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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: waxi on July 04, 2017, 01:23:27 PM
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We were working on this issue with Beetle and Pete before without notable success. Since this may be more widespread problem I've decided to ask entire community for help on finding cause and solutions. How many of you recognize this issue (besides myself and Gunnar)?
To briefly describe the situation: When you drive downhill from a steep hill in first gear and low RPM's (near idle, no throttle) engine switches to "hard braking mode". After that, if you pull the clutch engine stalls. Sometimes it may even recover, but this depends on slope (how much engine needed to brake).
Please find two videos of the issue below. I have recorded them with my right hand - no touch to the throttle.
https://youtu.be/oAdCIQNtHxI (https://youtu.be/oAdCIQNtHxI)
https://youtu.be/Kt8iYN7L5zs (https://youtu.be/Kt8iYN7L5zs)
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What ideas have been explored before by Pete and Beetle? They are good w things, so I'm curious.
My initial idea is that with the engine braking going downhill, gravity is helping the engine run. When you pull in the clutch, suddenly the engine has to run on it's own. Perhaps the rpms are too high for the fuel delivered at idle (because engine braking artifically upped the rpm over normal idle).
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A couple of things to check, based on similar, but different problems, on other bikes.
Fuel supply: Check fuel pump output pressure and volume. Check voltage to fuel pump at idle. Check fuel filter for leaks/cracks. If it is part plastic replace it with an all metal filter. Look for hose leaks and cracks.
Injectors: Make sure that the connector from the ECU is fully seated on the injector. I had one that was not fully seated and it gave intermittent problems. Run some fuel injector thru the system, perhaps even a double dose. The injectors may be partially clogged and not letting enough fuel through at idle.
Keep us posted
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Hi guys, I have a V7ii 2015 Europe with the factory exhaust
Recently I uploaded the Beetle map and I’m very happy with my bike, I should say extremely happy (thank you Mark).
Never had the situation waxi describes (downhill stalling), on my next ride I will try to do a test exactly like the waxi’s video and I will inform you.
But if I see correct in the video, at the time you pull the clutch the rpm is bellow idle, or your idle is to low, I cannot read your rpm indicator clearly.
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Not sure if I can compare it, but my car has had a similar (if not exact) problem due to a leak in one of the vacuum hoses.
Apologies if i'm not helping with this.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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is yours a 5 speed like we got here in 2015 or is it one of the first 6 speeds. I know they intro differently in some markets.
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To Vagrant
If you ask me,is 2015 Europe V7ii six speed
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Clutch pulled in causing the engine to die? Check your crank end play.
If that was all well before mapping then adjust the idle mixture number 5 one way, try it. Then 5 the opposite way from where you started and see how that is. This is most likely helpfull, to trim the idle after the O2 is shut off.
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To Vagrant
If you ask me,is 2015 Europe V7ii six speed
so it has a 6 speed transmission?
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Steve, there's no trim adjustment on the MIU G3. Waxi had this issue before he remapped it, and I have not been able to fix it. I'm completely stumped. It doesn't do it when rolling on level ground either, only downhill. I could not reproduce it on Pete's Racer.
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I too am baffled and unfortunately, with the bike half a world away, there isn't a lot either I or Mark can do, much though we'd love to.
We were discussing this very issue when he was in Canberra last week for work. The only things I could think of were that the engine is going to be pumping harder on the over-run in downhill situations and perhaps the crummy stepper motor in the MUIG has a conniption when the clutch is whipped in as you come to a standstill but there again if that were the case you'd expect then all to do it. Not just one or two. The only other thing my peanut brain could come up with was that maybe it's an actual physical issue of some sort with the MUIG3 unit? They're coming up on the Bay of Fleas nowadays, as long as they are all interchangeable, (And I don't know whether they are?) it might be worth picking up another one, swapping it out and reprogramming it to see if the issue goes away.
Sorry. Not much help. :sad:
Pete
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Well, how about cleaning out stepper, tried that yet?
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I will just express my thought as electronics guy.
Bypass the clutch switch, bypass the side stand switch, bypass the heel sensor, then test it.
Working many years in marine electronics, the various sensors are producing a lot of problems.
In my opinion heel sensor is the most possible cause.
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Mark asked me about this during the last year but I was never able to make it happen.
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I'm interested in the engine vacuum during the sequence.
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What ideas have been explored before by Pete and Beetle? They are good w things, so I'm curious.
Well, we have ruled out idle stepper because on level ground it runs ok. We have also tried to lift idle a bit - no success.
Fuel supply: Check fuel pump output pressure and volume. Check voltage to fuel pump at idle. Check fuel filter for leaks/cracks. If it is part plastic replace it with an all metal filter. Look for hose leaks and cracks.
Injectors: Make sure that the connector from the ECU is fully seated on the injector. I had one that was not fully seated and it gave intermittent problems. Run some fuel injector thru the system, perhaps even a double dose. The injectors may be partially clogged and not letting enough fuel through at idle.
Please note that otherwise bike runs perfect. Problem is only in situations like on the video.
so it has a 6 speed transmission?
Every V7 II has 6-speed.
Well, how about cleaning out stepper, tried that yet?
No I didn't and if I'm honest I really don't know how to. But this leads me to the same conclusion... why it runs ok on leven ground? I am running latest Beetle map and except of this problem bike runs perfect. It is very annoying, because we have quite some hills around.
Bypass the clutch switch, bypass the side stand switch, bypass the heel sensor, then test it. In my opinion heel sensor is the most possible cause.
What is heel sensor? Do you mean tip-over sensor? It doesn't have one.
Mark asked me about this during the last year but I was never able to make it happen.
:thumb: Gunnar has the same issue and I think also someone else here on WG.
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Since you're not going very fast anyway, have you popped the tranny into neutral as you coast downhill to see what happens then? If you did that you could try to rev the motor too and see what happens while your coasting. Maybe your idle setting is too low.
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We've already tried increasing the idle without success.
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Is there enough fuel in the tank? I don't know where the pump is located on this model but I have seen my nephews Subaru burn out a fuel pump because he ran it a bit low then parked up on a road with a lot of camber. Pump uncovered, no start, burnt out pump. Could the pump be uncovered during this maneuver. Because with the throttle shut but rpm up a bit it will be scheduling zero fuel.
Just asking the simple questions, not trying to be smart.
Is there any Idle Air Control system on these bikes? One of our cars has had this problem which was traced to the command and control of the IAC valve. There was a switch in the clutch pedal would you believe that when pushed in, would command the IAC and the EFI to put in some fuel and air pronto.
Kev.
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My V7II Special is stock standard so I'll try the same test and report back in a day or two.
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It happens with every map I've tried so far. Original map, new updated map from Guzzi last year, loads of maps from Beetle, original exhaust and airfilter, K&N airfilter and original exhaust, K&N and megaphone exhaust. As the engine tends to race as well as stall at times, Beetle suggested last year that it gets too much fuel and then drowns, this does make sense to me as well. Sometimes it will also be slow at starting up after a stall or actually race up a bit right after restart. I manage with the workaround of no engine braking in first gear down a steep hill by just keeping the clutch pulled or I put the bike in neutral and use the excellent brakes that the bike comes with. Or I just put it in second gear and go faster :wink:
I asked the dealer about the issue last year, they told me it was the mapping and could not help me as I didn't have the orignial pipes on the bike, I think they were wrong and I don't use them anymore. The bike is now out of warranty anyway.
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Maybe try some colder plugs.
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Quote from: redhawk47 on July 04, 2017, 01:06:32 PM
Fuel supply: Check fuel pump output pressure and volume. Check voltage to fuel pump at idle. Check fuel filter for leaks/cracks. If it is part plastic replace it with an all metal filter. Look for hose leaks and cracks.
Injectors: Make sure that the connector from the ECU is fully seated on the injector. I had one that was not fully seated and it gave intermittent problems. Run some fuel injector thru the system, perhaps even a double dose. The injectors may be partially clogged and not letting enough fuel through at idle.
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Please note that otherwise bike runs perfect. Problem is only in situations like on the video.
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I had a stalling problem on my BMW F800GS that was similar to yours. It ran fine otherwise. The dealer tried a lot of fixes. None worked until they changed the fuel pump.
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Quote from: redhawk47 on July 04, 2017, 01:06:32 PM
Fuel supply: Check fuel pump output pressure and volume. Check voltage to fuel pump at idle. Check fuel filter for leaks/cracks. If it is part plastic replace it with an all metal filter. Look for hose leaks and cracks.
Injectors: Make sure that the connector from the ECU is fully seated on the injector. I had one that was not fully seated and it gave intermittent problems. Run some fuel injector thru the system, perhaps even a double dose. The injectors may be partially clogged and not letting enough fuel through at idle.
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Please note that otherwise bike runs perfect. Problem is only in situations like on the video.
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I had a stalling problem on my BMW F800GS that was similar to yours. It ran fine otherwise. The dealer tried a lot of fixes. None worked until they changed the fuel pump.
ya, I am in the same boat thinking pointing @ the fuel pump/assembly not working properly...
if the map isn't the problem and we got proper compression within the engine, beside sensors malfunctioning, fuel supply is usually the culprit...
Didn't happen to my bike but had a similar issue at my old Honda Civic....and you can't get anymore simple than the old 89~92 Honda civic...
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If the engine dies when the clutch is pulled it could be an indication of a thrust bearing problem. if the thrust bearings are not doing their job, the crank gets pushed forward making the engine die.
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If the engine dies when the clutch is pulled it could be an indication of a thrust bearing problem. if the thrust bearings are not doing their job, the crank gets pushed forward making the engine die.
Please, don't call that evil!
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If the engine dies when the clutch is pulled it could be an indication of a thrust bearing problem. if the thrust bearings are not doing their job, the crank gets pushed forward making the engine die.
That's what I was getting at. if that crank is loose enough in there it could slide forward enough to bind.
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That's what I was getting at. if that crank is loose enough in there it could slide forward enough to bind.
Yes, but if that was the problem he'd be loosing his clutch at a rapid rate and would be adjusting it every few days at most. Also the problem would manifest itself at all times, not just on downhill stops.
I'm still leaning towards an actual *Physical* problem with the MUIG3 although what exactly I have absolutely no idea.
Pete
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I still like my idea of a throttle/butterfly issue with the MIU G3. Some free play in the linkage causing the butterfly to close enough to stall when coasting downhill. Yes, I'm crazier than a coconut.
:violent1:
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Thats the sort of thing I was thinking when I said 'Physical' issue. The shitty plastic cam wheel is a known issue. Perhaps the butterfly spindle bushes are made of similar crappy materials? The extra vacuum when running downhill on the over-run might be pulling the butterfly to one side, or more open, or more closed? Who knows? Its obviously a rare occurrence but that doesn't make it any less annoying for those who are suffering from it.
Pete
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Well, the MIU G3 is a low cost unit.
To confirm you would need to pull either the air box or throttle body (whichever is easier I suppose) off to see if the butterfly was a little loose on the linkage.
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My V7II Special is stock standard so I'll try the same test and report back in a day or two.
In case it's useful I tested my bike to see if it does it. First time the bike was relatively cold after about 5 minutes running time. No issues.
Hearing your bike cool down in the video I thought I'd try it hot. It actually faltered for a couple of seconds the first time but subsequent tries I couldn't replicate it.
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Well, the MIU G3 is a low cost unit.
To confirm you would need to pull either the air box or throttle body (whichever is easier I suppose) off to see if the butterfly was a little loose on the linkage.
Ok, if I check this, is there something I can do? Isn't ECU unserviceable?
Actually... are there any upgrades available for MIUG3?
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I still like my idea of a throttle/butterfly issue with the MIU G3. Some free play in the linkage causing the butterfly to close enough to stall when coasting downhill. Yes, I'm crazier than a coconut.
:violent1:
Would this explain the overfuelling?
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Smarter heads than me have been over this but I'd like to know... You indicate that the bike stalls when going downhill when you pull the clutch. Pete's take on it as a "physical" thing makes me think if you apply this test. When pointing downhill there is a deceleration on the bike and it is also pitched nose down if you will. One of these is causing you some grief, to eliminate the pitching issue and only exposing the bike to deceleration, try taking her up to a decent speed with no one behind you and pull the clutch in at say 100 kph, and brake HARD with the throttle closed fully. If the problem goes way you'll know it's a nose down pitch issue and not a deceleration issue. If not, then work on the opposite assumption. I'll ring Roper now and chat.
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Two more tests I'd like an answer to. As you're rolling down the dreaded hill, instead of pulling in the clutch, pop it into neutral and eliminate the possibility of it being a micro switch on the clutch cut out, or piss the switch off as another bloke said earlier. Here's the crunch though, start your bike with the rear wheel on a scissor lift and while running, raise the wheel a couple of feet upwards. I'd like to know if the engine cuts out as a result of pitching forward without a deceleration. Trouble is you have more than one unknown in the same equation, you have to devise a test to check each possibility in isolation. For heaven's sake though, don't starve the poor bastard of oil with it's ass in the air...
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I will just express my thought as electronics guy.
Bypass the clutch switch, bypass the side stand switch, bypass the heel sensor, then test it.
Working many years in marine electronics, the various sensors are producing a lot of problems.
In my opinion heel sensor is the most possible cause.
I like that approach..Only trouble is, if it was the heel sensor, it would cut out irrespective of the clutch status, unless you're suggesting that the engine HAS cut out but is milling over "dead" and stops when the drive is disconnected ?
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Ok, if I check this, is there something I can do? Isn't ECU unserviceable?
The TPS and MAP sensor are built in and are not serviceable. The mechanics? I don't know whether you may be able to adjust or repair it. I've not had one in my hands to know.
Actually... are there any upgrades available for MIUG3?
No.
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Would this explain the overfuelling?
No.
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Mark, I'll stump up for that MUIG in Italy if you think it might help. The Rexxer thing for the 1400's is out of reach until I sell the V7 but I can probably scrape up the cash for a MUIG3 for us to rip to pieces.
Pete
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Don't worry about it. I just bought one.
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Two more tests I'd like an answer to. As you're rolling down the dreaded hill, instead of pulling in the clutch, pop it into neutral and eliminate the possibility of it being a micro switch on the clutch cut out, or piss the switch off as another bloke said earlier. Here's the crunch though, start your bike with the rear wheel on a scissor lift and while running, raise the wheel a couple of feet upwards. I'd like to know if the engine cuts out as a result of pitching forward without a deceleration. Trouble is you have more than one unknown in the same equation, you have to devise a test to check each possibility in isolation. For heaven's sake though, don't starve the poor bastard of oil with it's ass in the air...
The problem does not seem to be caused by the physical down hill movement, but the heavy engine braking in 1st gear while travelling down a steep hill.
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The problem does not seem to be caused by the physical down hill movement, but the heavy engine braking in 1st gear while travelling down a steep hill.
Yup. Which points to an air problem that the flutterby and stepper can't cope with for whatever reason.
Mark, let me know when it arrives, I'd love to be there when you pull it apart. If only to see how shitty it is. :D
Pete
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How about pulling the plugs directly after the engine stops to look for lean/rich?
I.e. roll downhill, pull clutch, and when the engine dies, then coast to roadside and take out the plugs.
Joe
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Huzo, thanks for ideas, but its a no-go. Every now and then I test my skills (and ABS) like that. It would already stall in one of the tests. It doesn't matter... you can do whatever you want with the bike when it is in neutral or with clutch pulled - it won't die.
Here is another idea (Beetle?): Can engine parameters somehow be logged with GuzziDiag? I can filp my laptop into backpack and go for a ride...
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With a computer in his backpack, he's not just riding, he's WORKING!
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Here is another idea (Beetle?): Can engine parameters somehow be logged with GuzziDiag? I can filp my laptop into backpack and go for a ride...
They sure can. In the GuzziDiag preferences, the last tab has a checkbox to log data as a .csv file.
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Ok, I went for a ride with GuzziDiag connected in my backpack. I've tried to select eight parameters which should be related with the issue (you tell me if I've forgot any).
In the picture below you can see the same scenario as in video in first post. From stop to very "hard engine braking" without clutch pulled. Nothing really useful. In green is my iteration with the throttle. If I would pulled it, it would definitely died.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/kYhusv/guzzi_v7_downhill_stall.png) (http://ibb.co/kYhusv)
In the second picture, you can see again throttle closed with my iterations in green. Is it interesting that at the end when I was twisting the throttle, injections still remained very short (row 496)? After that I pulled the clutch and engine died.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/nkw9QF/guzzi_v7_downhill_stall_dead.png) (http://ibb.co/nkw9QF)
Something useful or waste of time?
Matej
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W/O sounding snarky , why are you slowing down to a point where the engine is only turning 1,000 RPM's with the bike in gear and the clutch out ?
Dusty
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W/O sounding snarky , why are you slowing down to a point where the engine is only turning 1,000 RPM's with the bike in gear and the clutch out ?
Dusty
Maybe you shouldn't do it Dusty, but the fact is you SHOULD be able to. It indicates a problem.
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Just Curious Waxi, at the end of the run ,at the point the engine dies, without changing anything, will the engine start right back up when you push the starter button?
Paul B :boozing: :popcorn:
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Maybe you shouldn't do it Dusty, but the fact is you SHOULD be able to. It indicates a problem.
Well , does it in fact indicate a problem ? Maybe the computer is simply shutting of the Fuel or spark because the engine speed is too low .
Dusty
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So, in frames 492 to 497, you say you are twisting the throttle?
"Throttle" equals throttle position?
Those numbers look up and down, if you are twisting the throttle, I would think there should be a smooth, linear increase.
Forgive my ignorance this is cable operated throttle, right?
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Is the "speed" the actual speed of the bike?
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Do it again please. Remove 'engine temperature', 'air temperature', 'speed' and 'throttle equiv. stepper'. Add 'advance left' and 'advance right', 'intake pressure' and 'status idle control'.
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W/O sounding snarky , why are you slowing down to a point where the engine is only turning 1,000 RPM's with the bike in gear and the clutch out ?
That IS the problem. ECU (or whatever causes this) shouldn't let it run so slow i.e. brake so hard.
Just Curious Waxi, at the end of the run ,at the point the engine dies, without changing anything, will the engine start right back up when you push the starter button?
Yes it will. Without a problem.
So, in frames 492 to 497, you say you are twisting the throttle?
"Throttle" equals throttle position?
Those numbers look up and down, if you are twisting the throttle, I would think there should be a smooth, linear increase.
Forgive my ignorance this is cable operated throttle, right?
Yes, throttle equals throttle position. 1.00-1.20 = throttle closed. Numbers are right... you normally twist throttle back and forth. Don't know a Guzzi with RBW.
Is the "speed" the actual speed of the bike?
Correct. First gear, about idle RPM's.
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Well , does it in fact indicate a problem ? Maybe the computer is simply shutting of the Fuel or spark because the engine speed is too low .
Dusty
I'm lead to believe that they don't all do it Dusty. I couldn't just live with it, have to get it sorted.
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Here it goes Mark.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/hRdwpa/guzzi_v7_downhill_stall_dead_2.png) (http://ibb.co/hRdwpa)
photo and image hosting (http://imgbb.com/)
What are advance left and right? They are going crazy.
Entire table: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3cymqgfi0ev99nk/AACPXDu423aFWEZksGCrbXvAa?dl=0
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Sometimes it will also be slow at starting up after a stall or actually race up a bit right after restart.
I've been observant on this one... It does actually do as you said!
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Well, it doesn't tell me much, other than everything is working right up until it stalls. The advance left and right (ignition spark advance) values are interesting. Those 4 digit values are bogus. Anything less than 8 is bogus too, I reckon. I don't know why that's happening, but it may be telling.
Can you send me the entire log?
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Disconnect the clutch switch and test again. No need to log.
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Can you send me the entire log?
Find it in the same post.
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Disconnect the clutch switch and test again. No need to log.
Nothing.
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Nothing.
What? Same? Stalled?
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What? Same? Stalled?
Yes, the same. I was also pressing the switch while driving downhill... Not a slightes difference. Stalled.
Can we lift idle again just for test? For another 150 RPM?
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Hi waxi,
Does your model have ABS? The reason I ask as it seems odd that the engine goes into a different mode when coming down on compression, All bikes I've ridden were always linear until you stopped or killed it. :popcorn:
Regards, Paul B :boozing:
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Yes, the same. I was also pressing the switch while driving downhill... Not a slightes difference. Stalled.
Can we lift idle again just for test? For another 150 RPM?
Yep. Link sent.
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After some crazy days I finally tested +200 idle RPM's map. It does make it a bit better! Problem is still there, but it didn't died so fast.
Another idea: If there is something loose regarding the butterfly... What would happen If I artificially lift TPS by holding the throttle twisted a bit when resetting TPS with GuzziDiag?
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Don't do that, you don't have a calibrated hand. :laugh:
Try it. Interesting things might happen.
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Have you checked the fuel pump?
Several others, in addition to myself, had a similar problem with BMW F800GSs - stalling when off the throttle.
The solution was to replace the fuel pump. Cause was never found, to my knowledge. Perhaps low voltage when engine was at idle speed.
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Surely then it would occur on level ground as well? Not just downhill?
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I don't think it's a loose butterfly. An examination of an MIU unit makes me think it's unlikely. The butterfly is attached via screws which are punched to prevent movement. Even if one or both screws became loose, it would only move a tiny mount. Anything more than that would have an affect at cruise. The butterfly shaft does have slight lateral movement. The shaft has a screw and clip to hold the throttle cam, but if the screw was loose it only allows the cam to move sideways on the shaft.
(https://i11.servimg.com/u/f11/18/91/78/64/img_1311.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/18917864/627)
(https://i11.servimg.com/u/f11/18/91/78/64/img_1312.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/18917864/628)
(https://i11.servimg.com/u/f11/18/91/78/64/img_1310.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/18917864/626)