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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: John Ulrich on May 31, 2017, 12:41:42 PM
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What's your experience? Costco is hooked up with Sunrun Solar They quoted me $8,500 for a 2.61 KW system to power a winter home. I'll get credits in the summer from the utility when I'm not here and use the credits & output in the winter when I'm here.
Anyone have actual experience with this company thru Costco?
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Ask Jay (JAS67). He seems pretty fanboy about his sometimes.
Despite the fact that it's like a 30 year payout and he still needs a generator when the grid goes down.
But maybe they're better now.
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What's your experience? Costco is hooked up with Sunrun Solar They quoted me $8,500 for a 2.61 KW system to power a winter home. I'll get credits in the summer from the utility when I'm not here and use the credits & output in the winter when I'm here.
Not familiar with this system but just decided to not go solar here in Arizona because my house is not all electric. I have electric & propane for heat/water heater. As for the credits at my co-op electric co., sure they would give me credits for excess solar I didn't use but not at the same value of what they charge you as a customer to buy it, so they make $ off of that too. If a house is not all electric it's not worth it, IMHO. And like said, if the power co. goes down so does your power unless you have backup.
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Just park your Tesla in the garage and plug into that. Is charging up electric cars still free?
It was here in Canada.
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OToh I've had a solar powered clothes dryer all my life. I did have a line break one time because of a heavy load and high wind.
Tex
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OToh I've had a solar powered clothes dryer all my life. I did have a line break one time because of a heavy load and high wind.
Tex
HOA rules prevent line drying....apparentl y the neighbors don't care for the smell.
All electric.
payback in 6 years estimated.
The utility is changing the power buyback July 1st to a lower price. If I do it now I'm grandfathered for 20 yrs.
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Some information on Sunrun:
https://www.consumeraffairs.com/solar-energy/sunrun.html
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HOA rules prevent line drying....apparentl y the neighbors don't care for the smell.
...you're supposed to hang them out after they're washed...
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My brother has a system in SC that provides about 1/3 of his needs.
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All of our municipal clients want us to specify Solar Photovoltaic systems on their new buildings. There are small government incentives here for municipalities to employ the systems. Our electrical engineers always have the same conclusion, its a feel good thing, but the actual pay back cost is more like 12 ~ 15 years by which time the technology will have been substantially upgraded. Our university and energy industry clients spec the systems more for marketing their green stewardship than any other reason. Personally I would hold off for another 3 ~ 5 years. There is a huge spread in quality, life cycle cost, adaptability etc. in the many systems on the market today. Wen I purchased the office building my business is in I contemplated installing a system given I had to re-roof and replace my electrical distribution but the numbers did not work for a 10 year pay back on capital.
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The technology is moving quickly, but this is mostly in storage and grid inverters. Existing panels are pretty good panels and very reliable. I fitted some thin film panels on a house in London, these have a lower sicker efficiency compared to silicon wafer based panels but the measuring process doesn't give the full picture making them compare unfavourably with silicon. They are 'flashed' with 1000Watts/m2, equivalent to the sun, and their voltage and current measured at that point. The thin film ones actually have light doping effect in that their efficiency goes up after a period of exposure.
The clients put chairs in the basement to watch their meter go backwards. It soon wound it back to below their previous meter reading.
As they have not been around as long as crystalline PV panels their durability is not as certain. Their is little you can buy that has a 25 year guarantee, which is what the best crystalline and hybrid panels have.
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Some information on Sunrun:
https://www.consumeraffairs.com/solar-energy/sunrun.html
Thanks Jim, This mirrors other reviews I've seen.
My interest was peaked last weekend when two friends were over who both purchased homes with existing solar systems already installed. One pays $7.00 a month, the other $13.00 for accounting charges. I like the sound of that, but the "mass market sold" system sounds like a gamble.
Thanks everyone!
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HOA rules prevent line drying....apparentl y the neighbors don't care for the smell.
All electric.
payback in 6 years estimated.
The utility is changing the power buyback July 1st to a lower price. If I do it now I'm grandfathered for 20 yrs.
I'd NEVER live anywhere with an HOA. WTF are they doing sniffing your shorts?
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I'd NEVER live anywhere with an HOA. WTF are they doing sniffing your shorts?
:1: :cheesy:
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I'd NEVER live anywhere with an HOA. WTF are they doing sniffing your shorts?
I occasionally stayed in a company provided condo a few years back. Some rules I remember:
* No vehicles with advertising on them (company trucks, etc.)
* No hanging of anything outside to dry, including beach towels on the porch railings, etc..
* No boats on trailers in view
* No motorcycles! If someone rode in on one, it had to be parked outside the gate at the guardhouse and you either walked from there or got someone to pick you up.
I thought about going to a thrift store and buying a ton of underwear of all kinds, and stringing it all up between a couple trees on the golf course at about three in the morning, so I could watch the fun later that day.
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Funny this should come up. We're 12 days into converting our home with a 17.64KwH system. Rather large, but my goal is ZERO electric bill. Our utility company has been squeezing me long enough. Had this house been built only 1 county over, the electric bill would average $150 vs our $300 per month. For us, it would have been stupid to not convert. The local solar company offers zero down and no payments for 18 months, plus you get 30% of the total system cost back in tax rebate.
Anyhow, after only 12 days, we've generated roughly 1000 KWH. At $.10 per KW, easy to see that we've already knocked our bill down this month by $100 for only 1/3 of this month.
Yes, it can be a long term pay off. But the way I look at it, you're going to be using electricity anyways. So, why rent it when you can OWN it. Our plan is calculated at 25 years (at one rate that doesn't change), but most people will pay that and then some to a utility company that will continue to raise its rates. But, we're hoping to pay it off in 5 years. Then, no more electric bill. By that time, battery technology should be a lot better than now and we can add some batteries and go completely off the grid. The way it's going and the proposal has us still using about 25% from the grid. Would sure be nice to go into a hopefully early retirement with no utility bills at all. We shall see.
The straw that pushed us over the top was the fact that our utility sent us notice that rates will go up 15% in 2018. That equates about $60 per month for us. Too much. Rediculous. Price gougers. I hate them.
If you live in AR, OK, MO or KS and are interested in solar, PM me and I can get you in touch with the right people if you like.
Here's a link to the public monitoring site of our home if you'd like to see it:
https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/initClient?target=%27site/public?name=McKeever%20Mountain%27#/dashboard
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Payback varies greatly by state.
When we put our system in in 2011 SREC (Solar Renewable Energy Credits) were over $300.
That's $300 credit for 1000 KWh, plus the energy cost saves.
So, that's $0.30/KWh + $0.12/KWh (what we pay for electricity here in Central PA). So, $0.42/KWh.
The 9 KW system we put in was about $25k after tax credits from the Federal & PA governments.
Payback would've been about 7 years, but, a lot of solar capacity in the markets we could sell our SREC's into got put in, including some large commercial systems. SREC prices dropped to about $15 (per 1000 KWh). That pushed our payback out to 25-30 years :sad:
We bought at exactly the wrong time. A few years later, the per KW price of panels has come way down, so, the payback should be shorter for systems put in today.
YMMV.
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here in Okla you are charged to use the grid with solar.
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Another option here in Az. is buy or lease. Us older customers find it cheaper to lease, except me who decided to opt out. Since we belong to a co-op elec. co our cost is already cheaper than for profit elec. co.s. The only time we pay $100 or more a year for elec. is a couple months in the summer for air conditioning as it is.
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here in Okla you are charged to use the grid with solar.
Where we are at in Az. You are charged $23 a mo. in other fees even with solar panels. :thewife: Our elec. co. discourages you going solar.
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Who knew Luap was a hippie :grin:
Dusty
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here in Okla you are charged to use the grid with solar.
Same here in NZ. Just coming in now.
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Another option here in Az. is buy or lease. Us older customers find it cheaper to lease, except me who decided to opt out.
I've read too many horror stories about leasing. They over estimate how much your system will produce and you end up locked into a 20 yr lease for twice the monthly payment then your were paying before solar.
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I'd NEVER live anywhere with an HOA.
I wanted a HOA. I don't want to see junk cars in the front yard of my neighbors house, hot pink front doors or a 45ft RV in a 40 ft driveway with garbage cans sitting out. My wife and I went to our first board meeting a week ago and she commented how tough they were..... I said great, that keeps the complex nice from lazy asses with no manners. :thumb:
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You were quoted $3.26 per watt, which is a decent price (I was quoted $3.30 recently for a 4.6kW system). By all means get competing quotes from other installers. SolarCity does have a pretty good reputation but they're picky about where they want to work -- their business model cuts installation costs (for them) by doing a lot of installs in a concentrated area, usually a suburb, so that one or two crews can do a dozen installs in a week with short travel times. You may have better luck and get much better after-install service by dealing with a local installer instead of a national.
In Minnesota, check out this list of installers: http://www.mnseia.org/installers
An invaluable (nonprofit) resource is Doug Shoemaker at the Minnesota Renewable Energy Society -- he can point you at reliable info on state incentive, local utility company buy-back rates (called "feed-in tariffs" in the industry) and monthly connect charges. Your local installer will be able to explain all those issues too, but not always in a concise summary.
Minnesota Renewable Energy Society
2928 5th Avenue South
Minneapolis, MN 55408
Phone: (612) 308-4757
General Inquiries: info@mnrenewables.org
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I wanted a HOA. I don't want to see junk cars in the front yard of my neighbors house, hot pink front doors or a 45ft RV in a 40 ft driveway with garbage cans sitting out. My wife and I went to our first board meeting a week ago and she commented how tough they were..... I said great, that keeps the complex nice from lazy asses with no manners. :thumb:
Don't know what state you live in, but have seen much different compliances from different states. Have seen a shack right next to a mansion in Louisiana. This kind of thing out west is rare. So where you live makes a big difference. :wink: I have never had to live in a shabby neighborhood out west like you refer to unless I was in the same boat. Even then nothing is like Louisiana out this way. There's no way I would live in a HOA with all their regulations.
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HOA rules prevent line drying....apparentl y the neighbors don't care for the smell.
All electric.
payback in 6 years estimated.
The utility is changing the power buyback July 1st to a lower price. If I do it now I'm grandfathered for 20 yrs.
I would be nervous about the "grandfathering" clause. In many instances in North Carolina, it does not make economic sense, not even close, unless you include rebates and utilities paying you peak rate for excess generation (back into the grid).
Someone that worked for me put in a 15 kW system, works great but less than a year into it either laws were changed or the utility changed its policy but either way this guy lost his payback, it went to like 40 years - beyond the life of the system.
The current administration is pretty friendly to the idea of eliminating subsidies from tax money.
Cool stuff but be careful!
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What's your experience? Costco is hooked up with Sunrun Solar They quoted me $8,500 for a 2.61 KW system to power a winter home. I'll get credits in the summer from the utility when I'm not here and use the credits & output in the winter when I'm here.
Anyone have actual experience with this company thru Costco?
21 amps at 120 volts is one way to look at it...How much is your average yearly electrical bill?
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The current administration is pretty friendly to the idea of eliminating subsidies from tax money.
With coal coming back, who needs solar power?
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The place is located in Scottsdale, AZ. It's a gated HOA community with many snowbirds. It's well maintained and great for a part time resident.
I'm gonna pass for now. Too many "moving parts" right now and leaving in less then a week for MN.
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I'm in the process of setting up an nice camper as a summer home up on my parents' farm. Dad's getting older, and has had a rough spring, health wise, so he needs more help. So, there is a spot where there used to be a mobile home. That's long gone, but the well and septic system are still there, but the power pole and wires are history.
So, my solution, camper with a generator, but I don't want to run the gen all the time. Realistically, I only need it to power the well pump to fill the water tank in the camper. After that, the 12v pump inside the camper will handle water needs. So, to keep the 12v battery topped up, I've installed a small solar rig. So far, it's doing very well. Long term... we'll see.
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With coal coming back, who needs solar power?
Burn baby, burn! LOL Good one.
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The Sun...a Kinney Leisure Service, a wholly-owned subsidary of American Megatrends, LLC...some restrictions may apply...not available in all areas
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Who knew Luap was a hippie :grin:
Dusty
I thought you did :evil:
Seriously though, the price of electricity in this county is atrocious. They monopolize it because we have no choice to switch carriers. We have done nothing different since building the house 10 years ago. Then, the average monthly electric bill was about $150. Inflation is killing us. It's $300 per month on average right now, and will go up to roughly $350 per month beginning in 2018. That increase came from the electric company themselves. A 150% increase in only 10 years???? Preposterous.
The payments on our solar system is going to be $230 per month ($2.15 per watt), and hopefully our electric bill will be only the minimum charge of $25 per month (to stay connected to the grid). Simple math tells me to pay this sucker off in 5 years(hopefully), and have no electric bill by the age of 52. I can dig it.
Our elec. co. discourages you going solar.
I wonder why :evil:
If I'm the CEO of an electric company, I'm going to try and figure out how my company can sell solar systems to compete properly. Seems like I'd be in the business to sell electricity, regardless of where it comes from or who/what makes it. Profit is all that matters and when you get a certain percentage of customers downsizing, that eats profits and I'd be mad at my Operations Officer for not getting us involved in this new technology before it's too late...
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Where we are at in Az. You are charged $23 a mo. in other fees even with solar panels. :thewife: Our elec. co. discourages you going solar.
How do they actually discourage solar use? As an electrical contractor I had to deal with utility providers on a regular basic and in general they seemed to be full of silly procedures..probabl y due to regulations..
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Nearly all public utility companies are happy to sell renewable electricity -- as long as they control the source and the power lines. That is, they SELL electricity. What they don't like is customers making their own electricity. If enough customers do it, the business model goes to hell.
The traditional business model for a regulated utility was the cost-plus scheme: You promise the state regulators that you will make and sell electricity at the lowest possible cost, and the state utility commission lets you keep a certain percentage over that cost -- let's say that profit is 10%. You get to make a ten percent profit on any new facilities you build and any fuel you buy. So if I build a coal plant for $2 billion (paid by the ratepayers), $200 million goes to the stockholders. That's the cost for a typical 600 MW coal plant, and the plant will burn about $250 million in coal every year, meaning $25 million to the stockholders. 10% profit accrues to any transmission lines, transformers and other infrastructure I build. So if I build a solar power plant or wind farm, I make money on the sale of the electricity, and on the cost of building the resource and the transmission lines. What I forego is profit on the purchase of fuel.
But if the customer makes his own electricity -- solar, wind or small hydro -- the only thing I get to charge for is a base rate connection charge to help pay for maintenance of the transmission lines. And if everybody in a neighborhood has solar, the use of the transmission lines is greatly reduced -- I don't have to build newer higher-capacity facilities and I don't make a profit on that unbuilt infrastructure.
That's why utility companies have to be forced by state law to collaborate with solar-owning customers.
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APS is one supplier in Phoenix. July 1st new solar users will get paid less then the market rate for the electric they sell APS. Of course you will pay market rate for it when you need it back from them. The people buying leased systems after July 1st will find it harder to cost justify a lease which solar sellers claim will pay for itself and put money in your pocket.
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Nearly all public utility companies are happy to sell renewable electricity -- as long as they control the source and the power lines. That is, they SELL electricity. What they don't like is customers making their own electricity. If enough customers do it, the business model goes to hell.
The traditional business model for a regulated utility was the cost-plus scheme: You promise the state regulators that you will make and sell electricity at the lowest possible cost, and the state utility commission lets you keep a certain percentage over that cost -- let's say that profit is 10%. You get to make a ten percent profit on any new facilities you build and any fuel you buy. So if I build a coal plant for $2 billion (paid by the ratepayers), $200 million goes to the stockholders. That's the cost for a typical 600 MW coal plant, and the plant will burn about $250 million in coal every year, meaning $25 million to the stockholders. 10% profit accrues to any transmission lines, transformers and other infrastructure I build. So if I build a solar power plant or wind farm, I make money on the sale of the electricity, and on the cost of building the resource and the transmission lines. What I forego is profit on the purchase of fuel.
But if the customer makes his own electricity -- solar, wind or small hydro -- the only thing I get to charge for is a base rate connection charge to help pay for maintenance of the transmission lines. And if everybody in a neighborhood has solar, the use of the transmission lines is greatly reduced -- I don't have to build newer higher-capacity facilities and I don't make a profit on that unbuilt infrastructure.
That's why utility companies have to be forced by state law to collaborate with solar-owning customers.
I belong to a co-op electric company. Other elect. co. costs used to be $8. Now they are $23/mo. and this co-op has it's own solar panels for part of it's electricity feed. Figure this is why it doesn't want customers getting their own solar panels.
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I thought you did :evil:
Well and I do , but sometimes it still shocks me :laugh:
Dusty
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He's got a point, Luap. Who ever heard of a hippie computer geek?
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He's got a point, Luap. Who ever heard of a hippie computer geek?
Haha. In the words of George Jones, I'm no geek. "I'm a high tech redneck".
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My house in MI and in GA would have been perfect for solar. HUGE square area of roofing in the right direction. I just couldn't shell out the bucks up front. Renting now so it doesn't make a lot of sense but our next house I hope to have solar. I'll go with these guys, https://www.mysolarpod.com/ (https://www.mysolarpod.com/). Lot's of good info on their website for planning purposes.
Good luck!
-AJ
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Haha. In the words of George Jones, I'm no geek. "I'm a high tech redneck".
After 30 years of tech support work -- and still hating computers -- I call myself a techo-luddite.
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1.5kw on not a winter house (its about double what I actually use) top of the hill facing north, southern hemisphere with the older feed in tariff which expires soon the system has paid for itself over 6-7 years although now you'll pay a fraction of what I paid way back when. Haven't paid an electricity bill in that time ever, feed in tariff is much less although still worth it if you are at home using the power. Have been considering some kind of wind turbine to cover the days that are wet and windy which is typically what we have. Will see how home batteries turn out but they are not there yet IMO as a solution.
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For me, where I live, there'd never be a payoff.
Fay and I live in a 3200 sq foot house. Everything's electric, there's no gas lines here.
A 2.5 ton heat pump for the first two floors, a 1 ton heat pump for the top floor. Electric range, hot water heater, clothes dryer.
We mitigate the bill by hanging out clothes on the line when it's sunny, and burn wood we cut on the place to help keep the heat pumps off the resistance elements in the winter. I like long hot showers.
Electric bill averages $170 a month from the local co-op. No point at all in going for solar at that price .....
Lannis
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For me, where I live, there'd never be a payoff.
Fay and I live in a 3200 sq foot house. Everything's electric, there's no gas lines here.
A 2.5 ton heat pump for the first two floors, a 1 ton heat pump for the top floor. Electric range, hot water heater, clothes dryer.
We mitigate the bill by hanging out clothes on the line when it's sunny, and burn wood we cut on the place to help keep the heat pumps off the resistance elements in the winter. I like long hot showers.
Electric bill averages $170 a month from the local co-op. No point at all in going for solar at that price .....
Lannis
We too have a dryer but never use it. Put our wet clothes on the back patio clothes line and let the year round sun here in Aridzona save us some electricity. Only time we really use more elec. is 2 months in the summer for AC when it gets a little over $100/month to do. But our house is 1/2 the size of Lannis's. We do have a 3 car garage full of MCs/scooters though. Our house is well insulated and we're @ 3,500'. :grin: That would be mtn. high back East wouldn't it, whereas here it's the foothills. :tongue:
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We too have a dryer but never use it. Put our wet clothes on the back patio clothes line and let the year round sun here in Aridzona save us some electricity. Only time we really use more elec. is 2 months in the summer for AC when it gets a little over $100/month to do. But our house is 1/2 the size of Lannis's. We do have a 3 car garage full of MCs/scooters though. Our house is well insulated and we're @ 3,500'. :grin: That would be mtn. high back East wouldn't it, whereas here it's the foothills. :tongue:
My garage is on a separate meter ... about $20 a month. Has a 7500 watt heater but I seldom use it.
Fay and I are already planning our "next" house ... we built this one with our own hands 1989 - 1994, and it was great for raising our kids in, but the hope is that our son will move here when the time is right, and we'll build a 750 sq. ft. house on the place that's even easier to maintain and heat. We loved the floor plan of the 720 sq ft apartment that I lived in in 2013 when I was working in Denver CO, it'd be great for a couple of doddering old riders ... !
Maybe a solar water heater booster on the roof for that one ....
Lannis
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I thought you did :evil:
Seriously though, the price of electricity in this county is atrocious. They monopolize it because we have no choice to switch carriers. We have done nothing different since building the house 10 years ago. Then, the average monthly electric bill was about $150. Inflation is killing us. It's $300 per month on average right now, and will go up to roughly $350 per month beginning in 2018. That increase came from the electric company themselves. A 150% increase in only 10 years???? Preposterous.
The payments on our solar system is going to be $230 per month ($2.15 per watt), and hopefully our electric bill will be only the minimum charge of $25 per month (to stay connected to the grid). Simple math tells me to pay this sucker off in 5 years(hopefully), and have no electric bill by the age of 52. I can dig it.
I wonder why :evil:
If I'm the CEO of an electric company, I'm going to try and figure out how my company can sell solar systems to compete properly. Seems like I'd be in the business to sell electricity, regardless of where it comes from or who/what makes it. Profit is all that matters and when you get a certain percentage of customers downsizing, that eats profits and I'd be mad at my Operations Officer for not getting us involved in this new technology before it's too late...
the experience here is the elec utilities have successfully lobbied to eliminate all tax breaks for solar and charge homeowners with solar for hooking into the grid. So no savings & additional costs for having solar all the way around other than the electricity savings.
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I live in Connecticut and we have two power companies. You can buy your electricity from whichever company serves your area or choose your own supplier. I am presently spending .0499 per kw for electricity and the power company charges .10+ per kw to deliver it. Total rip off.
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utilities have successfully lobbied to eliminate all tax breaks for solar and charge homeowners with solar for hooking into the grid
The irony here is that more than 20 years ago, economic and technical studies proved that homeowner solar saves the utility companies money. They have to build fewer new power plants and way fewer new distribution lines. What those studies did not predict is that instead of embracing home solar, and selling it to their customers, utilities would double down on a 120-year-old business model.
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Testarossa, The guys running utilities see that bigger is better.
It's an inherent part of the system.
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Testarossa, The guys running utilities see that bigger is better.
It's an inherent part of the system.
Well, it sort of has to be.
When you have a huge fixed cost base (generating stations for base load), you make more money by having more customers paying into that same base.
Same reason why hotel owners live or die by occupancy rates. 80% of their costs are fixed whether anyone is staying there or not. They only make money when the place is full.
Hard to blame them for trying for more customers!
Lannis
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Lannis, I can blame them for clinging to the bigger-is-best model. There are alternative profit models that would keep them viable for the next century, but most of them insist on pushing prices ever upward, monopoly style. This will only drive customers to roll their own (called utility defection), as storage grows cheaper. See https://rmi.org/insights/reports/economics-grid-defection/
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Well, it sort of has to be.
When you have a huge fixed cost base (generating stations for base load), you make more money by having more customers paying into that same base.
Same reason why hotel owners live or die by occupancy rates. 80% of their costs are fixed whether anyone is staying there or not. They only make money when the place is full.
Hard to blame them for trying for more customers!
Lannis
Agree with you but you miss my point. I am meaning that business types have visions of grandeur. Wanting bigger and bigger and more and more regardless whether there's a market for it in the future. The hotelier in your example would build larger hotels and more hotels just to become bigger even if the customer base doesn't exist.
The future for electric utilities likely won't be simply more generating capacity, it will instead tend towards technology with "smart grid" and sustainable & hybrid generation. The thinking from the utilities is to resist homeowners' solar and protecting the "growth" model by using utility regulators to protect the status quo.
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Lannis, I can blame them for clinging to the bigger-is-best model. There are alternative profit models that would keep them viable for the next century, but most of them insist on pushing prices ever upward, monopoly style. This will only drive customers to roll their own (called utility defection), as storage grows cheaper. See https://rmi.org/insights/reports/economics-grid-defection/
well said. You made the point better than I.
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Just for the hell of it, I'm going to contact a couple of local Solar contractor's next week and see if I can get a price. Plenty of sun around here, so that shouldn't be an issue. We have gas heat/pass thru water heater but those costs keep going down with just a couple of days winter being the trend. I assume they haven't killed the Federal tax credits?
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Agree with you but you miss my point. I am meaning that business types have visions of grandeur. Wanting bigger and bigger and more and more regardless whether there's a market for it in the future. The hotelier in your example would build larger hotels and more hotels just to become bigger even if the customer base doesn't exist.
The future for electric utilities likely won't be simply more generating capacity, it will instead tend towards technology with "smart grid" and sustainable & hybrid generation. The thinking from the utilities is to resist homeowners' solar and protecting the "growth" model by using utility regulators to protect the status quo.
Yep, good point and you and Seth both have it right, I think ....
Our little REA "cooperative" doesn't have the Big Business feel that many big utilities do; one of the directors is our neighbor and Fay's cousin, so I guess I was thinking in that direction ....
Lannis
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The thinking from the utilities is to resist homeowners' solar and protecting the "growth" model by using utility regulators to protect the status quo.
This is exactly right. There are states in which the "public" utility companies literally own the state legislatures and/or the public utility commissions, and in these states they run rampant over their customers. The only thing worse than a state monopoly is a private monopoly that owns its state regulators.
In Florida, a court recently ruled that it's illegal to go off-grid -- if you're not connected to city water and grid power, you're in violation of some obscure regulations regarding home maintenance and public health issues. There have been prosecutions of off-grid communities elsewhere, sometimes predicated on child endangerment.
This raises questions for rural properties with well water and septic systems, especially when located more than a mile from the nearest electric transmission line. Can a utility company threaten you with jail if you don't pay to run a line in? In some states, where utilities have strong lobbies, the answer may someday be yes.
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In Florida, a court recently ruled that it's illegal to go off-grid -- if you're not connected to city water and grid power, you're in violation of some obscure regulations regarding home maintenance and public health issues. There have been prosecutions of off-grid communities elsewhere, sometimes predicated on child endangerment.
In the small town near me, if you aren't connected to the city water supply, you still pay a "water availability fee" because you can connect. I was afraid I'd end up paying a similar fee when the outlying county I'm in decided to build a water system, but so far it hasn't happened.
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APS is one supplier in Phoenix. July 1st new solar users will get paid less then the market rate for the electric they sell APS. Of course you will pay market rate for it when you need it back from them. The people buying leased systems after July 1st will find it harder to cost justify a lease which solar sellers claim will pay for itself and put money in your pocket.
That the way it's been around here for many years when selling back power from solar or wind turbines...The price the utility pays is about half what they charge.... Think about it, the utility company invests billions of dollars in equipment, workers, maintenance and transmission lines to sell their power... Then you want to sell them the power from your source and use their lines to do it? I think not... :laugh:
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This is exactly right. There are states in which the "public" utility companies literally own the state legislatures and/or the public utility commissions, and in these states they run rampant over their customers. The only thing worse than a state monopoly is a private monopoly that owns its state regulators.
In Florida, a court recently ruled that it's illegal to go off-grid -- if you're not connected to city water and grid power, you're in violation of some obscure regulations regarding home maintenance and public health issues. There have been prosecutions of off-grid communities elsewhere, sometimes predicated on child endangerment.
This raises questions for rural properties with well water and septic systems, especially when located more than a mile from the nearest electric transmission line. Can a utility company threaten you with jail if you don't pay to run a line in? In some states, where utilities have strong lobbies, the answer may someday be yes.
reminds of the Okla Corporation Commision.
The feds were investigating bribery and some of the wiretaps were later played on a PBS documentary. One of the wiretaps was with a Commissioner calling a Gas Company lobbyist (disclosure: I am a stockholder) asking for his "walking around money." This lead to no indictment to the fellow who was later elected to Congress.
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I did a small solar installation on the roof my van. 4 100 watt Renogy panels. They feed a 40 amp MPPT controller that charges a pair of 90 amp/hr deep cycle batteries. I got a high efficiency Renogy 500 watt inverter to make 110v available. When I travel the system acts like a perpetual motion machine to run a apartment sized fridge 24/7 AND keep a good charge on the batteries. Enough so they cruise the fridge at night with no problem.
Having a fridge with you traveling is an awesome thing. Keep food, drinks and insulin chilled.
During power outtages, I no longer have to run a generator. I run an extension cord out to the van and let the system run our home fridge.
Call me a happy customer of Renogy's products.
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Here's my new system, energized yesterday. 2.6kW covers our load nicely (we cook and heat with natural gas).
(http://thumb.ibb.co/dbB6S5/Solar2_6k_W.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dbB6S5)
how to post images online (http://imgbb.com/)
The array can be tilted to face the low sun in winter -- that also lets snow falling off the roof pass between the panels and the side of the house.
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I did a small solar installation on the roof my van. 4 100 watt Renogy panels.
Very nice. I put a little 40 watt panel and charge controller on my Dodge van that lets me run small loads like a powered roof vent or a Koolatron type cooler without having to be concerned about running the battery down. I figure that if I ever get traveling in a motorhome I'll probably put a big system like yours in it.
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Here's my new system, energized yesterday. 2.6kW covers our load nicely (we cook and heat with natural gas).
(http://thumb.ibb.co/dbB6S5/Solar2_6k_W.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dbB6S5)
how to post images online (http://imgbb.com/)
The array can be tilted to face the low sun in winter -- that also lets snow falling off the roof pass between the panels and the side of the house.
What is the quoted output of each panel? I see 18 panels at 2,6kw which by my reckoning is about 150 watts per panel,
Also, is that a battery pack I see or just an inverter?
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9 panels, 290w each. 300 vdc at 8.7 amps. That's the inverter. No batteries. I can add batteries later but if I need emergency power now I can tap 250 ah from the van. In bright sun the inverter can give me 1000wac independent of the grid.
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9 panels, 290w each. 300 vdc at 8.7 amps. That's the inverter. No batteries. I can add batteries later but if I need emergency power now I can tap 250 ah from the van. In bright sun the inverter can give me 1000wac independent of the grid.
Did you do the installation?
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I just dug the holes. Ed Eaton, one of my instructors from Solar Energy International, did the design, welding and construction.
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More supply is not the answer - it's conservation.
15 years ago I designed and built my house and I was a decent concrete laborer - poor framing carpenter, I installed Geothermeal here in California. I bet I'm the only one in Folsom, 75,000 people, with geothermal. During the weeks of 100+ weather my electricity bill is 1/4 of my neighbors well the 2x6 exterior walls, extra insulation, high-e windows and clay tile roof probably helps
I'm just a simple guy and I know that riding my Griso is more fuel efficient than driving my pickup.
The other interesting point is all those energy saving steps will continue to payoff for at least 50 years -- long after I'm gone. and the AC compressor works at such low pressure because of the efficiency of the water cooled AC that I bet it lasts the whole 50
(https://modernize.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/geothermal-heat-pump.jpg)
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While I applaud thee use of solar or wind at your home I do not think it poor of the power company to pay you the mfg rate for power you put on the line.'
Why? Everyone puts in solar panels. Daytime electric use goes down. But, at sunset power use goes through the roof. The power company has to have enough generation power to handle the peak load, not the average. Bottom line is they a HUGE amount of excess power at the times you want them to buy yours. Not fair. This is also why some areas used to have dual meters, one for daylight and one for night with different rates for each.
Industrial usage is billed in two parts for that reason, monthly peak usage and total usage. The peak charge is frequently higher than the total.
Nuclear and steam power plants do not start up and shut down easily. So, they are full time. Some power companies are building bunches of gas turbine power plants just for this reason. They can fire them up at sunset then shut down at sunrise. But, that means a large investment for them as well.
Bottom line is that homeowner solar costs the power company money, doesn't save them anything, so it makes electric generation for customers more expensive. You might want to factor into your costs how much energy you buy at night and what will happen when that rate doubles or triples.
Now, if you want to go totally off grid, that is a great thing. Get a bank of batteries, solar and wind generators, maybe a fuel cell or generator backup and you're ready.
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I pay a $27 monthly connection fee to the power company to maintain their infrastructure. It's a rural co-op -- that is, the customers own it. They're very happy to have customer-owned solar and wind contributing to their capacity -- it saves them buying expensive power from commercial sources like Black Hills Energy (from whom I buy natural gas, btw).
Some 30 years ago a PG&E engineer demonstrated that solar power located on outlying feeder lines reduced the need to upgrade those feeders as suburbs spread outward, and of course reduced the need to build new generating capacity. At that time the company estimated that local (solar) power coming into their grid was worth more than they were getting in payments from those outlying customers. And when customers own the solar source there is NO capital cost to the utility company -- a very significant saving, especially when interest rates are higher than they are now. The ONLY way that no capital cost, no maintenance cost and no fuel cost is anathema to the utility is if it's allowed to make a profit on those costs -- which is the 19th century business model cooked up by Samuel Insull and his Chicago pol cronies.
That's still the case in most parts of the country with long (expensive) distribution lines. The value of solar to the utility varies very widely, from about 3c to 14c per kWh. Around here, a rural co-op paying their own retail rate (10.5c here) considers it a bargain.
BTW our electric co-op is now stringing fiberoptic to provide high-speed internet to its remote customers. They'll probably charge $50 a month for that, which is a pretty good index to what it would cost to double up the electric power transmission capacity.
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My ex-wife and her husband are completely "off the grid." Solar and wind power only. It required a commitment to less convenience and a number of requirements like batteries and switching hardware. The big payoff for them is that they have completely cut out the utility company and they can live way out in the middle of nowhere (they live in New Mexico). I may install a few panels to reduce my bill, but I expect the utility companies will soon do something to get their market share back...and we all know what that means.
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Why? Everyone puts in solar panels. Daytime electric use goes down. But, at sunset power use goes through the roof. The power company has to have enough generation power to handle the peak load, not the average. Bottom line is they a HUGE amount of excess power at the times you want them to buy yours. Not fair. This is also why some areas used to have dual meters, one for daylight and one for night with different rates for each.
Industrial usage is billed in two parts for that reason, monthly peak usage and total usage. The peak charge is frequently higher than the total.
Nuclear and steam power plants do not start up and shut down easily. So, they are full time. Some power companies are building bunches of gas turbine power plants just for this reason. They can fire them up at sunset then shut down at sunrise. But, that means a large investment for them as well.
Bottom line is that homeowner solar costs the power company money, doesn't save them anything, so it makes electric generation for customers more expensive. You might want to factor into your costs how much energy you buy at night and what will happen when that rate doubles or triples.
Now, if you want to go totally off grid, that is a great thing. Get a bank of batteries, solar and wind generators, maybe a fuel cell or generator backup and you're ready.
The hours of peak load and demand to the electric company are during the day when solar panels are producing. Solar panels help offset this demand and are beneficial to the utility company.
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The hours of peak load and demand to the electric company are during the day when solar panels are producing. Solar panels help offset this demand and are beneficial to the utility company.
This is a great point, and it's why warehouse facilities and big-box stores across the southwest are putting up rooftop solar as fast as they can. Time-of-use pricing means cost of power spikes as high as 45c/kWh during peak air-conditioning/refrigeration hours so if they can knock the top off that power load curve everyone benefits.
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I took a tour of the Ford River Rouge plant recently. In addition to Solar they planted Sedum on the roofs. It grows two inches high and keeps the factories 10 degrees cooler in the summer and 10 degrees in the winter.
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More supply is not the answer - it's conservation.
There's actually a lot of that going on.
TVA, for example has been hiccuping along with deciding on whether to build new capacity. They'll start a big new plant, then demand will fall and they'll stop construction, cycle after cycle.
An analysis of the "needs" issue indicates that it's not just cycles in the economy, but that people and industries actually ARE using less power per house or per factory in many areas. More efficient heat pumps, more efficient refrigerators and dryers, more use of clotheslines (that's what we do).
Just from being careful about what we hook up and use, our own personal electric bill has gone from an average of $238/mo in 2005 to $189/mo today - same two people, same all-electric (no gas) house, same insulation, etc, just paying more attention to how we use it ....
Lannis
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The most cost effective way to save energy and $$$ is by efficiency improvements- For example, thanks to a power company subsidy, I bought a 10 pack of 100 watt equivalent LED bulbs for less than $10 this spring. Each bulb consumes but 15 watts, for a savings of 85 watts apiece and 850 watts or darn near a kilowatt for the carton of ten. So while solar costs about $3 and change a watt, I can get the same effect with those LED bulbs for around a penny a watt!
Now lets look at utilization- The solar arrays at best produce energy about 20% of the time on average, so that $3 a watt is really about $15 a watt cost, even higher if the grid has no load to absorb it when the sun decides to shine. The less than a buck LED lamps cost all of a quarter or so a watt even if you only use them an hour a day, and they beat the cost of solar even if you only use them a couple minutes a day. BTW, this huge advantage for "conservation energy" over solar extends to other power uses- I did the numbers on my biomass stove and it's conserving energy for far less than the cost of a $100,000+ solar array, and reduces greenhouse gasses more too! Actually had the owner of one of those $100,000+ solar arrays unfriend me when I revealed that "inconvenient truth"!
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The most cost effective way to save energy and $$$ is by efficiency improvements- For example, thanks to a power company subsidy, I bought a 10 pack of 100 watt equivalent LED bulbs for less than $10 this spring. Each bulb consumes but 15 watts, for a savings of 85 watts apiece and 850 watts or darn near a kilowatt for the carton of ten. So while solar costs about $3 and change a watt, I can get the same effect with those LED bulbs for around a penny a watt!
All correct, but unfortunately the big users of electricity are things like water heaters, heat pumps, and refrigerators, and LEDs don't help those.
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All correct, but unfortunately the big users of electricity are things like water heaters, heat pumps, and refrigerators, and LEDs don't help those.
And hair dryers, and electric dryers, and electric stoves. "Heating" widgets, and not "lighting" widgets, are where the huge loads are.
Although I suppose anything helps.
Lannis
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Things like hair dryers and clothes dryers aren't a major part of the monthly total because they're so intermittent. Heat pumps, water heaters, and refrigerators probably contribute the most to the bill, assuming you have those electric devices.
I bought a "Kill-A-Watt" meter. It's very interesting to put it in kW-h mode and plug something like a computer or refrigerator into it. It then totals killowatt-hours until you unplug the load. For example my shop computer uses 2 killowatt hours per day, or about 20 cents per day, or $6/month on the bill. I was surprised to find out that my old 1955 refrigerator uses less than 1/2 of the energy per month as our new one. You're always hearing how efficient new refrigerators are compared to old ones, but in this case it's just hype.
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Things like hair dryers and clothes dryers aren't a major part of the monthly total because they're so intermittent.
BWAHAHAHAHahahaha .... In YOUR house maybe .... (sob) ...... :thewife:
Lannis
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BWAHAHAHAHahahaha .... In YOUR house maybe .... (sob) ...... :thewife:
Ha, you made me chuckle. There's very little forced air hair drying around here, and only slightly more electric clothes drying. Except in pollen season, the clothes get hung outside to dry.
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Some information on Sunrun:
https://www.consumeraffairs.com/solar-energy/sunrun.html
Ouch
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I bought a "Kill-A-Watt" meter. It's very interesting to put it in kW-h mode and plug something like a computer or refrigerator into it. It then totals killowatt-hours until you unplug the load. For example my shop computer uses 2 killowatt hours per day, or about 20 cents per day, or $6/month on the bill. I was surprised to find out that my old 1955 refrigerator uses less than 1/2 of the energy per month as our new one. You're always hearing how efficient new refrigerators are compared to old ones, but in this case it's just hype.
Before we began the PV project I unearthed the KillaWatt meter and we did a complete inventory. Some real surprises. The fridge uses less than 1kWh daily because it's intermittent: kicks on three or four times per hour (and probably less frequently in the winter). Same for the 230v electric water heater, which appears to pull .75 kWh/day (the meter only measures 120v loads, so 230v appliances have to be guesstimated by subtracting the 120v loads from the known household total). Left plugged in but not turned on, the cable box pulls as much power as the fridge; if left on, the desktop computer/printer/monitor combo pulls 3.4 kWh/day. By putting all the electronics on switched power strips, we worked our daily load down to about 10.5 kWh/day, which theoretically could be covered by a 1.8 kW PV array. So our 2.6 kW system gives us good flexibility.
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Before we began the PV project I unearthed the KillaWatt meter and we did a complete inventory. Some real surprises.
Yes, those meters are inexpensive and really do show some surprising things.
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I've never understood the value of putting in a solar system without a battery bank. I suppose if you're home all day using appliances it would be helpful, but as others have noted here, peak electrical usage is mostly at night, when people are home watching TV, making dinner, taking showers and washing clothes. I'd want to generate my electric capacity during peak sunlight, store it in batteries and use that stored energy when the rates go up at night.
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I'd want to generate my electric capacity during peak sunlight, store it in batteries and use that stored energy when the rates go up at night.
Where do rates go up at night? Most electric use is daytime, when businesses are open -- especially summer afternoons and early evenings when air conditioning loads are highest. Heavy demand = highest prices. Example: PG&E. Summer off-peak is 9:30pm to 8:30am, 21c/kWh. Peak is during the business day: .24c morning and evening, .27c noon to 6pm. Winter off-peak is 20c 9:30pm to 8:30am, peak is 22c 8:30am to 9:30pm.
Similarly, Xcel has these time-of-use rates:
Summer Energy Charge:
On-Peak = $0.19 per kWh (afternoons)
Shoulder = $0.13 per kWh (morning)
Off-Peak = $0.08 per kWh (late night)
Winter Energy Charge:
On-Peak = $0.14 per kWh
Shoulder = $0.10 per kWh
Off-Peak = $0.08 per kWh
So: Use solar to prevent paying peak rates, draw power as necessary during the cheap hours.
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Wow, we're not much over 10 cents per kWh here.
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Where do rates go up at night? Most electric use is daytime, when businesses are open -- especially summer afternoons and early evenings when air conditioning loads are highest. Heavy demand = highest prices. Example: PG&E. Summer off-peak is 9:30pm to 8:30am, 21c/kWh. Peak is during the business day: .24c morning and evening, .27c noon to 6pm. Winter off-peak is 20c 9:30pm to 8:30am, peak is 22c 8:30am to 9:30pm.
You may be right, I might have misread my bill that shows different day/evening rates. This would be NYSEG in NY state.
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A really interesting thread.
Here in NZ a lot of our power is hydro electric and generation and transmission was government owned. A former government, in it's infinite wisdom, split of the generating capacity and made it private ownership. However, some generating companies have a lot of hydro while others have been saddled with coal/gas etc which has a lot higher generating costs, giving large variations in cost. The transmission lines are owned by other companies and the retailing by yet other companies. However, some generating companies have their own retail sides as well.
Consumers are now being screwed at every turn, and now usage has got to the point where more generation is on the point of being needed. With our consent laws being an absolute nightmare, no generating company wants to go to the expense and hassle to put in more generating capacity. If people put in solar the buy-back for electricity has dropped out of sight and the lines companies have actually upped the lines charges if you put solar in.
As I see it, we are heading for the perfect storm. Electric cars will become more popular thus creating more demand, and every company involved in the generation and distribution of electricity business are in to greed and burying their heads in the sand. They will need home generation if they want to avoid the cap. ex. of building new generating plants.
As has been said before, battery storage is the sticking point. Already though, the Tesla Powestore 2 is at 125-14 kw, depending on who is stating the capacity.
If they can get battery storage sorted, I would be looking at going off-grid if I could afford the initial outlay.
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We put a white metal roof on our small house (1300sf), our walls are 6" thick (w/R19 insulation), and belong to an electrical co-op. Those measures have kept our electric bill at about $100/month. We have a couple of generators for outages: an 8kw diesel for the house and a 2.5kw gas for our Kegerator...
(http://image.ibb.co/jq1725/IMG_0839.jpg)
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I've never understood the value of putting in a solar system without a battery bank. I suppose if you're home all day using appliances it would be helpful, but as others have noted here, peak electrical usage is mostly at night, when people are home watching TV, making dinner, taking showers and washing clothes. I'd want to generate my electric capacity during peak sunlight, store it in batteries and use that stored energy when the rates go up at night.
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I did it because when I'm not home during the day, the system is putting credits back on the grid. Then, I reuse those same credits during the night when we are home. So far, I'm averaging around $4 per day for electricity. Before going solar, it was around $15 per day in the heat of summer. For July alone, my electric bill will be $148. It would have been $452. Roughly a 68% offset. I can dig that savings.
Batteries are phase 2. Phase 1 was getting most of the solar panels installed, and trying to pay them off in 5 years. Phase 2 would be the addition of more panels to complete the offset and enough batteries to power the house for 24 straight hours of darkness. That should be enough batteries to cover any clouds, rainy days, etc that may keep everything from charging correctly. The ultimate goal is to go 100% off-grid. Time will tell.
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FBI investigates Arizona utility
APS may have used ratepayer funds to help elect anti-solar commissioners
Former commission chairman indicted for accepting bribe
https://www.ecowatch.com/fbi-arizona-public-2467980589.html?xrs=RebelMouse_fb&ts=1501689935
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For me solar was a no brainer here in Southern California. With the costs for electricity going up yearly because of the global warming initiative and the incentives from federal and state we put solar in almost 2 years ago. My electric bill is from $1 to $8 a month and last year we got a rebate check for a couple hundred from the electric company for the excess we put back into the grid. In addition to that we charge our Chevrolet Volt at no cost. Now before you all think I'm one of those crazy California liberals, I only live here because my kids are here and I decided to play Californias silly game as long as I'm here.
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HOA rules prevent line drying....apparentl y the neighbors don't care for the smell.
--- anyone explain to HOA that you are supposed to wash the garments before hanging them out to dry? (sarcasm)
That would actually P me off to be told I can't use my free, environmentally friendly clothes line.
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Now before you all think I'm one of those crazy California liberals, I only live here because my kids are here and I decided to play Californias silly game as long as I'm here.
That's funny, nothing about what you described struck me as liberal or conservative. It just sounds smart.
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That's funny, nothing about what you described struck me as liberal or conservative. It just sounds smart.
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I guess it looks smart but this state forces you into going this direction or paying very high electric and fuel prices. I certainly wouldn't have gone that direction in another state.
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That's funny, nothing about what you described struck me as liberal or conservative. It just sounds smart.
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Yep. What he said. Smart. I personally think that if you own your home and plan to stay in it, you should go solar. One of the main deciding factors for me to jump in this year was the because of the 30% tax rebate that will be shrinking after this year before finally being phased out.
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Nice plan Luap. Have you considered a small windmill as well? Not sure about your area, but, in NM when it is cloudy it is usually windy.
One of the guys who lived in the mountains near us had quite a setup. He built an electric car as well (from a 70's Corvette). Fuel cell. He made his own hydrogen using solar electric. Also had three windmills. Water heat was also solar. FWIW, he was also a researcher at Sandia Labs when they were doing a ton of alternative energy research. His house was designed around solar heating, complete with thermostat controlled opening louvers along the ceiling and floors. He got an award for the design from somewhere back in the 80's.
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I am in sunny New Mexico. Have no experience with solar power myself, but my bartender had a system installed on his house. He has refrigerated air on all summer (not a swamp cooler), and still gets a check every month from the power company. Hasn't had to pay an electric bill in several years.
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Charlie B: That would probably be Doug Balcomb, an architect who pioneered passive-solar buildings. Great guy. I had the privilege of working with him.
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Nice plan Luap. Have you considered a small windmill as well? Not sure about your area, but, in NM when it is cloudy it is usually windy.
One of the guys who lived in the mountains near us had quite a setup. He built an electric car as well (from a 70's Corvette). Fuel cell. He made his own hydrogen using solar electric. Also had three windmills. Water heat was also solar. FWIW, he was also a researcher at Sandia Labs when they were doing a ton of alternative energy research. His house was designed around solar heating, complete with thermostat controlled opening louvers along the ceiling and floors. He got an award for the design from somewhere back in the 80's.
Yes, I have for sure thought about adding a 25-30% wind power offset to complete the project. But, the technology around here does not quite match the price yet, and the windmills I've read about require a lot of maintenance. It might be right in 5 years or so though.