Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: BOAT on September 13, 2017, 05:43:57 AM
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I dearly love riding my '95 Cali 1100i. She's performing very well this summer. But can any of my esteemed Guzzi gurus tell me why do I have these false neutral shifts?
Doesn't happen all-the-time, but too frequently and annoying. It usually happens between 2nd and 3rd, but not always. Although it seems to happen more at higher rev shirting, it can happen anytime. Once the expected gear is not there, as it's in some-kind-of neutral, I can usually tap it in with a second try, but sometimes it stubbornly refuses to acquire desired gear and I must down-shift and try again.
Am I missing something here?
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I dearly love riding my '95 Cali 1100i. She's performing very well this summer. But can any of my esteemed Guzzi gurus tell me why do I have these false neutral shifts?
Doesn't happen all-the-time, but too frequently and annoying. It usually happens between 2nd and 3rd, but not always. Although it seems to happen more at higher rev shirting, it can happen anytime. Once the expected gear is not there, as it's in some-kind-of neutral, I can usually tap it in with a second try, but sometimes it stubbornly refuses to acquire desired gear and I must down-shift and try again.
Am I missing something here?
I think all Guzzi owners have some experience with this....less so on the newer bikes. I was always told to be very firm and deliberate with my shifts. Whenever I did hit a false neutral I realized I may have "Nancy'd" the shift.
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Part of the "charm" of Guzzi ownership. You don't get that with just any 🏍
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Back in the day my LM3 had neutrals everywhere, I adapted my shifting to this.
Upshift: pull clutch, half-shift into the false neutral, release shift pedal, again half-shift into next gear, release clutch.
downshift: pull clutch, blip throttle, full shift one gear down, release clutch.
to me this was one of the charms of the LM3
Once I did it wrong while riding along a dike (thats where the twisties are in Holland) in a spirited manner. The engine revved up very fast and the counterforces almost ran me off the road, bike made at least a 1 meter sidestep :undecided:
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The design of the shift detent on that model makes it much more likely to happen. You need to adjust the linkage and such to get the best throw. Even better is to disassemble and shim the transmission a bit better, but that is likely not practical.
So, make sure the shift linkage is adjusted properly. If you have to move your foot too far in one direction, adjust it.
Also, on that model, there is a second hole in the shift linkage, behind the starter. If you use the hole that is farthest out, then your foot does not need to move as much to get all of the way into gear. Make sure the linkage is in the hole.
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...can any of my esteemed Guzzi gurus tell me why do I have these false neutral shifts?
Am I missing something here?
Rider error. Take your time and make sure you fully move the shift lever through its travel range.
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Also, on that model, there is a second hole in the shift linkage, behind the starter.
:1:
And lubricate everything you can get at.
Make sure your clutch cable has a tiny bit of freeplay at rest. Not taut.
Make sure the lever at the back of the transmission is not bottoming out against the rear cover when fully pulled.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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I must say that the 6 speed tranny on my 2008 1200 Sport has been one of the most compliant transmissions on any of the bikes I've owned over the past 33 years. Zero false neutrals over 65,000 miles. Shifts nicely.
- 1985-era K100 Beemers shifted with few false neutrals, but were very agricultural in their feel.
- My 1991 airhead (R100GS) still shifts smoothly, with no false neutrals.
- the 1999 K1200RS .... shifted smoothly, but would often permit a shift up, then for some reason drop back to the previous gear. Unnerving!
- 2000 model W650 .... probably one of the nicest shifting transmissions of any bike I've owned.
- As stated above, the 1200 Sport is a good tranny, as was the Griso 8vSE tranny, though I like the Sport clutch take-up better.
- Honda CB1100 shifts ok, but there is some clunking if one isn't careful with the throttle. Clutch take-up is wonderful.
Of course, any of this could be unique to the particular bike, not prevalent across the model line.
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Only time I've had a bike transmission with/out false neutrals is when they were all Japanese made. Otherwise I've adapted to the bike I rode. 1 time between Arcata (coast) and Redding, Calif. I counted on all my false neutrals on my Guzzi 5-speed `81 CX100 to get me to Redding (inland) before I ran out of gas since I neglected to refill in Arcata. The road was mostly up/down over mountains and luckily I coasted into west Redding on fumes having used neutral between all my gears and turning off the ignition and coasting downhill when I could. There was no gas to be had between those 2 towns. :huh: Everything in life has +s and -s. :smiley:
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I find I need to be firm and steady on the LM2, only ever happens from 2nd to 3rd and usually if I try to rush the shift.
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FWIW, When upshifting.
Hold the gear lever up until after the clutch lever is released. Feed in some revs while releasing the clutch lever.
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Yep a firm steady push when changing gear makes sure you get the desired result. Just a matter of technique and holding your mouth right.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Shifting technique as the two gentlemen just above say, keep pressure on the shift pedal until clutch is released.
False neutral is specifically between 2nd and 3rd on my 81 SP, I can even feel two "clonks" when I shift. If I only get one clonk I'm in neutral.
Mine is most prone to false shifts going up so I adjusted my shift pedal so I'm having a comfortable move and don't overstretch my foot wrist.
Another way to minimize the issue is to ensure there is no slack in the linkages. Mine had oval holes where undersized screws were ratteling around so I ended up filling the holes in the linkage by welding and redrill the holes. And I put in round pieces of steel instead of the screws as they stay in better shape without the threads.
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After years of riding a '60 BMW, just about every other bike's shifting is worlds better. I did as Wayne described above on my Vintage; using the alternate hole in the shift linkage. That same juncture will also allow changing the position of heel & toe shifters so that the rider's foot may fit under the front of the shift lever (for bikes with floorboards). Whenever I hit a false neutral anymore, it's usually due to a half-hearted movement of my foot...
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It's funny.
The last few days I've hit false neutrals 3 times on my 2001 Jackal. I think it's my new shoes, cos it hasn't happened since about a month after getting the bike.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/k1hdeQ/Tank5.jpg) (http://ibb.co/k1hdeQ)
When I first bought it, there seemed to be a neutral between every gear up and down. Think I was too used to slick Jap gearboxes and gear shifters. My Jackal has a heel and toe shifter and if you pussyfoot it, you'll find false neutrals everywhere. Give it a long firm kick up or down and it's fine.
STOP PUSSYFOOTING AROUND!
The Guzzi has a Fiat car clutch and a sloppy, long gearshift. Stomp on it just hard enough and you'll never hit a false neutral again. (unless you get new shoes.)
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Shift like you mean it!
But nothing is worse that racing your Bultaco Pursang and hitting one of the 50 false neutrals they had.
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I got used to a reversed shift patern (down to upshift) in the '70s when I first tried it and loved it. Since then I reverse the patterns on all my motorcycles. When I first got my Mille I put a couple thousand miles on it before I reversed the pattern, occasionally missing the 2-3 shift. After going to 1 up, 4 down, I don't miss shifts any more. I think it was a big mistake when the lift to upshift standard was adopted, but I understand that not everyone agrees.
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You know, the area around Lake Como used to be Switzerland. Coincidence? I think not.
Hunter
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I dearly love riding my '95 Cali 1100i. She's performing very well this summer. But can any of my esteemed Guzzi gurus tell me why do I have these false neutral shifts?
Doesn't happen all-the-time, but too frequently and annoying. It usually happens between 2nd and 3rd, but not always. Although it seems to happen more at higher rev shirting, it can happen anytime. Once the expected gear is not there, as it's in some-kind-of neutral, I can usually tap it in with a second try, but sometimes it stubbornly refuses to acquire desired gear and I must down-shift and try again.
Am I missing something here?
Just curious, How long have you had the bike? Long time and this just began, or short time and you are having trouble?
If long time and it has started acting differently, check the ball joints on the linkage to make sure they are not loose. Others have already suggested moving to the outer hole. I second that.
If the bike is new to you and you are learning it, then everyone has pretty much covered it.
John Henry
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Quote from: Triple Jim on Today at 05:17:26 PM (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=92335.msg1457672#msg1457672)I got used to a reversed shift patern (down to upshift) in the '70s when I first tried it and loved it. Since then I reverse the patterns on all my motorcycles. When I first got my Mille I put a couple thousand miles on it before I reversed the pattern, occasionally missing the 2-3 shift. After going to 1 up, 4 down, I don't miss shifts any more. I think it was a big mistake when the lift to upshift standard was adopted, but I understand that not everyone agrees.
___________________ ___________________ ___________________ _______
>I wholly agree and have all my bikes 'reversed'. When I modified the Guzzi, I found the 2nd to 3rd neutral slightly less of a problem, probably due to pushing down being naturally a firmer action than pulling up.
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When I modified the Guzzi, I found the 2nd to 3rd neutral slightly less of a problem, probably due to pushing down being naturally a firmer action than pulling up.
Yes, I think that's the reason too, but I almost never miss a shift with the reversed pattern, compared to what seemed like about 25% of the time with the stock pattern.
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Been there got the shirt!
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/rCzGNcYVRpIFjjDAu5M6a88DjqLycumvmBDBjhfPiK23TwHW8K9MhNuCQWnP_emEYBwKUwW2b1NO672_wxQCjVNY_tBX8UvbyI9G0Z4PYBCIhpksUx6-ynwZ1T9CKjNGOhrpJxdyqgyxodyYs2ZhW2xmMUDfemPgWD4iKGDWTEZUYe9S1RrvtvHWiNcz6x4YN-Qyv5tT0-bt9j1FVDUAbk6V4A5w-DOh5ng2_bywGdMe1iNJ8C5O5qKE0ry8JX4EFURbzqDLP50vESzrgZUkWGZu8SuFaHP5l-LHaeD2eYBNEu994Mz0KuvgEpcRM4M_ZPuW25uEnsilVSqkfrBbw4wGvIascgzKcqRjig0FGzQIyR9x7Fkc5U_CznOPh-XUlOACvxSua09LZgsYjdWC4tJ-TdLo_EZt4SfZc-UMWjloTX4SsI-6HRuKDv-3jPiL5lAvLhhsYaL57XJiCClEtqREmZhAzqo2V-jJbcDXmTLJh1z_X0PNUwziJykr9mMlNzCNPdxxYiIJU8hTMuL-JfESJI83tGShGS91HnKRw0i5gwVG_fatCn06FFT6eiUMe5fK4VVcnQn9H6TfJ9wm9L356x7UNJqvPjd8GEfiFnk=s640-no)
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As I recall the shifter on our `71 Ambassador 4 spd. was the opposite direction of all our 5 spd. Guzzis. So sometimes on either pattern I'd forget and be down shifting when I thought I was upshifting. :shocked: Got to the point as soon as the clutch plates started to engage I'd then know if I just made a mistake and squeeze the clutch in again before things got harrier! :evil:
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Got to the point as soon as the clutch plates started to engage I'd then know if I just made a mistake and squeeze the clutch in again before things got harrier!
You probably knew before that. When you shift the wrong way, there's usually more clank sound from the transmission as the dogs engage and spin the guts up to a zillion RPM.
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You probably knew before that. When you shift the wrong way, there's usually more clank sound from the transmission as the dogs engage and spin the guts up to a zillion RPM.
On my `71 Ambo. the clank between gears didn't matter which way you shifted it. When I 1st rode a 750 Breva I thought it's tranny shifted like a Swiss watch compared to all the Guzzis I'd ridden before it. :huh: But it wasn't even as good as some Jap. trannies made before it I'd ridden. Definitely an improvement tho. :thumb:
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But it wasn't even as good as some Jap. trannies made before it I'd ridden. Definitely an improvement tho. :thumb:
Oh definitely. My old H2's transmission is a whole world smoother to shift than my Mille's. You really don't need to use the clutch to shift most of the time.
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From an old joke thread on this forum:
Guzzi neutrals are just like cops: you can never find them when you need them, but they are always around when you don't!
But, seriously, like others mentioned earlier, taking all the play out of the linkages, lubricating all the moving joints and being decisive with your boot will make false neutrals a rare occurrence.
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Many thanks for the response to my "false neutral"question. I am enjoying this bike beyond description, but it also helps beyond description to have the generous shared wisdom-of-experience on Wild Guzzi. Thanks for the help.
BOAT
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Many thanks for the response to my "false neutral"question. I am enjoying this bike beyond description, but it also helps beyond description to have the generous shared wisdom-of-experience on Wild Guzzi. Thanks for the help.
BOAT
It is why I am a donor. I like having this place to hang out, and helping with the light bill is the least I could do.
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My 2002 Ural Patrol had neutrals between every gear, on occasion.
It was maddening at times. Then I traded the thing, after the engine grenaded itself and I had to rebuild it.
I had a total of 5,000 miles on it and according to my maintenance records, I had done 5 hours of maintenainence
on it for every hour ridden. I don't remember how many times I had to call for assistance just to get it home.
The only bike I have had with a worse record than that is my Rokon. I bought both of them brand new.
The Rokon was a total waste of money. It has a neutral between every gear too but it is designed that way.
Oh, and to change gears you have to be stopped.
BTW the Ural had a lever on the right side of the bike that was for the purpose of finding the correct neutral.
So the Ruskies knew about the problem and had a way to fix it.
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Some explanation off the Guzzi gearshift neutral issue. It is an inherent part of the design. The shifter drum has to turn a long way to shift the forks and between the gear detention notches is all a variable position neutral. You have to shift the gear lever all the way to rotate the drum to the next notch.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/hC1hB5/image.jpg) (http://ibb.co/hC1hB5)
This is a Guzzi shifter drum. All the distance between the notches at the left side is a false neutral
A more modern design has a roller detent system and once the roller reaches the top of the ramp the roller runs down the ramp to complete the gear shift. Much harder to balance the roller on top of the ramp if you don't shift the lever far enough.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/jUOJjQ/image.jpg) (http://ibb.co/jUOJjQ)
image hosting for ebay (http://imgbb.com/)
This is an Aprillia shift drum.
Hope this helps. You can be relaxed when riding a Guzzi but you must always give the gear lever a firm solid action.
Cheers,voncrump.
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My last post might need a bit more explanation for those who don't know how these thing work. The shifter drum must be turned to an exact position and held in that position. This crude drawing is only to explain how the drum is held in those positions. The way the drum is rotated and the gears are shifted is a whole lot more complicated.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/bJK5yk/image.jpg) (http://ibb.co/bJK5yk)
It's not the best of designs but we are stuck with it..
Cheers, voncrump
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Voncrump, Now that was an excellent explanation.
Shift it w/authority. And that's why you need good linkage.
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I dearly love riding my '95 Cali 1100i. She's performing very well this summer. But can any of my esteemed Guzzi gurus tell me why do I have these false neutral shifts?
Doesn't happen all-the-time, but too frequently and annoying. It usually happens between 2nd and 3rd, but not always. Although it seems to happen more at higher rev shirting, it can happen anytime. Once the expected gear is not there, as it's in some-kind-of neutral, I can usually tap it in with a second try, but sometimes it stubbornly refuses to acquire desired gear and I must down-shift and try again.
Am I missing something here?
Last time the final drive oil/gearbox oil was changed? The factory interval is a bit too long IMO tend to change it with the oil and seems to reduce the occurrence of false neutrals.
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Voncrump, Now that was an excellent explanation.
Shift it w/authority. And that's why you need good linkage.
It was. Kidsmoke from Indiana is dealing with the "good linkage" problem as we speak.
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Voncrump, nice explanation. Just to clarify: The shift between 2nd and 3rd seems to be the place where most false neutrals occur. To me it also feels like there's a little more to "fall in place" there, is that linked to the drum design also?
As for oil influence, I rode 6000km on unknown oil, then changed to Castrol Syntrans 75W140 which is API-GL5 approved and found way fewer false neutrals. I can not say it's linked to the oil alone since I changed to Tarozzi rearsets with multiple adjustment shift pedal and reworked the shift linkages to reduce slack... all in all a combo where after 3000km I in average experience one false neutral per tank now
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Gidday Perter.
When the gears are shifted from 2nd to third gear two shifter forks are being moved.
It goes like this, N to 1st one fork moves. 1st to 2nd one fork. 2nd to 3rd two forks. 3rd to 4th one fork. 4th to 5th two forks.
Moving two forks takes more effort to shift and I have seen a build up of varnish on the rod that the shifter forks slide on.
This can cause more effort to be needed to shift the gears.
Be really carefull with any oil additives that may coat the internal parts.
Also make sure your clutch is freeing up properly. If the clutch is dragging it may load the drive dogs and make things hang up slightly.
Otherwise if you have the right oil, the clutch is adjusted correctly and the linkages are moving freely then give the lever a good heave every shift. You won't damage anything.
Otherwise sell that troublesome SP to me and buy a Honyamakawazuki.
Cheers,voncrump.
By the way I use 75-140 gear oil in my 1100 Sport straight cut box.
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From an old joke thread on this forum:
Guzzi neutrals are just like cops: you can never find them when you need them, but they are always around when you don't!
But, seriously, like others mentioned earlier, taking all the play out of the linkages, lubricating all the moving joints and being decisive with your boot will make false neutrals a rare occurrence.
This is the minimum that is required to assure consistent smooth shifting. I took it to an other level by completely replacing the entire factory linkage with all of its sloppyness with a linkage that I fabricated out of Heim joints. On my old 03 Stone Touring with the 5-speed, it made all the difference. I never found false neutral again and the shifting of that 5-speed became absolutely precise.
Skippy