Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: tris on June 28, 2017, 07:58:22 AM
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My bike is on its second dash and this one has just started to play up
If I turn the ignition on but don't start it everything lights up and cycles just as it should
If I lightly tap the dash with my finger or start the bike (vibration) the LCD goes dark and stays that way until I stop the bike it cools down and the cycle is repeated
So essentially it feels like an internal wiring/dry joint/PCB problem
However, I've been in conversation with Carmo in Holland and have learnt the following. Firstly, they have not been able to find the source of a replacement LCD so if its a faulty LCD I'm dead in the water
a) They can test the dash as it stands and if its not faulty they will charge me 57.50 Euro + VAT
b) If its a faulty PCB they can fix the PCB for 295 Euro +VAT
c) If its dead they can transfer my immobilisation codes and mileage to a replacement dash I would need to source. (I think I'd still need to pay the 57 Euro though)
So here's the dilemma
Any replacement dash is likely to have the some issues now or later so do I spend the 300+ Euro on repairing my dash or source a replacement where the LCD could fail a week later any way
Its really annoying me as this small part of the bike could render it virtually valueless :angry: :angry:
Cutting my losses and breaking the bike for parts has crossed my mind!!
Any thoughts Team??
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That's the issue I have with the "new" bikes. More and more dodgy Italian electronics.. some of which will shut you down in BF Utah. At night. In the rain. :evil: :smiley: I guess I'm officially part of the problem, now. I'll stick with a bike I can fix..
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I've talked about my dash problems ad nauseam but just a bit more.
My original dash went bad, I sent it to a guy who thought he might be able to fix it. He was wrong.
I bought a replacement dash, it was fine except the speedometer read in kilometers. I stuck a bicycle speedometer on the top triple clamp and ran it that way for a while and all was good. Until one of the turn signals began to indicate a bulb out (fast flashing) although no bulbs were out.
I bought a third dash off ebay which had just a few miles on it. Within 2 days it also began to exhibit the fast flash on a turn signal. I took this dash and sent it off to Carmo where they determined a circuit had been damaged by moisture. They fixed it for whatever price they were getting at the time and applied a double layer of waterproofing.
This was a number of years ago and I have stopped thinking about my dash as I haven't had a problem since.
If you get another dash, be sure to just go ahead and get the circuit board waterproofed and I believe you'll be fine. There is a thread on here somewhere that talks about this with the Griso dash and possibly using a local cell phone repair to get the job done. I don't believe the parts themselves are of poor quality, just susceptible to moisture damage.
However once that LCD goes bad you are pretty much out of luck.
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I went thru a similar situation. My LCD went blank/dark after 3-4 years of ownership, but only did that one time, until a few yeears later, the LCD totally failed at about 60,000 miles. I sent it to Carmo, who also told me that they had no source for a replacement LCD panel. Ended up buying a B11 panel from Jas67, which has worked ok for the past 4-5kmiles, aside from no neutral lite and no right turn indicator on the dash. Small issues compared to having no LCD panel, and might be the result of wiring differences between the 12S and B11 (?)
Moto Guzzi should step up to the plate on this issue. It's foolish on their part to leave customers dangling, and you know full well they are aware of the problem.
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Thanks for your thoughts everyone.
Since my LCD comes on until disturbed (tapped or engine started) I've pretty much decided to send my dash to Carmo over the winter
At least mine to some extent is a known entity where a replacement would not be!!
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Moto Guzzi should step up to the plate on this issue. It's foolish on their part to leave customers dangling, and you know full well they are aware of the problem.
I loved my B11. I've often thought of buying another. But I just won't risk it. If MG would step up and fix the problem there would be another in my garage.
Mike
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If you get another dash, be sure to just go ahead and get the circuit board waterproofed and I believe you'll be fine. There is a thread on here somewhere that talks about this with the Griso dash and possibly using a local cell phone repair to get the job done. I don't believe the parts themselves are of poor quality, just susceptible to moisture damage.
That would be an investigation I conducted and wrote about, here: http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=84968.0 (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=84968.0), and another post where I recommended a cell phone repair shop, since my local one said it would have been happy to coat my board for $25.
What I recommend is that EVERYONE take out their printed circuit board from any of the CARC bikes, and coat it (or get it coated) with a conformal coating, as I described doing for the Griso in the thread just cited. The Breva board is very similar electronically, but I believe it is EASIER to dismantle. If you wait until you have a failure you have waited too long.
As for Carmo, I haven't seen any negative reports on their work. I'm surprised they said they would reset the mileage on a supplied board, since that means they have cracked the checksum code, and since I suppose resetting might be illegal. But if they'll do it, why worry?
I haven't seen any reports of failures of coated boards, and mine continues to work fine. (My second moisture-proofing system, a desiccating breather, continues to be a pain to maintain.)
Good luck.
Moto
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They only copy the mileage across and the codes but you have to give them proof of ownership, registration details and something else I can't remember.
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Our 06 seemed to have a good dash (knock wood for the guy who bought it from me at 53,000 miles.) One thing I did that may or may not have helped was that I put a coat of wax over the seams of our dash at 4500 miles (what it had when we purchased from Speakers).
That bike went through some crazy rain storms without problems. I often wondered if my GIVI A76(?) fairing helped a bit. It fit tightly around the headlight ring...maybe kept some of the rain from getting to the dash?
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If Carmo are able to fix my dash they will send it back with 2 coats of conformal coating so that should take care of that issue
The other issue though is that Carmo can't find a sources for the LCD
I think that we need to engage to might of the Guzzi population across the world (plus the Aprilia lads & lasses) to track the LCD down.
With that nailed and with Carmo I recon we'd be sorted.
Does that sound like a good idea?
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If Carmo are able to fix my dash they will send it back with 2 coats of conformal coating so that should take care of that issue
The other issue though is that Carmo can't find a sources for the LCD
I think that we need to engage to might of the Guzzi population across the world (plus the Aprilia lads & lasses) to track the LCD down.
With that nailed and with Carmo I recon we'd be sorted.
Does that sound like a good idea?
Sure. I suggest you join apriliaforum.com and send a PM to user techrat1, featured in my previously cited post . If he still doesn't know the identity of the LCD, you could post the question there.
But a better solution than $300+ dollar repairs by Carmo is preventive coating by the owner, for much less money.
Moto
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Oops!! This discussion has definitely cooled my thoughts about looking for an 1100 Breva. I like my current R1200R but would like to get back into the Guzzi ranks. The Breva is the closest thing to my Beemer and I've sort of been looking for one to buy and set up for my riding needs. But now -- I don't know.
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My thoughts .....
Moto Guzzi should contact the dashboard manufacturer (Digitek S.p.A.) and work out a deal where we could buy replacement dashboards at manufacturer's cost direct from them, with proof of ownership and proof of failure.
Better yet, Guzzi should do a 'Ducati gas tank' thing, and supply a new dash out of warranty when one fails. There's too much stuff on these bikes that depends on a working dashboard. I would imagine failed turn signals could be considered a safety issue. And since the problem is so well-known among the Guzzi community, it has to negatively affect the sales of used machines.
Found this older article that may be of interest.
http://www.mta.it/flex/cm/pages/ServeBLOB.php/L/EN/IDPagina/177
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I agree with you but given MGs track record I hazard guess that the probability of that happening is around about ZERO
Anyway, I'll follow up Moto's suggestion and contact the lads on the Aprilia forum and see what they know
..... and Chuck - I completely understand your concerns.
I deliberately avoided an 8V bike (I wasn't much worried what I bought) before I bought this bike but missed the scared screw and misty dash debacle.
Its a shame as its a fantastic bike to ride, but ownership is "coloured" by these issues
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I loved my B11. I've often thought of buying another. But I just won't risk it. If MG would step up and fix the problem there would be another in my garage.
Mike
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If Carmo are able to fix my dash they will send it back with 2 coats of conformal coating so that should take care of that issue
Do Carmo know not to coat the on-PCB air pressure sensor module? If they coat it, you should expect poor running as barometric pressure changes.
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Do Carmo know not to coat the on-PCB air pressure sensor module? If they coat it, you should expect poor running as barometric pressure changes.
Mine runs perfectly. I'm sure they are aware.
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I posted earlier on this as I am contemplating a B11 or Sport 1200. http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=90482.msg1428983#msg1428983 (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=90482.msg1428983#msg1428983)
Since then I have seen the Speedhut Products posted on Antiquar's G5 build thread and wondered if there was an interface that allowed the Guzzi sensors to "speak" to the Speedhut instruments? Would that be thru a CANBUS protocol?
I've always liked the symmetrical look of a large speedo and tach on a cycle dash. Antiquar even custom ordered a Guzzi eagle on the instrument faces.
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I saw a thread on one of the Aprillia forums somewhere, where they bought a generic canbus dash and tapped in to the feeds to the existing dash and then hid the original dash "inside the fairing"
Not a very elegant solution and difficult to hide the old dash on a naked bike like a B11
I was wondering what signals the B11 ECU uses that comes from the dash? Pressure and immobiliser are clear but what else as Moto says on the other thread is a bit of a lottery
If for example the ECU just sees the immobiliser as a simple yes/no or on/off I guess it might be possible to circumvent it but I have no real idea because as far as I can tell Canbus witchcraft!!
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I don't think a Canbus is employed, unlike the Cali 1400. However, there are multiple connections to the Dashboard (and ECU) which renders it rather difficult to try and emulate it's functions with some sort of knock up.
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Just how common are dash failures on the Breva 1100's?
Was it early years or all years?
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Just how common are dash failures on the Breva 1100's?
Was it early years or all years?
It's tough to say from this forum, but I would put money that they are all doomed. And specifically the B11 seems more susceptible than the Norge or Griso.
Years back when we had the first thread trying to count there seemed to be very few other models being reported and I get the impression there are way more Norges than B11's.
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Was it early years or all years?
Sorta the same thing. They were only manufactured for two years, 2005 & 2006 (not including the Breva 1200 Sport).
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Is the problem related to exposure to rain unprotected by a fairing/windscreen or storage outside in rain?
Or does it just happen from condensation related to temperature and humidity changes?
Just trying to figure out how to best protect my bike.
When this occurs, is the bike still usable or does it totally disable the ride?
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Is the problem related to exposure to rain unprotected by a fairing/windscreen or storage outside in rain?
Or does it just happen from condensation related to temperature and humidity changes?
Just trying to figure out how to best protect my bike.
When this occurs, is the bike still usable or does it totally disable the ride?
I fooled myself that it wasn't going to effect me. I rode in the rain sometimes sure, but I had a windshield in front of the cluster and it was stored inside and conditions weren't particularly humid.
But shortly after selling it to my little bro when it was around 4-5 years old the dash died.
My guess is condensation from temp changes were the biggest factor, but it's just a guess.
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Is the problem related to exposure to rain unprotected by a fairing/windscreen or storage outside in rain?
Or does it just happen from condensation related to temperature and humidity changes?
Just trying to figure out how to best protect my bike.
When this occurs, is the bike still usable or does it totally disable the ride?
I live in the desert and so rarely ride in the rain, at one point I bought a brand new dash which ended up having problems in less time than my original even though it had never been exposed to a direct dousing. Performing a waterproofing as Moto suggests is a good idea.
My dashes have failed in different ways, from the LCD going out to just the quick flashing indicating a burned out signal bulb. I'm not sure that anyone has experienced a failure which makes the bike unrideable, although I could be wrong.
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The problem is mostly condensation, I believe. And there is no way to seal the
dashes dash enclosures against moisture because of the need to expose the on-PCB pressure sensor to the atmosphere.
The Breva and Breva-like dashes fail more often than the Griso and Griso-like dashes because the volume of air inside a Breva dash is larger, resulting in more condensation when the temperature falls. More condensed water = more corrosion, faster failure. Characteristically, the water collects in the lower-left corner of the Breva dash's PCB because the bike rests on its side stand. Turn signal and other circuits in that area fail first.
On the other topic, the Breva and Griso dashes definitely have CAN Bus communication with the ECU. It would not be a simple matter of leaving a wire grounded or at 12 v to send the appropriate message. CAN Bus systems send digitally coded messages that other components listen for and interpret, like Ethernet packets or object-oriented program languages, if either of those are familiar.
Like KevM, I suspect all the dashes will fail, unless they are pre-emptively coated, a simple procedure anyone could perform. I don't know of any failures of dashes that have been coated.
Of course, environmental factors should affect how soon particular uncoated dashes fail.
Moto
P.S. On the CAN bus issue, here are the pin-outs of the Breva dash. "26 CAN L" and "27 CAN H" are the low and high signal
carriers of the CAN bus.
1 +KEY
2 COMAND RH INDICATOR
3 OIL SENSOR
4 BEAM LIGHTS IN
5 -
6 SELECT 1
7 SELECT 2
8 FUEL LEVEL SENSOR
9 AIR TEMPERATURE SENSOR
10 -
11 +BATTERY
12 COMAND LH INDICATOR
13 RESET INDICATORI/LED ANTITHEFT
14 HAZARD
15 LED ANTI THEFT (if connected)
16 SELECT 3
17 SENSOR GROUND
18 GENERAL GROUND
19 GENERAL GROUND
20 GENERAL GROUND
21 + BATTERY
22 + BATTERY
23 ACTIVATE RELAY BEAM LIGHTS
24 -
25 COMMAND HANDLE HEATER
26 CAN L
27 CAN H
28 K-LINE
29 -
30 ANTENNA 1
31 -
32 -
33 -
34 ACTIVATION INDICATOR REAR.RH
35 ACTIVATION INDICATOR FRONT.RH
36 ACTIVATION INDICATOR REAR.LH
37 ACTIVATION INDICATOR FRONT.LH
38 ACTIVATION HANDLE HEATER LH
39 ACTIVATION HANDLE HEATER RH
40 ANTENNA 2
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Interesting that they call it a CAN bus, but it only connects between the Dashboard and the ECU; no other devices are on the bus. Which ever way you look at it, it's going to be hard to replace the dashboard with some home made contraption.
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Oh yes, the dreaded B11 (and Norge) dash. Sorry, but no decent advice from me. Had faulty dashes on my B11 AND my Norge. Recently bought a used B11 and keep my fingers crossed. In my experience, nothing works (but a new and very expensive new dash :sad:). New Norge dashes however seem to cope better with our wet climate. According to a more technically skilled Guzzi friend, they seem to have dealt with the problem. (?)
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...New Norge dashes however seem to cope better with our wet climate. According to a more technically skilled Guzzi friend, they seem to have dealt with the problem. (?)
If the newer PCB's are factory-coated they should fluoresce under UV light. A pro-active owner might detect this when preparing to do the coating, or when installing a new replacement. UV flashlights cost $10.
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My current thoughts are
1) Send the dash to Carmo and hope that it is simply a dodgy connection on the dash/LCD that they can fix and then confromally coat the PCB
2) Continue to try and track down a replacement LCD that I can point them too should they find a dead LCD
3) Replace the dash in its entirety (which is a VERY LONG reach) by
a) Disable the immobiliser in the ECU. Some of the Ducatis run the same IAW 5AM ECUs as the B11 does and they have away of disabling the immobiliser
b) Clone the Pressure sensor. I found this link http://www.tempra.org/ttt/uploads/iaweng.pdf and at the bottom of page 21 it talks about the "manifold air pressure sensor"
The interesting thing about this is that the reader says it will show the signal voltage from the sensor plus min & max values.
It strikes me that if we can find a sensor (and we might be able to find out what is on the dash) that puts out an appropriate voltage we can con the ECU into believing it is still
seeing the dash
c) Find a splendid replacement Canbus dash and pick up all the other signals
The problem with 3 though is that its likely to cost more than the bike is worth thus leading me to
4) Scrap the bike for parts!!!
I think I might need to canabilise Kiwi-Roys sig of "Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders for 90 year" to
"Moto Guzzi - making CARC bike owners Canbus programmers since 2005"
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Do the later Norge and/or Sport 1200 dashboards be used as replacements on a Breva 1100?
I also noticed that the 2007 Breva dash had a different part number. We're these upgraded?
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My current thoughts are
1) Send the dash to Carmo and hope that it is simply a dodgy connection on the dash/LCD that they can fix and then confromally coat the PCB
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4) Scrap the bike for parts!!!
How about this instead:
5) Buy a brand new Breva dash reading in kilometers, for $312 from af1racing.com. Open it up, coat the board, and have a permanent fix. You could also swap the dash faceplate for the one marked in mph that you now have. (The mechanisms don't change; the upper limit is at the same 3 o'clock position on both versions of the dash, corresponding to 240 kph and 150 mph; in fact a version sold in the UK had both sets of markings.) Finally, you could switch the displayed units for the odometer (and presumably fuel economy) from kilometers to miles as described on page 21 of the Breva 1100 Owner's Manual. Presto, a brand new mph dash for $312, plus your labor and incidental expenses in converting/coating it.
For advice on getting the needles off the new instrument for the faceplate swap, see my previously-cited posting on the Griso dash.
Moto
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This might be worth a punt for someone in the USA
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2003-2009-Moto-Guzzi-Breva-1200-DASHBOARD-SPEEDOMETER-GAUGE-METER-TACH-PARTS/132174432865?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D43783%26meid%3D482e7e1373484af88f26d9cc750c89bd%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D322573266170
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As the owner of a 2006 Breva 1100 I worry about the longevity of my dash. It has always worked fine but these threads keep me worried. So, I contacted Carmo to see about the cost of disassembling and coating my fully functional dash. I was a bit surprised at the response. Here it is verbatim,
"We are able to open the dashboard and coat the PCB. But i would not recommend to open the dashboard without a “good†reason.
It is very hard to open and there is always chance that the cover will brake.
Â
So I will recommend to keep it this way until you have some real problems with your dashboard."
So that leads me to two questions,
1. Has anyone here ever had a functioning Breva 1100 dash disassembled and coated by Carmo or anyone else? If so, details, please.
2. Has anyone here disassembled a Breva dash, as opposed to the Norge or Griso, and is it that difficult? The Carmo caution that it is "very hard' and you chance breaking the cover gives me pause.
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So that leads me to two questions,
1. Has anyone here ever had a functioning Breva 1100 dash disassembled and coated by Carmo or anyone else? If so, details, please.
2. Has anyone here disassembled a Breva dash, as opposed to the Norge or Griso, and is it that difficult? The Carmo caution that it is "very hard' and you chance breaking the cover gives me pause.
These are great questions, and I only wish someone would mail me a dead Breva dash to disassemble.
Looking at photos and illustrations I've found online, it seems the Breva dash does not require the most scary part of the Griso disassembly procedure -- unsoldering the metal-coated fiberglass bridges between the main PCB and the instrument illumination (as I recall) and then resoldering them after the coating has been applied to the upper surface of the PCB.
I have wondered if Carmo doesn't want to coat dashboard PCBs because they don't want to dry up their profitable business (at $300 a pop) of fixing and coating broken dashes. Call me a cynic, but I don't know these people from Adam.
My impression has been that the Breva dash would be easier to disassemble than the Griso (which I did disassemble, coat, and return to service). But I don't know, since I've never had one to work on.
Moto
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Read this from Guzzitech - it might clarify things somewhat
http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/condensation-in-clocks-breva-griso.1892/
The attachment on the 1st response plus the later pictures are the key points
From my reading you need the brave pills when it comes to popping off the needles unless you punch holes in the dash and then you need the brave pills to do that!!
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Read this from Guzzitech - it might clarify things somewhat
http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/condensation-in-clocks-breva-griso.1892/
The attachment on the 1st response plus the later pictures are the key points
o
From my reading you need the brave pills when it comes to popping off the needles unless you punch holes in the dash and then you need the brave pills to do that!!
That was one of my most important guides when I disassembled my Griso's dash. I did drill holes my dash's faceplate and pulled off and reinstalled the single needle with no problems. In retrospect, it was not necessary to drill the holes, but I didn't see that at the time. (Once the needle is off, you can simply lift off the faceplate instead of drilling through it, and the needle does need to be removed.)
I now think there may have been no benefit in posting my procedures in detail on this site, and there may be little point in continuing to encourage others to protect their dashes proactively. Not even much point in asking for a broken Breva dash to do a demonstration on.
Seeing that Photobucket is now holding the photos on my procedural post hostage, this may be a good time to just let this go. Good luck to all. May you each find "a greater fool" to sell your CARC bike to, like a number of wise men before you.
Moto
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A little bitter, are we, Moto? Yeah.. me, too. I thought I was spending that time paying back to WG for all I've learned here. Those threads are worthless without those 863 pictures. :smiley:
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A little bitter, are we, Moto? Yeah.. me, too. I thought I was spending that time paying back to WG for all I've learned here. Those threads are worthless without those 863 pictures. :smiley:
Yes, I suppose so. It's disappointing to put so much time into something that in the end is what librarians call ephemera -- here today, gone tomorrow. I felt exactly the same sense of trying to pay something back to WG. (Well spoken, Chuck!) My contribution and efforts pale in comparison to yours and many others.
I guess it's best to just grin and bear it. And maybe to think about other ways to document and make available what we do.
Moto
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My contribution and efforts pale in comparison to yours and many others.
Not at all.
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I'm not so sure that what Photobucket is doing doesn't border on being illegal. So many people have used PB, thinking that their business model depended on advertising, and would continue to do so. I think what they're doing has such wide-spread effects that we'll see some sort of class action against them. I don't want to lead the charge, but I'm certainly happy to join in the conflict.
Much like a bank telling you that "oh, we're sorry ..... but the money you've deposited with us won't be accessible to you unless you pay us, say, $400 a year.
F them ...... my opinion!
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I'm not so sure all these theories of doom are accurate. My Breva is now 10 years old and the dash continues tow work flawlessly. It has been through lots of heavy rains, it bakes in the sun from time to time, and has sat through dozens and dozens of dewy nights, without issue.
Thats not to say that when I go to start it today it wont go tits up, but its gone good for decade, and I think and quietly hope it will likely continue. If it goes, I'll have to deal with it when it does, aside from that I'll just ride it, thats what it likes!
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Hey Chad, it must be the Chicago weather. I'm up in the northern burbs and my 10 year old B11 has also experienced no issues. But all the gloomy news of others misfortunes makes me nervous. Ever since this issue surfaced I've tried to avoid soaking the dash with rainy riding or washing, but some rain is unavoidable. I'd consider having carmo coat the board but since they advised to wait for a real failure, I guess that's what I'll do.
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And there's the rub.
I'm sure that Motos' recommendation for the conformal coating is completely sound, but it takes a brave man to take a functional set of clocks apart to do it.
I wasn't that brave but as soon as I saw misting took action to stop it by sealing up every potential leak point and improve the ventilation should the cause be condensation.
Since doing that I have had no misting
However, my LCD is not working now. Wether that is due to moisture or a broken connection I don't know.
So my clocks will be off to Carmo before long and if the LCD problem is fixable they'll come back conformably coated and working.