Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: canuck750 on March 01, 2017, 06:10:38 PM
-
I have bit the bullet and bought another old Italian motorcycle in need of a full rebuild, this time its a 650 Benelli Tornado, only because it's Italian and the same vintage as my other bikes and I have a soft spot for the weird and quirky.
The engine is reported to be seized solid.
I read once that filling the crank case and cylinders up with diesel fuel will sometimes free the engine??
Any advice on what is the safest means of trying to free up a motor?
I will eventually strip the engine down but I would like to get in 'un-stuck'.
Thanks
Jim
-
2 things ive done. 50/50 acetone and trans fluid. and ive used coca cola. the acid eats rust!
-
2 things ive done. 50/50 acetone and trans fluid. and ive used coca cola. the acid eats rust!
I heard about the acetone and transmission fluid before, good results?
-
Depends on how bad it is stuck . Years ago an old BSA motor was dropped off at my house as a thank you for rebuilding a different old BSA motor . After Diesel fuel , acetone, heat , cold , and a dead chicken were employed , it came down to a cutting torch and sledge hammer . Try the 50/50 mix advised earlier first , that old BSA motor was reduced to scrap , but I won :grin:
Dusty
-
So it's an engine that was running and then shut off and sat for a time and set up... Not a running engine that seized because it was severely overheated and or run without oil?
-
PB Blaster in the spark plug hole.
-
I would pull the head off 1st and have a look see.
-
after its soaked a few weeks, put it in high gear, rock the back wheel back and forth. sometimes a blind pig gets luck.
-
Marvel Mystery Oil in each plug hole...let simmer for 2-3 days, then turn over by hand...
-
I got the "fence post" unseized by squirting a lot of Moovit into the spark plug hole several times for a couple weeks. I then used a prybar on the flywheel through the timing hole and it popped loose. I have had pretty good luck a couple other times by squirting Marvel Mystery oil onto the piston for a couple weeks and then breaking it loose with the rear wheel like troyhamilton suggested or using the kick start if it had one. There was only one time that I have encountered where it wouldn't come loose. That was on a r75/5. I had to use a puller to pull the cylinder off the piston. It made a mess of the top of the piston, but it and the cylinder were junk anyway.
-
my grandfather once made a grease zirk fitting in a plug hole, pulled the rest of the plugs. filled it with grease, used a presurized grease gun and broke it lose. id be afraid of bending a rod in that instance
-
I've tried the acitone and trans mix, PB Blaster, etc, etc. I like Marvel Mystery oil. But by far, the best penetrating oil I have ever used is Knock Er Loose by CRG.
-
One of my Benelli Tornado projects had a stuck motor. Removed the heads and as luck would have,there was some room on top as the pistons were stopped about an inch and change from the top. Soaked in diesel for about a week tapping lightly on the pistons with a wood block every so often. Eventually they loosened up. Good luck, Jim
-
Thanks for all the good advice guys!!, I have been lucky to never had a stuck motor.
The Benelli should arrive in a week or two and then I will start the soaking process.
Jim
-
Only ever done it (once) with the head off. Penetrating oil for a considerable period off time, then whaked it with the wood and hammer after a bit of heat to the barrel.
-
Well first you have to establish what has seized surely?
-
Funny, when this project is finished it may be the nicest on the planet!
On the centerstand, these bikes will walk around wile idling if parked on concrete, sort of like an old '60s toy football team.
-
Funny, when this project is finished it may be the nicest on the planet!
On the centerstand, these bikes will walk around wile idling if parked on concrete, sort of like an old '60s toy football team.
Just what I remember from an Laverda sf 750.
-
In the R/C Hobby days, a 50/50 marvel mystery oil and transmission fluid is what we used to prevent and loosen already seized and gunked-up engines.
These days, I'd probably pour some of this in and probably get better results.
https://www.napaonline.com/p/MCR6402
-
Well first you have to establish what has seized surely?
This, and how it has seized. I worked on a BMW /5 once that was seized due to the carbs overflowing, flooding the cylinders and then evaporating. I assumed it had rusted stuck. All of the "usual" concoctions did nothing, it wasn't until I switched to Berkebile 2+2 Gum Cutter that I started making progress.
-
My brother in law collects and restores hit and miss engines and he has used all the above to free up a frozen piston. He did get one that just wouldn't break loose, so the word in that community is to start a fire in the hopper to break the piston loose. I'm not suggesting anything like that in this case but it is interesting what people come up with to make things work.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/c7/1f/72/c71f723826b12e763357c22c486865e6.jpg)
-
Thanks again for the tips, I have no idea what the condition of the bike is other than it is described as the engine being stuck.
I am going to let it soak for a while and then start to pull the engine apart, looks like it will be interesting to learn how Benelli approached a twin cylinder engine. I like that the Benelli has a horizontal split crank case, like the Yamaha two strokes I used to fiddle with it sure makes engine work a lot easier!
I have found a service manual and a parts diagram so that's enough to be dangerous :evil:
-
Thanks again for the tips, I have no idea what the condition of the bike is other than it is described as the engine being stuck.
I am going to let it soak for a while and then start to pull the engine apart, looks like it will be interesting to learn how Benelli approached a twin cylinder engine. I like that the Benelli has a horizontal split crank case, like the Yamaha two strokes I used to fiddle with it sure makes engine work a lot easier!
I have found a service manual and a parts diagram so that's enough to be dangerous :evil:
I only had the top end apart on the one I owned back around '96. Over all a simple machine and much will be familiar to anyone with a Tonti Guzzi. Setting the timing was fun though - you have to remove the alternator and attach a degree wheel. This was just after mine arrived, before I started work on it:
(http://thumb.ibb.co/eBRkyv/Benelli_650_S_Tornado_001.jpg) (http://ibb.co/eBRkyv)
There's a possibility another may come my way later this year.
-
Those things look pretty stout. Nice.
-
Funny, when this project is finished it may be the nicest on the planet!
On the centerstand, these bikes will walk around wile idling if parked on concrete, sort of like an old '60s toy football team.
The old vert twin 360 degree crankshaft Brit bikes would walk backwards while idling on the centerstand . Norton Commandos would almost dance the front tire off the pavement at idle , the isolastics were tuned to work at 2,000 RPMs and above . Lots of fun to be had there :laugh:
Dusty
-
The old mechanic in the One Horse town in which I live, freed up a flathead Ford engine that had severely rusted cylinders, I mean all 8, sitting for decades out side in the weather. He simply filled the cylinders up with water after the heads were removed of course, let it sit a couple of weeks and then started whacking each piston crown with a chunk of fence post and a 5 LB hammer, a little rocking action on the crank at the same time and success was had. He reasoned that rust was caused by water and water will penetrate the rust bond, well it worked! DonG
-
The old mechanic in the One Horse town in which I live, freed up a flathead Ford engine that had severely rusted cylinders, I mean all 8, sitting for decades out side in the weather. He simply filled the cylinders up with water after the heads were removed of course, let it sit a couple of weeks and then started whacking each piston crown with a chunk of fence post and a 5 LB hammer, a little rocking action on the crank at the same time and success was had. He reasoned that rust was caused by water and water will penetrate the rust bond, well it worked! DonG
Now there's a testament to the ruggedness of a flat head Ford!
-
I heard about this solution second hand. Not sure of the exact conditions but....
Pour oil into heads. Put engine on a hot plate, and allow the engine to warm up. Once up to temperature, 160-190F say, try working the crank every so often until the pistons release.
-
The old mechanic in the One Horse town in which I live, freed up a flathead Ford engine that had severely rusted cylinders, I mean all 8, sitting for decades out side in the weather. He simply filled the cylinders up with water after the heads were removed of course, let it sit a couple of weeks and then started whacking each piston crown with a chunk of fence post and a 5 LB hammer, a little rocking action on the crank at the same time and success was had. He reasoned that rust was caused by water and water will penetrate the rust bond, well it worked! DonG
That's what I used on a B33 BSA that had been sitting
Outside without a Carby or Exhaust Pipe for a couple
of years. At 19 and with no-one to advise me it was all I
could think of - I think I was lucky as I didn't use any
lubricant.
Maurie.
-
I had a seized engine that just had the rings a little stuck to the cylinders with light rust. The engine wouldn't turn, but all it took was tapping on the pistons with a wooden handle of a hammer. It ran for quite a few miles after that before I redid its top end.
-
ive often thought if you added air pressure thru a air hose at lo presure it would push the acetone/trans fluid down faster to break the cyl loose
-
That would be simple, my snap-on knock off compression gauge kit has hoses with air connections, it would be simple to throttle back my air pressure to say 5 psi and attach the air to the compression gauge hose threaded into a spark plug hole. But it will depend on the valves being closed and the chances of that for both cylinders is slim. Still neat idea.
-
yeah right on about the valves must be closed
-
Now there's a testament to the ruggedness of a flat head Ford!
Nearly 100 percent of Ford flatty V8's have cracked blocks...There's even a list of good and bad cracks....Excessive force leads to more problems....
I used to into vintage trucks and freeing up rust seized pistons was common...A lot of pounding and beating got things freed up and also bent connecting rods...You would be surprised how easily rods bend..You would be surprised that a low speed engine will run ok with bent rods...I wouldn't force something like a performance bike engine.If it doesn't free up easily with the usual oil in the cylinders..Pull the head(s) and rig a auto damper puller across the bore and use the screw thread to push down on the piston...Just break it loose don't try to move it....
-
You're all still assuming it has a cylinder locked in the bore. What if it isn't? One of the things these bikes were famous for is buggering their starters, can't remember the exact details but it locked them solid! If it's an electric start model the pistons and barrels may be fine but it may have a locked starter clutch, or sprag, or whatever bit of shit they have? Could also be a locked main or big end! Why assume it's a piston in a bore?
Pete
-
You're all still assuming it has a cylinder locked in the bore. What if it isn't? One of the things these bikes were famous for is buggering their starters, can't remember the exact details but it locked them solid! If it's an electric start model the pistons and barrels may be fine but it may have a locked starter clutch, or sprag, or whatever bit of shit they have? Could also be a locked main or big end! Why assume it's a piston in a bore?
Pete
Exactly, I asked early on that the cause needs to be determined ....But the flow when with a corrosion seizure...
-
You're all still assuming it has a cylinder locked in the bore. What if it isn't? One of the things these bikes were famous for is buggering their starters, can't remember the exact details but it locked them solid! If it's an electric start model the pistons and barrels may be fine but it may have a locked starter clutch, or sprag, or whatever bit of shit they have? Could also be a locked main or big end! Why assume it's a piston in a bore?
Pete
Mine "buggered" it's sprag, but that didn't lock anything up, I just had to kick start from then on. Bottom-end is a possibility - it's ball and roller bearing mains and roller bearings for the rods. Think they supported the crank well enough? :wink:
(http://benelliparts.de/1_benelli/650_04.jpg)
-
Wonder if Evapo-rust might help (if its rings) I've seen that stuff work magic on rust.
-
You're all still assuming it has a cylinder locked in the bore. What if it isn't? One of the things these bikes were famous for is buggering their starters, can't remember the exact details but it locked them solid! If it's an electric start model the pistons and barrels may be fine but it may have a locked starter clutch, or sprag, or whatever bit of shit they have? Could also be a locked main or big end! Why assume it's a piston in a bore?
Pete
I may get lucky and find its not piston or crank! that would be a nice surprise, sounds like I need to do some examination / disassembly before I start with filling the lump with release agents.
Thanks Pete, I remain hopeful.
-
Wonder if Evapo-rust might help (if its rings) I've seen that stuff work magic on rust.
Now there's a thought! :thumb: The Morini engine I'm rebuilding had been disassembled and the internals left to rust in a damp basement. I soaked all of it in EvapoRust and the better part of it came loose, some of it was even reusable...
-
My two cents: After you make sure best you can that it's really the pistons that are stuck, take the head off so you can see any apparent damage. I use penetrating oil and a hair dryer or heat gun set on low. I oil it up, heat the cylinders from the outside at the ring level and try rocking the rear wheel in gear every few days till I either give up or it does. I don't give up easily. I use similar tactics of oil and mild heat on recovered antique firearms. An 1866 found underground after the plains Indian wars took me a year to properly disassemble.
-
Depending on the machine, it's construction and where in the bore the pistons are, you can sometimes free the barrel and lift. If there is movement up you could assume that it is the piston rather than the crank. No movement, well, it could still be either.
-
This is the bike I purchased, it has been listed on the Canadian Classic Bike Exchange for a long time and before that I saw it a shop in Calgary years ago, it just kept poping up and as much as I tried I just couldn't pass on it.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg217/canuck750/1973%20Laverda%20SF1/Benelli%20650_zpsopglbsbv.jpg) (http://s249.photobucket.com/user/canuck750/media/1973%20Laverda%20SF1/Benelli%20650_zpsopglbsbv.jpg.html)
"1974 Benelli Tornado. 650cc . Motor is stuck, In need of a full restoration. "
I have ordered a full set of gaskets, cables, rubber pieces and seals from a Benelli parts supplier in Germany. http://www.benelliparts.de/. link courtesy of "Guzzista". Looks like most of the parts are available.
I think it will fit nicely between a Moto Guzzi V7 Sport and a Laverda SF1.
This Benelli also shares the Delorto VHB29 carbs, CEV and Bosch electrical, and Borrani rims common to Guzzi. Front forks are Marazochi and the rear shocks are the same Ceriani as on my Laverda 750 SF. Wolfgang stocks parts for both. Instruments are 80mm Veglia, and headlight is the similar to the CEV on the V7 Sport. I found a used set of side covers on Ebay.
-
Jim,
I recently have been dealing with reviving a 1928 Triumph Model NSD (550cc). It probably has been sitting for 50+ years. I soaked it in Kroil and gave the heat/cool cycles for a month or so, then adapted a zerk fitting to the spark plug hole and pushed the piston out with a pneumatic grease gun. Took maybe five minutes! This is a blind head engine (single casting head and cylinder) which actually made it simpler. Valves both closed of course...
One other break I had was that the piston was about 1/3 way down stroke, so I was able to lift cylinder up and clean up rust on cylinder walls under the piston skirt. If your pistons are stuck in that Benelli, I doubt they will be as bad as they were in this relic! :) Pics below:
View under piston. NOT pretty!
http://(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k234/wv_guzzi/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-11/039821BE-EFC4-4B0E-B229-256D8A4E25A6_zpsyguicatk.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/wv_guzzi/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-11/039821BE-EFC4-4B0E-B229-256D8A4E25A6_zpsyguicatk.jpg.html)
Hydraulic pressure doing it's magic!
http://(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k234/wv_guzzi/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-12/5D547279-09F8-4238-A083-AFF44D6B192F_zpsfbzjbkve.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/wv_guzzi/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-12/5D547279-09F8-4238-A083-AFF44D6B192F_zpsfbzjbkve.jpg.html)
Voila!
http://(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k234/wv_guzzi/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-12/BC0CF370-C6DC-412E-A96C-78E696EF22CD_zpsctwmgyix.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/wv_guzzi/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-12/BC0CF370-C6DC-412E-A96C-78E696EF22CD_zpsctwmgyix.jpg.html)
This is "before" the revival. I'm not restoring this bike. Just bringing it back to life and keeping all that wonderful patina!
http://(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k234/wv_guzzi/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-11/CCF1DEC1-27DF-4547-A383-A6AF4DA51C88_zps5t7jhvje.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/wv_guzzi/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-11/CCF1DEC1-27DF-4547-A383-A6AF4DA51C88_zps5t7jhvje.jpg.html)
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k234/wv_guzzi/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-11/7DF1756C-4D12-42AD-AFB5-0D095D236FA1_zps4mxeejtz.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/wv_guzzi/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-11/7DF1756C-4D12-42AD-AFB5-0D095D236FA1_zps4mxeejtz.jpg.html)
http://(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k234/wv_guzzi/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-11/167AF3AC-BE6B-4589-AE3B-8C6838AA677A_zpspwsfsslu.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/wv_guzzi/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-11/167AF3AC-BE6B-4589-AE3B-8C6838AA677A_zpspwsfsslu.jpg.html)
Acetylene tail light
http://(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k234/wv_guzzi/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-11/D1629E8A-D1A2-49C2-9FDB-9DF12058F6AE_zpsv7sfd4dw.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/wv_guzzi/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-11/D1629E8A-D1A2-49C2-9FDB-9DF12058F6AE_zpsv7sfd4dw.jpg.html)
-
The Tornado is interesting, super short stroke and all. Quite revvy. I seem to have heard it was one of the competitors for the police project that originated the V7, that would be cool if it's true.
So Jim are you planning on recreating the Italian '70s bike scene? My friend did a " 4 horseman" collection from the decade, a LeMans, Laverda, Ducati, MV. The Benelli makes a fascinating addition.
Mark, I love that Triumph. And I do enjoy sidevalve engines-don't know iI could handle the fixed head design!
-
By far the best penetrant in the U.S. is Kroil.
http://www.kanolabs.com/
Kroil, time, and heat if possible will get you there. The most important ingredient is patience.
Another useful tool is Evap-O-Rust (harbor freight) but it needs to be used first as its water based and won't displace oils.
I've never used the grease fitting method but that's going into the memory banks for the future.
-
The Tornado is interesting, super short stroke and all. Quite revvy. I seem to have heard it was one of the competitors for the police project that originated the V7, that would be cool if it's true.
So Jim are you planning on recreating the Italian '70s bike scene? My friend did a " 4 horseman" collection from the decade, a LeMans, Laverda, Ducati, MV. The Benelli makes a fascinating addition.
Mark, I love that Triumph. And I do enjoy sidevalve engines-don't know iI could handle the fixed head design!
I understand the Tornado's were quite quick and more powerful than their contemporaries - maybe approaching 100hp per litre?
Yes, Aaron it's been a challenge so far! It took me some time to find someone to bore and sleeve the cylinder. It was too rusted to bore oversize. The crank has a loose crankpin and the mains are shot of course, but it's all fixable and I've found a couple of good sources in the UK for parts.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k234/wv_guzzi/Mobile%20Uploads/2017-01/E1954CC2-CC3A-4B57-B63E-FCC26A7585DA_zpsgg9aalkz.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/wv_guzzi/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2017-01/E1954CC2-CC3A-4B57-B63E-FCC26A7585DA_zpsgg9aalkz.jpg.html)
-
By far the best penetrant in the U.S. is Kroil.
http://www.kanolabs.com/
Kroil, time, and heat if possible will get you there. The most important ingredient is patience.
Another useful tool is Evap-O-Rust (harbor freight) but it needs to be used first as its water based and won't displace oils.
I've never used the grease fitting method but that's going into the memory banks for the future.
Kroil is absolutely the best stuff and yes, patience is the key! :) I let this thing soak in Kroil for at least a month before using the grease gun method.
-
The worst thing about the Benelli 650 Tornado S is vibration - the higher you rev it the worse it gets. That's why they have the "porcupine" footpeg rubbers and nearly everything (except the engine!) is rubber mounted.
-
My son bought a 76 T140 from a guy in Maine. He said it was stuck in gear when he parked it in a crawl space/basement with a sand floor. It was there for 23 yrs. and the only salvageable sheet metal was the gas tank and headlight bucket. He took the engine to a Brit Bike repair shop in Phoenix where the tried for several weeks to free the pistons. Finally had to hole saw through the piston crowns and pry the rest out. The pistons were junk anyway from corrosion. Interesting that the bottom end was in great condition. They cleaned out the sludge trap stuck in new bearings, freed up the clutch and fitted new pistons with over bored cylinder block. Silly thing runs great.
-
Nice work Mark! and thanks for the tips. I am going to find some of that Kroil stuff.
I would like to get one of each of the Italian manufacturers early 1970's models, I doubt it would include a MV and even a Ducati is looking like a hard pill to swallow. But the Laverda, Benelli and maybe a Morini would be a nice to go with the Moto Guzzi. I have really fallen for the Laverda 750 and I think the Benelli will be just as interesting.