Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: beetle on January 29, 2017, 01:12:32 AM
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For those who have the cold start/stumble issue with your 1TB V7, the cause is the ECU. The TPS is built into the MIU G3 and is not serviceable. It uses an analogue incremental encoder for the TPS, and in the case of the MIU G3, there is a gap or 'jump' in the TPS values when opening the throttle. Typically, it will jump from 1.8 to ~12.4 degrees when the engine is not running. That's approx 2% to 15% throttle. When the engine is running, the jump is reduced to around 1.8 to ~8.4 degrees (2% to 10% throttle). I'm not sure what the cause is, but I suspect a poor choice of ADC, as the the output voltage from the encoder is linear.
When the engine is cold (<40C) the engine will stall, as when you blip the throttle, it will take a big gulp of air, but there may not be enough fuel for the cold engine, so it's stalls. As the engine warms up, the amount of fuel required is reduced, so the affect is negligible. I believe the affect is exacerbated with aftermarket mufflers, as the extra flow requires even more fuel.
I believe Marelli are aware of this, and their workaround is to squirt more fuel in that problem area when the engine is cold. Have a look at the fuel-engine-temperature correction table for the stock V7-II.
(https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/18/91/78/64/img_0916.jpg)
Notice the workaround? It's a kludge.
OK, I'm open to sledging, haters, know-it-alls and the fine gentlefolk to comment, harangue or otherwise provide comment.
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As I've said before with regard to other fueling options, anything will run if you throw lots of fuel at it. It just won't run very well, will cause more pollution and will use an excessive amount of a precious and finite natural resource. In this case it only does it until it's out of the critical warm up period so it doesn't have time to foul plugs and stuff but it's still a sucky way of going about things. Must be cheap for them though..... :rolleyes:
Pete
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Well that just sux 👎
Dusty
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My 2013 special is not friendly when cold. I've been pondering getting a beetle map for it.
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I've eliminated it from the stock V7 (Pete's Racer) and am now tweaking the map. Craig (Clancy on the forum) is testing the fix on a stock V7-II. There will be a few updates to that map before I make it available, so I'd suggest waiting until I've sorted both V7 I &vII.
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Let me know if I can help. We still have winter here, but in March this snow should go away.
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Thanks to Beetle, Pete, and Clancy and others for being out front on this matter and putting forth expertice and experimentation to get our machines running better. It's a shame the OEM's can't, won't, do the right thing and do things right from the beginning. (How much more effort and cost can it take to write a proper computer program vs. accepting an improper program?) I am waiting to see the fruits of your efforts, then I'll jump in, contributing to the support of your efforts. Well done, Mates!
Steve.
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Well, there it is. This issue cost Guzzi a sale, when I took out a new V7 in 2015. I found the bad fueling totally unacceptable on the bike I tested.
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Hi Beetle, can you explain that Table please? (Nice and simply for me!)
Not sure what the top axis is, and I guess the vertical axis is temperature - ambient? airbox? Guess in F but goes down very cold?
Thanks
Andy1
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Horizontal is TPS. Vertical is engine temperature in degrees Celsius. Each cell is a correction value applied depending on measured engine temp versus throttle position. The ECU interpolates the values, so the correction won't be the exact value of the cell.
Notice the values above idle at 60C and warmer are all the same? That means that as the engine reaches max operating temp, the fuel is not corrected properly for best running. I doubt you'd ever see a V7 engine hit 125C, but it's still not right.
The other thing that bugs me is the main fuel maps. Have a look at the right cylinder map. Can you see what's wrong here?
(https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/18/91/78/64/img_0919.jpg)
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So the first table shows that there is no compensation of the a/f ratio once the engine temp (how is engine temp defined?) is over 60C. Not sure what this has got to do with cold running issues? Sorry, not trying to start a fight, just trying to understand the figures.
To me the table says that the mixture is enrichened at lower temperatures (good). I guess that the enrichment is not enough to stop the cold stumble.
Table 2. Sorry, I need to know what the figures in the boxes are. Vertical axis is RPM, Horizontal is TPS.
The error is perhaps that the figures peak mid rpm range at larger TPS values, rather than peaking at min rpm as at lower TPS values....which I suspect gives a rich mixture mid-range????
Andy1
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How can the map run to 8250rpm when the rev linmiter cuts in around 7250?
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I've had the V7-II out 3 times with the latest map.
That's 3 cold starts, although 'cold' at the moment is in the low 20's*C air temp....
(Yesterday I did 300k's with air temps over 35*C - a little sweaty :rolleyes:)
I'll be commuting on the bike all week, so will have a solid impression of cold starts after that.
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So the first table shows that there is no compensation of the a/f ratio once the engine temp (how is engine temp defined?) is over 60C.
Not exactly. There are other correction tables, the MAP correction being the major one. The fuel-engine-temp table has a big influence, however. This means that at cruise, as the engine gets hotter the AFR will stay constant, even though it should be leaning out slightly as the temp rises.
The engine temp is measured directly by a sensor in the right cylinder.
Not sure what this has got to do with cold running issues?
Absolutely nothing. It's just another confounding thing about this map.
To me the table says that the mixture is enrichened at lower temperatures (good). I guess that the enrichment is not enough to stop the cold stumble.
The TPS issue is the problem. They've used a kludge to get around it instead of addressing it.
Table 2. Sorry, I need to know what the figures in the boxes are. Vertical axis is RPM, Horizontal is TPS.
The error is perhaps that the figures peak mid rpm range at larger TPS values, rather than peaking at min rpm as at lower TPS values....which I suspect gives a rich mixture mid-range????
The values are injection pulse-width times in microseconds. The richer values midrange are due to poor VE at those breakpoints.
Have a look at the values at 4000 and above in the 45-65 TPS range. See how the same value is used on multiple cells? That's bad.
Ignore everything above 7250 for now. It's a recycled software. They just couldn't be arsed fixing that small thing. :rolleyes:
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Beetle,
This is fascinating stuff - I'm learning a ton. Thank you.
It's is all new to me so have a few questions if you have the time.
"The TPS issue is the problem. They've used a kludge to get around it instead of addressing it." The kluge is the extra fuel to get the engine to run smoothly when the TPS jumps from 2% to 10%?
"The richer values midrange are due to poor VE at those breakpoints." VE? Volumetric Efficiency? Would this be due to cam timing or profile?
"Have a look at the values at 4000 and above in the 45-65 TPS range. See how the same value is used on multiple cells? That's bad."
Is that because the same value 6113 would be rich at 6500 rpm and lean at 7250 rpm?
Thanks,
Shawn
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"The TPS issue is the problem. They've used a kludge to get around it instead of addressing it." The kluge is the extra fuel to get the engine to run smoothly when the TPS jumps from 2% to 10%?
Correct.
"The richer values midrange are due to poor VE at those breakpoints." VE? Volumetric Efficiency? Would this be due to cam timing or profile?
Primarily the valve size and cam timing/profile, but port shape and size air/exhaust speed affect VE.
"Have a look at the values at 4000 and above in the 45-65 TPS range. See how the same value is used on multiple cells? That's bad."
Is that because the same value 6113 would be rich at 6500 rpm and lean at 7250 rpm?
Yes!
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Not trying to be a wise guy. I just let my bike warm up for a few moments and ride. What am I missing?
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You're not missing anything. When I suggest that the response isn't always positive. :laugh:
Now, if you can convince every one of those impatient owners to wait 2 minutes, problem solved. :thumb:
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You're not missing anything. When I suggest that the response isn't always positive. :laugh:
Now, if you can convince every one of those impatient owners to wait 2 minutes, problem solved. :thumb:
Patience... 10 years and 60,000 miles of cold starts on Suzuki and Yamaha motorcycle engines not needing 2 minutes of warm up time is my problem. And cold for me means as low as the upper 20F range.
Really, warm up time isn't a problem. Warm up time on a computer controlled, fuel injected engine a decade and a half into the twenty-first-freakin'-century is the problem. My first car was a late 70's fuel injected Audi. Robert Bosch injection permitted me to turn the key and go. I'm spoiled. Having to wait for a modern motorcycle to warm up a couple minutes can be tiresome. I'll be awaiting the results of your fellows from down under.
Steve.
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You're 100% correct, Steve. You should be able to start & ride.
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That's the thing that pisses me off. Sure you can start the bike and give it a couple of minutes BUT YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO! It's 2017 for heavens sakes! Would you put up with that from your car? Or your washing machine? GAKK!
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I have posted this in another thread but since switching to Beetle's map my bike as been smooth as silk. Start and go. No hesitation, no gas smell, just runs great. My bike is also quieter/smoother without removing the nice rumble from my exhaust. That is important to me especially living in a community building with other condo owners. Thx again Beetle for your efforts.
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Yup it's the principal.
Well that and a gravel driveway and short EU side stand that makes me not want to run it unless I'm sitting on it. And if I'm sitting on it I get impatient to go.
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Got it.
thank you.
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It will be interesting to see if they fixed it with the V7III.
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Yup it's the principal.
Well, actually, it's the principle, unless you're referring to either your mortgage loan or Mrs. Jones at PS 201. :cheesy:
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Thanks you guys for taking the time to investigate this stuff AND take the time to explain it to the rest of us!
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First, thanks Beetle for the post. I'll be following this thread and your progress with the maps, I may want one for an older single throttle body model. Regarding the VE comments, I think the whole purpose of the new engine head design in the V7III is to improve the VE in order to maintain performance while meeting the new Euro regulations. The map for the new engine should be interesting.
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Well, actually, it's the principle, unless you're referring to either your mortgage loan or Mrs. Jones at PS 201. :cheesy:
Auto correct is my enema! [emoji23]
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Beetle - Thanks for the explanation of what the table means.
You say there are other correction tables - what are those? Just trying to understand the beast
Cheers
Andy1
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It will be interesting to see if they fixed it with the V7III.
Isn't the V7III supposed to have piston and head configurations similar to that of the V9? If so, then I'd think the ECU map would be quite a bit different and may be similar to the V9 map. The V9 doesn't display the same cold blooded tendencies that the V7 does.
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Beetle - Thanks for the explanation of what the table means.
You say there are other correction tables - what are those? Just trying to understand the beast
Major correction tables (other than fuel-engine-temp):
Warm up. Engine temp versus time. I'm not sure whether 'time' is run-time or engine revolutions.
(https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/18/91/78/64/img_0920.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/18917864/511)
Pressure-Air-Temperature. Ambient air pressure versus intake air temp.
(https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/18/91/78/64/img_0921.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/18917864/512)
Intake pressure. Intake mass air pressure versus intake air temperature.
(https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/18/91/78/64/img_0922.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/18917864/513)
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Ok got it now.
Going to convert my V7 to c***s.
Andy1
Add in the variables of the bike (OE components plus whatever the owner has done to it) and you have a LOT of parameters to play with.
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Ok got it now.
Going to convert my V7 to c***s.
Andy1
Add in the variables of the bike (OE components plus whatever the owner has done to it) and you have a LOT of parameters to play with.
And that's why a booster plug won't solve anything.
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What is a Booster Plug?
Andy1
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It's one of any number of shitty 'Plug in' cures for 'What ails you' offered that interfere with the signal from various sensors to 'Trick' the ECU into 'Running Rich'. As you can see by the above thread there are a whole load of cascading results that will occur if you mess with one thing without thinking about how the ECU interpolates the input.
Everybody wants a 'Magic Bullet'. There is no such thing. The only way to work out 'How Stuff Works' without access to the WM info is experimentation, observation, confirmation and peer review. Whoops! Might sound a bit like 'Science'!
Pete
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Sorry to rain on your parade beetle, but that engine temperature was the one I sent you. You did, at first believe that my solution was not viable and said so. I don't have any problem with that as I want these bikes to run right, however I would like some acknowledgment for my contribution.
Brian
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Not trying to be a wise guy. I just let my bike warm up for a few moments and ride. What am I missing?
I've got to admit I start it and let it idle while I put on earplugs, helmet, gloves, etc. Bike isn't warm yet but it runs fine.
But....I recall a famous bank robber in Israel who regularly used a Breva 750. He would need quicker starts.
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I've got to admit I start it and let it idle while I put on earplugs, helmet, gloves, etc. Bike isn't warm yet but it runs fine.
The 1TB and 2TB are such completely different animals in the sense it's not funny.
The 2TB will at least keep running if you keep the revs up. The 1TB can be so sensitive it stalls if you even put it in gear.
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The two issues people seem to (sometimes) have with the 1TB bikes is poor pick up when cold and mid-range surging.
Do the tables give any clues about the mid-range surging, say 3500 - 4000rpm, and if so, how could the tables be modified?
Andy1
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Sorry to rain on your parade beetle, but that engine temperature was the one I sent you. You did, at first believe that my solution was not viable and said so. I don't have any problem with that as I want these bikes to run right, however I would like some acknowledgment for my contribution.
Brian
What contribution? You sent me a modified version of my map with a new warm-up table. A modification that doesn't address the real issue. Then you posted here that modifying the fuel-engine-temp correction table just needed a few values change to '1' so that it didn't 'increase fuel consumption ' (your words), which is naive. Then proceeded to say the warm-up table doesn't affect anything because the warm-up time legend consists of zeroes. So, your 'contribution' has simply been to confuse those V7 owners who believed what you posted here. You don't understand the way the map works. Furthermore, you say you let the bike idle while you put your gear on and open the gate. You haven't really 'fixed' your bike, you just let it warm up.
Contribution? Please! Put your ego away. You've contributed nothing.
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The two issues people seem to (sometimes) have with the 1TB bikes is poor pick up when cold and mid-range surging.
Do the tables give any clues about the mid-range surging, say 3500 - 4000rpm, and if so, how could the tables be modified?
Andy1
The surging is due to the lambda leaning out the midrange. The 'trim' table is in RAM and modified by the ECU from lambda signal.
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The 1TB and 2TB are such completely different animals in the sense it's not funny.
The 2TB will at least keep running if you keep the revs up. The 1TB can be so sensitive it stalls if you even put it in gear.
What?! And this is progress?
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What?! And this is progress?
It's one small tiny piece of the changes, maybe THE only negative
This entire thread is basically about it and it basically disappears after a few minutes when the combustion chambers warm up.
So yes, even with this small misstep there's quite a net improvement.
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No beetle, that was early on in winter.
I didn't send you a modified map but sent you a spreadsheet of my version of the fuel engine tempcorrection table which happens to be the same as you quoted at the beginning of this thread.
I have it on my V7II along with your map and am very satisfied with it but I have yet to see what it does in winter.
I take note of your assertion that the fueling should be leaned at higher engine temps as I wondered why the original table was running at 0.98 at the higher engine temps, so I may try a further version.
Brian
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I didn't send you a modified map but sent you a spreadsheet of my version of the fuel engine tempcorrection table which happens to be the same as you quoted at the beginning of this thread.
Er, no. That correction table at the beginning of the thread is from a stock V7-II map.
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My apologies beetle.
I looked at the spreadsheet I sent you on 9th November and fin it is not the same at all as the one you quoted at the start of this thread.
I regularly test my table by taking off pretty much as soon as the motor is started and have only experienced one brief hiccup, however, this has not been tested in winter yet.
Today is forecast to be 42C or 107.6F and I had a bad hiccup at temperatures near this after the bike sitting in the sun for 1 hour.
This is what prompted me to investigate something other than the fuel warm-up table.
Looking at the warm-up time legend table, the left-hand column is all zeroes. All other legend tables have numbers from 1 to the number of steps in the table.
This led me to believe that the warm-up table is not used in practice, and so I searched for an alternative which seemed to be the fuel-engine temp correction table.
This appears to be true as the results are very good (although not tested in winter yet).
Brian :embarrassed:
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The warm-up table may not be time based. It's possible that engine revolutions are used.
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(https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/18/91/78/64/img_0919.jpg)
Education please Beetle
The vertical scale looks roughly linear but the horizontal scale looks close to an exponential scale
Is that a function of what the engine needs or is it just that some of the columns from the map are hidden??
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Nothing hidden, has to do with how a TB works. In the first degrees of opening there is much more difference in actual airflow. The difference in first 10% is much more then difference between 30 and 40% opening.
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Nothing hidden. The TPS scale (butterfly angle) is more or less exponential. Air intake is not linear.
A rough graph.
(https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/18/91/78/64/img_0924.jpg)
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I've eliminated it from the stock V7 (Pete's Racer) and am now tweaking the map. Craig (Clancy on the forum) is testing the fix on a stock V7-II. There will be a few updates to that map before I make it available, so I'd suggest waiting until I've sorted both V7 I &vII.
Beetle, are you working on new version of 4299 or 5C29? Should we expect even further perfection of those?
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4299
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4299
:thumb:
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Cheers Paul/Beetle - I understand that - which is nice :wink:
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I think the old adage "Making mechanics out of riders for..." needs to be revised to better reflect modern technology.
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Hi Mark,
I agree, the values, both x-axis and cells, corrrespond to the ones from the 15M, which are known to be number of revolutions.
Warm up. Engine temp versus time. I'm not sure whether 'time' is run-time or engine revolutions.
(https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/18/91/78/64/img_0920.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/18917864/511)
Neither air pressure nor air temperature trim values are following the gas equation. Easily corrected (if these are the only tables for temp/pressure correction in the BIN) and very helpful when data logging.
Pressure-Air-Temperature. Ambient air pressure versus intake air temp.
(https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/18/91/78/64/img_0921.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/18917864/512)
Cheers
Meinolf
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I've been following this thread with great interest and big thanks to you people doing the hard work and shearing it with us. Right from brand new my V7 11 had the small throttle/ low rev hesitation, I put up with it until the 1st service and when it was no better I got a Finebauforge and found a worth while improvement. Over the next 10,000 miles the bike got better and better, that was until 2 weeks ago when after about 15 miles I stopped for a few mins and although the bike started up ok it would not respond to throttle, I limped along for a few hundred yards and all seemed ok until I needed to stop again and the same thing happened. I get the feeling that the Finebau and the lambd only has any effect at small throttle low revs so I removed the Finebau to see if that had gone faulty. The bike started and ran well for about 12 miles then lost throttle response I struggled to keep up with the traffic, Less than about half throttle the bike would slow down until asked for more than half throttle when the bike would snatch the transmission and accelerate hard. I pulled over and in desperation uncoupled the lambd cables, since then the bike has run the best ever it is smoother less harsh from closed throttle to open throttle. Yesterday I did about 100 miles it was a cold day and the bike ran really well. All this could just a blip to the good or bad or just coincidence I'm touching wood while writing this, I did give the bike a good talking too, told it to sort it's self out or it would be in part exchange for a Triumph street twin.
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Oldlegs - I have said it frequently on this forum.... removing the lambdas worked well for my bike. It may be a crude, simplistic method, but I am happy with how my bike now runs. Glad somone else is also using the same method.
Still interested in Beetle's more 'scientific' approach, so this is a useful thread
Andy1
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Andy1 ,did you remove the lambda from the exhaust pipe? If so can you tell me what size plug thread I would need to fill the hole.
Thanks Steve.
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I hate those 'black box' things. Ask Roper about the Stelvio engine that was destroyed by a pair of FatDucs.
Disconnecting the lambda will work for n number of bikes, but what about those fitted with aftermarket pipes? Especially the more esoteric two-into-one units? The Pipemasters horrors? The Agostini user who want to leave the dB killers out? That's why I do this.
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Hi Beetle,
I totally agree with what you have said - but your remap was not available last May! I am sure that your solution will be better, it must be as it will more accurately modify the A/F ratio, and like you say, you will have versions for engines with other mods - but at the moment on my bike with Mistrals (dB killers in place) it works (and was OK when checked on a dyno).
It would be interesting comparing my bikes set up (standard map with lambdas removed) against your reworked map - and seeing if they are similar.
Steve - The stainless bungs are M18 x 1.5 and came with copper washers. Got them from UK ebay. About £9 / pair I think.
Andy1
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I am looking for a volunteer in the northern hemisphere with a V7II. You must have stock bike with factory exhaust. You must be somewhere where it's cold but not too cold to ride. I need the 'start and ride' user who has had the cold start or stumble problem. Must be willing to provide feedback and ride in temperatures around 10C/50F. Must have GuzziDiag and cables.
Any takers? :evil:
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I am looking for a volunteer in the northern hemisphere with a V7II. You must have stock bike with factory exhaust. You must be somewhere where it's cold but not too cold to ride. I need the 'start and ride' user who has had the cold start or stumble problem. Must be willing to provide feedback and ride in temperatures around 10C/50F. Must have GuzziDiag and cables.
Any takers? :evil:
That could be me. I meet all the criteria. My V7II Stone was one of the first ones imported to the US (I received it on 5/10/15), and it has software version 4533V740 installed. This one came before the notoriously evil 4533V795 and the somewhat improved 4533V796. I'm generally happy with 4533V740, but I'm always open to possible improvements. I'm technically conversant enough to have found the correct GuzziDiag software cables and gotten them to work for reading what's in there, but I haven't tried to modify anything. I might be disqualified for the "where it's cold but not too cold to ride" issue. It's too cold to ride today, but I rode last Wednesday when the temp got up to 53F. Sam
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Been riding in under 20F around here with a real feel of 5F and the bike did fine, but only if I let it warm up for a good few minutes while I check the tires and gear up.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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That could be me. I meet all the criteria.
You wrote that I sell useless snake oil ECU remedies. Thank you for your kind offer, but I'll decline.
Possibly because you've been too busy selling useless snake oil ECU remedies to unsuspecting folks here.
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Been riding in under 20F around here with a real feel of 5F and the bike did fine, but only if I let it warm up for a good few minutes while I check the tires and gear up.
Got GuzziDiag? Are you willing to try a 'start and ride' test?
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You wrote that I sell useless snake oil ECU remedies. Thank you for your kind offer, but I'll decline.
I think you've just confirmed my suspicions. Good luck.
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I think you've just confirmed my suspicions. Good luck.
I doubt it.
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Got GuzziDiag? Are you willing to try a 'start and ride' test?
Problem is i'm with the '14 V7 and have Todd's tool and map. Don't have GuzziDiag either.
I've notified Todd about problems in extreme cold and he has sent me another map. I just haven't got a chance to try it out yet. Just let it sit for a couple minutes and I'm fine.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Thanks.
Anybody else?
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Thanks.
Anybody else?
Not yet. Still below freezing :(
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I think you've just confirmed my suspicions. Good luck.
WTF? You want to get miffed because an old hand who's
proven he knows what he's talking about doesn't want to
waste his time with someone who openly calls him a
Snake Oil Salesman?
The only "suspicions" you prove like that are about yourself.
Maurie.
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My two snakes (2000 Bassa & Jackal) are both very happy with Beetle's oil.
Me, too.
Rich A
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Mark, how is it going with the new map? I saw in the GuzziDiag thread that you are busy on it. Just to let you know... Our weather has got warmer and sunnier (thank God!), so I am available for any help/testing.
:bike-037:
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The part with the midrange surging I understand. This would be annoying. Thankfully my 2013 V7 Stone shows this not in the least and never did. In fact it´s sweet point is about 4200/min. The part with the cold-bloodedness I do not get. We are talking about an engine construction that is at least 40 years old. An air-cooled Italian engine that started with 350 ccm and now has 750. Even if my bike would not show the same character when it is cold as the other stb´s I would let it warm up before I start to ride. Simply to prolong its life. So it don´t bothers me. I could have bought a Honda. But I did buy the old-fashioned Guzzi instead - even it is comparatively weak and has (neglectable in my opinion) items.
And yes, I will keep the original LaFranconis and the Lambda probes.
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OK, I now have a map that allows the stock V7 to 'start & ride' from cold. I need a volunteer with a V7 with factory exhausts to test the map. Not a V7-II, not a V7 classic. The 5 speed single throttle body V7.
Any takers?
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^^Jump on this, folks!
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OK, I now have a map that allows the stock V7 to 'start & ride' from cold. I need a volunteer with a V7 with factory exhausts to test the map. Not a V7-II, not a V7 classic. The 5 speed single throttle body V7.
Any takers?
Sure, I'm in. 2014 V7S, no mods.
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I think you've just confirmed my suspicions. Good luck.
Not sure how that confirms anything. But the total transformation of my V7II as a result of a beetle map certainly confirms for me that his oil is NOT of the snake variety. I would have gladly paid many times the asking price for what beetle is selling, and on top of that, his personal service after the sale (helping get it installed correctly) was exemplary.
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Our morning temperatures are around 55*F/13*Celcius, so maybe not the best test of start from "cold", but I am happy to help.
Currently running the Beetlemap on my stock '17 v7 Special and am 100% happy with it.
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Sure, I'm in. 2014 V7S, no mods.
Excellent. Got GuzziDiag and cables?
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Our morning temperatures are around 55*F/13*Celcius, so maybe not the best test of start from "cold", but I am happy to help.
Currently running the Beetlemap on my stock '17 v7 Special and am 100% happy with it.
You would have got the update anyway, after it's been tested. I'll send it to you for testing.
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Excellent. Got GuzziDiag and cables?
Yep, purchased cables and downloaded GD over the winter, installed, half tested. "Half" as in, connected cables to laptop, was able to see a port appear in GD. At the time it was sub-freezing in the garage, so I have yet to connect to the bike, but I don't foresee any problems with that part. After 40+ years as an IT guy, if I have problems the uni will probably revoke my pension and rip the epaulets off my shirt :laugh:
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I've been using Mark's new 1TB map for the past week, weather permitting. When it's not raining, the temps have ranged from 5-15C. My V7S when new was terrible for cold starts. About a year in, I had it in to the dealer for some warranty work and asked him to update to the latest factory map. That was a bit of an improvement, but not perfect by any means. I hadn't had this bike out yet after a few months of winter, so I went for one ride on the OEM map, just to refresh my memory. Then updated to the new map ...
Very noticeable improvement, much smoother idle, no decel popping that I could detect (I deliberately went without earplugs). Smooth linear acceleration right to the top, both at half-ish throttle and wide-open, in all gears. Well, not to the rev limiter in 5th, too many radar traps around here at this time of year and a very strict 'stunting' law with nasty penalties for 50 km/h above the posted limit. But I ran it up to 120 effortlessly. Virtually no surging (see below) at almost any speed. The cold start problem was gone. My only issues were what I thought was a very slight smell of unburnt fuel at a couple of the cold starts, and some surging in 1st gear at very slow speeds when cold (my house is two doors from a stop sign so I don't get out of 1st until after I've stopped and turned the corner). I reported those to Mark and had a tweaked version to try in a couple of hours. No more surging at any speed in any temperature, and I'm 99% sure the unburnt fuel smell is gone. Either that or I've suffered brain damage from sniffing exhaust fumes too many times :laugh: :laugh:
I'm a very happy rider, Thanks, Mark :thumb: :thumb:
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I've been using Mark's new 1TB map for the past week, weather permitting. When it's not raining, the temps have ranged from 5-15C. My V7S when new was terrible for cold starts. About a year in, I had it in to the dealer for some warranty work and asked him to update to the latest factory map. That was a bit of an improvement, but not perfect by any means. I hadn't had this bike out yet after a few months of winter, so I went for one ride on the OEM map, just to refresh my memory. Then updated to the new map ...
Very noticeable improvement, much smoother idle, no decel popping that I could detect (I deliberately went without earplugs). Smooth linear acceleration right to the top, both at half-ish throttle and wide-open, in all gears. Well, not to the rev limiter in 5th, too many radar traps around here at this time of year and a very strict 'stunting' law with nasty penalties for 50 km/h above the posted limit. But I ran it up to 120 effortlessly. Virtually no surging (see below) at almost any speed. The cold start problem was gone. My only issues were what I thought was a very slight smell of unburnt fuel at a couple of the cold starts, and some surging in 1st gear at very slow speeds when cold (my house is two doors from a stop sign so I don't get out of 1st until after I've stopped and turned the corner). I reported those to Mark and had a tweaked version to try in a couple of hours. No more surging at any speed in any temperature, and I'm 99% sure the unburnt fuel smell is gone. Either that or I've suffered brain damage from sniffing exhaust fumes too many times :laugh: :laugh:
I'm a very happy rider, Thanks, Mark :thumb: :thumb:
Ive got a '13 V7S and would be willing to pickup cables if you are interested in another tester. Im in Vancouver and i am currently riding days at about 8C in the morning. I start and ride and stall all the time hah
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You should get the cables and Guzzidiag anyway. Do that and PM me.
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Been following this thread a while...looks like it might explain some of my choppy throttle situation.
I have a 2015 V7 and idle always seems to want to jump around when starting cold for a bit. After maybe a min or so, it stabilizes around 1400 RPM.
When riding cold and restart after the bike has been sitting a while, the throttle can be choppy & jerky.
Especially @ lower speed @ 1st gear regardless what temperature the engine is at.
Also, the blipping the throttle can be slow to respond at times...quite annoying if you ask me.
well, did my first service but dealer "forgot" to check if there is a new the ECU map or not as my bike might missed the boat of the updates earlier.
Gonna bring her back when it STOPS RAINING and hopefully my choppy throttle stops if there is any updates.
If not, I will be contacting at least one of ya for flashing her myself lol...
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The V7 1TB No-cat exhaust map is done. I need a volunteer to test it for me. It works well on Pete's Racer. I need someone with GuzziDiag who is willing to provide feedback. Must be a 5 speed 1 TB bike with aftermarket exhaust with the dB killers in.
Any takers?
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I'd be happy to lend a hand to the project, even tho' my critical faculties are not what anyone would call razor sharp and I'll be lending the Special to cousin Mal again, and his in relation to guzzis seem to be even less - yes, he's back. And we could probably drum up some more test mules.
Mal
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Isn't the Special a II? I was actually thinking I might ask if you wanted to lend me the Special for the 'cause'. :grin:
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Specials have been out since 2012, no mater 2TB or single. Whatever they were making then. I don't keep track.I thought the 1st ones were dual TB's.
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I tested your first iteration of this on my 2014 V7 Special. It's not a V7 II. (And I'm still happy)
If you want to send me some nice Mistrals or the like, I'd be happy to test the no-cat version too :evil:
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Isn't the Special a II? I was actually thinking I might ask if you wanted to lend me the Special for the 'cause'. :grin:
No, it's a 2014 1TB. One of the first things Pete said to me when I called in on the way back from collecting it in Tassie was that I was going to be sorry it didn't have the six speed box (the II's were just out & he'd ridden one & was impressed). 80,000 km later, I'm yet to feel any regret. It has the Mistrals on it at the moment, but I've sent to Tassie for the standard rear hangers to fit the Agostinis. I shall try once more to fit the Staintunes to the Agostini headers on the V7C; they didn't fit when first mounted, but they do fit when on the bench, so I'll try again. The chrome Staintunes look prettier than the black Agostinis, although with the stainless headers at least, they seem to work better - absolutely no popping on decel. The Staintunes on the V7C's stock headers had an occasional pop. Is it the headers, or it is the muffler? I've a set of Ago headers for the Special too, awaiting fitment (& further corrosion of the original double-walled affair.
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Bugger. I'd like to get my hands on a II (6 speed) now that Clancy has gone big block. Thanks anyway, Mal.
Unless the headers are significantly different in length or diameter, it'll be the mufflers causing the pop.
The no-cat dBk-in map is done. The factory exhaust map is done. I've pulled the dB killers on the Agostini's on the Racer. I'll soon be terrifying the neighbors with that raucous din. Once that map is done, I'll be finished with the V7-I.
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I have a 2013 V7 Stone that is using one of your earlier maps V7-1TB-NoCat-C6C0.2016.09.27.bin . I am running a Guzzitech 2:2 stainless steel exhaust and wouldn't mind trying the new map. I have been happy with the current map but after a recent trip to Mexico I've been getting engine check lights and my idle has been running up to 2-3k for a time. Happened again on a ride just this week.
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Very well done, Mark.
The Ago headers are the same length, but they are fatter & single walled. I tried the Agostini mufflers without the dB killers on the V7C when I first mounted the new headers. A very deep bass rumble, but after some 300k it started popping on decel & the rumble wasn't comfortable, so the killers went back in. Now no popping at all. I'll see what happens with the Staintunes, if I can get them to fit.
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I have a 2013 V7 Stone that is using one of your earlier maps V7-1TB-NoCat-C6C0.2016.09.27.bin . I am running a Guzzitech 2:2 stainless steel exhaust and wouldn't mind trying the new map. I have been happy with the current map but after a recent trip to Mexico I've been getting engine check lights and my idle has been running up to 2-3k for a time. Happened again on a ride just this week.
Rick, I'll be sending the new map to everyone who has an earlier map soonest. I'll send you a download link now.
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Rick, I'll be sending the new map to everyone who has an earlier map soonest. I'll send you a download link now.
Thanks Mark!
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So after getting new Lonelec cables/adapters I've been able to install beetle's new map on my V7. I have a 2013 V7 Stone (single throttle body) with a guzzitech full stainless steel exhaust (no cat, no lambda's) and about 21,000 miles on it so far. I have used 3 maps on this bike in the past, the original factory map from 2013, a guzzitech reflash map circa 2014 and a beetle map from 2016 (most current map in use).
I loaded the map up (also reset the throttle self learning and ECU auto-learning parameters (If I have no lamba's does this do anything?) and decided to see if I could start the bike from cold and ride away. The bike started right up and away I went with no hesitation but I had two stop signs to negotiate in the first minute of riding and at both the bike seemed to hesitate just a touch. By the third intersection this was no longer an issue and I went on a 40 mile ride to get a sense of how the bike was reacting to the new map. I like the new map and didn't find any hesitation or flat spots at any point or any rev's. 40 miles isn't enough to see how fuel economy will be but I filled the tank at the start of the ride and will run it down with some backroad and highway miles to get a sense of how it is doing compared to the previous maps. For reference I'll use the low fuel light as a rough gauge of performance as I can't remember my fuel usage on my first two maps (factory and guzzitech) but I do remember seeing the low light come on at around 160 miles for the factory map and 140 miles for the guzzitech map. I got 171 miles out of my last tank on beetles previous map and filled the bike with 3.8 gallons so 45 mpg U.S.
One last thing and I'm sorry I didn't pay more attention but when the new map was loaded in my throttle value was 0.0 before I reset it to 1.0. I wish I had noted it when the older map was still installed but my memory is telling me it was also at 0.0 and I don't know how that would have affected the bike.
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I might have to tweak it slightly for the GT pipes.
:thumb:
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I might have to tweak it slightly for the GT pipes.
:thumb:
I'll try the same test again tomorrow and report back.
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Gentle beings, the map for the V7 with exhausts without cat and no dB killer is finished. I need a volunteer to test. Not for V7-II or V7C. Mistrals or Agostini's et al. Must have GuzziDiag and cables, of course.
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Gentle beings, the map for the V7 with exhausts without cat and no dB killer is finished. I need a volunteer to test. Not for V7-II or V7C. Mistrals or Agostini's et al. Must have GuzziDiag and cables, of course.
How many litres per KM or gallons per mile did it end up using? :D
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Not as bad as the big block noisy map, but owners should invest in the 21 Litre tank if they haven't already.... :evil:
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I'm late reporting back but I have run a tank of fuel though my V7 using the map beetle supplied me. After the first ride the bike would still ride away as soon as I started it up but would not take any throttle input once I stopped within the first minute without stalling. I repeated this 4 times but honestly I don't mind waiting one whole minute to start my ride, gives me time to preen in the mirrors or something. Other than the stalling when at low engine temp (I'm assuming this is the cause) the map worked brilliantly and I really like it. I had minimal popping on decel and that was when riding on a tight twisty road in the heat that required lots of throttle on/off and the popping was only once or twice, not a problem at all. As for gas mileage the low fuel light came on at 159.6 miles, I filled up at 186 miles using 4.276 US gallons of 89 rated 10% ethanol gas for 43.5 mpg. I feel I could get better mileage but this tank was used on all types of riding with a bit of dirt road mixed in as well. Happy with the map.
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I am really excited that this map has been developed!! My wife has a 2013 V7 Stone with the Mistral pipes (DB killers removed). It backfires horribly when decelerating and I have been waiting for a fuel map to be developed that cures this. I have the cables and software to install the map, but I will not be able to test it out for a couple weeks. I was attacked by a vicious herd of deer a few weeks ago while riding my Ducati and I fractured bones in my right leg and right hand. As soon as I have enough strength to operate the front brake, I'll give it a go...
Mark, thanks for persevering and making these awesome maps available!!
Bruce Stewart
Northfield, MN
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@Rick: I'll tweak the map for you. The GT pipe must require a slightly different approach.
@Bruce: I'll PM you a download link for the map.
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Seen many negative comments for the Booster Plug. I have these plug and play devices on three bikes. 2009 GRISO and 2014 1400 California. California after riding for 15 minutes pull up to a stop and it will ideal and then quit or quit when letting off the throttle before completely stopping. Booster Plug completely removed this stalling glitch. GRISO simply starts better idles better. I'm in Wisconsin have Booster Plug on an BMW oil-head too. Have had several Power Commanders and a Juice Box no longer interest in tweeking for improved performance just better engine mannerisms.
(https://i.ibb.co/Ryq8sMW/California-Lift-Ex4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Ryq8sMW)
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I thought I could feel a bit of non linear response to throttle openings on my test ride on the V85 but thought it was just ride by wire funniness.
It was as cold as a mother in law’s kiss though.
Fine when warm.
Musta’ been it..
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I thought I could feel a bit of non linear response to throttle openings on my test ride on the V85 but thought it was just ride by wire funniness.
It was as cold as a mother in law’s kiss though.
Fine when warm.
Musta’ been it..
You been smoking the special cigarettes? The v85 runs the 7SM and ride-by-wire. The V7 does not have these fancy doodads. Or are you haing a senior's moment, and have posted in the wrong thread? :grin:
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Hi Beetle. I know I’m kinda late to the party but by what process does one go about obtaining one of your fabled maps?. I have a 2013 V7 Stone, the first of the single throttle bodies. I have fitted Agostini mufflers with reduced baffles installed which to my ear hit about the right note. On the advice of my dealer who lives and breathes Guzzis I consented to him fitting some kind of electronic gizmo called an oxygen optimiser. The intention I believe was to address the hesitant/stalling tendency of the cold engine. I know such trickery is anathema to many and in particular to the revered luminary P Roper. Nonetheless my experience has been that there has been improvement in the cold motor behaviour without entirely curing it. There is no popping on deceleration, no flat spots and once warm the beast goes like a scalded cat. - well at least it sounds like it’s going like a scalded cat!. So it’s been a bit like leaving well enough alone and if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
And yet. It appears from all the reports of happy customers that there is a higher state available and that your good self is the one to supply it. Would you be kind enough to enlighten me further?
My regards. Das.
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Das,
Read this: https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=96957.0
Then go here: www.griso.org
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You been smoking the special cigarettes? The v85 runs the 7SM and ride-by-wire. The V7 does not have these fancy doodads. Or are you haing a senior's moment, and have posted in the wrong thread? :grin:
Maybe almost all of the above Beetle.
However, the V85 did exhibit a bit of surging in the first couple of minutes.
Only two things I’ve never had in my mouth and one of those would be a cigarette.
I would not know a 7SM from a BUIG 22, but I sure as hell know someone who does. I wouldn’t have been able to tell you what sort of throttle system’s on a V7 ‘cos I’ll never ride one in all likelihood.
Always gunna’ be fraught with danger posting anything on a thread about this topic because of my total lack of knowlege.
It did surge though....
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Thank you Beetle. I have ordered requisite cables. Slight issue with choice of relevant map. V7 with aftermarket mufflers; however, baffles are in place but cut down to around half original length. I also have an after market air filter installed which provides decreased resistance to the flow of air. Any thoughts on which particular map would be most appropriate to this configuration?
Thanks. Das.
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V7 with aftermarket mufflers; however, baffles are in place but cut down to around half original length. I also have an after market air filter installed which provides decreased resistance to the flow of air. Any thoughts on which particular map would be most appropriate to this configuration?
Get the "with dB killer" map. I can tweak it for you if necessary. I strongly recommend discarding the aftermarket air filter and reinstall the stock unit. They flow more than adequately for the V7.