Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: guzziownr on March 04, 2017, 07:00:44 AM
-
I am almost ready to put the timeserts in the front cover of my Griso . There are four 8mm SS bolts that are in there tight. Penetrating oil has been applied and I am thinking of using my torque wrench to gradually increase the amount of force used to ensure I don't strip or otherwise destroy the fasteners. How much would be too much?
(http://thumb.ibb.co/kEVyJv/IMG_1301.jpg) (http://ibb.co/kEVyJv)
-
I am almost ready to put the timeserts in the front cover of my Griso . There are four 8mm SA bolts that are in there tight. Penetrating oil has been applied and I am thinking of using my torque wrench to gradually increase the amount of force used to ensure I don't strip or otherwise destroy the fasteners. How much would be too much?
(http://thumb.ibb.co/kEVyJv/IMG_1301.jpg) (http://ibb.co/kEVyJv)
An I misreading you, or does that need re explaining ? The bolts are in there tight, and you want to increase torque ???
-
8mm used to be 22ftlbs, since 06' they got changed to 18ftlbs.
-
An I misreading you, or does that need re explaining ? The bolts are in there tight, and you want to increase torque ???
Sorry Huzo, that was not clear. I am removing the front cover to put it on the bench and put a timesert into the stripped front engine mount.
My torque wrench works both ways. I can set it to see how much force I am applying to the fastener to avoid stripping it while removing.
Thanks to Guzzisteve for the correct spec. It feels like more than 20 ft lbs by hand but I have been accused of insensitivity in the past.
-
My torque wrench works both ways. I can set it to see how much force I am applying to the fastener to avoid stripping it while removing.
Thanks to Guzzisteve for the correct spec. It feels like more than 20 ft lbs by hand but I have been accused of insensitivity in the past.
Oh, ok now I see. You won't strip a thread by trying to undo an over tightened bolt but you may break off the head. Is localised warming an option ?
-
Oh, ok now I see. You won't strip a thread by trying to undo an over tightened bolt but you may break off the head. Is localised warming an option ?
I tried a bit of that yesterday with a heat gun. There is a light snow outdoors right now. The garage is around 50 degrees F.! I will try a little more gentle persuasion.
-
I tried a bit of that yesterday with a heat gun. There is a light snow outdoors right now. The garage is around 50 degrees F.! I will try a little more gentle persuasion.
Try to get the heat into the aluminium before the bolt gets too hot. The Al has a greater co efficient of expansion, so should allow easier rotation of the bolt. Good luck !
-
A lot of differences in penetrating oils, some are worthless. Best is aerokroil fallowed by pb blaster. A steady torque while applying heat with a propane torch would be my choice though.
-
A lot of differences in penetrating oils, some are worthless. Best is aerokroil fallowed by pb blaster. A steady torque while applying heat with a propane torch would be my choice though.
For some reason Kroil is had to find here in my (NY, Bear Mt.) area. I will stop by AutoZone later today.
Huzo writes: Try to get the heat into the aluminium before the bolt gets too hot. The Al has a greater co efficient of expansion, so should allow easier rotation of the bolt. Good luck !
Thanks, That block is a big heat sink!
My understanding of torque wrenches was faulty. It works both ways but only measures torque one way. Another clever plan ruined.
-
I have two words for you. Impact driver.
-
I have two words for you. Impact driver.
If you do not have one, use a breaker bar, tap down on it (directly over the socket) while exerting CCW force.
Used to do that a lot removing JIS screws, but it helps with any fastener.
If that does not work, with moderate force, then have someone tap CCW on the breaker bar, in synch with taping down on the bar/socket.
-
When I lived in Flagstaff, mid nineties, my #2 daughter and husband stayed with us a few months.
Son-in-law did some work on his VW bus.
Tried getting axle nut (thirty something mm) off with socket, breaker bar and cheater bar.
Did not budget with both of us jumping on it.
He then borrowed a stubby brass box wrench, only a few inches long, designed just for that nut, to be hit with a mallet.
Couple whacks and the nut was loose.
-
I have two words for you. Impact driver.
:cool:
-
I have used the tapping technique with good results in the past so that will be up next. Blackcat is unfortunately in Florida so he is unable to give his usual encouragement (scowling and grunting)
-
I have two words for you. Impact driver.
Yeah, that's better than my plan. As an added precaution, I'd beg/ borrow/ steal or buy, a six sided good quality socket. If you round off the head, you're rooted.
-
All sockets in my tool boxes are 6 sided, except for some specific for 12 point heads.
-
Currently watching youtube how-to
(http://thumb.ibb.co/js6ika/IMG_1302.jpg) (http://ibb.co/js6ika)
-
Sometimes just pouring a couple of kettles full of hot water over it will do the trick. Always worth a try.
-
Sometimes just pouring a couple of kettles full of hot water over it will do the trick. Always worth a try.
A non-destructive cure...
-
For some reason Kroil is had to find here in my (NY, Bear Mt.) area. I will stop by AutoZone later today.
Huzo writes: Try to get the heat into the aluminium before the bolt gets too hot. The Al has a greater co efficient of expansion, so should allow easier rotation of the bolt. Good luck !
Thanks, That block is a big heat sink!
My understanding of torque wrenches was faulty. It works both ways but only measures torque one way. Another clever plan ruined.
Kroil can be found online. https://websecure.cnchost.com/kanolabs.com/orders/order.shtml
It's my understanding that you should not use a torque wrench to remove bolts.
-
It's my understanding that you should not use a torque wrench to remove bolts.
Point 7 in this link:
http://www.norbar.com/en-us/News-Events/Blog/entryid/449/the-ten-things-you-should-know-about-your-torque-wrench
-
Point 7 in this link:
http://www.norbar.com/en-us/News-Events/Blog/entryid/449/the-ten-things-you-should-know-about-your-torque-wrench
Max torque on my wrench is 120 lbs/ft so I don't think an 8 mm bolt is going to give it much trouble. Any pointers on the impact driver? Set it and whack it seems to be the short version.
-
I will bet Luigi used some form of lock tight (that will be white when you get them out) on those fasteners so heat should be your friend..
-
I will bet Luigi used some form of lock tight (that will be white when you get them out) on those fasteners so heat should be your friend..
Yes, the V7 II service manual lists repeated use of Loctite 243. May be the same for this application, unless bolted on dry.
But that is blue (not red) and is only moderate strength, which should remove "with hand tools"
However, if that does work, then 250 C is recommended.
https://dgs.oce.com/PrinterSupport/ProCut_Customer/MSDS/LOCTITE_243_MSDS_EN.pdf
-
Max torque on my wrench is 120 lbs/ft so I don't think an 8 mm bolt is going to give it much trouble. Any pointers on the impact driver? Set it and whack it seems to be the short version.
Make sure you twist it in the direction you want to go. Depending on how well its made they can have a habbit of changing direction between blows.
-
Make sure you twist it in the direction you want to go. Depending on how well its made they can have a habbit of changing direction between blows.
Hopefully Guzziownr will not be using a dead hammer on his torque wrench!
-
Currently watching youtube how-to
(http://thumb.ibb.co/js6ika/IMG_1302.jpg) (http://ibb.co/js6ika)
I'll clarify make sure you twist it int he direction you want to go otherwise they tend to swap directions between blows.
-
^^^^^^ He's talking about the impact driver. It's easy to use.. hold torque on it with your hand in the direction you want it to go. (Normally, counterclockwise to remove a RH bolt) and smack it with your copper hammer. This serves two purposes.. it keeps the screwdriver/socket/allen wrench firmly bottomed out while giving the fastener a good jerk to break it free.
-
^^^^^^ He's talking about the impact driver. It's easy to use.. hold torque on it with your hand in the direction you want it to go. (Normally, counterclockwise to remove a RH bolt) and smack it with your copper hammer. This serves two purposes.. it keeps the screwdriver/socket/allen wrench firmly bottomed out while giving the fastener a good jerk to break it free.
LOL...that'll teach me to pay more attention to the wording!
-
For some reason Kroil is had to find here in my (NY, Bear Mt.) area. I will stop by AutoZone later today.
Huzo writes: Try to get the heat into the aluminium before the bolt gets too hot. The Al has a greater co efficient of expansion, so should allow easier rotation of the bolt. Good luck !
Thanks, That block is a big heat sink!
My understanding of torque wrenches was faulty. It works both ways but only measures torque one way. Another clever plan ruined.
You will not find it at Autozone. You old guys need to realize that Google and Amazon are you friend
https://www.amazon.com/Kano-Aerokroil-Penetrating-aerosol-AEROKROIL/dp/B000F09CEA/ref=sr_1_2?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1488685963&sr=1-2&keywords=kroil+penetrating+oil
-
Auto zone level stores have stud extractors for about $15 that work with a rattle gun. I have yet to be defeated by any threaded shaft that I could get it to bite on. It pulls head and bell housing studs as well as broken exhaust studs and seized bolts.
-
After letting it soak with your favorite magic potion, apply turning pressure with a box end wrench while rapped light tapping on the head with a very light hammer, possibly a small brass hammer o prevent peening.
-
Just a thought. Somenone said to apply heat to the aluminium block as the coefficient of expansion is greater than steel. My eperience has been that a bolt hole which is surrounded by metal which is larger than the diameter of the bolt hole will actually try to shrink the bolt hole. This will be advantageous in helping to break the connection between the bolt and the threaded hole but will actually tighten the hold of the threaded hole on the bolt in most cases. A more effective solution is to apply freeeze to the bolt. If, however, Loctite is involved, heat is the only answer.
Cheers
Brian :grin:
-
Just a thought. Somenone said to apply heat to the aluminium block...
Cheers
Brian :grin:
My coefficient of patience is shrinking and AF1 has replacement bolts for $2.50 each so I plan to apply some more force and see what breaks first.
The Sasquatch speaks: "After letting it soak with your favorite magic potion, apply turning pressure with a box end wrench while rapped light tapping on the head with a very light hammer, possibly a small brass hammer to prevent peening."
This technique has served me well in the past. We will see what the new day brings.
-
My vote also goes for heating the bolt head to soften any locktite on the threads first, and then use an impact tool of some sort before it re-hardens. I like a turbo propane torch head for small stuff. Stainless steel bolts into aluminum are notorious for corroding aluminum so, don't be surprised if they break off. Either way, time to move forward. Mike
-
After a 48 hr soak in PB Blaster the reluctant bolts came lose with little drama
(http://thumb.ibb.co/hVx15a/IMG_1308.jpg) (http://ibb.co/hVx15a)
how do you upload pictures (http://imgbb.com/)
. Pictured is a 2013 Griso front cover next to a 2007 Norge cover. Minor differences between them.
-
Hmmm. Those 4 bolts had a definite 'set' in my Breva 1200 engine, but no drama at all breaking them loose.
So is it one of the side bolt holes in the engine case that is stripped, or is it a hole in the cover itself? I have a cover that I removed from a factory crate engine, never installed (Breva 1200), that looks identical to the one you're removing. If you don't want to timesert yours, PM me.
-
www.kanolabs.com
-
Hmmm. Those 4 bolts had a definite 'set' in my Breva 1200 engine, but no drama at all breaking them loose.
So is it one of the side bolt holes in the engine case that is stripped, or is it a hole in the cover itself? I have a cover that I removed from a factory crate engine, never installed (Breva 1200), that looks identical to the one you're removing. If you don't want to timesert yours, PM me.
Thanks for the offer!
Having stripped the frame mount on the side of the cover with excessive enthusiasm (manual says 60, it stripped at 55) I was very cautious with the 8 mm bolts. After two days of soaking it only took a bit over 20 LBS/FT to free them. The Norge cover was purchased as a practice piece for my neophyte timeserting. It now wears two. I did the one on the Griso cover this afternoon and it is back on the motor.
Now I just have to put the pieces of the puzzle back together.