Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: fotoguzzi on August 10, 2017, 12:10:11 PM
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http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2017/08/09/motorcyclists-survives-plunge-off-cliff/
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The rider claims the steering locked up. Is that possible?
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The rider claims the steering locked up. Is that possible?
We just had a case of that happening , however in this instance it appears the rider was incapable of countersteering the bike into a tighter radius . In other words he was in over his head .
Dusty
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Seems like he went where he was looking.
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We just had a case of that happening , however in this instance it appears the rider was incapable of countersteering the bike into a tighter radius . In other words he was in over his head .
Dusty
In the video it looked like the guy just ran straight off the road. Maybe even no braking.
I suppose it's possible to get a key ring jammed in the steering head. My V7iii actually had a warning sticker for that.
Not a Harley, so no get back whip to jam something up.
I suspect the rider lost concentration and ran off the road.
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The rider claims the steering locked up. Is that possible?
Definitely can happen as it just happened to me two days ago. I'd been having trouble turning my key to the fork lock position for a couple of weeks and then it started to stay locked even when I turned it on. I was able to wiggle the handlebars to unlock them. Should have taken it in, but I'm an idiot (once it was unlocked it seemed fine). Then in Tuesday during a very slow speed turn, my forks completely locked and down I went. Not fun.
Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
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Definitely can happen as it just happened to me two days ago. I'd been having trouble turning my key to the fork lock position for a couple of weeks and then it started to stay locked even when I turned it on. I was able to wiggle the handlebars to unlock them. Should have taken it in, but I'm an idiot (once it was unlocked it seemed fine). Then in Tuesday during a very slow speed turn, my forks completely locked and down I went. Not fun.
Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
Good to know. I'm guessing the steering lock was somehow out of adjustment and caught? Maybe I should cut mine off as I never use them.
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The rider claims the steering locked up. Is that possible?
Certainly possible that he CLAIMED that it happened.
Easier than claiming that he went into the turn too hot, got on the brakes, stood it up, and target-fixated right off the road, which looks like what happened ....
Has happened to all of us at some point, we just caught it before we went over the cliff and didn't NEED to claim that the steering locked up ....
Lannis
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He target fixated and did not counter steer. I took a bunch screen shots as the video ran and looked at them in sequence. As he entered the curve the angle of his handle bars decreases revealing lack of counter steering. His speed is also decreasing indicating his is off throttle. The further he goes into the curve the more his bars move to parallel to the ground. He literally straight lined it into that curve and off the cliff. He had plenty of space to low side it and didn't even do that.
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I would rather pick gravel out of my elbow, than tree limbs out of my butt. He had plenty of time to keep from going off the cliff.
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Not sayin' it cant happen BUT on my sport the lock engages at about 28 degrees from centerline and I didn't see his bars anwhere near that until he encountered the trees. My K75 is nearly full lock before it engages.
Situational awareness.......0
Physics/Laws of Nature....1
Paul B :boozing:
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Good to know. I'm guessing the steering lock was somehow out of adjustment and caught? Maybe I should cut mine off as I never use them.
I have a Breva 1100 that's now at the dealer as they're trying to figure out what happened. From I've been told, the fork lock is essentially a pin that drops into a hole or against the fork when activated. If the pin breaks, it can potentially engaged the lock regardless of fork position. No clue if that's what happened to the guy in the video, but mine completely locked as I was trying to turn.
Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
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He target fixated and did not counter steer. I took a bunch screen shots as the video ran and looked at them in sequence. As he entered the curve the angle of his handle bars decreases revealing lack of counter steering. His speed is also decreasing indicating his is off throttle. The further he goes into the curve the more his bars move to parallel to the ground. He literally straight lined it into that curve and off the cliff. He had plenty of space to low side it and didn't even do that.
Pretty much what you said. The guy claiming he was only doing 40mph in the video shows how dilusional he is. I think his speed was 68mph entering the curve with the bike on the white line not leaned over.
He is lucky to be alive.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/n1od4v/IMG_5966.png) (http://ibb.co/n1od4v)
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He went right where he was looking. Rider panic and froze.
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Good to know. I'm guessing the steering lock was somehow out of adjustment and caught? Maybe I should cut mine off as I never use them.
I'm not sure. The dealer is looking at it. I'm having them get rid of it just in case.
Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
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Pretty much what you said. The guy claiming he was only doing 40mph in the video shows how dilusional he is. I think his speed was 68mph entering the curve with the bike on the white line not leaned over.
He is lucky to be alive.
Just to repeat what no one else has said ... He's leaned over going 67 MPH. Three seconds later, he's getting ready to go off the cliff at 37 MPH.
Nobody thinks he got on the brakes, thereby standing it up and eliminating his ability to steer properly, in addition to the target fixation, watching bug-eyed as eternity approached ... ?
That would be a Most Likely scenario for a newbie ...
Lannis
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Hey - at least he didn't hit that pole on his way into the wild-blue.
Causes aside - shows the value of learning to toss a bike away in one's youth, regardless the circumstances there either.
Todd.
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Anyone recognize the bike from the speedo cluster?
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Entered too hot, came off throttle and lost lean angle, tumbled down cliff
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There for the grace of God and several riding courses go I....
I find the slant of the article very telling. An accident? I think not...it was bad teaching, as in we allow riding without real single track learning...
The article has a slant that says look how brave this soul was to take on motorcycles and survive...look what bikes will do to you...suddenly and without notice you can be hurled off a cliff
Yes and now we can congratulate this gentleman for deciding to end his two wheel career....wow, that was a close call, GOOD THING IT DIDNT HAPPEN TO YOU, better sell all your bikes now because it'll kill you.
Which pretty much suggests to any testosterone laced youth to go find a bike...and the circle continues...
What if the news report said if for what is was-target fix, poor execution on two wheels. I feel for the rider because of a lack of training, not skill
The reporting carries on a lot of bs about riding
See what I mean?
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The rider missed the sign warning 25 MPH curve ahead & entered it at 67. The curve then reveals itself to be tighter than he'd estimated.
He may have had better luck attempting to rail it with a steep lean angle but it looks like he instinctively reacted to bleed speed & keep the bike upright.
It all seems very common when riding in the mountains, a rider is constantly making estimates & adjusting as conditions reveal themselves. If you're riding at 85% of your skill level & underestimate a curve by 25% you're in over your head.
...it was bad teaching...
Bad teaching? How do you know? Should MC licenses be withheld until a rider is capable of railing a corner at 3X the posted limit? Maybe he knows what he should have done but reacted differently.
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I find the slant of the article very telling. An accident? I think not...
I have to give our local paper credit ... they have stopped using the word "Accident" in association with road crashes.
With very few exceptions, road crashes are never "accidents" except in the sense that people involved wish it hadn't happened. Incompetence, inattention, addiction, road rage, too fast for conditions, there's always a cause, a choice on someone's part, and those aren't "accidents".
As you say, neither was this ...
Lannis
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We just had a case of that happening , however in this instance it appears the rider was incapable of countersteering the bike into a tighter radius . In other words he was in over his head .
Dusty
Like I said ...
Having discussed these types of crashes with literally tens ( :grin:) of crashers , the one constant is that they panicked , stood the bike up and rode the brakes straight off into a tree . Or in this case , straight off a cliff . There is a Y intersection in NE Oklahoma where both legs
are curved that usually has a gravel pile in the Y section . I have personally known two riders who have plowed into said pile because they didn't trust in the laws of physics .
Dusty
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Anyone recognize the bike from the speedo cluster?
Yamaha FZ-10.
Todd.
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Yamaha FZ-10.
Todd.
So the lesson is don't buy an FZ 10 ?
Dusty
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So the lesson is don't buy an FZ 10 ?
Dusty
Not if you've got more testosterone than you have riding experience.
I taught my 16-year-old how to ride on the street using my Centauro. A "Beast" for sure ... unless you simply control the throttle, and then it acts the same as a 350 Honda.
We see (if we look) an awful lot of youtube videos of first-time riders taking off. Me, if I were on a strange bike with a lot of motor, I'd stall it 3 or 4 times, limp-wristing the throttle, before I got going. But these folks get on a Ducati Monster or FZ Yamaha, and think they're supposed to whack the throttle open and dump the clutch .... ?
Lannis
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So the lesson is don't buy an FZ 10 ?
Dusty
Nah - I think the lesson is: Don't mind about that scraping sound and look where ya wanna go.... Also, it's OK to throw it away!
But, mayhap a fella should not in fact have been on an FZ-10 in the first place so yeah, Dusty, maybe that IS the lesson in this case.
Todd.
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Todd , I knew would come to the same logical conclusion :shocked: :laugh:
Dusty
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One thing that was always pounded into my head as student pilot was "never give up". If you stick with that attitude AND training with how to deal with at least some common likely situations you will be much less likely not to panic and will be more likely to deliver yourself or at least minimize he damage when SHTF.
GliderJohn
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One thing that was always pounded into my head as student pilot was "never give up".
Although you have to qualify that, somewhat, depending on what goal you are "giving up".
From what I can tell, more pilots have been killed trying to save a blown approach than any other single error. They don't want to seem like they can't "handle it", and although they may fly all the way to the ground, it's still the ground ...
Related to that is the "cocoon effect" in which a combat pilot is extremely reluctant to eject in a bad situation, because he's extremely familiar with "his office" and believes his training will see him through, whereas outside the cockpit is nothing but uncertainty and 400 mph wind and shocks and impacts and a perception of failure ... And as a result, he waits till "too late" ....
So a lot of it is perspective. What's the goal? you have to ask yourself ...
Lannis
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Certainly possible that he CLAIMED that it happened.
Easier than claiming that he went into the turn too hot, got on the brakes, stood it up, and target-fixated right off the road, which looks like what happened ....
Has happened to all of us at some point, we just caught it before we went over the cliff and didn't NEED to claim that the steering locked up ....
Lannis
(http://www.vinyl45s.com/thumbnail.asp?file=http://45rpmvinyl.com/pic/cry2774.jpg&maxx=300&maxy=0)
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Never giving up and poor judgment are two different things. If the pilot blows an approach, does not use good judgment by doing a go around and gives up then pilot most likely will be dead, less likely if continues to try. Of course in a glider there are no go arounds.
GliderJohn
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Never giving up and poor judgment are two different things. If the pilot blows an approach, does not use good judgment by doing a go around and gives up then pilot most likely will be dead, less likely if continues to try. Of course in a glider there are no go arounds.
GliderJohn
Yes; that's sort of what I meant by "depends on what the goal is". If the "goal" is to land on schedule at any risk, then you "don't give up". If the "goal" is to live to fly another day, that's different.
The desire not to be seen as "a quitter" often pushes people into bad-judgment situations ....
Lannis
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Dealers used to include Keith Code's 'Twist' 1 & 2 with sportbike purchases.
SRs at 6:00min mark:
https://youtu.be/zjL_BO4fPpU?t=6m
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He ran out of talent.
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He ran out of talent.
He thought that countersteering was something you do on a barstool while waiting for your drink.
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Dealers used to include Keith Code's 'Twist' 1 & 2 with sportbike purchases.
SRs at 6:00min mark:
https://youtu.be/zjL_BO4fPpU?t=6m
Interesting vid that and good for a bit of mental revision.
The guy has six years riding under his belt so we can hardly call him a newbie.
I think that either he is one of those people that refuses to believe in the facts of counter steering with a religious like passion, or, more likely, he simply "shyed' at the corner. This can happen when your head gets out of phase, as it were, with what you are doing and forgets what it has learnt in a situation which requires sudden focus. I've seen it happen now and again with people that should have known better. Heck, it's happened to me on occasion, though I was back on task quickly enough to avoid subsequent unpleasantries.
As for giving up biking as a result, I wonder what he thinks his chances are going over a 250 foot bank in a car?
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I found a better video and here are 5 shots. It's pretty clear that he was not breaking but off throttle.
In the first photo he is a 51 MPH and nearing the edge of the road. He had already lost control of his bike.
Look at the distance to the pole. Next photo his is 48 MPH and moved over the white line but still on pavement. Next frame his speed is still dropping to 46 MPH and he still has not passed the pole and maybe barely on the pavement.
The next 2 frames show his speed drops to 38 MPH and is way off the pavement and just past the pole.
Now look at the distance from the 1st frame at 51 MPH to 38 MPH. He clearly had enough distance to brake and never run off the cliff. He was frozen solid/target fixed and off throttle. He wasn't even going that fast.
Is that number "3" in the lower left corner of the speedo screen show the gear he was in? If so he was getting no engine braking in 3rd gear at that speed. He was just gliding off the road.
(http://image.ibb.co/iAYrRa/51_mph.png)
(http://image.ibb.co/ni3Nzv/48_mph.png)
(http://image.ibb.co/c8Nt6a/46_mph.png)
(http://image.ibb.co/nDX4CF/42_mph.png)
(http://image.ibb.co/cdCAma/38_mph.png)
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Look at the curve and his speed. He easily could have rolled on the throttle and pulled on the bars. aka Keith Code. I took Code's course at Road Atlanta and it was a lot like the link posted. Every time we got off the track he reminded us of throttle control and keep your shoulder loose on the handle bars. He harped and harped on it. And also reminding us that when you get into trouble you more than likely can use a little more throttle and counter steer to get you out of a mess. I came away from his course so much better. My wife noticed it immediately how much smoother and faster we could take curves and I am no racer by any means.
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He went right where he was looking. Rider panic and froze.
This might be but it looks like the Gopro was tank mounted so we can't tell where he was looking.
At the rate he was slowing down he was on the front brakes which has the tendency on most bikes to stand the bike up and make it go straight.
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This might be but it looks like the Gopro was tank mounted so we can't tell where he was looking.
At the rate he was slowing down he was on the front brakes which has the tendency on most bikes to stand the bike up and make it go straight.
He was not slowing down fast. He was gliding off throttle. Look at the photos I posted. His speed dropped only 9 MPH from the 1st photo to the 4 photo. If he was braking he could have been stopped when he got to the telephone pole.
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He was not slowing down fast. He was gliding off throttle. Look at the photos I posted. His speed dropped only 9 MPH from the 1st photo to the 4 photo. If he was braking he could have been stopped when he got to the telephone pole.
Pretty selective data. If you take 4 seconds of data rather than just 1 or so, he dropped almost 30 MPH from the time he got in trouble to the time he started into the sky .... I'm still betting "on the brakes" and lost control thereby.
In any case, it's one of those experiences where I learn that I wouldn't have gotten into that situation. There are many I would get into, but not this one ....
Lannis
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Pretty selective data. If you take 4 seconds of data rather than just 1 or so, he dropped almost 30 MPH from the time he got in trouble to the time he started into the sky .... I'm still betting "on the brakes" and lost control thereby.
In any case, it's one of those experiences where I learn that I wouldn't have gotten into that situation. There are many I would get into, but not this one ....
Lannis
I am not evaluating by the time frame but by the distance and speed seen on the speedo. The first photo I put up at 51 MPH shows him far from that telephone pole and he had already drifted to the outside of the curve. As you follow the next frames he just keeps on going off the curve almost if not in a straight line. His speed drops but not fast enough to claim he is braking. Even the pavement off the road would have taken mild braking without losing the front end. That bike has ABS and traction control. I bet he could had pulled as hard as he wanted and it would not have locked up. The bike was almost straight up. Look how much distance he had at 51 MPH until he went off the cliff. If he was braking he would have taken far more than 16 MPH off his speed.
At 50 MPH he is traveling about 75 per second. Look at the photo below. He crashes 4 seconds after this photo. Do you think he has enough distance to stop that bike? How far is he from that telephone pole and his speed at the pole is about 42 MPH. Braking distance for the FZ10 under optimal conditions is rated at 127 feet @ 60 MPH and at 30 MPH it is 34 feet. So he clearly is not braking.
(http://image.ibb.co/cYfmuv/full_screen_51_secs.png)
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misleading title. didn't exactly fly, now did he? :wink:
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misleading title. didn't exactly fly, now did he? :wink:
Well, Tiddles the Cat could fly across a room and land in a bucket of water ... so he did sort of fly.
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Well, Tiddles the Cat could fly across a room and land in a bucket of water ... so he did sort of fly.
sometimes falling feels like flying......for a little while.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX4-U2r4lS0
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It's a phenomenon that's happened to many of us...
Mid corner we decide we would rather be a drag racer than a road racer. :evil:
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It's a phenomenon that's happened to many of us...
Mid corner we decide we would rather be a drag racer than a road racer. :evil:
Yeah , but Angelle would have made the corner :shocked:
Dusty
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Counter steering just drops the bike over into a lean angle quickly. That's great but there's a point where too much speed is still too much speed.
Counter steering does a lot more than that, unless of course your forks are vertical, in which case you are not going round a corner at all. His speed doesn't look to much for the corner too me.
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When I don't want to be erect anymore I counter steer. What does it do for you?
I've never been in that situation, so I'd be no help .... I'm sort of the opposite.
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When I don't want to be erect anymore I counter steer. What does it do for you?
There's no pill for that? :boozing:
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Members here have made that corner too - it's Stunt Road, right exactly here...
goo.gl/TzpXTW (http://goo.gl/TzpXTW)
Someone should make an instructional vid of how to take that at 68 MPH. :evil: :tongue:
I've done it many times.. :smiley: No.. not the flying part. :shocked:
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One thing that was always pounded into my head as student pilot was "never give up". If you stick with that attitude AND training with how to deal with at least some common likely situations you will be much less likely not to panic and will be more likely to deliver yourself or at least minimize he damage when SHTF.
GliderJohn
Yep. A bike like in this video has way more capability than the average rider. He should've trusted the bike and LEANED !!!
Hard to do when a n00b, though. The natural reaction to entering a turn too hot is to stand it up and get on the brakes. One has to work hard to overcome that natural reaction. When in the motorcycle business, I used to have to ride with a lot of n00bs. Saw the "stand it up and ride it straight off the road" thing happen on too many occasions.
I see this with horses, too. When a horse gets rowdy, a rider's natural reaction is to bail off. Unfortunately, bailing off will usually result in an injury. Riding it out is normally the best option. The horse will usually settle down, if handled properly.
Sometimes it takes years to teach people to resist the urge to bail. Both on motorcycles and horses.