it cam to total of $515 when complete. The process involved me reading my existing map and sending it off via email and a new, enhanced map was returned.
or did you mean the GuzziTech ?
-
Foto - yeah he wrote that a little confusing. He was saying why he originally decided to go with GuzziTech, presumably once Guzzitech stopped having people remove their entire throttle body and mail it across the country and started using a Rexxer reflash tool.
Hi Ponti,
Modern engines always seem to be set up too weak (emissions) and remapping / removing the lambdas richens the mixture - which will cool the engine down.
<snip>
Just seems a simply mod for people to try before remapping. I am sure I am not the first to do it...I think it was Kev who suggested I try it?
Andy1
Hi Ponti,
Modern engines always seem to be set up too weak (emissions) and remapping / removing the lambdas richens the mixture - which will cool the engine down.
It's a bit of an oversimplification (which I don't tend to like).
Yes, sure, modern engines ARE set up lean AT POINTS IN THE MAP. But not everywhere in the map. And that doesn't necessarily translate to weak, since the best power is made on the lean side of the balance between lean and rich. Remember too rich wastes fuel, contaminates oil, and yeah it runs cool, but sometimes cool is bad (winter/cold-damp climates etc.).
Hi Ponti,
Just seems a simply mod for people to try before remapping. I am sure I am not the first to do it...I think it was Kev who suggested I try it?
Probably wasn't me. I don't like removing parts of a system that are operating correctly, even if many feel that it is a bridge too far.
Sure you can eliminate the lambda's from a system and it may run well, but it will likely not run AS efficiently and it WILL pollute more. I just don't get behind that logic, not if it can be made to run well within confines of the map and sensors (which I think hundreds of millions of cars proved a long time ago).
I think too many people just want to tinker with their bikes to say they've tinkered with their bikes.
I also think half the "benefits" people claim about smoothness and power increases comes from fooling themselves. Not saying that increases in smoothness and performance don't occur, I just think some people make mountains out of mole hills.
So it likely wasn't me that suggested it, unless it was a quick diagnostic check.
-
Foto - yeah he wrote that a little confusing. He was saying why he originally decided to go with GuzziTech, presumably once Guzzitech stopped having people remove their entire throttle body and mail it across the country and started using a Rexxer reflash tool.
Thx Kev, yes, I am a terrible writer......that $515 was fro GT.
It's a bit of an oversimplification (which I don't tend to like).
Yes, sure, modern engines ARE set up lean AT POINTS IN THE MAP. But not everywhere in the map. And that doesn't necessarily translate to weak, since the best power is made on the lean side of the balance between lean and rich. Remember too rich wastes fuel, contaminates oil, and yeah it runs cool, but sometimes cool is bad (winter/cold-damp climates etc.).
Probably wasn't me. I don't like removing parts of a system that are operating correctly, even if many feel that it is a bridge too far.
Sure you can eliminate the lambda's from a system and it may run well, but it will likely not run AS efficiently and it WILL pollute more. I just don't get behind that logic, not if it can be made to run well within confines of the map and sensors (which I think hundreds of millions of cars proved a long time ago).
I think too many people just want to tinker with their bikes to say they've tinkered with their bikes.
I also think half the "benefits" people claim about smoothness and power increases comes from fooling themselves. Not saying that increases in smoothness and performance don't occur, I just think some people make mountains out of mole hills.
So it likely wasn't me that suggested it, unless it was a quick diagnostic check.
-
This thread could be very important to many of us who have had serious fueling problems with the V7. I also put the Mistral cans on my wife's 2013 Stone and it has continued to have problems with cold starts and backfiring in spite of installing the updated factory maps. I will now install Beetle's map and keep my fingers crossed. Thanks for letting us benefit from your experience!!
-
Lambda (oxygen) sensors and their effect on running are good. They adjust each cylinder's air-fuel mix according to how each cyl is running.
If your bike is too lean, it's the map's issue, not the sensors. Yes, yanking off the sensors is easy, and adjusting the map is hard. Sometimes you have to do the hard thing.
Find a way to adjust the map, alter the sensor input, or use one of the other ways to adjust the air-fuel mix.
But...still feel free to take off stuff, etc, and if your feel your bike runs better, then it's a success.
-
Hi KevM,
Sorry - Must have been somone else - just dug out the pm you sent to me last year that pointed to the free shareware available via this forum - which you told me 'will allow you to shut off the Lambda sensors'. So someone else must have suggested removing the lambdas earlier on. Not that it really matters whom it was, I just wanted to give credit where due.
I do find it strange, however, that people seem happy to try remaping which costs quite a lot of money and work, and which could do anything to their engine, rather than trying the simpler method of removing the lambdas. Maybe they get a feeling of 'security' from buying a solution, although the solution they are buying may not be well proven.
Oh - and the change to my bike was not just noticed by me. My local MG dealer had the bike back due to the original ECU failing. After fitting a new replacement they realised the bike still had a hesistancy in the lower part of the rev range, which they were unable to tune out. I took the bike back and did a bit of reading around, and was thinking about a remap when I discovered the lambda removal solution. After doing that mod I revisited the dealer and they rode the bike again - and they were very impressed by how it now rode.
Anyway, each to their own. I have put forward an alternative solution to the low running V7 engine problems that has worked well for my bike, which I thought might be of use to others.
Andy1
-
Before re-mapping I made an O2 sensor modifier for $30, similar to FatDuc, MemJet, etc. It worked well and was easy and cheap enough ( https://www.flickr.com/photos/sign216/albums/72157629649665070 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sign216/albums/72157629649665070) ).
I suggest modifying the Lambda sensor is better than taking it off, but I can't argue with the economy of simply removing it.
-
Simply adding or subtracting fuel via a fat duc or similar device isn't solving the problem . Beetle's maps change fueling according to RPM and load , O2 mods can and will dump too much fuel into an engine leading to all kinds of problems . Yo , Mr Roper , weigh in here . Mark , where are you ?
Dusty
-
I do find it strange, however, that people seem happy to try remaping which costs quite a lot of money and work, and which could do anything to their engine, rather than trying the simpler method of removing the lambdas. Maybe they get a feeling of 'security' from buying a solution, although the solution they are buying may not be well proven.
It's all good. I guess I'm saying that the "simplicity" by default makes it a blunt hammer instead of a scalpel.
The stock maps, though imperfect in parts of the range for emissions purposes are at least not just pig rich all the time, and that's potentially what you get when you force it the stock map into open loop only operation with no other changes.
I doubt that Beetle just adds fuel all over the place. I suspect strongly he takes it out too.
-
I do find it strange, however, that people seem happy to try remaping which costs quite a lot of money and work,
I thought Guzzidiag was free (plus a few dollars for cables) and you can do all that re mapping without buying into Guzzitech solution.
-
Simply adding or subtracting fuel via a fat duc or similar device isn't solving the problem . Beetle's maps change fueling according to RPM and load , O2 mods can and will dump too much fuel into an engine leading to all kinds of problems . Yo , Mr Roper , weigh in here . Mark , where are you ?
Dusty
Dusty,
I hear you, and note that O2 mods are adjustable, depending on spark plug readings.
In the end I used a programmable ECU (MyECU from Australia), because big bore cyl and pistons on the V7 required a more complete solution.
Joe
-
Hi Fotoguzzi
The OP said it cost him $140 for Beetle's solution - plus it must have taken some work installing
Andy1
-
I thought Guzzidiag was free (plus a few dollars for cables) and you can do all that re mapping without buying into Guzzitech solution.
Guzzidiag can be downloaded for free but anybody half way decent will make a contribution to the developers. A LOT of work has gone into it and the 'Reader' and 'Writer' programmes.
Log-building a map is not a quick or easy thing. A lot of money gets spent on fuel, servicing and tyres and to do it properly requires a depth of understanding of how the ECU operates that the vast majority of us simply don't have.
Currently Mark is undertaking some pretty serious and involved development work with the MUIG3 and it is requiring considerably more 'Work arounds' than the comparative simplicity of the W5AM. He gave me a brief run down of what he's discovering before Christmas but I wouldn't dream of trying to explain it here as I'd probably get it wrong. The gist of it though was that the MUIG3 is a horrible POS that shouldn't be used on anything bigger than a moped! :evil: one of its major problems being its TPS interpretation and for logging purposes he's actually having to build a 'Ghost' TPS to aquire accurate data for map building.
He's a busy man with a family and it's the summer holiday for us in Oz but I'm sure he'll respond in good time.
-
Oh.
Note to self, buy next Guzzi used and well sorted out.
And of course I would donate if I needed to get Guzzidiag.
-
Hi Fotoguzzi
The OP said it cost him $140 for Beetle's solution - plus it must have taken some work installing
Andy1
Yes. I paid for Mark's map and the cables were $40. Very little work involved. I read the GT map just in case and then wrote his. Then selected the Throttle Learning option in the Guzzi Diag tool. The steps between the GT Box and Mark's were the same. Honestly, I prefer using my pc but could see some preferring the GT box but steps were the same.
So to be clear, Mark's option was about $375 less and at least on my bike works better.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Below is a clip form another forum (Honda) that addresses very well the popping on deceleration when changing pipes. My girlfriend had Mistral pipes on her V7R and they did sound great, looked good and had some minor popping. After reading this I found a pair of universal fit shorty reverse cone mufflers and threw them on my V7. Popping, yes, sound a bit throatier than the Mistral actually, plugs, look great after 2000 miles so far. This is just my experience with popping, which is OK with me, and what I found in my research...(no-remapping done, but I don't have any cold start issues, I can wait a minute before speeding down the road to let her warm up, it's kinda a little bit of her character i like so much)
Deceleration Backfire is caused by fuel burning in the exhaust manifold or header.
No ifs ands or buts, that�s what causes it. But the bigger question is how does gas get there in the first place, and that�s a bit more complicated. Generally, there are a variety of ways it gets there, and a variety of things that can make the backfiring worse. But there�s a kicker, and something you should understand before we go any farther:
A motor in perfect tune will exhibit deceleration backfiring.
Therefore, just because your motor is banging it up, doesn�t mean there�s anything wrong. And consequently:
Getting rid of the noise means de-tuning your motor.
Yup. If you�ve jut got to eliminate that popping, you�ll have to accept the fact that your motor is going to be forced to run rich to do it, and that isn�t necessarily a good thing. So lets talk about what causes the problem.
Ok, so you�re riding along at some given rpm, and suddenly you decide to decelerate, and you reduce the amount of throttle. This causes an �overrun� � that is, the motors rpm is turning faster than the fuel provided can support, so the motor begins to spool down. This causes a couple of things to happen.
First, when you close the throttle, you are also closing the throttle plates. This reduces the air and fuel flowing into the motor, and increases the vacuum (lowers the pressure). This results in less air and fuel in the cylinder during the power stroke, which in turn results in a lower pressure in the combustion chamber. Remember I said earlier, that the A/F mix burns faster in proportion to the pressure applied? Well, when we reduce pressure this way, the mix burns slower. This results in two things happening.
1. The lower burning fuel generates less heat, and the cooling effect of the non-burning fuel tends to �quench� the flame front, or slow it down even further. Because the mix is burning much slower, the exhaust valve can open before all the fuel is consumed, and the unburnt fuel is ejected into the exhaust.
2. The engine designers, in order to promote smoother idling and better combustion, retard the spark when the throttle is shut, and this results in the mix being lit later.
So, now we end up with unburnt fuel in the exhaust, and burning fuel being ejected into the exhaust, and bang! Backfire. In addition, Honda has added a device called a �programmed air injection valve� (Pair Valve) that actually injects some fresh air into the exhaust to help this process along � since fully burning the fuel results in cleaner exhaust. So the backfiring is not only a normal part of the engines operation, it�s also intentionally amplified by Honda! Of course, normally, that massive bazooka pipe Honda hangs on your bike hides most of the noise, but it�s there, even when you can�t hear it.
So the bottom line, is: That backfiring is perfectly normal and expected. If you�ve just got get rid of it, that�s up to you. You�re entitled to set your motor up the way you want, and your goals are your goals. But don�t refer to it as �fixing� the popping. Rather, the correct way to think of it is �de-tuning a bit to get rid of the popping�.
-
Beetle map's rule . Best $ you can spend modding a F.I. guzzi.
-
OK Guys, going back to basics and considering a V7 in standard trim (or with Mistrals with dB killers fitted, because they seem to make little difference) - please shoot my logic down.
1. The V7 has a characteristic of running not quite right below 4000rpm. This can show as the bike being easy to stall, hesitant, not wanting to hold a steady throttle. Above 4000rpm the V7 runs fine.
2. The ECU operates closed circuit below 4000rpm and open circuit above 4000rpm.
3. In closed circuit operation the air / fuel ratios defined by the program in the ECU are adjusted by the lambda sensors.
4. Adjustment of the lambda sensors only effects the engine below 4000rpm.
5. 'Adjustment' of the lambda sensors may mean adding a resistor (compensator) or removing them altogether with the objective of making the air / fuel ratio richer below 4000rpm.
If all the above are correct then adjusting the lambdas would seem to be a good method to improve how the V7 engine runs.
(Other V7 mods and other engine types may well require the engine to have a re-map. Lets just stick to the engine configuration found in the OP's and my bikes).
This is in no way meant as any criticism of those who do remapping as I am sure on a lot of bikes it is the only way to go - but maybe on the V7 there is a simpler way?
Please shoot my logic down.
Andy1
-
No, with the MUIG3 fixing those issues is more complex than on say a W5AM bike not least because of the crappy stepped TPS signal.
Incidentally unplugging the lambda sensors is a really poor idea. There is a big difference between turning the lambda input off and simply unplugging them.
-
I feel compelled to pipe up. That load of BS from the Honda forum is nether correct nor helpful. I've no idea how Honda do their thing, but I do know how Marelli FI works. I don't add fuel to prevent popping. Yes, that will work, and it I can tell you that are definitely not 'de-tuning' (Egads!) your engine should you do that. Why? Because the area of the throttle/RPM curve in which the exhaust pops is never used on an open throttle in cruise or acceleration.
So, please ignore that load of tripe.
Most popping will not hurt. It can be annoying, but generally not problematic.
Simply disconnecting the sensors is not the best way to deactivate lambda. This will set the ECU in a permanent error state. I've not tried it on a V7, but does this not throw an error light? On the more clever ECU's you'd get the red triangle of death, plus a massive SERVICE warning if your dash has that ability.
Oh yeah, if anyone simply wants lambda switched off in a stock map, I'll happily do that for free.
-
OK Guys, going back to basics and considering a V7 in standard trim (or with Mistrals with dB killers fitted, because they seem to make little difference) - please shoot my logic down.
1. The V7 has a characteristic of running not quite right below 4000rpm. This can show as the bike being easy to stall, hesitant, not wanting to hold a steady throttle. Above 4000rpm the V7 runs fine.
2. The ECU operates closed circuit below 4000rpm and open circuit above 4000rpm.
3. In closed circuit operation the air / fuel ratios defined by the program in the ECU are adjusted by the lambda sensors.
4. Adjustment of the lambda sensors only effects the engine below 4000rpm.
5. 'Adjustment' of the lambda sensors may mean adding a resistor (compensator) or removing them altogether with the objective of making the air / fuel ratio richer below 4000rpm.
If all the above are correct then adjusting the lambdas would seem to be a good method to improve how the V7 engine runs.
Well for starters I don't accept your 1st premise. I have about 14k miles on a STOCK (unmodified or remapped) 2013 V7 and though it DOES exhibit stalling/rough running for the first few minutes after a cold start, THAT'S IT. It does NOT have a problem running below 4000 rpm (as I often spend much of my time in the 3000 rpm range) and once that initial warm up is done it does NOT want to stall, does NOT surge, and does NOT have any problem with a steady throttle.
I'm not sure about 2 and 4, so I'll wait for someone who has played with the maps to answer but I don't know why there would be such a relatively moderate hard rpm cut off for open/closed loop operation. Yes most vehicles go to open loop at higher rpm, but generally that's more based on throttle position (i.e. you could be at 2k or 3k rpm and past a certain throttle opening or sudden change in throttle and it normally goes straight to open loop). Conversely steady throttle at say 3k or 4k rpm could easily cross into closed loop.
Remember closed loop just means the motor starts to use feedback from the O2 sensors to better dial in the mixture for economy, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Yes it may mean leaner mixtures and higher combustion temperatures, but there's no reason those alone are harmful under normal operating conditions and within the parameters programed by the OEM.
As such assumption 3 is correct.
-
Simply disconnecting the sensors is not the best way to deactivate lambda. This will set the ECU in a permanent error state. I've not tried it on a V7, but does this not throw an error light? On the more clever ECU's you'd get the red triangle of death, plus a massive SERVICE warning if your dash has that ability.
The V7 dashes are dumber than dogshit and don't have any OBD to speak of. I don't know if disconnecting the lambdas will throw the 'Check Engine' light but from what is being said it would appear not. What it will do I'm pretty sure is, having detected the error, throw the ECU into default 'Limp' mode. On W5AM bikes this is readily apparent and you can feel it.
I first experienced the joy of this when experimenting with one of those awful 'Fat-Duc' widgets way back in the mists of time. Not knowing or understanding as much as I do now I thought the idea of fooling the ECU by altering the lambda signal sounded pretty smart. It isn't, for a variety of reasons, but what would happen is when the signal got outside of what the ECU registers as *Acceptable* range it has a cow and drops into limp mode while throwing up the service warning and triangle of death as Mark says. When it happens you can definitely feel it as the bike goes wishy-washy and feeble!
The V7 situation will be different as the change will occur as soon as the ignition is on so you wouldn't 'Feel' the change occurring as you ride but make no mistake. It'll be in 'Limp' mode.
Pete
-
Hi Peter,
You are right - no warnings of any sort in +1500 miles with the lambdas removed from the bike. I did dyno the bike with and without the lambdas connected and it made about 1hp more with them disconnected so I don't think the ECU is in a limp mode. Unfortunately I did not get A/F ratios as the probe would not fit inside the end of the Mistrals.
Sounds like the V7 ECU is more basic than on other machines so maybe a lambda adjustment suits it?
Hi KevM
Interesting that your bike runs sweet - but from my experience and that of many others, a lot do not. So why is yours different? I do not fiddle or modify my bikes for no reason and my V7 had run properly (with the original silencers or Mistrals) then that is how I would have left it.
Andy1
-
Hi Peter,
You are right - no warnings of any sort in +1500 miles with the lambdas removed from the bike. I did dyno the bike with and without the lambdas connected and it made about 1hp more with them disconnected so I don't think the ECU is in a limp mode. Unfortunately I did not get A/F ratios as the probe would not fit inside the end of the Mistrals.
Sounds like the V7 ECU is more basic than on other machines so maybe a lambda adjustment suits it?
Hi KevM
Interesting that your bike runs sweet - but from my experience and that of many others, a lot do not. So why is yours different? I do not fiddle or modify my bikes for no reason and my V7 had run properly (with the original silencers or Mistrals) then that is how I would have left it.
Andy1
A one HP difference in dyno runs not only means nothing as it's an at best 2% change, easily accountable by circumstance. Also WTF does peak HP matter when what you were complaining about was the sub 4,000rpm, small throttle opening behaviour??
At least try to be consistent.
-
Sounds like the V7 ECU is more basic than on other machines so maybe a lambda adjustment suits it?
The MIU G3 is very basic. Despite being originally designed for a single cylinder, it can actually operate two cylinders independently and has a MAP sensor. Mechanically it's a POS and once the TPS cam wears sufficiently, the whole MIU unit must be replaced. The TPS itself is fairly low resolution and barely adequate. It's not the ideal choice for a relatively large capacity engine when compared to the scooters it was designed for.
-
The MIU G3 is very basic. Despite being originally designed for a single cylinder, it can actually operate two cylinders independently and has a MAP sensor. Mechanically it's a POS and once the TPS cam wears sufficiently, the whole MIU unit must be replaced. The TPS itself is fairly low resolution and barely adequate. It's not the ideal choice for a relatively large capacity engine when compared to the scooters it was designed for.
Here is next question. Prob stupid. But if you needed someday to replace your MIU are there any other choices or will you need to replace with the same?
Lastly, my next project is a sump extender. Guessing most here will say it's not needed either and just keep an eye on my oil. Probably true but will have more peace of mind with another quart.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Thanks for that information Beetle.
Peter. The dyno run proved the bike was not in any limp mode with lambdas removed.
Andy1
-
Bob, I think you're still looking at many, many miles before it becomes an issue. Maybe 50,000 plus? More, possibly. I have no way to gauge TPS cam ware.
-
Bob, I think you're still looking at many, many miles before it becomes an issue. Maybe 50,000 plus? More, possibly. I have no way to gauge TPS cam ware.
I agree but curious if a better model could be fitted or would someone need to replace with the same unit.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Hi KevM
Interesting that your bike runs sweet - but from my experience and that of many others, a lot do not. So why is yours different? I do not fiddle or modify my bikes for no reason and my V7 had run properly (with the original silencers or Mistrals) then that is how I would have left it.
Andy1
Wait, what's your list of "many others"?
Is it all people you have read about on the internet? Cause I would suggest those who post are a skewed subset of those who either:
* Have problems
And/or
* Tinkered a bit and caused problems
My experience (IRL, not just online) is with the following (though they post here too)
Me - 1 stock V7 Stone, runs fine.
Jay, 3 smallblocks, currently owns 2 (1TB models) the run fine. 1 with stock pipes, one with aftermarket.
Cam, 1 smallblock, 1TB, aftermarket mufflers, runs fine.
Ralph, 1 smallblock, 1TB, stock mufflers to far, runs fine.
And I can think of a dozen more I've met at Guzzi runs who didn't complain, but granted me some of them have an issue?
I dunno, I'm thinking MOST people find have issues or we'd hear A LOT more.
-
Wait, what's your list of "many others"?
Is it all people you have read about on the internet? Cause I would suggest those who post are a skewed subset of those who either:
* Have problems
And/or
* Tinkered a bit and caused problems
My experience (IRL, not just online) is with the following (though they post here too)
Me - 1 stock V7 Stone, runs fine.
Jay, 3 smallblocks, currently owns 2 (1TB models) the run fine. 1 with stock pipes, one with aftermarket.
Cam, 1 smallblock, 1TB, aftermarket mufflers, runs fine.
Ralph, 1 smallblock, 1TB, stock mufflers to far, runs fine.
And I can think of a dozen more I've met at Guzzi runs who didn't complain, but granted me some of them have an issue?
I dunno, I'm thinking MOST people find have issues or we'd hear A LOT more.
I am another. My bike ran fine to me with stock pipes and map. I switched the exhaust purely for cosmetic reasons primarily. It was the stock map with the Mistrals when I noticed it didn't feel as good to me and why I looked at alternatives.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
For what it's worth, I bought the GT flash tool for my V7ii before the beetle option was available. Loaded it up, and the bike starts and run fine with Lambdas plugged in. Start it, and just ride away. A slight drop in fuel economy is the only difference.
-
I am another. My bike ran fine to me with stock pipes and map. I switched the exhaust purely for cosmetic reasons primarily. It was the stock map with the Mistrals when I noticed it didn't feel as good to me and why I looked at alternatives.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I am in this boat as well, no issues with stock pipes/map or even with aftermarket pipes/stock map below 4000.
-
For what it's worth, I bought the GT flash tool for my V7ii before the beetle option was available. Loaded it up, and the bike starts and run fine with Lambdas plugged in. Start it, and just ride away. A slight drop in fuel economy is the only difference.
It sounds like the same difference for the V7 as for the 5AM in that the map writers have different performance objectives. From another thread on this board:
GT-RX: "I'm not a mileage chaser. I just enjoy my bikes and put gas in them when needed. I prefer to have a healthy, cool running motor with amazing power."
Beetle: "You'll get a pleasant ride, with more low down grunt and great fuel economy."
-
Thanks for that information Beetle.
Peter. The dyno run proved the bike was not in any limp mode with lambdas removed.
Andy1
How did the dyno run prove any such thing?
-
How did the dyno run prove any such thing?
Well the very term "limp home mode" came from the fact that most EFI systems traditionally reduced/limited performance in that mode to prevent damage if something was wrong.
The idea was that a failed sensor would be ignored and/or the signal value replaced with some standard value (say a temp sensor might use the value for normal operation) to allow the vehicle to get home and repaired but not operate ideally.
He's suggesting the lack of reduction of power must mean it's not operating in a way that is limiting performance.
-
At one point. WFO! It's a complete irrelevance. The error will be detected and the ECU will default. The fact that maximum RWHP doesn't effectively change proves nothing.
Once again I think we are seeing *evidence* of the old misconception that the evil government has *Made* manufacturers map all bikes up very lean. This isn't the case, in fact with the MM system at least the maps are almost universally rich! They then rely on the rather crude narrow band lambdas to pull fuel out until the perceived *Ideal* is reached during CL operation.
Outside of the CL area the maps are left quite rich for a couple of reasons. Firstly and crudely because the factory folks know that probably the first thing many owners will do is take off the stock exhaust and put some piece of noisy junk on. In most circumstances on most engines this will result in the mixture being leaned out and making the map richer at that point makes it less likely that the Pistons will develop holes! Secondly, besides a 'Safety margin' against damage it will generally, on a stock bike, limit or reduce power. This could be handy in a legal situation if a manufacturer is taken to task for providing an 'Insanely powerful' machine. They can simply point out they could of made it even more powerful! Hardly a concern with a Guzzi but as a business principle it will be applied with a broad brush!
Look, if Andy is happy with what he's done? All power to him. To me though it sounds like there is something not right with his bike. As for the ridiculous idea that you don't need to worry about fuel consumption if you are seeking best performance? Well, sorry, but adding more fuel to an already rich base map and turning the lambdas off is NOT going to achieve anything apart from higher fuel bills and accelerated engine wear.
Pete
-
Well you know I'm pretty much in agreement with you on this. Though I won't purport to know if WOT is always available in real "limp home" mode on any given vehicle. I will guess that O2 sensor failure probably wouldn't be one that would limit performance because there's less of a chance of any damage because all it's doing is not "leaning out" towards 14.7:1 for a bit.
I mean not every fault code is supposed to cause limited performance.
-
Peter - it was certinly not me who said anything about accepting poor fuel consumption....I get +60 mpg average on my bike (UK gallons) with the lambdas removed....I would not accept a bike with poor fuel consumption....and my experience is that the removal of the lambdas reinstates the mixture to how it should be from an originally over lean mixture. Not an over rich one as you suggest. My evidence for this is the original blueing of the headers with the lambdas connected reduces once the lambdas are removed (leaner mixtures burn with a higher EGT (Exhaust Gas Temperature)).
You seem to be quite critical of me and what I have done and have made sarcastic comments which up until now I have ignored. May I ask a question please? Have you ever ridden or owned a V7? What is your experience of this bike? I know you have a lot of experience of other Guzzis and see yourself as something of a Guzzi Guru, but your knowledge may not be relevant to the V7.
KevM - if no one else had problems with rough running why are Todd and Beetle offering modified maps?
Peter says there may be something wrong with my bike - but that is how it was supplied new. One thought was that I might have had 2 x dodgy lambda sensors.....but now it is running well - and the solution I have used costs very little, can be reversed, and is very unlikely to do any engine damage. So while it may not be consistent with the re-mapping required on other MGs, it fits with Beetles's description of the ECU as being rather a crude device, possibly corrected by my rather crude modification.
I am away hang gliding for a few weeks now, so I will respond when I can, but please keep replies informative like Beetles, rather than sarcastic or aggressive like Peters
Andy1
(and appologies to Ponti if I appear to have hijacked his thread - I appreciate his original post and think he gave a very good description of his experience of sorting his bike out)
-
Sorry if you interpret my responses as sarcastic. They aren't. The blueing of the pipes is down to the map being trimmed by the lambda input to a very lean state. This does NOT mean that the map is lean. There is a subtle difference.
As for your question as to whether I've owned a V7? I currently do, its with Beetle being used for map development purposes right now. Apart from that I've worked on and serviced scores of them. I am not, and have never claimed to be any sort of 'Guru' simply a mechanic who knows my trade.
Pete
PS, the fuel consumption comment was a response to George's (Dilliw's) previous statement about differing aims.
-
I'm glad we are all getting along so well.. I'll sleep good tonight.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/3kNZuwAF1FA/maxresdefault.jpg)
-
I'm fairly sure there is no limp mode in the MIU G3. Although I'm still surprised that disconnecting the lambda's does not light up the EFI light. I might try it on Pete's V7 Racer in my garage. I do know that if the lambda sensor output exceeds parameters, you will get an EFI light. Also, if the MAP (Mass Air Pressure) sensor outputs goes wonky, it will light up. If the MAP sensor fails, you will likely fail to proceed. The ECU uses the lambda (in closed loop mode), MAP and phase sensor to calculate injector pulse-width and ignition timing, so if there's no lambda, it will simply operate in open-loop. Of course, it will still be in a permanent error state, it just won't tell you unless you check the DTC's.
I started mapping the V7 because I was asked to. Some folks were getting low speed stumble and hunting, and/or poor starting. Not everyone has had these issues, as Kev m has noted. I don't know why this is. Could be down to the state of tune of the bike, crappy fuel in your area, whether it's a Monday or Friday build or any number of reasons. Adding an extremely free-flowing exhaust like an Agostini or Pipemasters, or one of the esoteric 2 into 1's would exacerbate the issue.
Honestly, if you have a stock V7, pulling the lambda sensors may be all you need to do. I'm not sure about the V7-II, as the firmware and software is different. Don't forget to reset the trims. Oh, and be sure to pull the sensors out of the headers, as they will clog, and if you ever need to put them back in, may cause problems.
As Dilliw mentions, my philosophy is not about more power. I just want us to have smooth, linear power delivery and best torque possible without engine mods. Also, adding extra fuel to cool and engine is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
-
I agree but curious if a better model could be fitted or would someone need to replace with the same unit.
Anything is possible, but given the relatively low cost of the MIU G3, I'd simply replace it.
-
Beetle:
Thanks for your work on these V7 maps and your interesting posts. Two questions:
1). How exactly do I buy one of your maps for a 2013 V7 Stone?
2). Is there a particular brand of aftermarket exhaust you recommend for use with your map or as an overall upgrade to these bikes? Or suggest avoiding?
I don't have any particular issues with my stock exhaust after 50,000 miles, except that the left muffler turned brown after left spark plug cap got water fouled. Runs ok now, but looks rough.
I may replace with aftermarket. Or with OEM. But I would appreciate your input before I make a potential mistake. I like the stock sound just fine. What I want is the best running, easiest to live with engine for the long haul, so what do you recommend?
If you say stick with OEM, I shall listen.
Thanks.
-
1). How exactly do I buy one of your maps for a 2013 V7 Stone?
Simply go to my website: www.griso.org
Instant purchase of a download link via PayPal.
You will need the GuzziDiag suite of tools and the cables. Details in the GuzziDiag thread: LINKY (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=69168.0).
2). Is there a particular brand of aftermarket exhaust you recommend for use with your map or as an overall upgrade to these bikes? Or suggest avoiding?
Simply based on the exhaust the maps were initially built with, the Mistral or Agostini. Functionally the same, although the Ago seems to be a tad more free flowing. These are without catcons, of course. Maybe stay clear of the Pipemasters. More fuel required for them to run smooth, so affects economy.
I don't have any particular issues with my stock exhaust after 50,000 miles, except that the left muffler turned brown after left spark plug cap got water fouled. Runs ok now, but looks rough.
I may replace with aftermarket. Or with OEM. But I would appreciate your input before I make a potential mistake. I like the stock sound just fine. What I want is the best running, easiest to live with engine for the long haul, so what do you recommend?
If you say stick with OEM, I shall listen.
Unless you want to drop a few pounds off the bike, make it louder or want it to change the look, I see no reason to change from stock. This assumes no drama with the engine. The muffler turned brown from the catcon getting too much raw fuel? If you reckon that might happen again, it might be worth considering changing to Mistrals, et al.
-
Andy, Beetle answered your question directed at me, but I'll add that sometimes people react to a perceived need that doesn't have to be a real one. Also people tinker and change things. Not to mention even if the stock is OK that doesn't mean it can't be improved upon. Of course the question then becomes what is the improvement.
60 mpg (UK gallons) sounds like low average.
At a factor of 1.2 USG/UKG I'd say I average at least that most of the year and have enjoyed mpg as high as 66 mpg (UKG).
-
In the case of most, if not all, Guzzi maps they can definitely be improved on. The early W5AM maps were dreadful. Just yesterday I had a bloke who's Mana I'd just re-belted pick his bike up and he was saying he loved the Griso but when he'd ridden them, (He'd tried several.) he "Couldn't live with the fuel injection.". I suggested he take mine for a squirt and when he got off he just said "Perfect! How much does it cost to get it to run like that?" He was gobsmacked when I explained that as long as it was tuned correctly the only change bar the exhaust pipe was a Beetlemap that costs a Grey Nurse!
I have a feeling next time I see him he'll be riding a Griso :evil:
The problems with the MUIG3 seem to vary from bike to bike but the cheapness of the MUIG3 itself and the fact that very little time or money going into the map development means that issues like the cold start stumbles may be quite common. I know with my bike if it is started from cold, even with the iteration of map that Mark provided it would stall if you tried to gas it up in the first 30 seconds to a minute. I suspect that this was because it went stupid lean due to the crap TPS interpretation but maybe the Ago mufflers contribute a bit too. Regardless of that once out of the warm-up table it rode pretty damn fine! Slightly more vibration at a couple of points and vibration is usually an indicator of a lean mix on one or both cylinders but overall it is much more pleasant than any V7 I've ridden with the stock map, lambda on or off!
My bike came with the Ago pipes and the stock ones so Mark has an opportunity to see what changes need to be made from stock to the more freer flowing Ago's. If someone asks him nicely he might even do a 'Noisy Moron' map for those who want to run without dB killers in! As most probably know noisy bikes make me puce with spluttering rage! :grin:
Pete
-
Hey, not to start a cat fight, BUT, where is the GTRX rebuttal!!! It's now 'I'm not drunk, I'm just drinkin" Happy New Year Pete
SCORE= Beetle 10 & GTRX 0 LOL :evil:
-
I was thinking about doing a map with dB killers out of the Ago's, but they're loud enough with them in. Maybe I'm just a cranky old curmudgeon. Besides, fuel economy would likely plummet.
-
With the killers in they aren't offensive and can be ridden around with without frightening little old ladies and scaring the cats, (Or attracting the attentions of :copcar:! Riding with earplugs, always, with the killers in I can still hear the bike when its accelerating and decelerating but on the cruise at highway speed, (100-110kph or 60-70mph ish.) they are barely audible. Just the way I like it! :grin:
Pete
-
I can add that I'm very happy with my beetle map running in my '13 V7 Stone with GuzziTech 2:2 SS exhaust. I've posted before that I felt a GT map worked well but at the cost of fuel mileage and now with the beetle map I get what I feel is even smoother throttle across the range and better mpg as well, I think it might be even better mpg than my bike in stock trim. I do have a short warmup time but it is shorter than the stock timing and I don't mind waiting the minute before heading out on a cold bike.
-
The MIU G3 is very basic. Despite being originally designed for a single cylinder, it can actually operate two cylinders independently and has a MAP sensor. Mechanically it's a POS and once the TPS cam wears sufficiently, the whole MIU unit must be replaced. The TPS itself is fairly low resolution and barely adequate. It's not the ideal choice for a relatively large capacity engine when compared to the scooters it was designed for.
Because it was designed for a single cylinder engine, they had not another power switched output for a second coil available. So that's why there are different coils on the v7/v9. One is active and needs low power to spark.
-
Last century I had a Bassa remapped on a dyno by Doug Lofgren useing FIM software. Fuel Injected Motorcycles is/was in Austrailia, I don't know if they are still in business but did have a good product to tune a then new 15M. This particular Bassa popped horribly on deceleration to the point of embarrassment. The Guzzi dealership could not fix it and the bike had not been modified yet. Doug said he added a lot of waypoints that he said were lacking in the factory map. Then to fix the popping on decel he had the thing retard timing on a trailing throttle. That's what I remember ,it was a very nice running motorcycle after that. I'm ignorant on mapping but I wonder if retarding timing on trailing throttle is possible or desire able on bikes that pop so much on deceleration. Need a "head scratching " icon...
-
No need to mess with the spark. Just chop the fuel completely on a negative throttle until the revs drop to a certain point. No fuel? No backfiring!
With the map I'm running the fuel is chopped at, (From memory, this is Mark's map, he'd know for sure.) all 4.6-5.2 degree throttle points above 2,700 rpm. It's normally un-noticeable on a closed throttle apart from a slight increase in engine braking, (To be honest I'm not good enough to pick it but I'm told it's there!) but on the long hill down into Queanbeyan which has an 80kph speed limit I can run into town on a negative throttle slowing down without brakes and when engine speed drops below that 2,700 rpm point and it starts getting fuel again it gives a small, barely detectable, lurch as combustion starts again. As soon as you open the throttle wider than the 5.2 degree cut of point it's business as usual. For some reason I really enjoy waiting for and predicting that little 'Lurch'. Little things please little minds I suppose............ ..
Pete
-
Grey Nurse
Ok, where did that come from?
-
Ok, where did that come from?
It's a reference to the Oz $100 note, which is basically grey in colour.
I don't think there's a shark printed on it.
-
Look for a picture of an Australian $100 note. :grin:
Our banknotes are pretty colourful, the 100 is grey. A grey nurse is a type of shark commonly found in southern Australian waters, so.............
Pete
PS. It isn't strictly accurate any more as the note designs changed in 2015. The last 'Grey' $100 has a picture of Dougie Mawson on it. In 2015 there was a new design with Nellie Melba, (Opera singer.) on the front and John Monash, (General.) on the back and it's not really grey any more.
-
The hundy is mostly green. Only the heads of Nellie Melba and John Monash are grey. Are you lot colour blind?
-
No, just poor so we don't see a grey nurse very often! :grin:
-
I don't see 'em much nether. Never heard 'em called a grey nurse neither. Just a boy from the outback, I guess.
-
$100-Grey nurse.
$50-Pineapple
$20-Lobster
$10-Bluebottle
$5-Can't remember? :grin:
-
50 Twiggers = a grey nurse ?
Dusty
-
$100-Grey nurse.
$50-Pineapple
$20-Lobster
$10-Bluebottle
$5-Can't remember? :grin:
$5 - Prawn
Also, $100 was grey from '84-'96, when it changed to mostly green
Hope to get there someday to actually see them! :laugh:
Unrelated, but funny video from when Australia changed to the dollar from the pound:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZTeWLA1LAs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZTeWLA1LAs)
Cheers,
Shaun
-
Internet OK out here in the wilds of Lanzarote. I was not sure if we would have Wi-Fi or not.
First, an apology to Peter R as I was a bit over sensitive. Glad you do have a V7 Peter as your input about these bikes will be valuable. Assume it is a 1TB model?
Beetle - do the ECUs adjust for temperature and altitude? Just a thought, but my bike is used in UK at around 10 - 25C max, near sea level....so will run leaner than those lucky people who live in warmer climes or at higher altitudes.
Andy1
-
Just another report. This was my first day back to work after holiday shutdown. I can't describe enough how much smoother the bike is with no stutter at start-up (I don't wait for a proper warm-up either). Also, after reading many of these posts I will say I have less "gas-smell" with the Beetle map as well which is consistent to people saying perhaps other maps "throw" fuel at the problem.
Anyway, just wanted to add my first ride back to work report.
-
Beetle - do the ECUs adjust for temperature and altitude?
Whether we're talking Speed-Density (like most bike EFI systems) or Mass-Air Flow, I don't think I've heard of a modern EFI system that does not. And we're talking decades now like back to the early Weber-Marelli EFI system that Guzzi and Harley both shared in the 90s.
EDIT - perhaps this will help explain (see my added bold):
http://www.magnetimarelli.com/business_areas/powertrain/motorbikes/ecu
Mechatronic Integrated Unit (MIU)
Mechatronic system designed to support the “traditional†architecture and made by integrating the following components in the same unit:
• Mechanic throttle body with diameters from 26 to 38mm and contactless potentiometer
• stepper motor for minimum control management
• air temperature sensor
• intake conduit pressure sensor
• control unit made using high-density SMD technology
• integrated immobilizer system
The MIU can withstand operating temperatures from–30°C to +90°C under complete operational conditions and from -40°C to +105°C in the heat stroke and it is intended for installation on the engine by means of rubber sleeve in order to reduce the levels of vibrations.
The connections to the external input/output are carried out by means of a single connector with 34 ways.
The control unit pilots up to 2 injection channels and 2 independent ignition channels, DC-motor for throttle movement and for those versions that require it, the traction control management is integrated at the logic level. Mixing is controlled by means of 2 lambda probes of the heated ON/OFF type.
Engine management can be selected by the rider through two different “mappingsâ€.
The MIU is designed for application to single-cylinder engines, but can also be used on twin-cylinder engines with single throttle body supply.
The system integrates all the main components of the injection system, ensuring a significant reduction in the number of components to be managed during the assembly and final testing phase of the engines/vehicles, with clear benefits in terms of production flexibility.
-
Thanks Kev - with Beetle saying the ECU was very basic I was wondering how basic it could be.
There is then the question of how much the ECU changes the a/f ratio when these variables alter.
In the text you quote about the MIU it says:
"Engine management can be selected by the rider through two different �mappings�.
We don't have this function available on the V7 MkI (nor I think the MkII?) - but it might be useful for comparing two maps while out on the road.
AndyB
-
Beetle is still working on the latest V7 ECU . Inside info suggests this is more than a simple remap , might not hurt to wait a bit and let our Ozzie genius develop his mods .
Dusty
-
Thanks Kev - with Beetle saying the ECU was very crude I was wondering how crude it could be.
There is then the question of how much the ECU changes the a/f ratio when these variables alter.
In the text you quote about the MIU it says:
"Engine management can be selected by the rider through two different �mappings�.
We don't have this function available on the V7 MkI (nor I think the MkII?) - but it might be useful for comparing two maps while out on the road.
AndyB
Yeah, that's a quote from the Marelli website telling us about the basic capabilities of the unit. But that was a feature which was obviously not incorporated into our usage. It raises the interesting question though whether or not the unit could be reprogrammed to accept multiple maps and an external switch added to select between them. We'd have the further issue of how to tell which is selected. But that would be neat if we could select one map say for economy and another for max "performance".
Part of my reluctance to go remapping is that as I've said my bike basically runs flawlessly after the initial warmup and I don't want to disrupt my economy/range (which is excellent at an easy 250-280 miles and sometimes more).
-
You always should read your stock/current map and save before writing in a new map. If you want to go back to original, you have that choice. Also you can load both maps in the editor and compare them.
When I was changing maps on my Griso, I kept 2 copies of everything, laptop and USB drive. Still have the maps, but not the bike. :-)
-
It raises the interesting question though whether or not the unit could be reprogrammed to accept multiple maps and an external switch added to select between them. We'd have the further issue of how to tell which is selected. But that would be neat if we could select one map say for economy and another for max "performance".
I'm sure that there ar some VW engineers who could help with that. :evil:
Cheers,
Shaun
-
I'm sure that there ar some VW engineers who could help with that. :evil:
Cheers,
Shaun
:laugh: :grin: :laugh: :bow:
-
Beetle - do the ECUs adjust for temperature and altitude? Just a thought, but my bike is used in UK at around 10 - 25C max, near sea level....so will run leaner than those lucky people who live in warmer climes or at higher altitudes.
Yes, as Kev mentioned, all FI system correct for temperature and air pressure. Actually, you've got it arse about. It will run more rich at sea level than at altitude. The correction tables add fuel at sea level/high air pressure/cooler temps as the air is more dense, so they add fuel to maintain AFR. At altitude they lean the mixture as the air is less dense. As temps go up, it's leaned out, as they go down, fuel is added. It's a look-up table.
With regard to the two different mappings, I think Guzzi utilise this feature in the late model V7 for traction control. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe when the ABS until senses a traction problem, the ECU switches to a different ignition map or somesuch to affect torque, and hence, traction.
-
Apologies if it's a nuffy question Beetle but I'm curious, would
any TPS that would fit work with any type of system,
or are they designed to work specifically with each
other?
Maurie.
-
Hi Beetle,
Maybe semantics, but I did not get it the wrong way around. If nothing changes in an injection or carb system then the a/f ratio will be leaner at sea level or when colder (where the air is denser so more available oxygen) and richer at altitude or when hotter (less available oxygen).
So as you say, compensation in the ECU SHOULD balance this out and maintain a steady a/f ratio at all T/P combinations - but is the standard MG map compensation correct? I have had to re-jet carbs on microlight engines for operation in Zambia and Nepal where we flew at low density altitudes and as you say the tables are available to make the adjustments.
No traction control on the V7 MkI, but what happens on the MkII with traction control I have no idea. As Kev says, a simple switch to be able to toggle between maps might be useful - it may be as simple as adding an extra wire to the plug going to the MIU.
Andy1
-
Yes, as Kev mentioned, all FI system correct for temperature and air pressure. Actually, you've got it arse about. It will run more rich at sea level than at altitude. The correction tables add fuel at sea level/high air pressure/cooler temps as the air is more dense, so they add fuel to maintain AFR. At altitude they lean the mixture as the air is less dense. As temps go up, it's leaned out, as they go down, fuel is added. It's a look-up table.
With regard to the two different mappings, I think Guzzi utilise this feature in the late model V7 for traction control. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe when the ABS until senses a traction problem, the ECU switches to a different ignition map or somesuch to affect torque, and hence, traction.
Yup, thats basically it. The 7SM uses a far more sophisticated system because of its RBW capacity. Both the MUIG and W5AM the traction control is fairly crude, simply retarding the spark I believe, to reduce torque.
Dunno about the second mapping option being used for that though? Given that the MUIG was principally designed for small single cylinder machines would it not make more sense to use the second mapping option for the delta cylinder? Your area though so I'd guess I'd better shaddap! :grin:
To be honest I tend to think the Trimap system used by Aprilia and I believe some other firms now is a bit of a wank. Surely given that everything else important stays the same, (Cam timing and lift, intake and exhaust parameters etc.) there will be one mapping solution that will achieve the 'Best' results in terms of overall performance and economy. Anything else is going to be a compromise? Things like a 'Rain' mode simply seem to be a way of allowing people without the necessary skills to operate a vehicle to do so with less risk. Strikes me that getting them to learn bit more would be a better way of dealing with their lack of skills but I suppose if you're a kid and know you're immortal then handling a 140RWHP Tuono 1100 which weighs about as much as a McDonalds 1/4 pounder or are a silly old fart who *Has* to have a huge Cruiser that weighs nearly half a tonne because anything less is a 'Girl's Bike' you probably need all the help you can get! :roll eyes:
Interestingly the Trimap system used on the Mana is completely different as its map selection is nothing to do with with the engine at all. It simply changes the pulley motions of the E-CVT. The difference being that in 'Touring' it hooks the transmission to the maximum torque point of the motor and in 'Sport' it moves the break points higher up the RPM range for more power. God alone knows what 'Rain' mode does as, as far as I can make out, it simply fills the CVT up with custard! At least thats what it feels like! :evil:
Pete
-
Apologies if it's a nuffy question Beetle but I'm curious, would
any TPS that would fit work with any type of system,
or are they designed to work specifically with each
other?
Maurie.
Though many TPS's are similar and some from one system may be adapted or adjusted to work on others, no they are not all compatible for various reasons:
1. Calibration
2. Physical mounting
Not to mention they are not replaceable separately from the throttle body on more and more modern EFI systems.
-
Correct. The MIU has an integrated TPS. Failure means new ECU.
-
So as you say, compensation in the ECU SHOULD balance this out and maintain a steady a/f ratio at all T/P combinations - but is the standard MG map compensation correct? I have had to re-jet carbs on microlight engines for operation in Zambia and Nepal where we flew at low density altitudes and as you say the tables are available to make the adjustments.
Well, since we're getting lost in semantics you'd have to better define "correct" to answer that.
I'll answer it a different way.
I've not seen a modern injected vehicle the doesn't basically run "correctly" be it at sea level or altitude.
Yes many can be made to run "better" but that's different than saying they were wrong to begin with.
Most EFI systems are designed to run at or near the stochiometric ideal air: fuel ratio (for cat-con operation) of 14.7:1 under certain conditions and go rich in others (WOT for example). As such they are designed to maintain this ratio at sea level or any expected altitude.
It's unlikely they are not doing so if they have been certified for EPA or EU emissions. And so it's unlikely the fueling tables are not "correct" for those conditions.
Semantics about the term "correct" aside.
-
Peter, unfortunately it is easier to dumb down the bike than train the rider.....I am not a fan of new riders having ABS / traction control. They should learn how to ride correctly...and this again follows through to there logically being just one optimum ECU map with others being dumbed down versions.
Rode a Mana in Jersey where the slow speed restrictions and country roads made it the ideal bike. Little engine breaking though, but the cubby hole in the tank was useful.
AndyB
-
It raises the interesting question though whether or not the unit could be reprogrammed to accept multiple maps and an external switch added to select between them. We'd have the further issue of how to tell which is selected. But that would be neat if we could select one map say for economy and another for max "performance".
When you're riding for economy the manifold vacuum or pressure is higher, the RPM lower, less throttle with gradual movement...A single program ECU can take care of that by leaning the mixture and advancing the timing, within reason....When you're on the throttle with higher rpm ,more throttle opening with faster acceleration, low intake vacuum and higher road speed that same program fattens the fuel mixture and pulls back the timing....it's not like the bike has other features like variable valve timing or devices that change exhaust flow...
-
Maybe semantics, but I did not get it the wrong way around. If nothing changes in an injection or carb system then the a/f ratio will be leaner at sea level or when colder (where the air is denser so more available oxygen) and richer at altitude or when hotter (less available oxygen).
Er, no. I read it like you wrote it. You can't think carburettor when talking fuel injection. Forget about carburettors.
So as you say, compensation in the ECU SHOULD balance this out and maintain a steady a/f ratio at all T/P combinations - but is the standard MG map compensation correct? I have had to re-jet carbs on microlight engines for operation in Zambia and Nepal where we flew at low density altitudes and as you say the tables are available to make the adjustments.
All FI, not just Guzzi. Enough with the carburettors! :laugh:
No traction control on the V7 MkI, but what happens on the MkII with traction control I have no idea. As Kev says, a simple switch to be able to toggle between maps might be useful - it may be as simple as adding an extra wire to the plug going to the MIU.
Nup. Not that easy. The ECU can be programmed to accept a toggle input, but not by us. It's all done in the firmware, which only the OEM can access.
-
Hi Kev,
In UK there seems to an issue of V7 bikes faltering at start up and hesitating at low revs. The problem appears to be less in the US (eg your bike). Why?? Maybe due to UK being colder in the riding season and perhaps lower and the map not adequately enrichening the mixture to compensate for this? Without access to the maps and knowing how the MG compensation compares with the tables I can not say if the compensation is CORRECT - but in UK conditions the standard V7 engine seems to run lean. Is my use of CORRECT clear now?
As an aside, before I put in thinner oil in the forks, they only worked in any way adequately on our one day of 30C temperatures! (...a typical temperature in Italy).
Andy1
-
Dunno about the second mapping option being used for that though? Given that the MUIG was principally designed for small single cylinder machines would it not make more sense to use the second mapping option for the delta cylinder? Your area though so I'd guess I'd better shaddap! :grin:
Well, in the V7 map there's a table that's all zeroes. We think it's an ignition delta map. The same map in the V7II has values in it. The actual fuel maps function independently of each other. So there's no delta fuel map, there's a left & right fuel map.
-
When you're riding for economy the manifold vacuum or pressure is higher, the RPM lower, less throttle with gradual movement...A single program ECU can take care of that by leaning the mixture and advancing the timing, within reason....When you're on the throttle with higher rpm ,more throttle opening with faster acceleration, low intake vacuum and higher road speed that same program fattens the fuel mixture and pulls back the timing....it's not like the bike has other features like variable valve timing or devices that change exhaust flow...
In theory, except if you're looking to solve "performance" like cold start, stumbling or surging that some complain about. That is if the answer is enrichening all over the map and shutting off lambdas.
I mean you just can't safely approach the leanness of closed loop operation with an open loop setup which is why we have closed loop injection.
-
Hi Kev,
In UK there seems to an issue of V7 bikes faltering at start up and hesitating at low revs. The problem appears to be less in the US (eg your bike). Why?? Maybe due to UK being colder in the riding season and perhaps lower and the map not adequately enrichening the mixture to compensate for this? Without access to the maps and knowing how the MG compensation compares with the tables I can not say if the compensation is CORRECT - but in UK conditions the standard V7 engine seems to run lean. Is my use of CORRECT clear now?
Colder or lower than where?
We're basically at sea level here and I ride all year.
I think we're not going to see eye to eye on correct.
I'm sure the EU tested that motor just like the EPA here and required similar lean standards in closed-loop operation.
Maybe humidity plays a part, but even then I can't say I've noticed any changes in operation once warm under those conditions that I'd call "incorrect".
-
Though many TPS's are similar and some from one system may be adapted or adjusted to work on others, no they are not all compatible for various reasons:
1. Calibration
2. Physical mounting
Not to mention they are not replaceable separately from the throttle body on more and more modern EFI systems.
Thanks Kev.
-
That is if the answer is enrichening all over the map and shutting off lambdas.
Which, in the case of the V7, I can assure you it is not.
-
Which, in the case of the V7, I can assure you it is not.
I'm sure it's not, in YOUR case.
-
In theory, except if you're looking to solve "performance" like cold start, stumbling or surging that some complain about. That is if the answer is enrichening all over the map and shutting off lambdas.
I mean you just can't safely approach the leanness of closed loop operation with an open loop setup which is why we have closed loop injection.
Do other bikes have the problem? Do cars and trucks have that problem? If your answer is no or not many, then for the bike in question it's a lack of attention to details because of money constraints or poor development of the electronic engine management...You know how fix it...
-
Please refer to my post in reply #29 of this thread.
-
I'm sure it's not, in YOUR case.
I meant in general for any V7. Simply disabling the lambda and adding fuel across the board is NOT the answer.
-
I meant in general for any V7. Simply disabling the lambda and adding fuel across the board is NOT the answer.
You continue to misunderstand me. I was already certain that would be a bad idea and I was already certain it wouldn't be YOUR solution (but WOULD be someone else's).
Do other bikes have the problem? Do cars and trucks have that problem? If your answer is no or not many, then for the bike in question it's a lack of attention to details because of money constraints or poor development of the electronic engine management...You know how fix it...
I'm really not sure what you're getting at.
MY POINT is that most/all vehicles don't have a "problem" per se.
Including, from extensive personal experience, the V7 at least not systematicly.
-
You continue to misunderstand me. I was already certain that would be a bad idea and I was already certain it wouldn't be YOUR solution (but WOULD be someone else's).
I understood that. :laugh: I'll shut up now.
-
I understood that. [emoji23] I'll shut up now.
OK, then maybe I continue to misunderstand you and it's my turn to shut up. [emoji56]
-
Peter, unfortunately it is easier to dumb down the bike than train the rider.....I am not a fan of new riders having ABS / traction control. They should learn how to ride correctly...and this again follows through to there logically being just one optimum ECU map with others being dumbed down versions.
Rode a Mana in Jersey where the slow speed restrictions and country roads made it the ideal bike. Little engine breaking though, but the cubby hole in the tank was useful.
AndyB
Even in the full auto modes you can change 'Down' using the paddles or foot lever. Snap it down two ratios and there's plenty of engine braking! If you want more slowing down? Do what I and a few others have done and graft a Tuono front end with 100mm radial Brembos with HH pads in on. Stops like hitting a bus! :evil:
Pete
-
In theory, except if you're looking to solve "performance" like cold start, stumbling or surging that some complain about. That is if the answer is enrichening all over the map and shutting off lambdas.
I mean you just can't safely approach the leanness of closed loop operation with an open loop setup which is why we have closed loop injection.
Kev, you are wrong, lambda is there only to get inside regulations. Not for running the engine better. It would be nice but that needs a wide band sensor, that no Guzzi has. I know of no motorcycle that has wideband lambda. But i'm not to knowledgeable about other makes.
-
Kev, you are wrong, lambda is there only to get inside regulations. Not for running the engine better. It would be nice but that needs a wide band sensor, that no Guzzi has. I know of no motorcycle that has wideband lambda. But i'm not to knowledgeable about other makes.
What am I wrong about? I didn't say the lambda increases power/performance. I said it allows the engine to be run leaner than it otherwise safely could.
How are you contradicting that?
I think I should give up on this thread cause no one seems to be understanding my point.
I said you can't safely run an engine that lean without one (narrow-band or not).
Here are my points:
* Hundreds of millions of cars and EFI bikes run cleaner than their formerly carbureted counterparts.
* Hundreds of millions of cars and EFI bikes run without problems, despite the fact that they pollute less.
* You can't safely run as lean as you do with closed loop EFI systems using open loop EFI or carburetors. If you could the industry wouldn't have had to go to closed loop systems to make emissions standards.
Are some of the standards pushing parts of EFI maps towards the limits of lean operation? Sure.
Could more "performance" be found from richening up parts of maps? Sure.
Can you even find some additional fuel economy in other parts of maps? Possibly, depends on a lot of factors, like did you dump the stock cat-con exhaust.
Is there a "need" to remap a stock car or bike? Arguable, but my position based on the previous statements is generally no. That's not to say some improvements can't be made, but unless something else is wrong (and sometimes people have trouble finding what that is) a stock machine should run well.
And I'm not saying you can't increase the performance of many machines. But you generally do so at the cost of emissions and often the cost of less efficiency.
In all my life I can only think of one stock machine I encountered that showed any real problem with the stock fuel management system that wasn't resolved from simple maintenance or factory recalibration, it was my Breva 1100, and Pete's suspicion was that it was simply a bad/partially corrupt ECU. Certainly everyone else around here with a stock 4V CARC seems to think they ran without problem.
The only "problem" I've seen on my V7 is a cold start stumble that goes away in minutes as the combustion chamber comes up to temp and usually stays away the whole day afterward. Meaning that it runs fine 99.99% of operation.
I would hate to lose a few mpg of efficiency chasing more "performance".
Yeah I've heard reports of a supposedly "smoother" running V7 or "better throttle response" but often those are tied to reports of at least sight decreases in fuel economy. That's something I don't want to give up for the easily fooled butt dyno/butt reviewed claimed "benefits", especially if I don't have a perceived problem in the first place.
That clarify it?
-
Hi Kev,
If my V7 had run from new like how you describe yours, then like you I would not have changed anything. Why the difference between our bikes? I thought it might be the environments we rode in - but you don'tthink this is the reason.
But my bike (like quite a few others) did not run right......and the low speed hesitancy in particular I found quite dangerous when pulling out of a junction or making a tight turn as the engine felt it might stop.
So (after the dealer pointed out the fault to me on a road test after fitting a new ECU / TB, but was unable to do anything about it) my options were:
A) sell the bike / return it to MG
B) do something about it myself....and all I could do was remove the lambdas.
Luckily Option B worked - and I wanted to share that solution with others whose bikes may have the same hesistancy below 4000rpm.
Now Beetle is working on it there may well be another solution available soon - but six months ago my only other option was a GT remap.
I would disagree with one thing you have said, however, about the removal of the lambdas making the a/f ratio richer 'all over the map'. They only effect the bike when it is in closed loop operation below about 4000rpm. At faster speeds the engine runs in open circuit so they are redundant. Or am I wrong on this?
Andy1
-
For the record, I'm appreciating the discussion.
I don't purport to have all the answers and I'm wiling to learn too.
Hi Kev,
If my V7 had run from new like how you describe yours, then like you I would not have changed anything. Why the difference between our bikes? I thought it might be the environments we rode in - but you don'tthink this is the reason.
But my bike (like quite a few others) did not run right......and the low speed hesitancy in particular I found quite dangerous when pulling out of a junction or making a tight turn as the engine felt it might stop.
So (after the dealer pointed out the fault to me on a road test after fitting a new ECU / TB, but was unable to do anything about it) my options were:
A) sell the bike / return it to MG
B) do something about it myself....and all I could do was remove the lambdas.
Luckily Option B worked - and I wanted to share that solution with others whose bikes may have the same hesistancy below 4000rpm.
Now Beetle is working on it there may well be another solution available soon - but six months ago my only other option was a GT remap.
I would disagree with one thing you have said, however, about the removal of the lambdas making the a/f ratio richer 'all over the map'. They only effect the bike when it is in closed loop operation below about 4000rpm. At faster speeds the engine runs in open circuit so they are redundant. Or am I wrong on this?
Andy1
If your bike was indeed surging and showing those symptoms that mine and the others around here have not then I do not blame you at all for pursuing a fix (unplugging lamdbas or otherwise). As a matter of fact, when I think about it, when my Breva 1100 was pinging uncharacteristicall y when new (and during the 2 years of warranty) I pursued it every way I could through MG before I finally GAVE UP and had the ECU remapped. And that DID INDEED FIX IT. Which frustrates me because I never found out WHY it was doing it in the first place and WHY SO MANY OTHERS WERE NOT. It simply could be that whatever part of the ECU or original map (which was reloaded by multiple dealers) was corrupt or not working was indeed either fixed or ignored by the remap.
Back to you. I don't believe anyone has confirmed whether ALL operation above 4k is open loop. I personally don't believe that's accurate. As I've said, if it's 4k or 4.5k but steady throttle, it may indeed enter closed loop, but I don't know for sure one way or the other.
As to that, yes, I obviously do not mean that unplugging the lambdas will richen operation under circumstances which would have been open loop in the first place. I meant, all over the map where it WOULD have leaned it out for closed loop (idle, steady throttle etc.).
Maybe Beetle can educate us more on this now or after he's finished on any new map revisions for the 1TB V7.
-
The closed loop area is generally defined by the Euro emissions test requirements. I don't have the documents at hand at present, but IIRC, they test at both idle and cruise. Cruise for a Guzzi is around 3600 RPM in top gear. OEM's usually set the CL area at below 50-60% max RPM and 15% throttle. There's no hard cutoff at 4000 RPM. Engine temperature also comes into play, and CL is active above 55-60 degrees C. Outside of this range, the ECU runs open loop.
-
Maybe I missed this Beetle, but what then is the point of the O2 sensors in a bike running your map? Does your map effectively turn them off or not use their inputs?
I get the impression that the O2 sensors come into play only in a certain range of rev/throttle openings. And that this happens largely or exclusively to satisfy emissions requirements, as opposed to just making the engine run sweet and happy.
Am I missing some nuance here? In a perfect world with this particular ECU, do you want or need the Lambda sensor input??
And if you go from the Guzzi OEM exhaust pipes to aftermarket pipes like the Mistrals, do they even have a bung that accepts the O2 sensors?
Sorry. I be stupid about this stuff. Edumacate me, please.
-
AFAIK am aftermarket maps are open loop.
The lambda sensors are turned off and can if wanted be removed but if they are left in place they should be plugged in so the heating elements can prevent them from clogging.
On the twin lambda bikes the sensors are in the headers so swapping pipes doesn't require removal or relocation unless the headers are being replaced as well.
Pete
-
Thanks Pete
-
Maybe I missed this Beetle, but what then is the point of the O2 sensors in a bike running your map? Does your map effectively turn them off or not use their inputs?
With one exception (my Griso), all my maps are open loop. The sensors will still function, as Pete says, but their output is ignored.
I get the impression that the O2 sensors come into play only in a certain range of rev/throttle openings. And that this happens largely or exclusively to satisfy emissions requirements, as opposed to just making the engine run sweet and happy.
Correct. Exclusively for emissions requirements. They serve no other purpose.
Am I missing some nuance here? In a perfect world with this particular ECU, do you want or need the Lambda sensor input??
No, but the those who claim to protect us from ourselves, demand they be used.
And if you go from the Guzzi OEM exhaust pipes to aftermarket pipes like the Mistrals, do they even have a bung that accepts the O2 sensors?
They must if they are classified as street legal.
-
Maybe I missed this Beetle, but what then is the point of the O2 sensors in a bike running your map? Does your map effectively turn them off or not use their inputs?
I get the impression that the O2 sensors come into play only in a certain range of rev/throttle openings. And that this happens largely or exclusively to satisfy emissions requirements, as opposed to just making the engine run sweet and happy.
Am I missing some nuance here? In a perfect world with this particular ECU, do you want or need the Lambda sensor input??
And if you go from the Guzzi OEM exhaust pipes to aftermarket pipes like the Mistrals, do they even have a bung that accepts the O2 sensors?
Sorry. I be stupid about this stuff. Edumacate me, please.
The Mistrals in particular are after the sensor so unless I replaced the entire pipe they are still in the same location.
-
Now returning to the statements that the Lambdas are ONLY for emissions purposes.
We've been told that they do allow for a small range of self-adjustment/fuel trim. And Pete has said before that manipulation of the signal can result in change (sometimes dangerous ones) to air/fuel ratio.
So even if we accept that the primary purpose is emissions (and I do), should we not also recognize that they DO effect performance (proper running) of the machine to some small extent?
Or Beetle/Paul, are you saying the small extent is negligible? But if so, why reset trim after ECU updates etc.?
-
Hi Kev,
As a matter of fact, when I think about it, when my Breva 1100 was pinging uncharacteristicall y when new (and during the 2 years of warranty) I pursued it every way I could through MG before I finally GAVE UP and had the ECU remapped. And that DID INDEED FIX IT. Which frustrates me because I never found out WHY it was doing it in the first place and WHY SO MANY OTHERS WERE NOT.
I've just stumbled across this thread and thought I might share some of my findings, based on more than 3 years of data logging Lambda left/right, voltage, TPS, RPM, engine, oil and air temperature and manifold pressure on my V11 and Jackal.
I built an ECU bench to measure the influence of changing single parameters while keeping all others steady. The latest incarnation, Mk VI, includes a narrow band lambda sensor simulator and can be used with the 15M or 15RC.
And have also deep dived into the dissassembled program code of the 15M and RC.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/meMZmF/IMAG0155.jpg) (http://ibb.co/meMZmF)
upload image (http://imgbb.com/)
The resulting BINs are used by quite a few Guzzisti around the world, several of them are members of this board and shared their feedback here.
The underlying assumption when optimizing BINs is that the engine and its relevant components are subject to deviations of the original blueprint. And recognizing that Guzzi wasn't big enough to spend much time in optimizing its BINs to a degree available to larger manufacturers.
This begins with very basic parameters such as barometric pressure and air temperature trim. The trim tables used in the 15M/RC and previous ECUs are basically flat, that is they don't correct fuel injected to correspond to the changes in air mass (Mark will know better than me if this is still and issue with later ECUs). And continues with significant differences in lambda between the left and right cylinder.
Now, the most likely explanation why you had pinging on your Breva while others didn't is that the series deviation of one or more components aggregated to such a degree that the BIN just didn't fit anymore. This might have been ignition or mixture-related, who knows.
Cheers
Meinolf
-
Hi Kev,
I've just stumbled across this thread and thought I might share some of my findings, based on more almost 3 years of data logging Lambda left/right, voltage, TPS, RPM, engine, oil and air temperature and manifold pressure on my V11 and Jackal.
I built an ECU bench to measure the influence of changing single parameters while keeping all others steady. The latest incarnation, Mk VI, includes a narrow band lambda sensor simulator and can be used with the 15M or 15RC.
And have also deep dived into the dissassembled program code of the 15M and RC.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/meMZmF/IMAG0155.jpg) (http://ibb.co/meMZmF)
upload image (http://imgbb.com/)
The resulting BINs are used by quite a few Guzzisti around the world, several of them are members of this board and shared their feedback here.
The underlying assumption when optimizing BINs is that the engine and its relevant components are subject to deviations of the original. And recognizing that Guzzi wasn't big enough to spend much time in optimizing its BINs to a degree available to larger manufacturers.
This begins with very basic parameters such as barometric pressure and air temperature trim. The trim tables used in the 15M/RC and previous ECUs are basically flat, that is they don't correct fuel injected to correspond to the changes in air mass (Mark will know better than me if this is still and issue with later ECUs). And continues with significant differences in lambda between the left and right cylinder.
Now, the most likely explanation why you had pinging on your Breva while others didn't is that the series deviation of one or more components aggregated to such a degree that the BIN just didn't fit anymore. This might have been ignition or mixture-related, who knows.
Cheers
Meinolf
Wow, thanks so much for that.
Interesting too that the Jackal in the EU was equipped with feedback injection as my US model (2000) was only open-loop (no lambda).
I wonder if the same sort of series deviation can be blamed for the problems on some 1TB V7 models, or if that shouldn't be the case when so many of the components are all contained within the single TB unit (ECM, TPS, IAT, etc.)?
-
Meinolf.
Wow.
I love this forum.
-
So even if we accept that the primary purpose is emissions (and I do), should we not also recognize that they DO effect performance (proper running) of the machine to some small extent?
No.
For the V7, being a relatively low power, mid capacity engine, it could be made to work. The problem is that Guzzi have approached it by modifying the FI to pass the relevant emissions test, without modifying the engine. The same engine/exhaust design that's been around for decades. It's a kludge. They haven't modified the engine/exhaust to suit the requirements, they fudged the fueling.
For the big blocks? Hells no.
Or Beetle/Paul, are you saying the small extent is negligible? But if so, why reset trim after ECU updates etc.?
Simples. If you update the ECU, and there's a significant change in the mapping that might affect the fuel delivery, we want to start from a zero baseline so that any autolearned trims will not adversely affect running.
-
So what effect is the auto learned trim having then?
-
So what effect is the auto learned trim having then?
A manufacturer with less money to throw around might be inclined to make a map that's just "good enough". Throw in a narrow band sensor and it will average out the fueling to make it as close as possible to the emissions target AFR in closed loop and the job's done. That doesn't mean it's controlling the fueling in real time at every throttle / rpm position though. For that you need a wideband sensor. That's why some people like to remap, to get it "right".
If you are going you remap, you want to get rid of the auto learn correction factor to have a proper starting point, otherwise your carefully set up new map would be worthless after a simple battery disconnect.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
So what effect is the auto learned trim having then?
Trims to the AFR to somewhere around 14.5 - 15.5. Too lean for the the engine/exhaust configuration we get from Guzzi.
A manufacturer with less money to throw around might be inclined to make a map that's just "good enough".
Describes Guzzi perfectly. :laugh:
-
Trims to the AFR to somewhere around 14.5 - 15.5. Too lean for the the engine/exhaust configuration we get from Guzzi.
I guess the problem comes defining "too lean".
What problem or damage is it causing?
Look, I want my bike to run as well as the next guy. But I don't feel the need to waste fuel or pollute to do it.
Currently the ONLY symptom I'm showing of any "problem" is the cold idle stumble on initial start.
And, ok, there's a little more discoloration of the headers than I'd like, but if it's limited to that it's hardly a problem.
So what problems would I want to fix?
-
HI Kev,
Interesting too that the Jackal in the EU was equipped with feedback injection as my US model (2000) was only open-loop (no lambda).
I must have misexpressed myself. To the best of my knowledge the OEM ECU of the Jackal always was a 15M (open loop). I added the narrow band part to my ECU test bench because I'm trying to apply the knowledge gained about the 15M to the 15RC due to popular demand :laugh:
I wonder if the same sort of series deviation can be blamed for the problems on some 1TB V7 models, or if that shouldn't be the case when so many of the components are all contained within the single TB unit (ECM, TPS, IAT, etc.)?
Yes. The ECU is the least part of the problem - only its analog (electrical) components could contribute to the series deviation, the digital part (program code and tables/scalars) not. All other components are the same as used on any engine.
Cheers
Meinolf
-
Hi Kev,
I guess the problem comes defining "too lean". What problem or damage is it causing?
An excellent question. In an engine designed to run lean (which Guzzis aren't) too lean would simply be a mixture which doesn't ignite.
In an real life engine there are more possible effects.
While there's no significant difference between burn speed of rich or lean mixture, the lean mixture needs more time to ignite. Which, if the ignition timing is not set up (= spark occurs earlier) for a lean mixture, will lead to a max. pressure inside the combustion chamber being later than optimal. The rule of thumb is that you want to have max. pressure ~10-15� after TDC.
Even more problematic is pinging, which is a pressure maximum before or to shortly after TDC. Pinging is a typical symptom of a mixture to lean.
Look, I want my bike to run as well as the next guy. But I don't feel the need to waste fuel or pollute to do it
I applaud and support your view that we must protect our environment and should not pollute it. If you have the time and take a look at the diagram
(http://thumb.ibb.co/hvqKmF/Afr_gas.jpg) (http://ibb.co/hvqKmF)
(the source is: http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/Authority/command-authority.html) you will see two vertical lines. The red one is at ~13 (AFR) and is the mixture at which the highest power is generated, the blue one is at ~17 (AFR) and provides the best economy.
If you place horizontal lines in the diagram and compare the respective values of CO, CO2, HC and NOx it becomes clear that less CO2 and NOx is produced at the max. power point, HC is roughly the same and only CO is lower at the best economy spot. Catalytic converters work most efficiently at stoichic mixure, which is why a narrrow band sensor is used. The narrow band sensor is just a toggle switch with an rich and lean output. It can not provide detailed enough information about the AFR - just rich or lean.
If you furthermore take into account that power = torque x revolutions, and torque diminishes if the mixture generates less power (very unprecise wording, but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say), then you need to increase the number of revolutions to get the same power. More revolutions amount to more air mass moved through the engine, which amounts to more fuel injected, even if the mixture is leaner. Plus more friction, higher pumping losses, etc. The result is that an engine (and the entire context) not specifically designed for lean operation will use the same or higher amount of fuel and generate more harmful substances than the same engine running a richer mixture.
Currently the ONLY symptom I'm showing of any "problem" is the cold idle stumble on initial start
The ECU doesn't use closed loop after (any) start (for number of revolutions defined in one of the scalars used by the program code) and below a specified engine temperature (also defined in a scalar in the code). The cause rather is a mixture either to lean or to rich for the ambient factors (engine/air temperature) at cold start. Rather easily fixed if the AFR is known during occurence.
Cheers
Meinolf
PS Above is summary. Many more factors are contributing, I just tried to keep it short and simple.
-
Meinolf,
Great info and contributions. Thank you for all that.
Does this chart show the effect with or without the use of a Cat-Con? And if without, how does that change the picture?
Now if we accept that chart what conclusion would you draw from remapping so it runs closer to 13.0:1 much of the time (when it would have otherwise been in closed-loop and averaging closer to Stoich/14.7:1 or so)?
It looks to me like you would actually reduce CO2 and NOx, increase HC slightly and CO significantly, while also reducing MPG.
But I see where you go and conclude that less power means the motor is going to have turn more rpm for the same amount of work, and since this is a snapshot of combustion not accounting for the factor of time, that you are suggesting at 13.0:1 a motor may actually pollute less because of the time factor yes?
Is that a universal equivalency, or does it change with any given motor, with different ambient conditions, with different rpm/load?
I mean if it's that simple, why wouldn't the regulating bodies of the EU and US (EPA) allow a richer target mixture at the current test points?
-
I guess the problem comes defining "too lean".
What problem or damage is it causing?
Look, I want my bike to run as well as the next guy. But I don't feel the need to waste fuel or pollute to do it.
Currently the ONLY symptom I'm showing of any "problem" is the cold idle stumble on initial start.
And, ok, there's a little more discoloration of the headers than I'd like, but if it's limited to that it's hardly a problem.
So what problems would I want to fix?
I believe both myself and Meinolf have answered that question. However, no one is telling you to 'fix' the 'problem', but you argue there's no need to 'fix' a 'problem' that you don't have. Good for you that you're happy with your V7. Not every one is, and we're trying to 'fix' the 'problem' for them.
At this time, I'm trying to fix the cold start stumble. Everything else is secondary. I know what issue is, but getting around it is proving problematic. Before you ask, the cause can't be fixed, but I'm hoping to affect a workaround.
-
I mean if it's that simple, why wouldn't the regulating bodies of the EU and US (EPA) allow a richer target mixture at the current test points?
Egads!
Some light reading for you:
US regs: LINKY (http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=620bf9f924a835822fd4c718d18607cf&rgn=div8&view=text&node=40:19.0.1.1.2.5.1.13&idno=40)
Euro regs: LINKY (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32002L0051)
-
Hi Kev,
The Euro 3 and 4 requirements are for emissions, not A/F ratios. The manufacturer can have whatever A/F ratios they want - it is what comes out of the exhaust (and fuel tank breather) that is measured.
Hi Beetle,
I had a quick look at the link you put for Europe but it looks like it is out of date? It seemed to be dated 2002, or have I misread it?
Why is the cold start stumble the priority? To me it was definately the slow speed abilities of the engine (when warm) which was the issue - although these problems may well be linked.
Andy1
-
I believe both myself and Meinolf have answered that question. However, no one is telling you to 'fix' the 'problem', but you argue there's no need to 'fix' a 'problem' that you don't have. Good for you that you're happy with your V7. Not every one is, and we're trying to 'fix' the 'problem' for them.
At this time, I'm trying to fix the cold start stumble. Everything else is secondary. I know what issue is, but getting around it is proving problematic. Before you ask, the cause can't be fixed, but I'm hoping to affect a workaround.
I think you might be misunderstanding my attempt to understand the nuances of your work and how it relates to both emissions standards OEM maps with a criticism of your work. That's not the case.
-
Hi Kev,
The Euro 3 and 4 requirements are for emissions, not A/F ratios. The manufacturer can have whatever A/F ratios they want - it is what comes out of the exhaust (and fuel tank breather) that is measured.
I fully understand that but they are linked.
If as Meinlof is suggesting actual emissions will be lower over time with a richer A/F ratio why wouldn't someone have explained and proved that to regulating bodies by now to allow "better' A/F ratios. Not MG, but certainly someone with the money of Honda, Harley, Polaris etc. could accomplish that.
-
My guess would be because the people they are trying to convince are politicians and populists so the explanations and solutions tend to need to be dumbed down and simplified to make them appealing.
Rather than looking for a best sollution it will tend to be led towards a simple one that makes them look good.
-
Hi Beetle,
I had a quick look at the link you put for Europe but it looks like it is out of date? It seemed to be dated 2002, or have I misread it?
Why is the cold start stumble the priority? To me it was definately the slow speed abilities of the engine (when warm) which was the issue - although these problems may well be linked.
Andy1
That ruling (Euro 3) expired at the end of 2015. Euro 4 is currently in effect, and it has even tighter emissions.
The low speed abilities can be easily fixed by switching lambda off. The cold start issue is driving a lot of people crazy (at least the majority that contact me).
-
The emission test will be a snapshot of what comes out of the exhaust at a certain RPM / load rather than projecting the overall emissions which the engine will produce in moving the vehicle a certain distance.......howe ver for (say) a 100hp engine which will hardly ever run at full power on a public road the test is probably relevant.
It is up to the manufacturers to decide how to pass those tests....VW's method seems to have backfired on them!
Andy1
-
Hi Beetle,
So is disabling / removing the lambdas now your method of improving the slow speed and start up stumble (sounds like a dance routine!)
Andy1
-
Can't see how that would work as there is no lambda input during warm up. You can see it activate with PADS and probably Guzzidiag.
Anyway I've sent my PADS to Mark to play with while I'm away in the UK. Hopefully he can glean something useful with it.
Pete
-
What is PADS?
Andy1
-
The shitty, godawful factory diagnostic tool.
-
Particularly awful diagnostic system .
Dusty
-
Just about sums it up.
-
I think you might be misunderstanding my attempt to understand the nuances of your work and how it relates to both emissions standards OEM maps with a criticism of your work. That's not the case.
I probably am misunderstanding.
You said:
What problem or damage is it causing?
I said:
Trims to the AFR to somewhere around 14.5 - 15.5. Too lean for the the engine/exhaust configuration we get from Guzzi.
Meinolf said:
An excellent question. In an engine designed to run lean (which Guzzis aren't) too lean would simply be a mixture which doesn't ignite.
In an real life engine there are more possible effects.
Which is the crux of the matter. Meinolf explained it better than I.
It is my opinion that current Guzzi engines in are being made to run on the lean side of optimal simply to meet emissions requirements.
-
It is up to the manufacturers to decide how to pass those tests....VW's method seems to have backfired on them!
VW cheated with their Diesel engines. Guzzi fiddle with the FI, ignition timing and stuff like air injection. It doesn't seem to matter how it affects the ride, as long as it passes the test.
-
Hi Beetle,
So is disabling / removing the lambdas now your method of improving the slow speed and start up stumble (sounds like a dance routine!)
Andy1
No. I disable the lambda and modify the maps and correction tables for overall performance. The cold start issue is independent of the lambda. At start, the ECU operates in open loop.
-
I probably am misunderstanding.
You said:
I said:
Meinolf said:
Which is the crux of the matter. Meinolf explained it better than I.
It is my opinion that current Guzzi engines in are being made to run on the lean side of optimal simply to meet emissions requirements.
Well I don't mean to nit pick, but: "on the lean side of optimal" doesn't actually answer the question of what the actual harm is.
Let's define it, is the leanness:
1. Causing engine damage from excessive temperatures? (And if so, what is being damaged/how?)
2. Causing inefficiency in the form of lower fuel mileage?
3. Causing excessive pollution? (One argument to this effect has been put forth, but questions remain unanswered)?
4. Causing poor performance? This is where I think we'll find some meat with regards to some of the complaints of cold stumble, low rpm surging, or other rideability complaints.
My anecdotal evidence is just the seeming trouble-free operation of bikes with which I'm familiar. And perhaps reports of how much more reliable modern vehicles are than their predecessors.
I'll throw in the non-scientific observation of how much you can smell the difference of a carbureted motor vs a modern EFI motor these days.
But I'm open to learning what these lean AF mixtures are doing to us and our machines.
-
Well I don't mean to nit pick, but: "on the lean side of optimal" doesn't actually answer the question of what the actual harm is.
I never once said it was causing harm.
Let's define it, is the leanness:
1. Causing engine damage from excessive temperatures? (And if so, what is being damaged/how?)
2. Causing inefficiency in the form of lower fuel mileage?
3. Causing excessive pollution? (One argument to this effect has been put forth, but questions remain unanswered)?
No to all the above.
4. Causing poor performance? This is where I think we'll find some meat with regards to some of the complaints of cold stumble, low rpm surging, or other rideability complaints.
Yes. That's what I said .
My anecdotal evidence is just the seeming trouble-free operation of bikes with which I'm familiar. And perhaps reports of how much more reliable modern vehicles are than their predecessors.
There it is. Your anecdotal evidence of bikes you're familiar with. Not every other V7 owner has had your good fortune.
I'll throw in the non-scientific observation of how much you can smell the difference of a carbureted motor vs a modern EFI motor these days.
But I'm open to learning what these lean AF mixtures are doing to us and our machines.
Carburettors are outside the scope of this discussion. Lean AFR is not hurting us. Forget this 'harm' business. No one, nor any bike, will be 'harmed' by a stock configuration. How did that even get into this discussion? I'm talking performance. Not more power or going faster performance, but a good running engine.
-
Beetle, I sincerely apologise if I'm frustrating you, that's NOT my intention. I'm thick sometimes when I'm trying to reason through something.
I never once said it was causing harm.
No to all the above.
Yes. That's what I said .
There it is. Your anecdotal evidence of bikes you're familiar with. Not every other V7 owner has had your good fortune.
Carburettors are outside the scope of this discussion. Lean AFR is not hurting us. Forget this 'harm' business. No one, nor any bike, will be 'harmed' by a stock configuration. How did that even get into this discussion? I'm talking performance. Not more power or going faster performance, but a good running engine.
Perfect, thanks for that response because it suggests we're really about on the same page here.
Except maybe my "good fortune" shouldn't really be good fortune. I mean, if one buys a new vehicle can't we about expect it to run well (without significant fault, as "well" as I and so many here seem to think they do stock)?
I guess my original point was that if something is not right (Andy's bike) then isn't something WRONG other than the common map? Unless it's the deviation of components like our new friend Meinholf was talking about (which I'm open too). But isn't it reasonable to expect a new vehicle to run without significant issue and not REQUIRE a remap to do that?
Maybe not (see my Breva). I'm open to the possibility.
Anyway, I think the talk of harm) came from posts 80, 103, and finally the one of yours (sorry had a couple of beers and can't remember the #) I quoted where you talk about the AF ratio being too lean.
It's partly thread drift because of a conversation the takes place over multiple days in a difficult format.
But it comes back to the concept of whether or not the stock map is "too" lean or not (define the parameters that make up "too").
I guess my position has been that if so many bikes run so well with the stock map that by definition it's not "too" lean.
But again I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong based on what Meinholf is saying could explain the away.
I.E. the map is not too lean UNLESS you happen to have the unfortunate luck to get a unit whereby the sum of the EFI parts are not equal to the usual whole, then the map isn't sufficient.
Is that the common explanation for my old Breva and Andy's (and some other's) V7's?.
If so great, thanks for your patience.
-
I can't tell if people are getting irritated with each other or with this thread. But I'm certainly enjoying it and trying to learn.
My personal experience with a 13 Stone is not the cold start stumble. Probably because I've long been in the habit of letting the bike warm up thoroughly while I gear up.
My fueling issue is that the bike does seem to run lean, or hesitate, or surge at low throttle settings at lowish speeds. Like 25 to 45 mph in town.
And if I'm understanding Beetle correctly, his map could fix exactly that problem.
-
The correct answer is
Dusty
-
I .
My fueling issue is that the bike does seem to run lean, or hesitate, or surge at low throttle settings at lowish speeds. Like 25 to 45 mph in town.
If I understand it you've got more miles on one of these than any one we know.
You mind if I ask the rpm range you're talking about for those speeds?
-
Except maybe my "good fortune" shouldn't really be good fortune. I mean, if one buys a new vehicle can't we about expect it to run well (without significant fault, as "well" as I and so many here seem to think they do stock)?
It's a perception/expectation thing. Yes, one does (and should) expect their vehicle to run correctly. I'll use the example of the Griso. Straight off the showroom floor and even after it's first service (by Roper), my Griso hunted and stumbled at low speed and city riding, and drank fuel like there's was no tomorrow when things got busy. The fuel guzzling didn't bother me too much, but the hunting was driving me crazy. To this day, however, there are folks who tell me their Griso runs and rides perfectly. I've even got hate mail telling me I'm a snake oil salesman and that I've duped everybody. That's outweighed by the folks telling me their Griso runs perfectly now.
So are those who are happy with their bike mistaken, or were those that were unhappy mistaken? Should I have just accepted that's the way a Griso ran? Or was I being too sensitive? Was there something wrong with the bike, or me?
Was it the fuel? The altitude? The temperature? Loose exhaust seal? Because it was my first Guzzi? Friday build? Normal or abnormal?
I don't know, and I've stopped asking. It just is.
I guess my original point was that if something is not right (Andy's bike) then isn't something WRONG other than the common map? Unless it's the deviation of components like our new friend Meinholf was talking about (which I'm open too). But isn't it reasonable to expect a new vehicle to run without significant issue and not REQUIRE a remap to do that?
See above.
Anyway, I think the talk of harm) came from posts 80, 103, and finally the one of yours (sorry had a couple of beers and can't remember the #) I quoted where you talk about the AF ratio being too lean.
Being too lean doesn't equate too harm. Again, I'm talking about performance.
But it comes back to the concept of whether or not the stock map is "too" lean or not (define the parameters that make up "too").
This is my opinion. Anything over 13.6 AFR is too lean for a Guzzi to run optimally. Your definition of optimal may differ. It's not 'harming' the bike or the environment.
I guess my position has been that if so many bikes run so well with the stock map that by definition it's not "too" lean.
But again I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong based on what Meinholf is saying could explain the away.
I.E. the map is not too lean UNLESS you happen to have the unfortunate luck to get a unit whereby the sum of the EFI parts are not equal to the usual whole, then the map isn't sufficient.
Is that the common explanation for my old Breva and Andy's (and some other's) V7's?.
If so great, thanks for your patience.
I agree with Meinolf, but would add to sum of the EFI the following as well: assembly, fuel, tune, environment, rider et al.
-
If anyone has ever wondered as too the horrors brought on by winter in the Northern hemisphere , the 5 plus pages of this thread should make it abundantly clear.
As for those in the Southern Hemisphere, one can only ponder what form of demented madness has taken hold. God speed to all men, may you make it back...
-
Kev:
I expect to hit 50K on my little small block next week. What a bike!
The hunting, surging, lean feeling I'm referring to is between 3,500 and 4,200 rpm on a low throttle opening. It happens when I'm just trying to creep along in town at 30, 40, 45 mph, riding like Dudley Dooright and trying to get max fuel economy.
It sometimes irritates me enough that I just ride more aggressively, with harder acceleration, more revs, higher speed just to avoid that feeling of "something's not quite right."
I think this is more noticeable on a colder engine. If I've ridden 50 miles and the engine is stinking hot, it's better, but still seems a bit off.
It's not just in my head or in the way I hold a throttle. All my other bikes are perfectly civilized in this low speed/lowish rev/low throttle environment.
I once had an '07 BMW 1200 GS that was like the small block in just not feeling quite right at low throttle openings. Maybe that's a clue.
-
If anyone has ever wondered as too the horrors brought on by winter in the Northern hemisphere , the 5 plus pages of this thread should make it abundantly clear.
As for those in the Southern Hemisphere, one can only ponder what form of demented madness has taken hold. God speed to all men, may you make it back...
It's the heat. It was 104 F in the shade hear yesterday.
-
Beetle... Thanks for the response. I have wondered for years if there are really just that much of a difference between production units or if it's the rider's perception (be it over-sensitivity or just in their heads).
I mean I had an early Oilhead that was supposed to "surge" and EFI Harleys that some owners claimed with surge, and now this V7.
I'm willing to say maybe it's me, but sure would like to find another explanation.
Meinholf has certainly offered one that's as good as any.
Smith, thanks also... Of course now you're adding to the argument that either there are production variances or I'm just too thick/dumb to feel the surging.
<shrugs>
-
I'm sensing a pattern ...
Dusty
-
Another thing is until you find out how good something can be? Well ignorance is bliss!
When I first got my 8V I rode it with the execrable GRS8V-01 map in it, it shuddered and hunted and was really a bit of a pig. I tried to get a piggyback system off some mob in New York who happily took my money and never sent me anything and then said they'd refunded me. They hadn't. Screw them. Then I drank the PCV/AT kool aid. that didn't work at all! The diagnostics wouldn't even talk to the bike! I was told it was because I was doing something wrong, (I wasn't!) but decided to take said POS back to the US and ask Todd to fit it to the 'Griso Pinko' I had out there. Thankfully, by the time I went the factory and come up with the 'Not for road use' 68S map which was so much better that I decided to eschew what I'd already become suspicious of as, at least in the hands of the person who'd sold it to me, a poor choice as I'd started seeing other bikes with this system all of which massively over-fuelled. Ugh!
I was really quite happy with the 68S until Mark came over and saw exactly how grotesquely over fuelled his bike was and he decided to do something about it. With Reader and Writer available he was able to start building maps, I had a go but I was crap at it! :grin: His maps in comparison were like a bolt from the blue. There have been many, MANY iterations now for the Griso and the first couple were huge leaps. Since then it has simply been fine tuning for different models of machine and aftermarket pipes but the endgame is that the 8V, especially in the Griso as that is what we have most experience with, is now a fantastic engine to use, fuel consumption is, in everyday riding, significantly better and the way the bike performs is completely linear and very strong from sub 2,000 all the way to redline. My plugs are great, there is no soot in my exhaust and I don't have to buy 'Special Boxes' or hack into my loom to achieve this near perfection. It can all be done with a laptop and a five minute upload!
Sure, if the bike isn't tuned properly it won't run optimally! Sorry, that is the same as any other vehicle whether fuel injected or still using those 'Other Things!', (In this place we do not use the 'C' word!). Its not the fault of the map or the engine management system.
As it is Mark is now working on the MUIG's *issues*, one of the commonest of which is the cold start stall and another is the 'Surging' or whatever at low throttle openings/engine speed. No, it doesn't seem to affect every bike. But for those that it does affect it IS a problem. So let him try and deal with it.
Pete
-
Hi Kev,
night has ended, so let's continue.
Does this chart show the effect with or without the use of a Cat-Con? And if without, how does that change the picture?
It looks to me like you would actually reduce CO2 and NOx, increase HC slightly and CO significantly, while also reducing MPG.
the chart is not specific to a combustion engine, the same pattern would be measured in an oven or a heater. Having the exhaust gas run through a catalytic converter in the exhaust reduces the amount of some gases, not all. I don't want to extend the thread into a detailed discussion about catalytic conversion, consult this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter for a starter.
Now if we accept that chart what conclusion would you draw from remapping so it runs closer to 13.0:1 much of the time (when it would have otherwise been in closed-loop and averaging closer to Stoich/14.7:1 or so)?
But I see where you go and conclude that less power means the motor is going to have turn more rpm for the same amount of work, and since this is a snapshot of combustion not accounting for the factor of time, that you are suggesting at 13.0:1 a motor may actually pollute less because of the time factor yes?
Is that a universal equivalency, or does it change with any given motor, with different ambient conditions, with different rpm/load?
I mean if it's that simple, why wouldn't the regulating bodies of the EU and US (EPA) allow a richer target mixture at the current test points?
my comments were in reply to questions of which AFR is best, both from a riding experience and pollution point of view, for a Guzzi engine. They are not designed for lean operation. Taking all factors into consideration you will get a better performing engine, a more enjoyable riding experience, less irritiations like cold start stumble and better economy if AFR is optimized, together with ignition, partly, but not always, at richer than factory values.
And just to complete the picture, AFR is but one of the influencers of performance, ridability and economy. Ignition timing goes hand in hand with AFR, but the effect is MUCH more difficult to measure (with the means at our disposal).
I studied mechanical engineering and wrote my thesis in 1985/86 at the research center of the German TÜV, the subject being the development of the ECE R40/47 standard, which was the mother of motorcycle specific pollution legislation. We had 20 motorcycle to measure and compare, a huge lab with gas and particle measuring equipment which took more than 2h every morning to warm up and calibrate, plus constant re-calibration. All of the measurements were done with the motorcycles on a dyno and the drivers (me and another student) following a detailed time/speed profile. Which was supposed to cover the majority of driving patterns. And that's how motorcycles and cars are still tested today.
(In the sense of full disclosure, I started working in the IT industry immediately after receiving my degree. And retired some months ago, that's why I have time to re-involve myself with this stuff. So, I'm really no more than a layman myself)
Legislation doesn't dictate AFR, it dictates pollution limits. And the methods to achieve this are selected by OEMs as they see fit and are capable of. BMW has hundreds of engineers working on motorcycle electronics and adapting the results of thousands of engineers working for the ECU manufacturers. Most likely Guzzi, in the 90's, had the single engineer they had call an acquaintance a Marelli and ask him, do you have a cheap ECU suitable for a V-twin. Which they had, for Ducati. And threw in a day or two of adapting it to the pecularities of a Guzzi engine. The result of which we are driving. And I don't see many improvements since then.
Cheers
Meinolf
-
From what I can see, Beetle, Mark et al are working to make good bikes better. That'll do me. I've no problem with mine, but anything can be improved upon with a little diligent fettling (yes, dear, even you).
-
SmithSwede
The problem you describe with your V7 (mid range hesitancy) is the same problem my bike had. So if your bike is the same as mine (2014 built V7 with 1TB) why not try the same solution as I did of disconnecting the lambdas at their electrical plugs, go for a ride, and report back?
If you follow the wires up from the sensors you will find each has a quick disconnect plug, one under each side panel, and they pull apart (there may be a locking piece you have to push, I cant remember).
Andy1
-
SmithSwede
The problem you describe with your V7 (mid range hesitancy) is the same problem my bike had. So if your bike is the same as mine (2014 built V7 with 1TB) why not try the same solution as I did of disconnecting the lambdas at their electrical plugs, go for a ride, and report back?
If you follow the wires up from the sensors you will find each has a quick disconnect plug, one under each side panel, and they pull apart (there may be a locking piece you have to push, I cant remember).
Andy1
If you are happy with that solution and the ECU doesn't throw up errors, then you should also remove the sensor(s) and plug the holes as they will no longer be heated. Over time they will be ruined.
If the sensor(s) are "switched off" but remain physically connected, they will continue to be heated.
Edit: you should probably also disconnect the battery for a few minutes to clear the auto learn memory.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Hi Xiratra (John),
You are correct about removing the lambdas long term - I fitted stainless bungs - see Post number 3 many pages above!
But simply disconnecting them and going for a ride gives a chace for someone to evaluate the modification very easily. No cost, and they can reverse it in a few minutes.
I had not considered the self-learning that the ECU might do - does our ECU actually have this facility?
And I have no experience of the MkII V7 which may be different to my V7 MkI
Andy1
-
Some people seem to say that their small block bike runs perfectly from new. Others have all sorts of problems and stumbles. It seems to me that one thing has not been addressed and that is fuel pump pressure. The pressure regulator employed in the fuel tank is not a NASA specced. item. I wonder what the manufacturing pressure spread is aloud and might this affect the overall tuning of the motor. Another possible variation is the calibration accuracy of the injectors Just saying.
On the problem of warmup, and the fact that the O2 sensors are not working at this stage, there is a mixture modifying map called the 'Engine Temperature Correction' map which I have modified with some remarkable success. Being in Oz, I have not had the opportunity to test under cold conditions yet. The temperature last week went to 44C (111F) but in previous times around 35C (95F) I had experienced embarrassing stumbles. I no longer have these.
My random thoughts
Cheers
Brian AU :cheesy:
-
OK, much thanks to both Meinholf and Beetle. You guys have convinced me there's no harm in trying one of Beetle's maps for the V7. I'll look into it come spring.
-
Kev,
Why not just try disconnecting the lamdas first?
Then try Beetle's remap solution (which I get the impression is still being worked on?)
And report back your findings
Andy1
-
Kev,
Why not just try disconnecting the lamdas first?
Then try Beetle's remap solution (which I get the impression is still being worked on?)
And report back your findings
Andy1
Yes but you can always wait for the next great thing and never do anything. The map I loaded runs so much better than stock and as I said, on my bike, better than the GT map.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Kev,
Why not just try disconnecting the lamdas first?
Then try Beetle's remap solution (which I get the impression is still being worked on?)
And report back your findings
Andy1
Because I prefer a more integrated solution. If the stock fueling can be improved upon without negative effects (efficiency/pollution etc.) then I'm willing to take a shot. I have no "need" for it however.
-
Hi Kev,
I am really not sure what you mean by 'a more integrated solution'?
Do whatever you are happy with, or make no changes at all. If you are happy with your bike, that is all that matters. But please do not say one method of adjusting the mixture is better than another without trying them both.
A little story.
Years ago I bought a new XT 350 Yamaha. I really liked the bike, used it on and off road, but always felt it could do with a bit more power - but that is not an unnatural thing. I sold it to my wife's cousin, and they felt it was well underpowered....fro m new there had been a restrictor in the inlet tract. Once removed the bike was transformed.
There may be a parallel here, and trying the simple solution of unplugging the lambdas may just improve your bike. You will never know unless you try!
AndyB
(A warning though - the XT was stolen shortly afterwards.....so if you do remove the lambdas make sure you lock the bike up well!)
-
In reference to lean burning - my son works for GM Holden
and they were deep into experimenting with lean burn.
He told me they had a set up with two injectors - one shot
the main charge which was too lean to ignite normally, the
second shot a small rich charge aimed at the Spark Plug to
start the burn and flamefront.
Not sure if it made it to production before GMH ran and hid
in a Bank Vault with their money or not.
Maurie.
-
OK, much thanks to both Meinholf and Beetle. You guys have convinced me there's no harm in trying one of Beetle's maps for the V7. I'll look into it come spring.
Why? I've always maintained that if a person is happy with their bike, don't change anything.
-
I had not considered the self-learning that the ECU might do - does our ECU actually have this facility?
Yes. When the bike leaves the factory, there are no trims (nothing autolearned) and the engine will run pretty much like yours does now. Over a period of time/miles, the ECU trims the closed loop are fuel delivery to meet emissions.
And I have no experience of the MkII V7 which may be different to my V7 MkI
Functionally the same.
-
Why? I've always maintained that if a person is happy with their bike, don't change anything.
I wouldn't mind a cold start fix.
And if we can increase efficiency/decrease emissions too then it would be win win, no?
-
Pete Roper brought up some good points about manufacturing and operating variances in the fuel pump. Another, much bigger issue when commenting on how a particular design runs where we all live and ride is the huge variability in fuel around the world.
I had the good fortune to ride a 12GS around the world. I bought it new in the US and it ran OK, but not super smooth. In Europe it ran great! Not so good in Africa. Back in Europe it ran great again. Then it started running poorly in Russia and burned up a set of plugs in Mongolia. Back in the US it again ran OK.
My V7II initially stumbled and surged when cold. After the 600 mile service it ran smoother. Now at 1800 miles, while it is not perfect, it runs with much less stumbling than the 12GS ever did in the US. Nonetheless, I might try a new map in search of the perfect running engine!
-
About that stumbling/surging/missing at around 4,000rpm on the V7s - both the V7C (now at 163,000km) and the single throttle bodied V7S (78,000km) have exhibited this from time to time. My FIRST point of call is the air filter (replace it with a new one) and the airbox - espec in the case of the V7S (soak up the oil & clean it out). I've found that that'll often fix it. Next check is the HT leads, caps & plugs. Do that BEFORE looking elsewhere - it's easy & cheap. Logically, the next step should be the fuel supply (fuel lines & pump). I don't know about anyone else, but I need reminding to have everything else working fine before playing with the ECU.
That being said, do note that the V7S with its MUI G3 is on Mark's third version map, and doing very nicely, thank you very much. Still a bit of a cold-starter, but nowhere near as bad as it was originally, and it handles bumper to bumper traffic in the scorching heat much better than it did. (It would handle it better still if I hadn't broken the fuel line's T junction when trying to remove the tank). The V7C is still on the original map - quite satisfactory - and it may even run a little better after balancing the throttle bodies & re-setting the TPS, so long as I don't muck it up too badly.
-
Cold start is easy fixed with changing the warm up map a bit. At least with the stelvio. It starts at 0 degree celcius and I can drive away without any hesitation.
-
I had my 2014 V7S in for some warranty work a couple of years back and asked the dealer to check for updates and install if available. He did so (at no charge), and whatever new factory map he put in pretty much solved my cold issues. It had always started instantly, but needed a 60-second or so warmup to be able to ride away without stalling or massive throttle/clutch action.
-
I had my 2014 V7S in for some warranty work a couple of years back and asked the dealer to check for updates and install if available. He did so (at no charge), and whatever new factory map he put in pretty much solved my cold issues. It had always started instantly, but needed a 60-second or so warmup to be able to ride away without stalling or massive throttle/clutch action.
I had the latest stock map on my 2014 and didn't have cold running issues but I'm in Florida. But it was 37 this morning when I left. It just wasn't as smooth as it was when I changed my stock pipes for Mistrals.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
About that stumbling/surging/missing at around 4,000rpm on the V7s - both the V7C (now at 163,000km) and the single throttle bodied V7S (78,000km) have exhibited this from time to time. My FIRST point of call is the air filter (replace it with a new one) and the airbox - espec in the case of the V7S (soak up the oil & clean it out). I've found that that'll often fix it. Next check is the HT leads, caps & plugs. Do that BEFORE looking elsewhere - it's easy & cheap. Logically, the next step should be the fuel supply (fuel lines & pump). I don't know about anyone else, but I need reminding to have everything else working fine before playing with the ECU.
That being said, do note that the V7S with its MUI G3 is on Mark's third version map, and doing very nicely, thank you very much. Still a bit of a cold-starter, but nowhere near as bad as it was originally, and it handles bumper to bumper traffic in the scorching heat much better than it did. (It would handle it better still if I hadn't broken the fuel line's T junction when trying to remove the tank). The V7C is still on the original map - quite satisfactory - and it may even run a little better after balancing the throttle bodies & re-setting the TPS, so long as I don't muck it up too badly.
Just a question... you have 163.000km on your V7?? :bow: :thumb:
-
Just a question... you have 163.000km on your V7?? :bow: :thumb:
+1. I was prob having issues with my caps/plugs before this. I would report the Beetle map is even smoother to me now after the change this past weekend.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
This is for folks whom already have one of my maps: Let me be 100% clear on this. The cold start 'issue' is for this who start-and-ride. Those who let the engine warm up for a minute, don't have the stalling/stumble problem. Correct?
-
This is for folks whom already have one of my maps: Let me be 100% clear on this. The cold start 'issue' is for this who start-and-ride. Those who let the engine warm up for a minute, don't have the stalling/stumble problem. Correct?
I start and ride (Florida) without stumbling since installing your map. Decel pop gone as well.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
This is for folks whom already have one of my maps: Let me be 100% clear on this. The cold start 'issue' is for this who start-and-ride. Those who let the engine warm up for a minute, don't have the stalling/stumble problem. Correct?
In my experience with the 'Racer' this was the case both with the factory map and the iteration of yours that is in there. Your explanation of what the shitty TPS does and how the ECU interprets it manes perfect sense as to why it happens.
Pete
-
If you wait for the engine to warm up before riding off in UK you can sometimes run out of petrol......
Andy1
-
Right. So if it is related to the TPS like I suspect, then it's unlikely I'll be able to fix it.
Bob, how many miles on yours?
-
Right. So if it is related to the TPS like I suspect, then it's unlikely I'll be able to fix it.
Bob, how many miles on yours?
[emoji19] 1,250
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
The TPS issue may yet affect you. Sorry.
:shocked:
-
So what is the TPS issue?
-
[emoji19] 1,250
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Crap. So is it posted on WG on what to do?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
This is for folks whom already have one of my maps: Let me be 100% clear on this. The cold start 'issue' is for this who start-and-ride. Those who let the engine warm up for a minute, don't have the stalling/stumble problem. Correct?
Correct for my 2013 V7 Stone with beetle map and GuzziTech aftermarket full exhaust (i.e. no lamda's at all). I'm very happy with my map and would be hesitant to change it out. The map I'm using is labeled V7-1TB-NoCat-C6C0.2016.09.27.bin
-
Crap. So is it posted on WG on what to do?
No, because I haven't figured the root cause and fix yet.
-
No, because I haven't figured the root cause and fix yet.
Ah. I thought the just go bad and need replacing. You mean you may potentially do something within a map to help correct.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Correct for my 2013 V7 Stone with beetle map and GuzziTech aftermarket full exhaust (i.e. no lamda's at all). I'm very happy with my map and would be hesitant to change it out. The map I'm using is labeled V7-1TB-NoCat-C6C0.2016.09.27.bin
No need to change. Current map iterations work just fine. A handful of bikes have the stall/stumble. The fix will be for them.
-
Ah. I thought the just go bad and need replacing. You mean you may potentially do something within a map to help correct.
Yes!
-
So what is the TPS issue?
The TPS rides on plastic cam which is set in the factory and is allegedly not adjustable in the field. The cam wears over time. In fact, the factory say not to do a TPS reset after 3000 miles/kilometres (I don't recall which) as it will adversely affect it. When we reflash a map we relearn the throttle which sets the closed throttle value back to 0.9/1.0 for V7, or 1.0/1.2 for V7II. As the cam wears we get an issue where the throttle angle can jump from say 1.8 to 12.4 as you roll it on. At least that is what I think is happening. So far my tests confirm as much. Anyway, when the engine is cold, as you open the throttle the ECU can't reconcile the sudden change in throttle angle with the correction tables based on current sensor input. Result? Stall or stumble. When it's hot, there is less fuel in the mixture, so it's not evident or obvious. The problem for me is striking a balance between cold/rich mixture and hot/lean mixture so as to allow easy starting and stumble free ride, whether the engine is hot or cold.
-
The TPS rides on plastic cam which is set in the factory and is allegedly not adjustable in the field. The cam wears over time. In fact, the factory say not to do a TPS reset after 3000 miles/kilometres (I don't recall which) as it will adversely affect it. When we reflash a map we relearn the throttle which sets the closed throttle value back to 0.9/1.0 for V7, or 1.0/1.2 for V7II. As the cam wears we get an issue where the throttle angle can jump from say 1.8 to 12.4 as you roll it on. At least that is what I think is happening. So far my tests confirm as much. Anyway, when the engine is cold, as you open the throttle the ECU can't reconcile the sudden change in throttle angle with the correction tables based on current sensor input. Result? Stall or stumble. When it's hot, there is less fuel in the mixture, so it's not evident or obvious. The problem for me is striking a balance between cold/rich mixture and hot/lean mixture so as to allow easy starting and stumble free ride, whether the engine is hot or cold.
Interesting.
Would it change anything in your theory if I tell you the mine has done it since the day I brought it home.
I.e. it hunts shortly after a cold start and will stall if you attempt to pull away in the first minute or two.
After that it's perfect the rest of the day unless I park it for hours. The rest of the day I can start it and likely ride off in seconds.
-
Not really. I was talking about bikes already remapped with lambda off.
-
I think it goes a bit deeper than the crappy plastic cam alone for that reason. Some machines do it from new, some don't. Some never seem to exhibit it, some get worse with time.
To me that would indicate a variable of some sort. It may just be something as simple a crappy manufacturing tolerances or some other form of hardware issue? Whatever the cause it is vexing. Not because it is really outside the patience of a normal owner, (In my experience, even in the dead of winter, as long as you don't touch the throttle it will get beyond the 'Problem' stage within a minute or at the maximum two, if just left to idle.) but simply because on a modern, fuel injected vehicle you should be able to just hit the button and ride!
If there is anybody in the south of the U.K. who has a particularly annoying example I'd love to see it. The conditions for observing it are close to ideal at the moment! It's bloody freezing and damp and as miserable a Tory party conference! After burying my aunt on Wednesday I've got about a week running around visiting friends and relatives. If I can see a *Really* crappy one it might give me some ideas to bounce around....
Pete
-
From brand new? Interesting.
-
Is it possible to lubricate the nylon cam?
Andy1
Peter - have a look at the Guzziriders UK forum - it has a small block section - it is a lot quieter than this forum but you may be able to find somone with a rough running V7 in Southern UK through it. I am sorry I am not in UK at the moment.
-
From brand new? Interesting.
Guess I wasn't clear, but that's what I was saying. I bought one of the first 1TB Stones available in the US (ordered it from FBF) and it's done it from day/mile #1.
Also interesting might be the fact that I actually think it's WORSE the hotter it is out. I.E. I think it stumbles/dies more during warm-up on an 80°F day than a 32°F day.
My pet theory was that the cold/dense air and cold start enrichment was actually better in those circumstances.
Humidity might play a role as well.
<shrugs>
-
I still have the "cold" start issue on my '14 Special, then it runs fine. Even happens after being parked for 1-1 1/2 hours, regardless of ambient temps (I have to warm it up after a breakfast/lunch stop). This is with the latest factory map.
I've also had some issues with IMMDIATELY restarting the bike after a long hard run. Turns over, but takes longer to fire. As if saying "we were on a roll, why did you stop"? Not sure what causes that...
-
I still have the "cold" start issue on my '14 Special, then it runs fine. Even happens after being parked for 1-1 1/2 hours, regardless of ambient temps (I have to warm it up after a breakfast/lunch stop). This is with the latest factory map.
I've also had some issues with IMMDIATELY restarting the bike after a long hard run. Turns over, but takes longer to fire. As if saying "we were on a roll, why did you stop"? Not sure what causes that...
Do you see any differences between your 2 different v7's?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Do you see any differences between your 2 different v7's?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You're thinking Jay - and he still has his 2 different 1TB V7s.... maybe he'll chime in, but I'm expecting the answer will be no (nothing significant).
-
You're thinking Jay - and he still has his 2 different 1TB V7s.... maybe he'll chime in, but I'm expecting the answer will be no (nothing significant).
Yup. Jay. Sorry about that.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Is it possible to lubricate the nylon cam?
Andy1
Peter - have a look at the Guzziriders UK forum - it has a small block section - it is a lot quieter than this forum but you may be able to find somone with a rough running V7 in Southern UK through it. I am sorry I am not in UK at the moment.
Use any petrochemical type lubricant and you'll be buggered. Nylon swells if these are used. It's not accessible anyway.
-
This is for folks whom already have one of my maps: Let me be 100% clear on this. The cold start 'issue' is for this who start-and-ride. Those who let the engine warm up for a minute, don't have the stalling/stumble problem. Correct?
That certainly was my experience before the factory map update at the dealer. Prior to that I would wheel the bike out, start it, grab my jacket and helmet and gloves, put all that on, back the bike down the driveway, then ride away. Just firing it up and riding was guaranteed to either induce a stall, or require lots of throttle/clutch action. After the map upgrade it was greatly improved, maybe just a put-on-helmet delay req'd on cold days ;-)
FWIW I live in Canada and riding temps can range from below freezing to 35C. Sometimes in the same month.
Edit: Mine had the cold start stumble problem from day one brand-new, less than 10 kilometers on the odo. I think it was at around 8,000 km when I had the dealer update the map, when it was in for some unrelated warranty work.
-
Well, that buggers that theory then. Next....
-
Beetle - nylon lubricants are available that will not swell the nylon - I am aware of the problem - silicon sprays are OK, and sprays specifically for lubricating nylon are available. But if the cam in unaccesible then no go.
Sorry if this is getting boring, but with the standard map and no lambdas fitted I have no warm up issues. I start the bike and ride off. Yes I treat it gently for the first few miles as I would any engine, but since the lambdas were removed there is now no hesitancy or stumble.
Interesting that Beetle's map disables the lambdas.
Andy1
-
Just a question... you have 163.000km on your V7?? :bow: :thumb:
Yes, 163,000 km on the 2010 V7 Classic, and still counting.
-
This is for folks whom already have one of my maps: Let me be 100% clear on this. The cold start 'issue' is for this who start-and-ride. Those who let the engine warm up for a minute, don't have the stalling/stumble problem. Correct?
Correct, Mark. The V7 Special starts ith a faster idle & a smell of fuel, quickly drops back to a steady idle (around 1350 rpm), and is usually fine after the gloves & helmet (even the fast Vozz) go on.
BTW this bike is now running again now that I've replaced the fuel line I broke while (clumsily) taking the tank off. Do take note that the metal the manifolds are made of is close to butter - it is all too easy to cross thread the injector bolt hole, even by hand.
-
Cam3512 and others:
Good point---I had forgotten that problem. If my 13 Stone is plenty hot, and I stop for gas and then try to re-start, it can take a while. So maybe that's another map issue that can be fixed.
Under these conditions, I've gotten into the habit of opening the throttle about half way while cranking it, and then closing it down as it cranks. I could be totally wrong, but I think it's too rich under these condition, and opening the throttle plates to let in some air seems to help a lot.
-
My cold start experience is exactly the same as Sturgeon's, including the improvement with the newer factory map, though my ridng weather is more 0-40 C.
It would be nice to be able to take off straight away, especially leaving work, but it's not an appliance to me so a bit of time consuming ritual around helmet and gloves while it warms up isn't a bad thing
-
Just a question... you have 163.000km on your V7?? :bow: :thumb:
it sounds impressive, but it's only just over 100,000 miles.
-
Oh believe me, if you knew where Mal rides his bikes? It's impressive! :grin:
-
Yes, 163,000 km on the 2010 V7 Classic, and still counting.
I wonder what is maximum on V7 dash... 199.999? :evil:
-
For those interested, this is a video of the TPS issue.
https://youtu.be/R1HhLsGaU0s
-
My 2013 V7 1TB had the same cold start issues as the others report when it was in stock condition. I could not ride away until the bike had run for what seemed like 2 minutes. One time I was on a ride with another V7 (same 2013 model year, his was a special mine a stone) and we stopped for lunch. When we got back on the bikes he took off right away and mine stumbled and stalled until it warmed up again. The other rider never mentioned any issue with cold start riding.
-
My 2016 V7ii with unrestricted mufflers (no cats - but not too loud) had cold start issues, and would actually backfire a bit during warm up in cool conditions. Needed at least 2 minutes before you could ride away. I also had to wait if I stopped for lunch and re-started.
It now has the GT map (lambdas plugged in), and I start and ride it away. Yes, a slight decrease in fuel economy. For what it's worth...
-
Anything will work when cold if you just drown it in fuel.
-
I wonder what is maximum on V7 dash... 199.999? :evil:
That's the rumour - I guess I'll find out sometime in the next year.
-
For those interested, this is a video of the TPS issue.
https://youtu.be/R1HhLsGaU0s
Mark, during that, you see ignition or injection time change too?
-
Paul, that was with engine off. I will be trying it today with the engine running.
-
Well, with the engine running, the TPS jumps to 8.40 (instead of 12.40). Advance and injection time does change.
-
can't be play in the mechanics?
-
I don't believe so. I got Clancy to test his, it does something similar. Bernd tested his as well. Same. It looks to have some sort of incremental encoder for the TPS. Bernd described it as 'ugly'. I agree.