Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: tris on August 13, 2017, 08:51:20 AM
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I'll set the scene
Me and a mate did a 160 mile loop of the North Yorkshire Moors with the last 60 or so miles in rain and the bike didn't miss a beat.
Parked up for the night and it got rained on a bit more.
Came to start it this morning and it's dead.
Dash does its sweeps an test lights properly but even though the side stand is down and in neutral no lights except for the red triangle of death and the ECU disconnected icon.
No ecu or dash errors showing
I suspect water ingress somewhere but where do you suggest I start looking please
Cheers Tris
PS - the ride was great :thumb:
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Check the main earth from the ECU. If that is secure pull the ECU and check all the pins and pin blocks for water infiltration and rust.
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Cheers Pete
At the moment he's in disgrace in the garage after coming home in the breakdown waggon, but I'll get stuck in this week and see if I can find out what's going on.
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Cheers Pete
At the moment he's in disgrace in the garage after coming home in the breakdown waggon, but I'll get stuck in this week and see if I can find out what's going on.
Calling her a "he" within earshot, might not help your cause Tris..
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IT might get called a lot of other things if he/she doesn't respond in an appropriate manner :wink:
The irony is though that the plan was that after this trip I was sending the dash off to the nice people at Carmo to hopefully fix the intermittent fault in the LCD .
That will have to wait now until I get him :wink: running so I don't and another variable to the mix
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checking, cleaning, and vaseline on the ground point sounds about right, deoxit on all the connections & look for water.... man that sucks, I hope the fix is that simple!
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Of course, the dash may have gone completely tits-up, and is now no longer on talking terms with the ECU.
:shocked: :grin: :evil:
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Cruel - very cruel Beetle given our recent very helpful discussion :wink: :wink:
However, given that the dash does all its sweeps and lights all the lights in the test phase correctly PLUS when it has a mind to it lights up the LCD which then shows all it should do via the buttons on the LH bar I'm hopeful that the dash isn't the cause of this problem :undecided: :undecided:
That being said, in addition to Petes' suggestions I think I'll pull the plugs on the dash just to check whether there are any problems there
Time will tell
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I pulled the ECU and all the pins are clean and between the ECU body and the battery earth I get 0.1 Ohms resistance - so that looks OK
Also pulled the plug on the back of the clocks and those pins look OK too
No obvious signs of water in either location but I've left everything unplugged in case I just can't see it and this might give it a chance to dry out.
If this doesn't sort it I thought I'd stick the ECU and dash in the airing cupboard to dry.
Any issues with that plan and /or any better suggestions??
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Is there any sign of fogging up in the dash if so I would get it in the airing cupboard ASAP
You said you got a message ECU disconnected, I wouldn't take that literally, it probably means it's not communicating which could happen if the lines were shorted by water.
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No fogging Roy but an excellent suggestion. I'm off to pull the dash and stash it in the airing cupboard
Cheers
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there is one on US ebay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOTO-GUZZI-BREVA-V1100-V11-06-ECU-ECM-CDI-IGNITION-MODULE-19K-MILES-/272607712286?hash=item3f78af941e:g:9IoAAOSwZ4dZI2Gr&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOTO-GUZZI-BREVA-V1100-V11-06-ECU-ECM-CDI-IGNITION-MODULE-19K-MILES-/272607712286?hash=item3f78af941e:g:9IoAAOSwZ4dZI2Gr&vxp=mtr)
micky
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No fogging Roy but an excellent suggestion. I'm off to pull the dash and stash it in the airing cupboard
Cheers
Good plan. I hope you'll post the resolution of the problem, good or bad. Your report about the wiring is already a good data point. If drying it in the airing cabinet works I wouldn't delay sending it to Carmo or else opening it up for a trip to the cell phone shop for a coating. Good luck.
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Cheers Moto
I'm going to stay my excitement and leave it in the airing cupboard for another day to make sure :wink:
Also I bought some Servisol contact cleaner at lunch time and that's going to get shot everywhere that needs it and left to fully evaporate
The probability is that it is the dash given the dousing it had, so if it connects to the ECU after that lot it'll go straight off to Carmo without further ado
If it doesn't - I think I'll have to check for continuity for all the cables between the ECU plug and the dash plug - I can't say I'm looking forward to that possibility
As an aside, are there any intermediate connections between the dash and the ECU I need to look at?
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Cheers Moto
I'm going to stay my excitement and leave it in the airing cupboard for another day to make sure :wink:
Also I bought some Servisol contact cleaner at lunch time and that's going to get shot everywhere that needs it and left to fully evaporate
The probability is that it is the dash given the dousing it had, so if it connects to the ECU after that lot it'll go straight off to Carmo without further ado
If it doesn't - I think I'll have to check for continuity for all the cables between the ECU plug and the dash plug - I can't say I'm looking forward to that possibility
As an aside, are there any intermediate connections between the dash and the ECU I need to look at?
The dash probably senses the presence of the ECU via the CAN bus lines, which are at pins 26 and 27 of the black multi-connector on the dash. These appear to be direct wires w/o intermediate connectors. You could also examine the wiring diagram for other possible indirect routes to worry about, but I wouldn't.
I put a little petroleum jelly in my dash connectors when I re-mated them, but they appeared like new when I examined them.
Moto
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I think that you're correct as I had a look at the writing diagram after I wrote (its better than working :wink:) and I think!
26 dash goes to 29 on the body connector - CAN - L
27 dash goes to 20 on the body connector - HAN - H
I'm not sure if I need to worry about the K-Line but looks reasonably easy to check
28 dash goes to 7 on the body connector.
Pin 16 on the body connector takes the K-line to the diagnostics plug under the seat
I originally thought I had 40 odd of the blighters to ring out, but if I'm lucky I'm down to 4!!
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Moto,
I seem to recall you did a lot of work on the dash for these later bikes.
I don't know anything about Can Bus (I work on industrial systems) but I'm sure we have owners on here who work with it every day, I assume it's an international standard.
I wonder what tools are available to plug into the connector (60) on Carl's drawing.
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Moto,
I seem to recall you did a lot of work on the dash for these later bikes.
I don't know anything about Can Bus (I work on industrial systems) but I'm sure we have owners on here who work with it every day, I assume it's an international standard.
I wonder what tools are available to plug into the connector (60) on Carl's drawing.
Roy, I only know what I read about CAN bus in the Wikipedia! It's a digital packet-based system, vaguely like Ethernet. It would be nice to find a generic reader to plug into the connector, and for all I know Guzzi is using standard messages. Whether reading them could help us is a mystery to me.
Moto
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At the very least it might confirm it's communicating
Hopefully an expert will jump in here.
I found this basic tutorial describing it
https://www.kvaser.com/can-protocol-tutorial/
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I believe that CAN BUS is simply explained as black magic :thumb:
If I can see continuity between the dash and the ECU that'll do to start.
Watch this space as reconnection starts tomorrow :grin:
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Hopefully an expert will jump in here.
Ditto!
Thinking about it a little more, I suppose getting a CAN bus "sniffer" attached to that connector might allow an expert to understand what is passed between the dash and the ecu, and maybe open up a path away from the original dashboard to some generic, CAN-bus capable, replacement. That would be great!
I wonder what such an expert would think about that.
EDIT: It's all been done, it seems. Here's what you'll need to get started:
http://hackaday.com/2013/10/21/can-hacking-introductions/ (http://hackaday.com/2013/10/21/can-hacking-introductions/)
http://www.computer-solutions.co.uk/gendev/can-usb.htm (http://www.computer-solutions.co.uk/gendev/can-usb.htm)
:laugh:
P.S. The K line is not part of the CAN bus (insert transportation joke here): https://www.picoauto.com/library/automotive-guided-tests/k-line/ (https://www.picoauto.com/library/automotive-guided-tests/k-line/)
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I found this on Guzztech last night (I know its for a Stelvio) http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/ecu-disconnect.11859/ and he concludes that the speedo sensor wire was the cause
Its interesting because my speedo had a hissy fit (and them recovered) a month or two back where it "accurately" showed that I had ridden the bike at 150 miles per hour - which is nice :thumb:
I shall take a look here during the big connect tonight
Tris
PS like his, on mine all the lights illuminate on the dash during the test sequence but neutral and side stand lights refuse too once that is complete
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We're getting ....... somewhere
Put it back together and still the same.
Established that 4 way flashers, indicators, sidelights front & rear brake lights and horn all worked
HOWEVER I found that fuse E had blown - replaced that and it blew again. Fuse E feeds the Main Injector relay
If this relay went FUBAR could it show itself as an ECU disconnect??
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Go to a parts stores get a can of WATER DISPLACEMENT SPRAY. Put the straw that comes with it on the spray button. Spray every connection you can get to, starting under the seat. The stuff works.
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We're getting ....... somewhere
Put it back together and still the same.
Established that 4 way flashers, indicators, sidelights front & rear brake lights and horn all worked
HOWEVER I found that fuse E had blown - replaced that and it blew again. Fuse E feeds the Main Injector relay
If this relay went FUBAR could it show itself as an ECU disconnect??
I haven't looked at the schematic, but you have a short or overload on that circuit. does it feed anything else off that relay?
Pull the relay, replace the fuse and see if it pops.
Does it power the supply or the switch side? If it is the switch side, something in the kill switch, neutral, or sidestand switch might have an issue.
Is it is the supply side, you have a short to ground somewhere, or a fubar injector.
edit: spellin'
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Ok, I get you. It's been down and some of this stuff is not related to the fork lock.
Like Steve said, Joe W, the Guzzi Doctor, is another excellent local Guzzi resource.
I have a B1100, runs like it never wants to stop! Come out once you get this sorted out, and join us for our monthly breakfast in Dekalb, first Sat of every month!
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If this relay went FUBAR could it show itself as an ECU disconnect??
Yes. It supplies the ECU 'KEY_SENSE' input. If this doesn't go high at key-on, the ECU will stay idle.
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We're getting ....... somewhere
Put it back together and still the same.
Established that 4 way flashers, indicators, sidelights front & rear brake lights and horn all worked
HOWEVER I found that fuse E had blown - replaced that and it blew again. Fuse E feeds the Main Injector relay
If this relay went FUBAR could it show itself as an ECU disconnect??
I guess so
Now what's blowing it?
Probably a wiring short somewhere, I doubt water in the dash would be able to blow the fuse
Look at all the different loads tied to that fuse.
Your diagram must be different to the one I have it shows fuse E going to pin 4 of the ECU
The main injector relay would have both coils and both injectors on it, perhaps the pump also
Good Luck
Roy
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Roy is right, per my diagram (Carl Allison's colorized version). Fuse E supplies the ECU, pin 4, directly from the battery. Fuse D is the one that directly supplies the injection main relay.
If Fuse E blows before the ignition is turned on, there must be a ground somewhere along its path to the ecu, since there are no other branches off that circuit.
On the other hand, if Fuse E blows only after the ignition is turned on, the ECU is implicated. Either it is grounding internally, or it is sending current to another wire that has a short circuit. I'll bet it's the second possibility.
Of all the powered circuits from the ECU, the one off pin 17 has the most branches. You could check whether any wire on that circuit is shorted to ground by using an ohmmeter on any of its terminations, with the ignition turned off. For example, at the speed sensor (item 49) at the rear wheel, the place the Guzzitech poster found his problem. You would need to separate the connector there and test for ground on the appropriate wire coming from the ECU, which apparently has a "+" mark at the connector. (Bad news: At least for my Griso, the color coding on Carl's wiring diagram does not match the colors of the wires at that connector.)
And so on if you still haven't found a short, for all the other powered wires from the ECU, including indirect feeds.
Have you checked the speed sensor already? Those speed sensors fail, especially on the earlier bikes. Maybe they can short to ground internally, causing your problem. Try unplugging yours and seeing if Fuse E still blows. If not, check its unplugged wire, as above.
Or maybe you meant Fuse D all along, in which case I am now at a Roseanne Roseannadanna moment: Never mind!
There must be a better plan. Roy??
Moto
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Cheers both - my bad I meant fuse D :sad:
Priority 1 today is to print the wiring diagram off on A3 in colour so "the dog can see the rabbit"
Old school this bike as no ABS so no rear sensor. I have checked the front speed sensor and and get 700 ohms across terms 2&3 (manual says it should be 500-600) so in the ball park given that my multimeter isn't the best in the world. I haven't checked for a circuit to earth though
I also know now that if I just replace fuse D and switch on, everything does what it should do including lighting the side stand and neutral lights and no disconnected ECU icon.
As soon as I push the start button it pops fuse D and the side stand/neutral lights go out and the icon/triangle of death appears
Its always helpful if you can cause the failure, even if you need a large supply of 15A fuses to track the solution down
Thanks for the support
Tris
PS Startus Interuptus mod is fitted
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I think before I blew another fuse I would unplug the ECU then if the fuse pops again you have narrowed it down to the wiring.
The way I approach a short is to replace the fuse with a headlight bulb with a couple of wires soldered on, this will supply the circuit without the lamp getting hot but if you have a short it will glow at full brightness. Wiggle stuff around hoping to create or lift a short signified by the lamp flashing, it's very visual and you soon narrow it down to the part of the circuit at fault, no fuses are harmed in the process.
I would leave the ECU unplugged at this stage assuming it still blew the fuse with it unplugged, no sense in putting it at further risk
If the ECU is blowing fuses you have a serious problem
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2005_Breva_1100.gif
Sorry I'm off for a week, have it fixed before I get back :thewife:
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First thing I would do is disconnect the speedo sensor.
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I think ecu has no power. So try connecting guzzidiag and see if that can connect to the ecu. That goes outside the can line, so the dash doesn't play a role in this.
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I sort of tried that yesterday Beetle before I worked out that it had blown the fuse again so couldn't
I'm feeling flush so I'll unplug the speedo sensor and stuff a new fuse in - you never know I might be lucky :thumb:
Paul, I did that and GD wouldn't connect
I think the confusing thing is that the ECU has 2 power supplies, one via the 3A Fuse E to ECU body connector pin 4 and one via the 15A Fuse D to body connector pin 17
So even if Fuse E is good, loosing Fuse D makes it look like a power less/disconnected ECU
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One wire is probably battery/keep alive voltage, and the other ignition power. I'd assume both need power for the ECU to work.
You don't have a relay full water do you?
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If you pull the little connector at the starter engine back, see if the fuse still blows when you push the starter button. My 08 does not need the startus interuptus mods. Still running on original battery. There was a mod to the first series that you had to take a relay out, what is you VIN?
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It's an 06 bike if that helps I don't have the VIN to hand just now
I've had non bike stuff to do over the weekend so will get back on it next week
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It's an 06 bike if that helps I don't have the VIN to hand just now
I've had non bike stuff to do over the weekend so will get back on it next week
Sorry my fault, that was with the 2008 stelvio.
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I think I've found the cause - wheel sensor
(https://preview.ibb.co/f78swk/WP_20170823_19_56_49_Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cHOgp5)
(https://preview.ibb.co/gQ4nU5/WP_20170823_19_56_24_Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f0BCwk)
The housing has bleb on the end that I assume it wasn't made with
(https://preview.ibb.co/m91LGk/WP_20170823_19_54_01_Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jUip95)
Plus a crack around the moulded in boot.
Also I can't get any sensible values out of the sensor so I'm guessing is BER
However, can someone (Roy perhaps) please just check my rationale as to why I think I had the failure I had
1) Assume that the Speed Sensor body is full of water and shorting live and earth
2) Pushing the starter button pulls the main Injection Relay In
3) Juice via fuse D flows through this relay and straight to earth blowing the 15A fuse D due to the short in the speed sensor
4) This kills the second live feed to the dash
5) So dash lights up and does its test stuff via the 3A fuse E but goes dark and only shows the red triangle/ECU disconnected because it has no power via Fuse D. red triange being powered by the 3A fuse
Does that sound sensible?
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Sounds reasonable to me.. can you just unhook it?
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Sounds right. Disconnecting the sensor at the other end should remove the short, so fuse does not blow, bike start and run? ... maybe with a speed sensor code.
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I doubt the Wheel speed sensor has anything to do with the ECU but being a Guzzi anything's possible.
Actually you may be right
In fact I'm certain
Who would of thought a wheel speed sensor would take out the motor but there you go fed from the common red/black wire, also bought on by the wet conditions that you rode through.
Those sensors on the Breva have history, where the soft wire comes out of the hard plastic it creates a wick point for moisture, sucks right in to the solder joints sits in there festering away.
When you replace the sensor apply a little silicone to where the wire comes out, this sticks to the plastic and the wire creating a flexible waterproof seal.
I told you to get it fixed before I got back LOL
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Did I not say it was the sensor?
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Yes you did, I guess you've seen it before as well.
Its a common problem with flexible cables going into a molded electrical device.
It's a poor design that can be fixed with a dab of silicone.
Might have lasted for years if it hadn't been ridden in the rain.
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It's a known (but uncommon) issue with the early rear sensors on CARC bikes. The newer sensors seem more hardy.
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Did I not say it was the sensor?
Yes, but I suggested unplugging it first, on page 1.
But who's counting?
Tris, congratulations on persisting and getting her done.
Moto
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Yes, but I suggested unplugging it first, on page 1.
But who's counting?
Tris, congratulations on persisting and getting her done.
Moto
So you did, reply 28
Moto gets the cookie :thumb:
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Thanks everyone
The speed sensor was high on my suspect list because of earlier issues I had had that had "gone away" so Motos & Beetles comments helped me to focus, but i struggled to see how a speed sensor could kill the bike
However, I was keen to see a cause that linked to the result and the crack letting water in obviously does.
The thing that threw me for a bit was that it blew a fuse and then it didn't and the only explanation I could come up with that it had dried out so I went looking for a crack.
It took me half an hour with a bright light to finally spot that crack!
So, a new sensor is going to be sourced and I have a cunning plan that doesn't include my giving Piaggio one hundred and sixteen of my hard earned pounds :evil:
As I have a Mech E background this sparky stuff takes me a while to get my head around, however to para-phase Roys sig
Moto Guzzi - providing learning opportunities for 90 years
I now know about stuff I didn't know a week ago ..... which is nice!
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The speedo sensor was a problem on the earlier Grisos but was never a big deal on the Breva/1200S/Norge.
The Griso sensor was mounted in the rear swingarm and evidently caught a bunch of crud and water, the sensor was eventually changed and sealed.
I'm not saying the speedo sensor isn't your problem, it just wasn't the big deal on the bikes that had it on the front fork that it was on the Griso.
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You could well be right Bis so while the dash is with Carmo to sort the LCD I plan to break and remake every connection I can and give everything else a good coat of looking at :thumb:
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You could well be right Bis so while the dash is with Carmo to sort the LCD I plan to break and remake every connection I can and give everything else a good coat of looking at :thumb:
As far as I'm concerned.. that is a good plan for *every* Guzzi. Most on road "break downs" can be cured by a preemptive strike.
I didn't bother to find out which circuit was ready to fail.. but the guy that "don't fix nothing until it breaks" would have found out shortly. <shrug>
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/777/32647010133_32fc962167_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/RJUsH4)2017-03-15_04-09-48 (https://flic.kr/p/RJUsH4) by Charles Stottlemyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/107188298@N06/), on Flickr