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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: oldbike54 on July 16, 2017, 12:59:49 PM
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An old acquaintance is considering putting a restaurant in a small town in Eastern Tennessee , despite my advice to simply give his money away :grin: Anyway , he contacted me this morning about travelling out and helping set it up . He is retired from the military , and does have some resources , although I wouldn't call him rich .
So here is the tentative plan , and the reason for my question . His schedule is to begin in early Sept, usually a time of decent weather , thinking a nice motorcycle trip across AR and TN , 3 days or so both directions , camp out , eat cheap , a week or so of 6 hr days working , mostly installing the kitchen in a design that actually works instead of some architects fantasy . We are already in the process of hunting down some used 40 LB friars , a working used vent hood , some tables and chairs, all of the stuff needed to set up a 100 person capacity operation . Thinking since he asked , and I do in fact have expertise , charging some travel expenses , and X dollars a day seems fair . In today's economy , what do you folks believe is fair , considering he is gonna have to pay someone to lend some real working knowledge to make this happen . Not trying get rich , but thinking fair is fair . Help me out here .
Thanks
Dusty
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Last company that paid me for that sort of thing gave me 25 cents a mile, $50 a day for meals, $75 for hotel and $15.50 an hour labor/driving. That was about 10 years ago.
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What you deserve and what he has in mind to pay you may be very different. Why not ask him what level of compensation for you he has available in his budget? I've seen some cases in which the guy in your position thinks he's made a very fair request, and the guy in your friend's position expected to get volunteer help.
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:1: w/Triple Jim. Best thing is a contract of work expected and pay. This could be the end of your "old acquaintance". I'm thinking that he wants help and not pay for the work.
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I explained that this was gonna cost him some money . Planned on camping on location , there is a rudimentary shower available , his wife has offered to feed me during the stay . Yes , he may be expecting some "free" labor , but at 63 I simply don't do that anymore . $15.50 an hour , plus maybe $200.00 travel seems reasonable , cheap even in today's economy . He mentioned the idea that since I motorcycle tour anyway ... problem is going East from here is not the norm , and while AR and TN are fine , if I was gonna take an 1,800 mile road trip it would be to the Rocky mountains .
Dusty
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How bout free fried food for life? :shocked:
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plan on $.55/mile for travel to and from. Charge a day rate for your labor, and add actual travel expenses on top of that. or, you can do a rate of $150/day plus mileage, allowing you to absorb your travel and spend whatever you want.
A 40-lb friar is awfully thin--I thought they ate well ;)
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/72/b1/a7/72b1a7ea943594ce9b9339a346c7b2bd--renaissance-costume-adult-costumes.jpg)
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You guys are cracking me up :laugh: Yeah , it should be fryer , not friar . Need a nap :grin:
Dusty
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His wife is going to feed you but no bed with hot shower? Nah that has to included. Does the guy not have a room at his house to offer you?
What is the going rate in his area for someone to put in a commercial kitchen? NY City vs small town TN is a huge difference. TN is a very long state. Can he buy your services locally and not have to pay someone for traveling hundreds of miles + room and board? I assume he has the tools if are on 2 wheels? Is some of this friendship and some of it business? If he can buy the services locally cheaper than bringing you out then why is he asking you to come out? Mixing friendship + business means that you might have to give up something or he might have to pay more. Or you split he difference.
I paid a guy to come from Wash DC to evaluate my house for a mold problem. I was quite sick and most mold remediators are basically junk yard guys. You really need an expert. I paid him his hourly rate to drive down from DC spend 3 hours at my house and then the drive back. We fed him. But this was a very highly trained professional in an area that not a lot of people are qualified to do the work. It was not cheap.
So you called him an acquaintance and not a friend. Why does he want your talents and not someone local? Are you going to take a hit in the wallet and give up work at home to drive there and back?
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His wife is going to feed you but no bed with hot shower? Nah that has to included. Does the guy not have a room at his house to offer you?
Good point... it would be pretty bad for someone to expect you go travel to his place and work, and not at least give you room and board as part of the deal.
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Tell him to get estimates for the work from at least 3 local contractors. Insist on a roof over your head, 3 squares a day, at his expense. Then look at the estimates he provides. If you can beat his estimates, and enjoy the work, not go broke on travel expenses, offer him a price. If not, 'c'est le vie.
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Great motorcycling country. Hope you can get to the Dragon (+ Hwy 28 to Highland) and Skyway.
Good luck on your venture.
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Don't forget a 1099, can't cheat Uncle Sammy.
Make sure you go home w/a grand after all expenses.
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And some Advil for all that riding you'll do!!
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$200 per 8hr day ($150 for 6hr day) including travel days, plus gas and tolls. If you are camping on location then they should supply meals. If you plan on using motels, then they should pay for lodging and you pay for your meals.
I think you are shortchanging yourself at $15 or so per hour.
Just my $.02
Actually that comes out to $25/hour which is still cheap.
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Salary or on the clock? What about liability if his used stuff doesn't work? Are you responsible for only the installation? What permits are required? Who signs off? You'll be liable.
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$200 a day plus expenses. Expenses include a decent motel (doesn't have to be a Hagan quality one) :evil: :smiley: fuel, food.
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I say go on a motorcycle trip in the opposite direction and don't get involved. Keep friendship and business well separated.
I am leaning towards this. But I'm a pessimist.
Yesterday I spoke with my brother about some business deals, and his quote was "you know it's a fair compromise if no one's happy."
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If he is a friend $200/day (that's actually the going London rate for a basic labourer off the boat here).
I've heard it so many time: retire, thinking a restaurant business would work when they know nothing about restaurants. Has he got a plan? Like, I'd like to clear 40k a year after expenses therefore I need to sell at least 50 burgers & fries each day?
Considering your friend may have a 50/50 chance losing his pension savings in it, I'd ride in the other direction
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Some interesting responses :laugh:
Dusty
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I agree with Trip Jim and Tom's early comments.
If this guy is any sort of friend, and you are thinking about getting money out of him, this could have the recipe for a disaster insofar as the friendship is concerned. Maybe this is not the case.
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The biggest premise to factor in. Can this guy cook? Going into business may seem like a good idea but staying in business is another requirement and has nothing to do with the first.
He might be watching too much tv on the Food Channel or Travel Channel. What is his idea for the theme of the restaurant? Burger & fries? Cafe? If he's going this way, I'd say that he's going down a deadend.
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I explained that this was gonna cost him some money . Planned on camping on location , there is a rudimentary shower available , his wife has offered to feed me during the stay . Yes , he may be expecting some "free" labor , but at 63 I simply don't do that anymore . $15.50 an hour , plus maybe $200.00 travel seems reasonable
Dusty
You're making it too complicated. Give him one price that includes labor, trip, gas, beer. Call him and see what he's thinking for your time & talent. Be up front with your price to show up.
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You're making it too complicated. Give him one price that includes labor, trip, gas, beer. Call him and see what he's thinking for your time & talent. Be up front with your price to show up.
Wish that was possible , but there are always unknowns . We aren't really friends, he only knows me by reputation from years ago , he wants to copy a theme we were doing 30 years ago . Trust me , I tried to talk him out of the idea , but he is insistent . Really just curious what some of you retired guys think is a fair daily price plus expenses for sharing hard earned expertise and some labor . I like the $200.00 a day rate , plus travel expenses . Don't mind living rough for the 2 weeks total , just need basic facilities and 3 meals a day , nothing fancy .
Dusty
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I would have expected "mates rates" to include grub and accommodation as a minimum.
The question then is wether you can or want to spend your money on the fuel (plus a couple of nights accommodation on the road) to get there
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It's a good topic for conversation Dusty, but you are obviously battling conflicting emotions or you wouldn't have floated the topic. Clearly you don't want to be seen to profit from a friendship, but you also have to think of yourself. If it was a good idea, the answer would present itself to you and instantly look attractive. I'd take the earlier advice and go for a ride in the opposite direction. No matter what you do, you will end up cheating either him, or yourself. Most likely the latter...The only way I see that you can keep your conscience intact, is to help him for free and only accept what he offers and leave the mental wrangling to him, you're the one doing the work.
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Bugger it! Hold him upside down and shake him till nothing but moths fall out of his pockets! :evil:
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I say go on a motorcycle trip in the opposite direction and don't get involved. Keep friendship and business well separated.
Best idea, so far! :thumb:
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I say go on a motorcycle trip in the opposite direction and don't get involved. Keep friendship and business well separated.
Another vote for this idea. :boozing: :boozing:
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Dusty,
If you go and help him out by listening to my advise and lose your posterior, you'll be mad at me and threaten to come to Texas and hiss on my turnips.
And if I tell you to stay home, you'll be mad at me for not making the extra money (maybe) and my turnips will have Okie hiss on them.
You know the food industry has the highest failure rate of any business. Yet, there is the old adage of, it is better to tried and failed than to not have tried. (That is what I thought when I married my 6th wife). It lasted 13 months.
Good luck in your decision,
Tex
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It's a good topic for conversation Dusty, but you are obviously battling conflicting emotions or you wouldn't have floated the topic. Clearly you don't want to be seen to profit from a friendship, but you also have to think of yourself. If it was a good idea, the answer would present itself to you and instantly look attractive. I'd take the earlier advice and go for a ride in the opposite direction. No matter what you do, you will end up cheating either him, or yourself. Most likely the latter...The only way I see that you can keep your conscience intact, is to help him for free and only accept what he offers and leave the mental wrangling to him, you're the one doing the work.
Ditto
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You guys do understand this is a business deal and not based on friendship , right ? Never said he is a friend , not exactly sure how anyone came to that conclusion . Honestly, what happens after I leave is not my problem , he asked me to come , and indicates he is willing to pay . I am only interested in some fair recompense W/O seeming greedy .
Dusty
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You guys do understand this is a business deal and not based on friendship , right ? Never said he is a friend , not exactly sure how anyone came to that conclusion . Honestly, what happens after I leave is not my problem , he asked me to come , and indicates he is willing to pay . I am only interested in some fair recompense W/O seeming greedy .
Dusty
I suspect that I am not alone in inferring that an "old acquaintance" would be a friend, as I have no one who in the former category who is not in the latter.
Good luck, however, in sorting out the answer to your basic question. The "friend" aspect notwithstanding, you got some good counsel here. Hope it works out for you.
Bill
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An old acquaintance is considering putting a restaurant in a small town in Eastern Tennessee
Thanks
Dusty
Out of personal interest, what small town is it? There are some pretty small towns over here that couldn't support a lemonade stand.
Mark
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I look at it this way, Dusty. You have to come up with a number that your time and knowledge are worth. Doesn't matter if it's a job in Tennessee or for the guy up the street. Your skills and knowledge are worth X, Multiply X by the number of days you need to and quote him a price in total lump sum. As was said, keep it simple and always give a discount for Benjamins! :evil:
Paul B :boozing:
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Without seeing the place and without a floor plan I think a lump sum is not a good idea. Dusty may be walking into a barn find of a job without a chance to see it beforehand.
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Sounds like this old acquaintance is thinking that you'll get some pleasure out of riding 3 days just for fun, which you were not planning to do...so time, money, aches and pains all have to be factored in.
If he's hiring you to come and do a job, it's entirely your decision on how to get there, whether it be flying, taking a Greyhound or riding with overnight stays. He'll have to give you some idea of what he's wiling to pay you...either $200 bucks for a plane ticket or $200 bucks for gas/lodging/food...
Once on site at the job, charge your acceptable rate (what you would charge for anyone)...enough that you are getting fairly compensated, and if you decide to ride to and fro, you've got enough pocket change to get you back home.
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East Tennessee? I assume he already knows that guinea hens and pork quarters are not an option as compensation....
Really though, to not overstate the obvious, if this is not going to be a familial/personal accommodation on your part - the number starts with your out-of-pocket expenses at 100%.
Having that number on a piece of paper as a rigid base upon which to build a bill goes a long way in clarifying your outlay and determining the remaining billable space to fill between what is fair compensation for you and what he can, or is willing, to afford.
Sometimes for me, the non-negotiable reimbursement number queers the deal from the get-go and keeps things from getting out of hand before they can even get rolling.
Gotta have that bed-rock number first.
Todd.
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Best idea, so far! :thumb:
I second that! :thumb:
Rick.
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Maybe a scouting trip before you did on the job? How you get there and how you live while doing the job is your concern. Contract first. 1) After that 1/3 down, 1/3 while working and 1/3 after the job is done or 2) he pays on a weekly/bi-weekly basis. No pay. No play. Liability for both parties for contract performance. The only problem with scenario 1 is if he balks at final payment. Now you have to sue from out of state. Someone with a better legal mind should jump in. "Calling Bill Hagan to the white courtesy phone."
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Ok mate. Just imagine you hate his guts and work the price out on that basis. Bet your ass you don't have as much internal grappling. He must be a bit of a mate or you'd hit him with the figure and not give a bugger what he thought ...
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Uh......yeah. What he said. :1: :grin: :grin:
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I say go on a motorcycle trip in the opposite direction and don't get involved. Keep friendship and business well separated.
I agree with him, stay away and stay friends. By the way, 6 hour days!!! I got a real laugh out of that. Put a 1 in front of that 6.
"No good deed goes unpunished"
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I agree with him, stay away and stay friends. By the way, 6 hour days!!! I got a real laugh out of that. Put a 1 in front of that 6.
"No good deed goes unpunished"
Trust me , I know about those 16 hour days . But this is simply helping set it up , it won't be open yet . Once again , we aren't friends , his sister worked for me 30 years ago when he was a 12 year old boy , haven't really seen him since . The morals and details aren't important , I have worked for many people across my area , but this is more of a consulting gig .
Dusty
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Before the money part is settled and you are going, ask a couple questions. Who is pulling permits and on who's license? Yours, his or a local? If the work doesn't past inspection who pays to redo it? It's a small town, don't want to piss off the locals before you get the place open. Spread some of the money around.
I guess the first question I would have to decide is are you ready to part ways in a bad way. Hopefully not but ....
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Before the money part is settled and you are going, ask a couple questions. Who is pulling permits and on who's license? Yours, his or a local? If the work doesn't past inspection who pays to redo it? It's a small town, don't want to piss off the locals before you get the place open. Spread some of the money around.
I guess the first question I would have to decide is are you ready to part ways in a bad way. Hopefully not but ....
Dusty can confirm that in this part of the c ountry we know nothing about permits, licenses, million dollar insurance policies, written contracts, etc.
Tex
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If he is paying you on an hourly basis, which is what I would do, then there is no liability on your part. He is supplying the material, tools and basically direction(setting up kitchen), then this is his project. Decide on an hourly price, based on local norms and go from there. The fact that you're not really friends makes this easier in some respects. I would email him all of your requirements before departing.
JMO,based on being a general contractor for almost 30 years.
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Well , I sent my requirements re money and housing . $150.00 a day plus $100.00 a day travel . There will probably be a motorbike to fix also , he has purchased an old airhead , unfortunately I'm not the mechanic that Guzzisteve or Rodekyll are , but will muddle thru . Sound fair to you guys ?
Dusty
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Well , I sent my requirements re money and housing . $150.00 a day plus $100.00 a day travel . There will probably be a motorbike to fix also , he has purchased an old airhead , unfortunately I'm not the mechanic that Guzzisteve or Rodekyll are , but will muddle thru . Sound fair to you guys ?
Dusty
$150/ as long as you do not work 10 hour days. Overtime should be separate in the contract. Heck you are going to be jack of all trades, plumbing, electrical, carpentering, trim carpentering and even then $150/ 8 hour day is low.
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Based on a 8-9 hour day? Sounds fair to me, given what I assume is a lifetime experience in the business.
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Dusty, As long as your comfortable with it, it should be a positive endeavor. You already know this but beware of farm animals included in the payment :evil:
Paul B :boozing:
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:shocked: :laugh: :shocked: :laugh: :shocked: :laugh:
Dusty
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and.........you have to fix a motorcycle too! Too low.
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When I do 'consulting' of this type, I charge $1k/wk, minimum 2 week engagement, plus milage & lodging.. EVERYTHING ELSE i write off in taxes
Like you, I don't do it full time, it is extra $$ for me or something I actively pursue between gigs
Two summers ago I worked on 2 restaurants & did some catering gigs over the summer, I made almost as much in 4mos as I could in a year as a 'working chef' (almost all of the catering was 'under the table' tho)
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This inspiration for a new thread. See General Discussion. :tongue: