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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: azguzzirep on August 13, 2017, 04:23:01 AM

Title: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: azguzzirep on August 13, 2017, 04:23:01 AM
Saw this at the big Guzzi rally yesterday.


(http://thumb.ibb.co/gmzaKv/20170812_143139.jpg) (http://ibb.co/gmzaKv)

(http://thumb.ibb.co/kGMpev/20170812_143120.jpg) (http://ibb.co/kGMpev)

(http://thumb.ibb.co/cfOwRa/20170812_143234.jpg) (http://ibb.co/cfOwRa)
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: Mr Revhead on August 13, 2017, 05:23:37 AM
Witchcraft!!
I wonder what is involved in doing that?  is it as simple as swapping heads side to side and new pistons?
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: azguzzirep on August 13, 2017, 05:34:04 AM
Witchcraft!!
I wonder what is involved in doing that?  is it as simple as swapping heads side to side and new pistons?

You have to make a new reverse camshaft .
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: Old Jock on August 13, 2017, 05:56:34 AM
Why?
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: pete roper on August 13, 2017, 06:33:33 AM
Because they really enjoy dealing with the aftermath when the heads fall off the exhaust valves like they did when this absurd idea was tried in the early 1970's on a couple of endurance racers.

The theory was that having the bellmouths on the carburettors pointing forward would impart some magical effect that would force more mixture into the cylinders. Needless to say it was bollocks and all that happened was the exhaust valves overheated and shed their heads due to lack of cooling.

It's just another example of idiocy being trans generational and nobody doing any research on thier unoriginal, crackpot, ideas.

Pete
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: Dofin on August 13, 2017, 07:21:56 AM
It looks really cool!  easy to throw shade, the guy just wants something different, willing to work or pay for it and accept the negatives.  Two thumbs up for the wack a doodles out there doing what makes them happy@@    :thumb:   :thumb:   :drool:
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: dxhall on August 13, 2017, 08:41:43 AM
Was there any background on the bike?  I'm curious how he made the reverse camshaft. 
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: Lee Davis on August 13, 2017, 10:10:42 AM
Silly Goose! It is just like the problem with nails when building a house... fully half of the nails have the head on the wrong end, it appears. But shrewd carpenters know that the bad nails are meant for the opposite side of the house. I'll bet that if a kit were sold to reverse the heads as such, a fair number of wack-a-doodles would buy it, valves be damned. Not me though! When I reach for a nail with the head on the wrong end, I just throw it away.

(http://thumb.ibb.co/b9Zy6a/nice_color_1.jpg) (http://ibb.co/b9Zy6a)

upload photo albums (http://imgbb.com/)


Here is one modification that actually worked: a 2 cylinder VW for aircraft...
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: oldbike54 on August 13, 2017, 10:27:57 AM
 This reverse head concept has been tried on vert twin Brit bikes also . Of course it decreases HP because there is a low pressure area in front of the intake area . Like many ideas , it might look cool , but doesn't work in the real world .

 Dusty
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: hidn45 on August 13, 2017, 10:29:03 AM
Lee -   ;^)   !!!
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: dxhall on August 13, 2017, 10:39:26 AM
The 1960s drag racers messed with ram air for a while.  Remember the Dodge 440 Six Pac with the big scoop?  The racers abandoned the idea because dyno tests showed that the horsepower gain from ram air was only in a very narrow range.  On each side of that range there was a horsepower loss.  Pressurized air boxes (which many bikes have now) give a slight boost across a much wider range.
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: RinkRat II on August 13, 2017, 10:46:26 AM

 I find it appropriate to interject Sheepdogs moniker at this point   "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking." George S. Patton

  Thanks Sheepdog!
      Paul B :boozing:
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: Two Checks on August 13, 2017, 11:00:51 AM
The 1960s drag racers messed with ram air for a while.  Remember the Dodge 440 Six Pac with the big scoop?  The racers abandoned the idea because dyno tests showed that the horsepower gain from ram air was only in a very narrow range.  On each side of that range there was a horsepower loss.  Pressurized air boxes (which many bikes have now) give a slight boost across a much wider range.
You are thinking of the big blocks with the dual quad cross ram manifolds originally called sonoramic because he internal manifold runner lengths were designed to use intake pulses to induce a ram effect. Hence the name of the race ream...Ramchargers. They did fi d one length was better at high rpm and another at low. But this was in the early 60s with no computers.
The manifolds did find their way into production option lists.
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: Huzo on August 13, 2017, 12:33:15 PM
Why?
But Jock with all due respect to you, and I have a LOT!!! It is another manifestation of someone who just loves to do something to express his skill and creativeness. Not unlike your six spot caliper artistry, four spotters will tip you on your face so why six??? It's because you bloody well can mate, and the Bike world in general and Guzzi in particular, are the richer for creations like yours. Also you do learn a HELL OF A LOT by buggerising around and turning your visions into bike reality. Do you not ? Pete has hosed the whole thing with a dose of reality, so it's probably just a worthless bit of chicanery but good on him for getting off his bum and trying something.
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: ken farr on August 13, 2017, 12:37:26 PM
Pete:  You just gotta stop bottling things up, and just speak your mind.   :evil:

Lee:  Brilliant.   :bow:


kjf
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: Huzo on August 13, 2017, 12:38:25 PM
Witchcraft!!
I wonder what is involved in doing that?  is it as simple as swapping heads side to side and new pistons?
Would the pistons just swap sides with their respective heads, the carby side would still be facing the carby, etc...
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: cruzziguzzi on August 13, 2017, 12:38:53 PM
I think it might be an interesting engineering exercise for the home-built guy but more particularly if one was to integrate a turbo in the mix.



Todd.
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: Huzo on August 13, 2017, 12:40:03 PM
Because they really enjoy dealing with the aftermath when the heads fall off the exhaust valves like they did when this absurd idea was tried in the early 1970's on a couple of endurance racers.

The theory was that having the bellmouths on the carburettors pointing forward would impart some magical effect that would force more mixture into the cylinders. Needless to say it was bollocks and all that happened was the exhaust valves overheated and shed their heads due to lack of cooling.

It's just another example of idiocy being trans generational and nobody doing any research on thier unoriginal, crackpot, ideas.

Pete
Just what we didn't need, a dose of common sense. :embarrassed:
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: Huzo on August 13, 2017, 12:42:02 PM
This reverse head concept has been tried on vert twin Brit bikes also . Of course it decreases HP because there is a low pressure area in front of the intake area . Like many ideas , it might look cool , but doesn't work in the real world .

 Dusty
Low pressure you say, Bernoulli ???
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: Dukedesmo on August 13, 2017, 12:44:19 PM
When I was a teenager I had an old 'Rizzato Califfone' 50cc 2-stroke Italian moped. It had a horizontal cylinder and a forward facing carb with a plastic cover that turned the intakes to the rear.


I figured that removing the cover would allow air to be forced into the carb at 'speed' (really?) and the bike would make hundreds of horsepower. In reality it just popped and farted and only went half as fast as with the cover on....


Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: cruzziguzzi on August 13, 2017, 12:53:39 PM
When I was a teenager I had an old 'Rizzato Califfone' 50cc 2-stroke Italian moped. It had a horizontal cylinder and a forward facing carb with a plastic cover that turned the intakes to the rear.


I figured that removing the cover would allow air to be forced into the carb at 'speed' (really?) and the bike would make hundreds of horsepower. In reality it just popped and farted and only went half as fast as with the cover on....

Classic example of an opportunity for one of my Ol' Man's favorite mantra:

"Do you understand everything you know about that?"

Or, the flip side:

"Seemed like a good idea at the time!"



Todd.
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: oldbike54 on August 13, 2017, 01:10:04 PM
Low pressure you say, Bernoulli ???

 Dunno , not sure how a pasta brand plays in here  :huh:

 Dusty
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: Huzo on August 13, 2017, 01:22:52 PM
Dunno , not sure how a pasta brand plays in here  :huh:

 Dusty
My half baked thought would have been that there would have been higher pressure due to the ram effect, but then Bernoulli's law says that the higher the air velocity, the lower the static pressure,(it's one of the reasons a wing works), so I'm clueless. Did not know about the pasta thing, now that IS interesting. Mmmmmmm, Pasta. :drool:
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: Charles in Lake Charles on August 13, 2017, 02:16:27 PM
This bike was built for the tall gentleman (note taller seat on separate sub frame) by a bike shop that was part of a biker tv show.
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: oldbike54 on August 13, 2017, 02:21:37 PM
My half baked thought would have been that there would have been higher pressure due to the ram effect, but then Bernoulli's law says that the higher the air velocity, the lower the static pressure,(it's one of the reasons a wing works), so I'm clueless. Did not know about the pasta thing, now that IS interesting. Mmmmmmm, Pasta. :drool:

 The effects of pressure are manifold .

 Dusty
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: rodekyll on August 13, 2017, 02:52:36 PM
Dunno , not sure how a pasta brand plays in here  :huh:

 Dusty

I got one of Bernoulli's latte machines to beta test.  I reported back that it would never fly . .. 
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: cruzziguzzi on August 13, 2017, 02:57:48 PM
The effects of pressure are manifold .

 Dusty
Lookee here, let's be adult about this and not get sucked into thread-drift enabled punnery!    :thewife:

Nope, not gonna do it.... Not gonna get drawn in - DAMMIT!


Todd.
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: Tim Henry on August 13, 2017, 03:14:26 PM
I've been asked why the intake air on my 8x griso is in the tail section I tell them it's there so every time I fart I get a boost in hp almost like nitrous.
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: oldbike54 on August 13, 2017, 03:56:59 PM
 If we effectively allow ourselves to be affected by the affectations of the effective manifold directions this thread , we may in fact become forever affected although effectively that will make no difference .

 (Did I keep that straight?)

 Dusty
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: rodekyll on August 13, 2017, 04:03:39 PM
If we effectively allow ourselves to be affected by the affectations of the effective manifold directions this thread , we may in fact become forever affected although effectively that will make no difference .

 (Did I keep that straight?)

 Dusty

I think that's your proof, right there.    :whip2:
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: Pop on August 13, 2017, 05:58:55 PM
Saw the same thing some years ago. It looked kool but they hadn't figured out the internals. Did you hear it run? I also thought that there would be airflow benefits, ahhh, what the heck do I know.
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: Dukedesmo on August 14, 2017, 05:21:43 AM
Well it gives a shorter, straighter exhaust run, whether that's of much benefit I don't know?


IIRC the Petronas FP1 superbike had a 3 cylinder engine with the intakes at the front/exhaust at the rear and was renowned for shooting flames out of the pipes.


Ducatis also have that setup on the rear cylinder but that's mainly for 'packaging' reasons with regards to airbox setup etc.


It just looks wrong on a Guzzi though...

Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: Old Jock on August 14, 2017, 06:17:19 AM
Wish I could find the link to that race Guzzi, I think it was a Spanish team that operated it.

It had the exhausts coming out the sides and if I remember correctly, belt drives, it produced a Ducati challenging output

I seem to remember years ago it went up for sale at a pretty eye watering price, but you'd also have needed your own machine shop to keep it running

IMHO it looked awesome

Possibly somebody else may remember it
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: pete roper on August 14, 2017, 06:35:34 AM
The DOHC with side exit exhausts? Yup, that was pretty impressive but calling it a 'Guzzi' would be stretching a very long bow John! :laugh: it's also a completely different set up to these reversed head POS that some people think are 'Cool'.

To me 'Cool' has to mean it *Works*, ie, it has tangible benefits in terms of performance. It doesn't just mean it 'Looks' different and therefore must be marvey!

I micturate lavishly and with gusto on this sort of nonsense!

Pete
Title: Re: reverse head Guzzi
Post by: azguzzirep on August 14, 2017, 08:00:58 AM
Quote from: Pop link=topic=91814.msg1449343#msg1449343 date=1502665135. Did you hear it run?
[/quote

I watched him ride in and followed him to where he parked.  Bike is a T-3.