Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: redhawk47 on September 15, 2017, 10:41:49 PM
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I was not finding definitive information whether my 2016 V7II Stone had a half plastic fuel filter. So I was concerned about the fuel filter on my 2016 V7II Stone and I decided to change it. I have a station that sell E0 premium that is three miles from my house so that is what I normally use, but when traveling I use tier one fuel that usually is E10.
The filter was a steel/plastic combo and the plastic was brown and swollen but not cracked or leaking.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/eEE2PQ/P1000433_L.jpg) (http://ibb.co/eEE2PQ)
As I was swapping out the filter I noticed this:
(http://thumb.ibb.co/jdayyk/P1000434a_L.jpg) (http://ibb.co/jdayyk)
What is it? I found no reference to in the parts or service manuals, and no hoses in the tank to connect to it.
A guess is that it is a check/pressure relief valve for the return line from the fuel injectors, a feature not found on V7IIs.
Anybody know what it is?
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What is it? I found no reference to in the parts or service manuals, and no hoses in the tank to connect to it.
A guess is that it is a check/pressure relief valve for the return line from the fuel injectors, a feature not found on V7IIs.
Anybody know what it is?
Chances are you are correct - but you're looking at it the wrong way. On modern fuel injection systems, what we used to think of as the high pressure rail doesn't use a return line. Instead, the 'rail' is everything from the fuel pump all the way to the injectors, all being maintained at pressure. It simplifies things since it eliminates an extra line and an external pressure valve. Instead, the pressure relief valve sits on the part of the high pressure rail that's inside the tank, and releases an appropriate amount of fuel back into the tank to maintain a steady pressure within the rail. This does mean that the tank ends up being under a certain amount of internal pressure itself, which may contribute to some other odd symptoms.
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What is it? I found no reference to in the parts or service manuals, and no hoses in the tank to connect to it.
A guess is that it is a check/pressure relief valve for the return line from the fuel injectors, a feature not found on V7IIs.
Anybody know what it is?
Chances are you are correct - but you're looking at it the wrong way. On modern fuel injection systems, what we used to think of as the high pressure rail doesn't use a return line. Instead, the 'rail' is everything from the fuel pump all the way to the injectors, all being maintained at pressure. It simplifies things since it eliminates an extra line and an external pressure valve. Instead, the pressure relief valve sits on the part of the high pressure rail that's inside the tank, and releases an appropriate amount of fuel back into the tank to maintain a steady pressure within the rail. This does mean that the tank ends up being under a certain amount of internal pressure itself, which may contribute to some other odd symptoms.
Err. No it doesn't. The amount of fuel in the tank isn't increasing so why would it pressurise? All it's doing is bleeding back fuel into the tank because the rail is fully pressurised.
To answer the original question, yes, that is the pressure relief valve. It is very crappy and it's spring is prone to rust and the plunger to seizure if there is a lot of moisture in the tank.
Pete
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As Pete said, it's the fuel pressure regulator. All it does is vent fuel from the pressurized system back into the tank in order to maintain a specified pressure in the fuel lines (which allows the ECM to accurately calculate fuel spray based on dwell time).
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Does it do anything on my V7II? It doesn't appear to be connected to anything. Is some plumbing missing?
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Most likely connected internally on the pump plate, don't connect anything to it, it's an exit.
I would blow air through the cap area drain & vent to make sure they stay cleaned out.
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If the swollen hybrid metal/plastic fuel filter were not replaced by the OP, any guesses on its life expectancy?
Survive the 2 year warranty or no?
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Yes it does something I controls pressure by bleeding it off back into the tank.
Doc I've pressure tested a 3-4 y/o swelling filter to 120 psi. I don't think the one I tested was ever going to fail.
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It is my understanding that all big blocks use the same Mahle fuel filter, except that it is all steel and costs ~6 bux more. If the plastic/steel filter fails after warrantee the entire pump/filter assy., mounting plate included has been declared by MG to be the replacement part. Rather than ~$65.00 try choking down $600 + labor.
I replaced mine (V7 III), @ 450 miles and swollen. I try to limit inconvenience . The same goes for the spark plug caps. R3~
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Doc I've pressure tested a 3-4 y/o swelling filter to 120 psi. I don't think the one I tested was ever going to fail.
Thanks, Kevin.
I need to research threads reporting age and/or mileage on ones that have burst.
Perhaps a very small percentage?
From this thread, perhaps the swollen appearance is not necessarily a concern:
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=88841.0
Not an easy fix alongside the road!
...although I suppose I could buy a spare filter and carry it in one of my side-cases.
...but might not be easy refueling the tank on Route 66
...although the Hualapai have opened a Unocal station in Peach Springs (53 miles from Kingman/36 miles from Seligman), but nothing between Kingman and Seligman along Interstate 40, about 70 miles
(http://thumb.ibb.co/bB3iyk/Route_66.jpg) (http://ibb.co/bB3iyk)
.
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Probably a right pia on the side of the road.
I've only seen maybe now four or five reports of failures in a decade.
Both the ones I replaced seemed fine (the latter one tested).
My hypothesis is if it's going to fail it's a defect and alleys would have. So if it makes it to say 1k miles and hasn't failed it likely won't.
There why I waited 3+ years both times.
But someone recently had one fail in under 600 miles.
We'll that would still fit my theory for now.
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My 1200 Sport filter failed at about 24,000 miles. If you are going to pull the tank, go ahead and replace it at your convenience. They are cheap and one less thing to worry about. Believe me, when you are on the side of the road it is a pain to do. I never got around to replacing the filter in my Stelvio, after 15 months and 20,000 miles, but it was on my list of soon to do things over the winter.
I do agree with Kevm that the ones failing are probably factory defective, such as the plastic lip was not crimped in properly, and as it softens, it lets go. I also used E0 most of the time except when traveling, which was considerable on that bike.
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As a mechanical/manufacturing engineer I feel that a plastic material that changes color and shape in its intended environment is the wrong material for the job. The changes are evidence that the material is failing. The fact that the filter has not yet failed in its function is not the deciding factor; the fact that it could fail at any time warrants its replacement.
Several persons have reported discussions with people knowledgeable of the Mahle product line that the KL 150 plastic/metal fuel filter is (1) not suitable for use for fuel containing ethanol and (2) designed for diesel fuel.
Does Moto Guzzi not read the user forums? The forums are probably the best consumer research tool there is. This issue has been going on for several years. There is a simple solution: replace the filter with an all metal filter.
Dan
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Doesn't hurt to list or link to the list of all metal filters that are suitable as replacements??
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It is my understanding that all big blocks use the same Mahle fuel filter, except that it is all steel and costs ~6 bux more. If the plastic/steel filter fails after warrantee the entire pump/filter assy., mounting plate included has been declared by MG to be the replacement part. Rather than ~$65.00 try choking down $600 + labor.
I replaced mine (V7 III), @ 450 miles and swollen. I try to limit inconvenience . The same goes for the spark plug caps. R3~
+1. 2 less things that can ruin your ride. Did both already on my V7ii.
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Then to further complicate things, There seems to be no rhyme or reason to what is being used other than perhaps what is available at the time of manufacture. My Norge had the half plastic filter yet my '09 Stelvio has a metal filter. Since I am the original owner, I know it came with it. Then we fast forward to newer bikes and discover the half plastic one still in use. As I had mentioned before, when I changed out the one in my Norge, the plastic part was very soft and pliable. It had not failed. Perhaps it may have forged ahead for some time, IDK, but I do know it is not supposed to feel like rubber. It was pretty easy to replace so I did.
I just wish they would stop using the plastic one. One of these days, I need to get a bore scope and have a look inside the 1400 fuel tank and see what they put in there.
John Henry
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Links I've clicked on to replacements give message 404.
As DaSwami commented, it would be useful to have a list of suitable replacements.
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A list of fuel filters that fit:
Triumph Stock - T1240850
AC GF61
BMW - 16 14 2 325 859
Mann MWK44
Fleetguard FF149
Fram G2
KNECHT MAHLE KL145
Motocraft FG-2
Napa Gold 3032
Purolator - F20011
Wix 33032
I used a Napa - about $6.
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When mine came apart in a multi-state trip, I called the Tulsa Guzzi service guy (Donnie) and he was so familiar with this rare event he had the Wix part number memorized.
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A list of fuel filters that fit:
Triumph Stock - T1240850
AC GF61
BMW - 16 14 2 325 859
Mann MWK44
Fleetguard FF149
Fram G2
KNECHT MAHLE KL145
Motocraft FG-2
Napa Gold 3032
Purolator - F20011
Wix 33032
I used a Napa - about $6.
Thanks
Just for curiosity, does MG not make an all metal one, a different part number than the metal/plastic?
Before I posted I checked AF1 Racing and a couple other on-line sources and found nothing.
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When mine came apart in a multi-state trip, I called the Tulsa Guzzi service guy (Donnie) and he was so familiar with this rare event he had the Wix part number memorized.
Enough to push a recall?
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Thanks
Just for curiosity, does MG not make an all metal one, a different part number than the metal/plastic?
Before I posted I checked AF1 Racing and a couple other on-line sources and found nothing.
Well obviously MG doesn't "make" any of them any more than they "make" any other fuel injection, suspension, electronic, or brake components, or bearings, or wheels, or...
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Enough to push a recall?
Not nearly enough, not even on their radar screen. Especially if the 1200 8V flat tappet fiasco didn't.
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Well obviously MG doesn't "make" any of them any more than they "make" any other fuel injection, suspension, electronic, or brake components, or bearings, or wheels, or...
OK, just for you, I will re-phrase:
Does MG sell all metal fuel filters for a v7 II?
If so, what is the part number?
BTW, in researching, the filter is 5/16" fitting in and out.
WIX is 1.936" diameter x 3.862" long, rated 20 microns and burst test to 60 PSI, $5.25 through Summit Racing
Fram G2 and Purolator F20011 are all plastic.
AC GF61 is $4.99 at O'Reillys, but is larger (2.17" x 4.55") than the WIX and may not be stocked.
Motocraft FG-2 is discontinued due to "low demand"
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Do they sell? Not that I'm aware of... They don't "see" a problem.
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Do they sell? Not that I'm aware of... They don't "see" a problem.
I am not even finding a part number for the stock fuel filter.
The only reference to "fuel filter" in the 280 page manual is on page 149.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/jsKdG5/Fuel_pump_assembly.jpg) (http://ibb.co/jsKdG5)
Nothing about replacement intervals.
The ultra fine print user-maintenance book indicates inspect (3) fuel hoses on page 215.
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I pulled the fuel cap assembly.
< 5 minutes
5 screws, requiring a 2.5 mm Allen
2 metal parts, below the bezel and two rubber gaskets
With all out, there is no view of the fuel filter or any part of the fuel pump assembly.
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I pulled the fuel cap assembly.
< 5 minutes
5 screws, requiring a 2.5 mm Allen
2 metal parts, below the bezel and two rubber gaskets
With all out, there is no view of the fuel filter or any part of the fuel pump assembly.
That's cause it's at the lower, left, front corner of the tank.
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You need to remove the tank, then remove the pump assembly to change it. Not going to happen any other way.
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I replaced my fuel filter with an all metal Mehle (?). Hamlin Cycles was able to order it for me.
As reported above, I had also checked the Mehle info via the web and discovered that the supplied half plastic filter, as specified by the manufacturer, is not specified for any ethanol gasoline.
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OK, just for you, I will re-phrase:
Does MG sell all metal fuel filters for a v7 II?
If so, what is the part number?
BTW, in researching, the filter is 5/16" fitting in and out.
WIX is 1.936" diameter x 3.862" long, rated 20 microns and burst test to 60 PSI, $5.25 through Summit Racing
Fram G2 and Purolator F20011 are all plastic.
AC GF61 is $4.99 at O'Reillys, but is larger (2.17" x 4.55") than the WIX and may not be stocked.
Motocraft FG-2 is discontinued due to "low demand"
Interesting. I copied the list from a different thread. Apparently it was a list of replacements based on size, and material wasn't checked.
KNECHT MAHLE KL145 and Napa Gold 3032 are all metal. I install a Napa and it fit perfectly.
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If the swollen hybrid metal/plastic fuel filter were not replaced by the OP, any guesses on its life expectancy?
Survive the 2 year warranty or no?
The filter on V7 III Special lasted 1200 miles and 1 week of owner ownership. The plastic had become soft and the separated at the seam from the metal. I suggest all filter be replaced now or you may find yourself stranded at road side like me. It wasn't the type of adventure I was seeking.
A rare occurrence, my dealer didn't think so. He questioned whyGuzzi hadn't gotten changied to an all metal filter years ago, after all this issue has been around since the US introduced corn piss into gasoline. Some may call it a rare occurrence because they themselves had not YET had a failure, but they're wrong.
Paul
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A rare occurrence, my dealer didn't think so. He questioned whyGuzzi hadn't gotten changied to an all metal filter years ago
So who is the dealer and how many has he seen?
Some may call it a rare occurrence because they themselves had not YET had a failure, but they're wrong.
Maybe some call it a rare occurrence because in over a decade (that's what at least 5k bikes/year production, so 50,000 bikes on the road - though maybe only 5,000 of those in the US) we've only heard about a half a dozen failures?
If it was a certainty don't you think we'd have seen a couple more by now?
Like I said I've examined a couple that have been in use for 3-4 YEARS with generally nothing but E10 in the tank. I removed one and immediately pressure tested it to 120 psi without failing. So that's at least 3x the peak pressure it would see in the fuel tank and it held no problem after more than 3 years soaking in E10. But you are convinced they will ALL fail?
Maybe it's horrible quality control and some are really that bad while others are not.
But obviously no, every one WON'T for certain fail.
I guess I understand wanting to eliminate it is a possibility. But on the flip side when I spend good money on a product I expect it to perform properly under warranty. A non-scheduled replacement of a long-life component, should it fail, will be replaced on the company dime, along with coverage of the tow and anything else I can get out of them.
If the problem is THAT bad and we all held the company's feet to the fire, maybe we wouldn't continue to see half-plastic filters that were so doomed to fail.
Aw hell, maybe we wouldn't see another valve train debacle.
But probably not. And shyte like that makes it an uphill climb for Guzzi to earn more of my business. Though I remain ever optimistic.
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Agree 100% with you there. That said, I still replaced mine as all that won't matter a hill of beans stuck somewhere on the road ruining a nice ride.
I chalk it up to experience.
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So who is the dealer and how many has he seen?
Maybe some call it a rare occurrence because in over a decade (that's what at least 5k bikes/year production, so 50,000 bikes on the road - though maybe only 5,000 of those in the US) we've only heard about a half a dozen failures?
If it was a certainty don't you think we'd have seen a couple more by now?
Like I said I've examined a couple that have been in use for 3-4 YEARS with generally nothing but E10 in the tank. I removed one and immediately pressure tested it to 120 psi without failing. So that's at least 3x the peak pressure it would see in the fuel tank and it held no problem after more than 3 years soaking in E10. But you are convinced they will ALL fail?
Maybe it's horrible quality control and some are really that bad while others are not.
But obviously no, every one WON'T for certain fail.
I guess I understand wanting to eliminate it is a possibility. But on the flip side when I spend good money on a product I expect it to perform properly under warranty. A non-scheduled replacement of a long-life component, should it fail, will be replaced on the company dime, along with coverage of the tow and anything else I can get out of them.
If the problem is THAT bad and we all held the company's feet to the fire, maybe we wouldn't continue to see half-plastic filters that were so doomed to fail.
Aw hell, maybe we wouldn't see another valve train debacle.
But probably not. And shyte like that makes it an uphill climb for Guzzi to earn more of my business. Though I remain ever optimistic.
The dealer was Jim Hamlin, give him a call and ask him about the number of failures he's seen. I can't answer that question for you. I do know is he had the proper all metal filter in stock and had me back on the road is less then an hour. A good man he is, none better! Other top shelf Guzzi dealers stock the all metal filter because they are aware that's it's at risk of failure. The replacement filter in my '09 Sport came from MI..
I'd rather spend the money to eliminate the chance of failure then risk getting stuck at roadside 1500 miles from home as i did. I had plans to replace it when I got home but the filter didn't make it that far. It more then the cost of a tow, extra lodging, meals, etc..., peace of mind is priceless to me when traveling. A new proper filter only cost a few $$ and replacement is not a difficult job, why not?
If the bike is only a grocery getter ya may want to risk it then push it, home when it fails.... :popcorn:
Paul
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Well Paul, I've certainly heard good things about Jim, so I will take that for what it is worth.
And I certainly understand why one might chose to eliminate the possibility.
But no, none of my bikes are only grocery-getters. Well, maybe the Duc could be if it actually had bags lol, but Jenn has been known to ride multi-states on it with a bag strapped to the seat so I can't rightly call it a grocery-getter.
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I doubt we've heard from all the 5k owner in the U. S. to provide a fair representation of the failure rate Kev. Some riders, like Kingoffleece, dodge the risk by taking preemptive action, as I did with my '09 Sport. We don't know how many other have the wisdom and desire to do the same.
Paul
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I doubt we've heard from all the 5k owner in the U. S. to provide a fair representation of the failure rate Kev. Some riders, like Kingoffleece, dodge the risk by taking preemptive action, as I did with my '09 Sport. We don't know how many other have the wisdom and desire to do the same.
Paul
After listening to the conversations on this subject at the 2015 national in NH I had my dealer replace the filter when I got back (1500).
The plastic part was yellow and squishy. No idea how long to failure but glad I made the change.
Gerry
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I doubt we've heard from all the 5k owner in the U. S. to provide a fair representation of the failure rate Kev. Some riders, like Kingoffleece, dodge the risk by taking preemptive action, as I did with my '09 Sport. We don't know how many other have the wisdom and desire to do the same.
Paul
Of course not, but we've made assumptions that it is the ethanol, and I'm not convinced of that (see my small sample data).
And if that's the case, then it's more like 50k owners that should be at risk. I would think we'd have heard MORE based on 5k or 50k. Not just half a dozen. But maybe Jim Hamlin and others like him HAVE seen a bunch more. I'm open to this.
That said Gerry - squishy and swollen doesn't mean anything if it's still sealed. I might have described the one I tested to 120 psi as squishy and swollen.
To be clear I'm not saying there isn't a problem. I'm just saying we're unsure of what it is and the extent.
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So who is the dealer and how many has he seen?
Maybe some call it a rare occurrence because in over a decade (that's what at least 5k bikes/year production, so 50,000 bikes on the road - though maybe only 5,000 of those in the US) we've only heard about a half a dozen failures?
If it was a certainty don't you think we'd have seen a couple more by now?
Like I said I've examined a couple that have been in use for 3-4 YEARS with generally nothing but E10 in the tank. I removed one and immediately pressure tested it to 120 psi without failing. So that's at least 3x the peak pressure it would see in the fuel tank and it held no problem after more than 3 years soaking in E10. But you are convinced they will ALL fail?
Maybe it's horrible quality control and some are really that bad while others are not.
But obviously no, every one WON'T for certain fail.
I guess I understand wanting to eliminate it is a possibility. But on the flip side when I spend good money on a product I expect it to perform properly under warranty. A non-scheduled replacement of a long-life component, should it fail, will be replaced on the company dime, along with coverage of the tow and anything else I can get out of them.
If the problem is THAT bad and we all held the company's feet to the fire, maybe we wouldn't continue to see half-plastic filters that were so doomed to fail.
Aw hell, maybe we wouldn't see another valve train debacle.
But probably not. And shyte like that makes it an uphill climb for Guzzi to earn more of my business. Though I remain ever optimistic.
I agree with you too Kevin. But having said that, I plan to replace mine soon. I don't trust the strange chemical brew we call gas in California. We have winter blend and summer blend and who knows what they are putting in it. Ethanol for sure.
The fuel strips that support the gas gauge on BMW R series bikes before they switched them to floats are notorious for failing. They are still mostly replaced under some sort of secret warranty. I had mine replaced on my 2007 shortly after purchase, and it is still going strong at 10 years and 60,000 miles later. Maybe, just maybe, that is because I use Chevron Premium almost all the time, with a bit of Shell Premium mixed in. Some folks are on their tenth strip.
Could be you have good gas.
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Of course not, but we've made assumptions that it is the ethanol, and I'm not convinced of that (see my small sample data).
And if that's the case, then it's more like 50k owners that should be at risk. I would think we'd have heard MORE based on 5k or 50k. Not just half a dozen. But maybe Jim Hamlin and others like him HAVE seen a bunch more. I'm open to this.
That said Gerry - squishy and swollen doesn't mean anything if it's still sealed. I might have described the one I tested to 120 psi as squishy and swollen.
To be clear I'm not saying there isn't a problem. I'm just saying we're unsure of what it is and the extent.
We do know that some rubber compounds decompose when exposed to ethanol. I suspect every 1/2 plastic filter in the US would show sighs of degradation if they were inspected.
Neither of us have enough empirical data to prove cause and effect, but I'd gladly bet those brave enough to not make the change are more at risk then those that do. As always YMMV.
Paul
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Kev said..
Of course not, but we've made assumptions that it is the ethanol, and I'm not convinced of that blah blah blah.
:smiley: :boozing:
Just change it out and forget about it. Whatever is causing it won't cause it with an all metal filter.
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Kev said..
:smiley: :boozing:
Just change it out and forget about it. Whatever is causing it won't cause it with an all metal filter.
:1: couldn't agree more Chuck. I replaced mine on the Stelvio for that exact same reason...
Mark
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Kev said..
:smiley: :boozing:
Just change it out and forget about it. Whatever is causing it won't cause it with an all metal filter.
:1: It's not something I would term as urgent, but don't let it go too long. New filter, clamps, and a "clamp tool" (I used tile nippers) and next time you are doing maintenance spend an extra hour for the piece of mind. Odds appear it won't happen to you but if it does... really can suck.
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You need to remove the tank, then remove the pump assembly to change it. Not going to happen any other way.
Was trying to only view the filter, from the top and it was not possible
"With all out, there is no view of the fuel filter or any part of the fuel pump assembly."
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Not sure what THAT means but you sure as heck can see the filter when the assembly is removed from the tank. In fact, it would be impossible to miss it.
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Was trying to only view the filter, from the top and it was not possible
"With all out, there is no view of the fuel filter or any part of the fuel pump assembly."
For 16 bucks, you can inspect through the filler opening.
USB Borescope Inspection Camera:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LEU9SRU/ref=asc_df_B01LEU9SRU5176947/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=395033&creativeASIN=B01LEU9SRU&linkCode=df0&hvadid=198112160800&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=1384865122776096697&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9015255&hvtargid=pla-320708499343
Or something similar. Or, visit a nearby auto shop and ask if they have one and can take a quick look in the tank.
John Henry
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Not sure what THAT means but you sure as heck can see the filter when the assembly is removed from the tank. In fact, it would be impossible to miss it.
I think he was hoping for a way to inspect it without removal.
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Not sure what THAT means but you sure as heck can see the filter when the assembly is removed from the tank. In fact, it would be impossible to miss it.
The point of attempting to view from the top was to save tank removal and disassembly to then find that I may have a metal one.
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For 16 bucks, you can inspect through the filler opening.
USB Borescope Inspection Camera:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LEU9SRU/ref=asc_df_B01LEU9SRU5176947/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=395033&creativeASIN=B01LEU9SRU&linkCode=df0&hvadid=198112160800&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=1384865122776096697&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9015255&hvtargid=pla-320708499343
Or something similar. Or, visit a nearby auto shop and ask if they have one and can take a quick look in the tank.
John Henry
Good idea, thanks
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When mine came apart in a multi-state trip, I called the Tulsa Guzzi service guy (Donnie) and he was so familiar with this rare event he had the Wix part number memorized.
Yep , besides you I know of three others that failed . Only one of those happened to a WG member .
Dusty