Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Seagondollar on October 04, 2017, 01:56:18 PM
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Two pages from MCN
1) "A new Moto Guzzi engine - Moto Guzzi will show a new concept engine at the Milan Show next month after Euro4 regulations made producing air-cooled engines much tougher."
2) From a link on that page:
"Moto Guzzi ready to show new engine concept
Published: Today 11:53
After the range was thinned by Euro4, Guzzi will show us new concept at EICMA
Moto Guzzi ready to show new engine concept
Tightening emissions standards are not air-cooled engines’ best friends, so it came as no real surprise when the adventure touring Stelvio quietly bowed out of Moto Guzzi’s 2017 range.
While the bike did have a following, it wasn’t exactly a sales storm (just 7000 units over its eight year run) and ultimately Guzzi said that the investment needed to bring the engine in line with Euro4 wasn’t worth it. The by-product of this is that the Guzzi range is a looking a little threadbare, with only the V7, V9, California and insane MGX-21 cruiser remaining – which begs the question: what’s next for Guzzi?"
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Well, we'll have to wait till November 7th to see what actually shows up in Milan.
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Perhaps a little vino would loosen some tight lips...
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Perhaps a little vino would loosen some tight lips...
Maybe - but I think those guys use enough on a daily basis to have built up their immunity!
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Well, we'll have to wait till November 7th to see what actually shows up in Milan.
And then a few years for it to make it to the states.
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I know people do not like change. And we new water cooled was coming any day now. I say a compact V4 and I don't mean 4 valves per cylinder, but actually :thumb: 4 cylinders. This would fit nice in a Stelvio and Norge with 125+ hp. Then a large V2 for the cruiser range with lots of torque. Guzzi has the experience to produce both but financially probably to hard to do. Looking forward to November........ :thumb:
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Part of me is thinking, about friggin time. The other part is thinking, how sad to legislate something as beautiful as an air cooled twin out of existence. Very mixed emotions on this one.
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They're seriously late to the party. I wonder if the final design is an in-house development or if they go jointly with someone like Rotax.
Just don't do what Indian did with the fake fins. That's just embarrassing.
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Four cyclinders...ugh, no thanks.
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They're seriously late to the party. I wonder if the final design is an in-house development or if they go jointly with someone like Rotax.
It's worthwhile to understand that "they" here means Piaggio, not Moto Guzzi because Moto Guzzi is today the historical name of an assembly plant that employs about 130 people in total, not much more. When Piaggio bought Aprilia and Guzzi came along for the ride, the first thing they did was drop Rotax as an Aprilia engine supplier and replace the Rotax engine with v-twins developed by Piaggio. A guy I know worked on those Piaggio/Aprilia engines during development in Pontedera. Piaggio does their own engines, for everything from Vespas to Aprilias to Guzzis.
If it were to be a four cylinder engine they already have the Aprilia V4, but I doubt that would integrate well into the kind of 'relaxed lifestyle' bike that Piaggio sees Guzzi representing. But I could be wrong.
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They should just buy the rights to manufacture the Motus V 4, it would be a perfect modern Guzzi motor. :grin:
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Piaggio does their own engines, for everything from Vespas to Aprilias to Guzzis.
Does Moto Guzzi not make engines any longer?
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Piaggio does their own engines, for everything from Vespas to Aprilias to Guzzis.
Does Moto Guzzi not make engines any longer?
Piaggio includes Mandello (i.e. "Moto Guzzi"), and my comment was in relation to Rotax (not part of Piaggio) not having supplied Aprilia since the Piaggio takeover years ago.
In answer to your question, the Mandello plant assembles engines from parts largely and increasingly manufactured by subcontractors. Guzzis are then assembled at Mandello using parts likewise sourced mainly from subcontractors. No Piaggio design work for any product is done at Mandello because they have no engineering capability, so design work is done at other Piaggio facilities. For Guzzis all powertrain design work for over a decade has been done at Pontedera, at the Piaggio main plant.
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Well, they've been doing a pretty good job of it, if the V7III engine and the Cali engine are anything to go by. - Pasta
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Piaggio is competent at engine design and development work, although not perfect, as the lifter issues on the Guzzi 8V engines demonstrate. I'm told they had quite a learnign curve when moving to larger engines, most of what they designed before 2005 was small Vespa engines etc.
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Well, they've been doing a pretty good job of it, if the V7III engine and the Cali engine are anything to go by. - Pasta
As long as we leave the V7 II's with the MISSING CRANKSHAFT THRUST WASHER and the whole uh flat-tappet 8V's out of the conversation, then yeah, they're doing a Bang Up Job! :boozing:
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Yeah, from the point of view of my day job, the flat tappet 8V (rollerization required, correct ?) is all on the design boys.
The thrust washer being forgotten during assembly just seems unlikely to me - but I'm a QA guy, so most of the world seems unlikely.
I wonder if it was something accidentally omitted by the design crew (unlikely) or added after somebody identified the potential failure mode in a post production startup design review. I've a difficult time picturing the manufacturing engineer leaving it out of his assembly instructions. Validation usually includes checking for leftover parts from the bill of materials.
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I don't care, I have my aircooled V2 already... only need to buy 3 more so each kid can get one when I'm not here anymore :grin:
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"concept " engine........... that will never happen
the only concept bike that really happened is the frying fortress and well..... to be honest.... it should not have happened...
Ippogrifo ? where are you ? LOL
Piaggio really killed the brand.
no sport bike
no enduro
just blacked out HD wannabe motorcycles..... keep hoping lol
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Yeah, from the point of view of my day job, the flat tappet 8V (rollerization required, correct ?) is all on the design boys.
The thrust washer being forgotten during assembly just seems unlikely to me - but I'm a QA guy, so most of the world seems unlikely.
I wonder if it was something accidentally omitted by the design crew (unlikely) or added after somebody identified the potential failure mode in a post production startup design review. I've a difficult time picturing the manufacturing engineer leaving it out of his assembly instructions. Validation usually includes checking for leftover parts from the bill of materials.
I see what you're saying, but the designs didn't change. Unless they're covering something up they are claiming the literally the thrust washer was left out of a build run (new guy?!?).
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Nothing has changed substantially in the bottom end of the smallblock since its inception in '78 or whenever. The thrust faces have always been a bit wear prone but it is their absence that promoted the 'Premature Death' experience with that run of V7-II's (From memory? I think they were II'S?).
The 'New guy' suggestion is probably right. You must remember these things aren't lovingly hand crafted by skilled artisans in a silent, Trappist monk like silence in some sort of temple to excellence! They are slapped together by poorly paid, semi-skilled production line workers in Noale who are probably more inclined to be thinking about what they'll be having for dinner or who might be shagging their missus while they're at work! The missing thrust faces were an oversight, not a design flaw.
Pete
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They are slapped together by poorly paid, semi-skilled production line workers in Noale
Noale is the Aprilia plant, just outside of Venice. I'd be interested in knowing why the small block Guzzi engines might be assembled there. Here's a photo of a small block engine in final assembly at Mandello. http://c8.alamy.com/comp/E7032C/motoguzzi-motorcycle-factory-in-mandello-lario-italy-E7032C.jpg
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I believe the small block motor have always been assembled else where, from the beginning. As I recall they came into being when DeThomas owned the company and he was slapping them together at one of his auto factories.
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Small block Guzzis (the bikes not the engines) were once assembled by Innocenti, during the De Tomaso era.
Here's a photo of a Mandello engine assembly mechanic peering into a partially assembled small block engine to ensure the thrust washer is missing :wink:
http://c8.alamy.com/comp/E7032F/motoguzzi-motorcycle-factory-in-mandello-lario-italy-E7032F.jpg
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When I was at the factory in Mandello last year it was clearly only a couple of assembly lines for bolting together larger components that were trucked in. I may be wrong but my understanding was that all the major engine and motive components, (Motors, gearboxes, bevelboxes etc.) are assembled in Noale although I suppose it could be any one of a number of Piaggio facilities. Certainly in the old factory things like the above mentioned components come in on pallets and are then batch assembled in various model runs. When we were there they had one line assembling V9's and one doing MGX-21's or whatever that thing is called. Presumably done so they could show off their 'Flagship' models.
If any engine assembly is being done at Mandello it must be bloody well hidden! :grin:
Pete
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Small block Guzzis (the bikes not the engines) were once assembled by Innocenti, during the De Tomaso era.
Here's a photo of a Mandello engine assembly mechanic peering into a partially assembled small block engine to ensure the thrust washer is missing :wink:
http://c8.alamy.com/comp/E7032F/motoguzzi-motorcycle-factory-in-mandello-lario-italy-E7032F.jpg
Actually that pic does look chaotic enough to be Mandello! :grin:
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If any engine assembly is being done at Mandello it must be bloody well hidden!
Guzzi engine assembly and test hasn't been hidden on any of my multiple visits to Mandello.
I was in Mandello last month, but only visited the museum. I've been there a lot of times, but it seems to me the last time I was actually in the engine assembly and test area was around the time the photos of that area were taken in the links posted above, around 2010. It is possible that after 90 years, Guzzi engine production was moved away by Piaggio in the period since 2010. Nothing surprises me with Piaggio, but I can't imagine why given that engine production was a core function of the Mandello plant, including engine production for other manufacturers.
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They're seriously late to the party. I wonder if the final design is an in-house development or if they go jointly with someone like Rotax.
Rather than Rotax (not that would be a bad thing), why not just turn a water cooled Aprilia V-twin the correct direction and connect a driveshaft to it. That'll require redesigned cases, but, the top end, crank, and most of the transmission can stay the same, as can engine management system (ignition, fuel injection, etc).
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As long as we leave the V7 II's with the MISSING CRANKSHAFT THRUST WASHER and the whole uh flat-tappet 8V's out of the conversation, then yeah, they're doing a Bang Up Job! :boozing:
Don't forget the Hydro motors (or did those pre-date Piaggio)?
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Don't forget the Hydro motors (or did those pre-date Piaggio)?
I was assuming that was Aprilia's or Guzzi's fault. But no, I didn't forget. I almost bought one new before there was a fix. It would have probably ruined me for the brand.
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They're seriously late to the party. I wonder if the final design is an in-house development or if they go jointly with someone like Rotax.
Just don't do what Indian did with the fake fins. That's just embarrassing.
Fake fins? The Scout has no fins, the Chief is air cooled. I wonder how long that will last.
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As long as we leave the V7 II's with the MISSING CRANKSHAFT THRUST WASHER and the whole uh flat-tappet 8V's out of the conversation, then yeah, they're doing a Bang Up Job! :boozing:
Hey they're designing Guzzis, remember? Do you want it authentic or not?
- P
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I don't care, I have my aircooled V2 already... only need to buy 3 more so each kid can get one when I'm not here anymore :grin:
I'm starting to think selfishly like that too. Thinking that another low k's 2VPC Norge to move on to when mine is stuffed, and that'll see me out if statistics are anything to go by, but I'll admit that is a short sighted approach...
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All these comments are reminding me I should just hang on to my old Cali III and build it into the custom ride I need.
The company has passed me by on what I want in a bike.
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All these comments are reminding me I should just hang on to my old Cali III and build it into the custom ride I need.
The company has passed me by on what I want in a bike.
Yeah me too.
But I just don't feel the "pull", towards another bike.
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The blueprint for a new range of liquid-cooled Guzzi engines already exists: When Triumph faced the decision to transition their popular, evergreen Bonneville/Thruxton/Street Twin line to liquid cooling, it was of the utmost importance to keep the iconic traditional appearance of the vertical twin. Therefore, Triumph designed a new range of engines utilizing liquid cooling, but also finned and closely resembling the previous generation of air-cooled engines. The fins, however, were not added strictly for decoration: they are functional and add a significant heat-dissipation capability to the liquid cooling system. This air-cooling add-on permits the use of a smaller, less intrusive radiator, and allows the new Triumphs to pass with scant notice of the new liquid-cooling system, so much do they resemble the previous generation of bikes. This new lineup has proven a tremendous commercial success for Triumph.
Moto Guzzi could easily go the same route, with cylinders/heads plumbed for liquid cooling, but equipped with fins so that the V-twin engine would look like a Guzzi. The fins would have a supplemental cooling function that would reduce the size of the radiator needed. This, I believe, would be the perfect way for Guzzi to transition to the inevitable liquid cooled engine: New technology, but preserving the traditional look. Triumph, whose Bonneville line is, like Guzzi, heavily retro, has shown the way with their recent successful transition.
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The blueprint for a new range of liquid-cooled Guzzi engines already exists: When Triumph faced the decision to transition their popular, evergreen Bonneville/Thruxton/Street Twin line to liquid cooling, it was of the utmost importance to keep the iconic traditional appearance of the vertical twin. Therefore, Triumph designed a new range of engines utilizing liquid cooling, but also finned and closely resembling the previous generation of air-cooled engines. The fins, however, were not added strictly for decoration: they are functional and add a significant heat-dissipation capability to the liquid cooling system. This air-cooling add-on permits the use of a smaller, less intrusive radiator, and allows the new Triumphs to pass with scant notice of the new liquid-cooling system, so much do they resemble the previous generation of bikes. This new lineup has proven a tremendous commercial success for Triumph.
Moto Guzzi could easily go the same route, with cylinders/heads plumbed for liquid cooling, but equipped with fins so that the V-twin engine would look like a Guzzi. The fins would have a supplemental cooling function that would reduce the size of the radiator needed. This, I believe, would be the perfect way for Guzzi to transition to the inevitable liquid cooled engine: New technology, but preserving the traditional look. Triumph, whose Bonneville line is, like Guzzi, heavily retro, has shown the way with their recent successful transition.
Aren't you describing big block Guzzi? Can this new engine be a smaller big block?
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Nothing has changed substantially in the bottom end of the smallblock since its inception in '78 or whenever. The thrust faces have always been a bit wear prone but it is their absence that promoted the 'Premature Death' experience with that run of V7-II's (From memory? I think they were II'S?).
The 'New guy' suggestion is probably right. You must remember these things aren't lovingly hand crafted by skilled artisans in a silent, Trappist monk like silence in some sort of temple to excellence! They are slapped together by poorly paid, semi-skilled production line workers in Noale who are probably more inclined to be thinking about what they'll be having for dinner or who might be shagging their missus while they're at work! The missing thrust faces were an oversight, not a design flaw.
Pete
Jesus Pete ............. :laugh:
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I think liquid cooling, with traditional-looking but functional finning on cylinders/heads, could be adapted just as readily to Guzzi's smallblock engines as to the bigblocks. Same principle, just a small difference in scale. I envision the water pump being driven off the rear of the camshaft, but the oil pump shaft would be another possibility.
The liquid-cooled engine I am hypothesizing would be distinct from the air/oil cooled engines currently fitted to certain big block models such as the (discontinued ) Griso and the California 1400 series. Water is a far more efficient heat-transfer medium than oil. Suzuki, for example, tried oil-cooled engines for a few years, then changed to water+coolant like the rest of the motorized world.
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How about just designing something new that works? Who gives a toss what it looks like? You can cover it up with lightweight panelling to make it look pretty. I just want light and punchy and a chassis that isn't like something from a Flintstones cartoon!
Pete
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From a strictly functional point of view, Pete, I think you are right. However, Triumph's undeniable success with preserving the traditional appearance of their iconic vertical twin clearly shows that the market places a major value on the appearance of the engine, the central component of a motorcycle. Guzzi's V-twin is no less iconic and it is hard to imagine an attractive Guzzi without the finned jugs jutting into the airstream. It's about marketing.
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IIRC, there was a concept engine shown back in 2013. It was hi-cam engine with water cooled heads. It would be cheaper to do that than build a whole new engine. Piaggio likes cheaper. :rolleyes:
That, plus the current tricks they use to get around Euro4 on 1400 would probably be enough. Same for the new V9 and V7III small block.
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How about just designing something new that works? Who gives a toss what it looks like? You can cover it up with lightweight panelling to make it look pretty. I just want light and punchy and a chassis that isn't like something from a Flintstones cartoon!
Pete
I'm not saying they can't depart from tradition at all. But if you go clean slate and only think about function, what makes the resulting product a "Guzzi" from the view point of a fan who enjoys the mechanical feel and performance of a current Guzzi product?
I.E. at that point, why not just buy a ________ from JAPanInc, Triumph, or Ducati?
What will continue to make it a Guzzi?
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Probably nothing if Piaggio have anything to do with it. That's why I think I've probably bought my last new one. I hope to be surprised but at my age and with my experience I'm afraid cynicism has well and truly taken hold.
Pete
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Probably nothing if Piaggio have anything to do with it. That's why I think I've probably bought my last new one. I hope to be surprised but at my age and with my experience I'm afraid cynicism has well and truly taken hold.
Pete
I'm not asking for a prediction, especially a pessimistic one.
I'm asking for what you WANT from them?
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Anything as long as its innovative, modern and different from everything else!
A Hi-Cam smallblock, wet or dry, I care not, would be a nice start. Put into a MODERN chassis, not the mid 20th century junker they're still using now.
Pete
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That would have to be some chassis. I just spent 4 days chasing several Guzzi riders thru the extreme twisties of West Virginia.
These guys are seriously skilled and quick and several were ranked nationally at one point. The motor and chassis along with everything else on the bike sure looked fine to me.
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Two things let it not be crap/beige (Aprilia have for in this department guzzi to for that matter) and bring it on!
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If the guzzi fathers can design these new concepts with the design excellent of the Japanese bikes and even the engineer perfection of Harley Davidson, it would be great for MG.
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Pete wants a Husqvarna Nuda with a Moto Guzzi logo on it.
Come to think of... so do I.
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Four cyclinders...ugh, no thanks.
I had a Honda ST1100 V4 for a while. It was a soulless appliance. I sold it and found my LMIV.
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SD, 140hp 4cyl V4 Guzzi would have lots character in my opinion.
Where is Rocker's opinion when we really need it? For that matter, Chuck from Indiana, Pete Roper, Lannis, Kev M (perhaps not)?
:wink:
Inquiring minds want to know!
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Let a Luddite offer up an opinion . There are many companies building motorbikes with the latest greatest technology , leave Moto Guzzi the brand for us folks who prefer a nice , simple easy to maintain motorcycle . If you want or need an Aprilia or a Honda , well , those bikes are readily available .
Dusty
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I was assuming that was Aprilia's or Guzzi's fault. But no, I didn't forget. I almost bought one new before there was a fix. It would have probably ruined me for the brand.
I like my Hemi Hydro.
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SD, 140hp 4cyl V4 Guzzi would have lots character in my opinion.
Where is Rocker's opinion when we really need it? For that matter, Chuck from Indiana, Pete Roper, Lannis, Kev M (perhaps not)?
:wink:
Inquiring minds want to know!
Such a bike would be lost on me and would lose my interest.
Give me character and ease of maintenance.
I just don't need that much HP and don't have any interest in more than two cylinders.
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Such a bike would be lost on me and would lose my interest.
Give me character and ease of maintenance.
I just don't need that much HP and don't have any interest in more than two cylinders.
That school of thought exactly mirrors my own, but...
Is it not true that if Guzzi don't start building jiggers with broader/mass appeal, then they just won't sell the requisite number of units, and the brand will go arse up !
Us old buggers can rattle around on our old jallopies, 'cos we'll be dead soon and it won't matter, but what are the new "plug and play" generation gunna do their nut over.
My guess in 2025, they won't settle for what we are attracted to. They'll want something that can go head to head with their peers.
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SD, 140hp 4cyl V4 Guzzi would have lots character in my opinion.
Where is Rocker's opinion when we really need it? For that matter, Chuck from Indiana, Pete Roper, Lannis, Kev M (perhaps not)?
:wink:
Inquiring minds want to know!
A fraction unwise to presume that Kev M's opinion isn't as worthy of digestion as the aforementioned luminaries.
I reckon his insight is refreshing on occasions.
Just sayin'.
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And yes, ladies and gentlemen, here we go again for the 131th time. What will Guzzi bring, what will they show on this or that expo in this or that year?
A REAL water cooled engine? Good grief, what a novelty, last time I checked they were only on the market for about 100 years or so?
Let's just wait and see (probably nothing at all, unless a pimped up V7 with some parts that Luigi forgot to destroy some 50 years earlier and were left on the shelves while putting together the original V7) :evil:
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There's some interesting stuff on the Guzzista forum, (ain't google translate grand)
"2 small 900cc cross tourers based on the small block of the V9, about 80CV, cardan with SINGLE SHAFT, LED headlamps (a beak as the eagle as a position light). Exhaust.
A more road and a more off-road version."
"A more "dressed" city version and the double round headlight and eagle led as a position light between one group and the other, mounted on the fixed fairing.
The other more offroad and "naked" with a higher mudguard and a solid-state steering assembly.
900cc motor, "generous" cardan, rear mono, black SX side exhaust, radial wheels (19-inch starter), tubular frame (no monotree, pardon) without cradle"
"production october 2018"
don't know what to make of it, or how reliable the source... (member 'VidiV')
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That school of thought exactly mirrors my own, but...
Is it not true that if Guzzi don't start building jiggers with broader/mass appeal, then they just won't sell the requisite number of units, and the brand will go arse up !
Us old buggers can rattle around on our old jallopies, 'cos we'll be dead soon and it won't matter, but what are the new "plug and play" generation gunna do their nut over.
My guess in 2025, they won't settle for what we are attracted to. They'll want something that can go head to head with their peers.
That it's no interest to me doesn't mean they shouldn't do it.
That said I don't think they "need" it, and I don't think they'll do it.
I'm not sure Piaggio needs or wants Guzzi to be BMW, Triumph, or even Ducati.
They may not want to grow the brand to those levels. I can't say.
And certainly many here don't want them to be ubiquitous either.
That said I'm probably one of the ones who would rather see more of them and an expansion of their popularity.
And yes, a product like that could help.
Of course an expansion of products in the V9 range sounds like a good place to start. Especially if they broaden appeal with a better chassis and less polarizing looks.
(PS I suspect Low was not insulting my opinion, but more recognizing the lack of appeal such a product would hold for me.)
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A fraction unwise to presume that Kev M's opinion isn't as worthy of digestion as the aforementioned luminaries.
I reckon his insight is refreshing on occasions.
Just sayin'.
well, Kev's opinion is almost always presented, so there is little worry...... :grin:
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well, Kev's opinion is almost always presented, so there is little worry...... :grin:
There is that too. :grin: :laugh: :grin:
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The BMW water-head is only 35% water-cooled, if I'm not mistaken. The fins still account for 65% of the engine cooling. This formula would also work well for the Guzzi engine since it is already efficiently air-cooled by design.
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The BMW water-head is only 35% water-cooled, if I'm not mistaken. The fins still account for 65% of the engine cooling. This formula would also work well for the Guzzi engine since it is already efficiently air-cooled by design.
This would make me very happy. :thumb:
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The BMW water-head is only 35% water-cooled, if I'm not mistaken. The fins still account for 65% of the engine cooling. This formula would also work well for the Guzzi engine since it is already efficiently air-cooled by design.
So the've half arsed it! Personally I don't see the point if they are going to the trouble of building a new motor build a new motor, the old no matter how many you try to please somebody won't like it. The original Vtwin way back when was a pretty advanced design for the time. Things like electric start only high pressure oiling system etc etc. A half baked design will be shunned by the red suspender types because its not an exact replica of thier 850... (insert archaic old pussbox here) it will get panned in the press because it won't be able to go head to head with its direct competitors.
I think a few people here should do themselves a favour and go take a test ride on a 1200 monster/ multistrada or a KTM super duke or something similar. Bikes have taken a massive step forward even in the last 10 years. They need a platform that will get them through the next couple of euro emission cycles not one that will barely last 6 months that is at least in the ball park of what the competition is doing.
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I think a few people here should do themselves a favour and go take a test ride on a 1200 monster/ multistrada or a KTM super duke or something similar. Bikes have taken a massive step forward even in the last 10 years. They need a platform that will get them through the next couple of euro emission cycles not one that will barely last 6 months that is at least in the ball park of what the competition is doing.
[/quote]
:1:
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I think a few people here should do themselves a favour and go take a test ride on a 1200 monster/ multistrada or a KTM super duke or something similar. Bikes have taken a massive step forward even in the last 10 years. They need a platform that will get them through the next couple of euro emission cycles not one that will barely last 6 months that is at least in the ball park of what the competition is doing.
:1:
Maybe that would be appropriate for a some.
But then there are those of us who have, and aren't impressed or attracted to that.
Seriously a wet-head, monoshock smallblock sounds pretty good to me, as long as it's good looking and as fun/useful as my V7.
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Maybe that would be appropriate for a some.
But then there are those of us who have, and aren't impressed or attracted to that.
Seriously a wet-head, monoshock smallblock sounds pretty good to me, as long as it's good looking and as fun/useful as my V7.
:1: what this man said
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I'd be happy with the approach in the rumored powerplant from a few years back. If you recall, it was a 90 degree 1300cc v-twin intended for traditional transverse MG mounting, supposedly designed with input from Aprilia's engineers, and dominantly water-cooled with cosmetic but functional fins to carry the classic appearance. At the time, the speculation was for power in the 130+ HP range with a torque to HP ratio similar to existing MG engines.
Such a lump would be well-suited in a revival of the CARCs under the new EU regulations - perhaps a Norge, a Stelvio and a new generation LeMans...
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Could it be a resumption of this?
https://www.cycleworld.com/2013/06/04/new-moto-guzzi-liquid-cooled-v-twin-engine-work-in-progress
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Let hope not:
"As on the old Honda CX500, the gearbox of Moto Guzzi’s new liquid-cooled V-Twin will rotate in the opposite direction of the crankshaft to kill the torque reaction generated by any motorcycle engine with a longitudinal crank."
This would kill the whole character of the bike for me... :thewife:
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Why? As it is I only notice the torque reaction on my Guzzi and CX when revving when stopped.
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Let hope not:
"As on the old Honda CX500, the gearbox of Moto Guzzi�s new liquid-cooled V-Twin will rotate in the opposite direction of the crankshaft to kill the torque reaction generated by any motorcycle engine with a longitudinal crank."
This would kill the whole character of the bike for me... :thewife:
Does the contra rotating gearbox suppress the torque reaction ?
I've heard that sprouted a lot but am a bit hazy on it. I thought the torque reaction was due to the fact that the engine wants to spin around the crank due to the reluctance of the crank to want to spin against the natural resistance to motion.
I feel that it's like an electric drill that catches an wants to spin in your hand, the torque reaction is a function of the resistance to motion.
The equal and opposite force that the con rods are imparting on the crank. As the big end imparts a force on the crank journal, the cylinder head is being pushed away in the other direction, imagine the explosion in the combustion chamber, ( actually a controlled burn, explosions are detonation), the expanding gas pushes the piston down but also the cylinder head up. Just think, if you jammed the rear brake on and dumped the clutch in gear, the entire bike would want to rotate with the wheel motionless.
The contra rotating mass of the gearbox will work to equalise gyroscopic forces, but as I see it, spinning the gearbox the other way would have no effect on negating torque reaction.
Dissenting views ? Or should we start a thread, informed comment would be good.
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Why? As it is I only notice the torque reaction on my Guzzi and CX when revving when stopped.
It's actually more pronounced when transmission is under load in motion, but the bike immediately, (deep breath), countersteers to initiate a lean the other way, and the forces remain in balance.
But happy to chat about it....
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Why? As it is I only notice the torque reaction on my Guzzi and CX when revving when stopped.
I do this a lot :drool: also at low idle you can feel every power stroke :azn: and I want to keep that...
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Does the contra rotating gearbox suppress the torque reaction ?
I've heard that sprouted a lot but am a bit hazy on it. I thought the torque reaction was due to the fact that the engine wants to spin around the crank due to the reluctance of the crank to want to spin against the natural resistance to motion.
I feel that it's like an electric drill that catches an wants to spin in your hand, the torque reaction is a function of the resistance to motion.
The equal and opposite force that the con rods are imparting on the crank. As the big end imparts a force on the crank journal, the cylinder head is being pushed away in the other direction, imagine the explosion in the combustion chamber, ( actually a controlled burn, explosions are detonation), the expanding gas pushes the piston down but also the cylinder head up. Just think, if you jammed the rear brake on and dumped the clutch in gear, the entire bike would want to rotate with the wheel motionless.
The contra rotating mass of the gearbox will work to equalise gyroscopic forces, but as I see it, spinning the gearbox the other way would have no effect on negating torque reaction.
Dissenting views ? Or should we start a thread, informed comment would be good.
It's all to do with the spinning bits, not the up and down bits ;)
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It's all to do with the spinning bits, not the up and down bits ;)
Lovely !
Do I just accept that and go and put the kettle on, or can you enlighten me ?
See new post..
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" I thought the torque reaction was due to the fact that the engine wants to spin around the crank due to the reluctance of the crank to want to spin against the natural resistance to motion"
Newtons 3rd law. It's not resisting motion, it's the equal and opposite reaction. So the spinning creates a torque reaction in the opposite direction.
It's not created by the combustion trying to push the cyl head up.
There are forces involved there, but they, I believe, represent them selves as vibration.
Take a horizontally opposed engine. The torque just as much, yet if it was caused by the combustion trying to push the heads out, being opposed they would counter each other out? But the don't.
The torque reaction is caused by a rotational mass.
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So, in answer to the gear box, yes rotating that mass the opposite direction would help negate that effect.
I do need to pay more attention to what my Cali feels like. Before I got it people would say "be careful piling it on, as the torque reaction will catch you out"
Can't say I've ever had anything like that
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Sounds like the perfect question for Kevin Cameron over at CycleWorld. Those interested can submit over the web and that feature is in the mag every month (one of the few reasons to read it IMHO) and also more of them are on the web site.
I'm with kev m on a lot of this stuff. I've ridden all, or most all (nobody can try everything) and find 130 plus bhp and 27 riding modes along with 14 different shock settings to be completely useless to me. YMMV, as always.
In an earlier post I mentioned how I rode and followed several very skilled riders on "older" equipment, including a few of those Mot Guzzi things. Point is, in the technical and not so technical stuff all the newish high hp bikes can't gap the oldish Guzzi bikes, or even a very skilled rider on a 300 Verses!
It's difficult to see where 130-140-150 plus hp is really needed for riding a motorcycle. To each their own to be sure, but having had several "super go fast" machines I don't ever see one in my future again. Just my .02 worth and as we all know BIG numbers and 1/10 faster than last years bike means the current one is toast and we all better go buy the latest and greatest NOW if we want to be with it.
I imagine there's lots more discussion here. Wish it was with a fine Scotch and cigar!
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SD, 140hp 4cyl V4 Guzzi would have lots character in my opinion.
Where is Rocker's opinion when we really need it? For that matter, Chuck from Indiana, Pete Roper, Lannis, Kev M (perhaps not)?
:wink:
Inquiring minds want to know!
Yeah, a MOTUS-like bike from Guzzi would be super-cool. But a "mid-size" standard with modern suspension and a touch of classic Guzzi styling would probably be a better idea... they need another 1200 big block to fill the glaring gap in the lineup.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
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Same here, in 1996 I traded in my ZX9R for a Moto Guzzi LM3 . High power is useless and makes a bike boring (for me), around 70 hp is ideal.
For me the noise a bike makes is a very important part of the whole experience. And I found that the more throttle you give the better the noise. But to be able to do this in real life traffic the bike should not be too powerful. Have a WR250X at the moment, I love the noise it makes when you go through the gears almost redlining it (which is necessary if you want to get upto 70 mph on the local Autobahn here, only 30 hp).
This is a youtube of a bike similar to my very first (I had the 400cc version), the noise just gives me goosebumps: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emjPQhb8-nc
I really loved the noise the V7-II made last weekend during the testdrive :drool: my LM3 sounded and behaved like a steam engine, hissing and puffing through the carbs (K&N cone filters)...
Also have a 1982 FXB Sturgis, purely for the noise this old shovelhead makes...
With the modern powerfull bikes (used to have a R1200R) you just get a little 'pfffft' :sad: and you're over the speed limit.
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" I thought the torque reaction was due to the fact that the engine wants to spin around the crank due to the reluctance of the crank to want to spin against the natural resistance to motion"
Newtons 3rd law. It's not resisting motion, it's the equal and opposite reaction. So the spinning creates a torque reaction in the opposite direction.
It's not created by the combustion trying to push the cyl head up.
There are forces involved there, but they, I believe, represent them selves as vibration.
Take a horizontally opposed engine. The torque just as much, yet if it was caused by the combustion trying to push the heads out, being opposed they would counter each other out? But the don't.
The torque reaction is caused by a rotational mass.
Not quite empirically correct. But I'm not gunna pursue it.
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I think a few people here should do themselves a favour and go take a test ride on a 1200 monster/ multistrada or a KTM super duke or something similar. Bikes have taken a massive step forward even in the last 10 years. They need a platform that will get them through the next couple of euro emission cycles not one that will barely last 6 months that is at least in the ball park of what the competition is doing.
:1:
I've ridden my brother's S2R back to back with my Griso and I'm glad I have the green one. I've also ridden a Streetfighter S and the Super Duke. IMO a lighter, faster sport bike misses the mark when you are talking sub 100mph speeds. I'd rather have the solidness and punch of my Griso or something lighter and easier to ride. But that's me and my old self; the Griso is plenty fast when you are on the downside of the "go for it" days.
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I understand the appeal of these high hp bikes, just like a get the appeal of a modern sport chassis that is comfortable/capable.
BUT at the end of the day I have found time and again that it is more fun FOR ME to make do with less, to ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow. I can simply USE more (a higher percentage) of the bike (chassis and hp) if it is not as sophisticated and fast.
* I can rev the engine more.
* I can push the chassis closer to the limits
* I can do both while being closer to legal, or at least relatively sane, speeds.
* I have more fun doing that as opposed to constantly saying shit, I better slow down.
* I get a kick out of the efficiency too - higher mileage, etc.
Now don't get me wrong, like I said, I see the draw of the superbike, and if that's your thing have at it.
I'm perfectly happy on something that doesn't tempt me to misbehave nearly as much. And, if I'm honest with myself, I'm happier.
I also can't stand bikes that look to modern, insectoid, robotic, inorganic. Give me classic lines that suggest it is more primitive than its counterparts (and honestly it is in some ways, and that's fine). But put it all in a trouble-free, low-maintenance package - a gas-n-go neo-classic.
That's all I'll ever need.
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So the've half arsed it! Personally I don't see the point if they are going to the trouble of building a new motor build a new motor, the old no matter how many you try to please somebody won't like it. The original Vtwin way back when was a pretty advanced design for the time. Things like electric start only high pressure oiling system etc etc. A half baked design will be shunned by the red suspender types because its not an exact replica of thier 850... (insert archaic old pussbox here) it will get panned in the press because it won't be able to go head to head with its direct competitors.
I think a few people here should do themselves a favour and go take a test ride on a 1200 monster/ multistrada or a KTM super duke or something similar. Bikes have taken a massive step forward even in the last 10 years. They need a platform that will get them through the next couple of euro emission cycles not one that will barely last 6 months that is at least in the ball park of what the competition is doing.
Have you ridden the BMW Wasserboxer? There is nothing half-arsed about it. Not everyone needs 160+ HP. The Wasserboxer puts out 125 HP, but, more importantly, it puts out 92 ft*lb of torque, and has a nice broad torque curve.
If Moto Guzzi built partial-water cooled Vtwin with these specs that still looked good, I'd buy it!
Maybe that would be appropriate for a some.
But then there are those of us who have, and aren't impressed or attracted to that.
Seriously a wet-head, monoshock smallblock sounds pretty good to me, as long as it's good looking and as fun/useful as my V7.
:1: :1: :1:
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Agreed. The BMW wet head is quite a nice power plant.
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" I thought the torque reaction was due to the fact that the engine wants to spin around the crank due to the reluctance of the crank to want to spin against the natural resistance to motion"
Newtons 3rd law. It's not resisting motion, it's the equal and opposite reaction. So the spinning creates a torque reaction in the opposite direction.
It's not created by the combustion trying to push the cyl head up.
There are forces involved there, but they, I believe, represent them selves as vibration.
Take a horizontally opposed engine. The torque just as much, yet if it was caused by the combustion trying to push the heads out, being opposed they would counter each other out? But the don't.
The torque reaction is caused by a rotational mass.
The analogy about the horizontal twin thing is BS. The torque is felt when the flywheel is accelerated or decelerated. It is the input of energy into that mass, as the rods push, they are producing an equal and opposite force against the heads, so however many Newton metres it takes to spin the flywheel up is felt as an equal torque in the opposite direction by the engine mass.
Ask an engineer or a physicist. When there is no acceleration of mass, there is no resultant torque.
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Reading through this thread would definitely scare a non-Guzzi owner away.
Most Japanese engines will go 100,000 miles without ever cracking the engine open to fix something that they didn't do correctly. If only the Japanese knew how to style a motorcycle. They have to cheap out and meet a budget because they know their bikes won't sell if priced the same as the US and European competitors.
When the Japanese get the styling close to their competitors, they use cheap plastics and budget components to stay competitive.
My FZ-07 is an ugly bike, but it weighs 400lbs wet, has 75 hp, a wide seat and cost me under $6000 as a new leftover. It is covered in plastic. Plastic over a simple steel fuel cell. Plastic made to look like carbon fiber. Headlight set too low in front of the bike. Gauges mounted to the lower part of the handlebar clamp so you can't use risers with the handlebars. But, when I bought it I had weight constraint and 400lbs was my max weight. I had luggage constraints that the bike had to take Givi V35 bags.
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Rotax four stroke aircraft engines have water cooled heads and air cooled barrels. The idea in that application is that the heads need to be water cooled because of the power density of the engine at full power, but with air cooled barrels in the event of cooling system failure you can limp home at reduced power. Not so much a factor for a motorcycle engine but something to consider - one reason I prefer air cooled engines is reliability.
Re 'modern' bikes, I've been surprised when trying them that they often feel clunky and ill at ease in normal service. The fastest Ducatis and the water cooled BMW Boxer are both bikes I wouldn't buy for that reason. Conversely, something as basic as a carbureted SV650 Suzuki (an $1800 motorcycle, used) or even an old R100GS BMW is just a lot more fun for me as are many older Italian bikes.
Re Japanese versus European bikes in 2017, I'm afraid that after years of preferring Italian or German stuff for its serviceability, quality and unlimited life I now tend to prefer Japanese stuff for the same reasons. New European bikes with their dealer reset service lights, lack of service manuals, plastic fuel tanks etc have alienated me and I find the Japanese seem to have greater respect for their customers and haven't gone as far in that direction. The tables have turned.
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Rotax four stroke aircraft engines have water cooled heads and air cooled barrels. The idea in that application is that the heads need to be water cooled because of the power density of the engine at full power, but air cooling the barrels in the event of cooling system failure you can limp home at reduce power. Not so much a factor for a motorcycle engine but something to consider - one reason I prefer air cooled engines is reliability.
Not for nothing, but I believe BMW also made that point when they introduced the wet-head R-bikes.
Such logic goes a long way to making an air-cooled guy like me more open to the possibility.
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Most Japanese engines will go 100,000 miles without ever cracking the engine open to fix something that they didn't do correctly.
Most well maintained Guzzi engines easily go over 100,000 miles. Ask Karl Werth.
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Most well maintained Guzzi engines easily go over 100,000 miles. Ask Karl Werth.
I assumed he was referring to models such as the flat tappet 8V, or hydro Calis which MIGHT fit that bill after the recalls, but certainly didn't before.
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If the Hydro motor was a v-8 it would have 260 cubic inch displacement and 300 h.p. while being dependable and getting 40 plus miles per gallon.
The 1100 Guzzi engine is a very well balanced package.
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So the've half arsed it!
Not at all. BMW have kept their historical model alive in spite of Euro standards. Besides, they also offer a fully water-cooled model in the K1600 if that's what you want.
The V7 is Moto Guzzi's nod to the past, so if they can retain the model by adding a measure of water-cooling, everybody wins. The lesser output of the small block V7 compared to the R1200 means that the Guzzi should only require the addition of a small unobtrusive radiator. They can always create newer engines to please those who want more power.
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If the Hydro motor was a v-8 it would have 260 cubic inch displacement and 300 h.p. while being dependable and getting 40 plus miles per gallon.
The 1100 Guzzi engine is a very well balanced package.
Not sure what this has to do with the point that one still wouldn't have made it to 100k miles without replacing the valve train. Which is a fecking shame.
That said, I had to check your math - assuming no additional frictional losses the 260 cu in motor would be making a claimed 288 hp at the crank. I guess this is not a bad thing for a 4.4L motor.
But for reference the 220 cu. in. (3.6L) V6 in my Jeep makes that.
*shrugs*
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I assumed he was referring to models such as the flat tappet 8V, or hydro Calis which MIGHT fit that bill after the recalls, but certainly didn't before.
Yes I understand those problems, but I'd still say that most big block Guzzi's from its inception until today will easily go over 100K without a major rebuild. And you can still get most parts for those engines.
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When I did a recent overhaul on a 1200 Sport at 200,000km the only things it really needed, as in 'Had to have RIGHT NOW!' Were piston rings and k-lines in the guides. Yes we replaced a whole load of other stuff because it would of needed it before it had done another 200,000 and it was easy as we had it apart but those two items were the only 'Must Haves'. I'm pretty certain a roller 8V will be similarly reliable.
Pete
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Opened Facebook and first thing was:
(http://thumb.ibb.co/iU4Sam/Screenshot_2017_10_18_16_01_38_742.jpg) (http://ibb.co/iU4Sam)
Edit: Here is original Italian text:
(http://thumb.ibb.co/k82xam/Screenshot_2017_10_18_16_11_08_716.jpg) (http://ibb.co/k82xam)
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directly related to the above post.
Where's Nick, perhaps he can translate
https://www.insella.it/news/moto-guzzi-eicma-2017-arriva-un-nuovo-motore-142702
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^ You missed something important:
(https://immagini.insella.it/sites/default/files/styles/contenuto-news-big-anteprima/public/news_anteprima/2017/10/1280px-moto_guzzi_stelvio.jpg?itok=-Ua2oEdI)
"New Stelvio coming?
Moto Guzzi had to remove the Stelvio from the list because of its air-cooled engine that was not in compliance with the Euro 4 anti-pollution regulations. The vacuum that was formed in the range is absolutely to be filled, but the first step to launching a new model is to create a motor that has the rules in place for the rules. At EICMA 2017 we could already see it, perhaps as a prototype: recently Davide Zanolini, Piaggio's Vice President for Marketing and Communications, released an interview with Cycle World that "Moto Guzzi is working hard on a new engine. Radical evolution compared to V7, V9 units and 1.4-liter V-twin cylinders. We should be able to present to Eicma a real novelty, albeit at the concept stage. " The more informed they say that the new Moto Guzzi engine will follow a similar pattern to the BMW and Harley-Davidson: Mixed cooling system with liquid cooled heads and valves and air cooled cylinders, leaving a classic style touch to the engine. We are looking forward to the EICMA opening to find out if the new engine will equip the new Stelvio, as long as it is desired and desired by the guzzling fans, or another new model. To fool the wait, follow all the EICMA 2017 updates in our special!"
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Thanks for translation (and chick) :thumb:
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One big advantage both MotoGuzzi and BMW boxer moters have is not cooking the rider. Go read a KTM forum and see how many discussions there are about heat and cooked riders. That rear cylinder and its exhaust pipe put a whole lot of heat under the rider and also cook the bike's electronics, where instead the BMW and MotoGuzzi shed a lot of heat out in the open where it has little effect on the rider. Bikes that make 140hp by definition must shed lots of heat. I don't want that.
I like the idea of a mildly water cooled motor that maybe in small block form ups the HP to mid/low 60's. Keep the radiator small so it does not shed huge heat on the rider.
BMW changed the air flow through the engine on the water cooled bikes. Now it's top to bottom, so the exhaust pipe exits the cylinder by the rider's foot instead of out the front of the cylinder where the hottest part of the pipe is out front farthest from the rider. Low and behold, last time I test rode a water cooled boxer in slow traffic, I had to move my foot to outside part of pegs to keep from getting hot feet. So even minor changes for efficiency can have negative impacts. Let's hope MG keeps things mostly the way they are.
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High power engines do not by definition shed lots of heat. The amount of heat rejected by an engine is a function of the power it is making at any given time, which has nothing to do with the rated power of the engine, and the thermal efficiency of the engine. It is true that higher powered engines tend to be less efficient in low power operation, but I think the main reason higher powered water cooled engines feel hot to the rider is that heat is rejected by the radiator at the relatively low temperature of the coolant instead of the higher CHT of an air cooled engine. That means more volume of cooling air is required to do the job, and more heated air blowing back at the rider
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On a water cooled maxi-scooter the rider doesn't feel any heat from the motor under his butt. :thumb:
On an air cooled Guzzi w/o lowers like my CX100 you feel the cylinder heat by tucking your legs in behind the jugs or spread you legs out a little and the jug heat goes between your legs & bike. So you have a choice of which you want when. :thumb:
My `91 Suzuki VX800 w/inline 805cc V twin is water cooled w/narrow verticle radiator in front of motor and you don't feel it's motor heat at all even tho it goes up to 127 mph top speed. :thumb:
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"Albeit at the concept stage."
A wooden mock up does not a new engine or new model make.
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I think it was a mistake not to advance the 'Pig' motor in the 90's. It is still current by Guzzi standards, look what they're still using. The company would be way different if they went watercooled then but they are always broke.
this one
http://images.mcn.bauercdn.com/upload/180006/images/540x360/931235731103.jpg?mode=pad
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Rotax four stroke aircraft engines have water cooled heads and air cooled barrels. The idea in that application is that the heads need to be water cooled because of the power density of the engine at full power, but with air cooled barrels in the event of cooling system failure you can limp home at reduced power.
Your comment reminds me of Cadillac's Northstar engine with its "limp home" fail-safe mode which allowed the engine to continue running for a limited time without any coolant. Fuel would be supplied to only one cylinder bank in turn, and the inactive bank would be "air cooled" internally. This was made possible by the engine's all-aluminum construction and large oil capacity.
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Your comment reminds me of Cadillac's Northstar engine with its "limp home" fail-safe mode which allowed the engine to continue running for a limited time without any coolant. Fuel would be supplied to only one cylinder bank in turn, and the inactive bank would be "air cooled" internally. This was made possible by the engine's all-aluminum construction and large oil capacity.
Jeez, how bad are you engines if you have to design such an extreme limp mode? :grin:
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Jeez, how bad are you engines if you have to design such an extreme limp mode? :grin:
They didn't HAVE TO, and it's very unique. I think designed cause they could not because they needed it.
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Well, if Guzzi intends for the 2018 Stelvio to compete against the 2018 Multistrada they'd better have done their homework. Ducati is taking the 1260cc Diavel engine and tweaking it for intro in the Multistrada for model yr 2018. The emissions paperwork filings have already been done with California Air Resources Board (CARB). Old news now (came out in July) but worth mentioning. Hope Ducati "rounds upward" and calls it the Multistrada 1300, because 1260 would sound stupid.
I think the main reason is because they just couldn't tune out the torque flat spot around 5000-6000 rpm in the 1200 (1198) Testastretta DVT engine, so they're ditching the entire 1200 DVT motor and using the Diavel's version instead.
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moto guzzi will present a "concept " engine , i assume it will not be in a concept bike but on an engine stand.
How long do we have to wait for this concept engine to become a real motorcycle that can be purchased at the moto guzzi dealer ?
2020 ?
..i am not getting any younger....lol they better hurry up.
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Jeez, how bad are you engines if you have to design such an extreme limp mode? :grin:
Is it a reflection of the engine or the behaviour the engineers expect out of their customers?
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High power engines do not by definition shed lots of heat. The amount of heat rejected by an engine is a function of the power it is making at any given time, which has nothing to do with the rated power of the engine, and the thermal efficiency of the engine. It is true that higher powered engines tend to be less efficient in low power operation, but I think the main reason higher powered water cooled engines feel hot to the rider is that heat is rejected by the radiator at the relatively low temperature of the coolant instead of the higher CHT of an air cooled engine. That means more volume of cooling air is required to do the job, and more heated air blowing back at the rider
Now there are some semantics. OK, high power engines must have the ability to shed lots of heat.
And it is not insignificant. If a high powered bike gets 35mph, and a low power guzzi gets 55mph, both while cruising at 65mph, which bike is burning more calories and must shed more heat, thus being more likely to cook the rider?
While I see your point about the radiater heating a larger volume of air (but to a lower degree of heat), the KTM riders who complain about heat sure seem focused on the rear cylinder/rear pipe as being the source. As the V-twins have grown larger and larger, the heat problems have increased. Even at idle, a 1200 water cooled engine capable of making 160hp is going to put out significantly more heat than a V7 motoguzzi capable of making 50 hp, which is a big reason the 1200 will drink more gas for a given distance, at the same speed. My 690KTM, which is water cooled, but gets relatively the same fuel mileage as my V7iii, puts out no more or little more noticeable heat than the V7iii.
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Now there are some semantics. OK, high power engines must have the ability to shed lots of heat.
And it is not insignificant. If a high powered bike gets 35mph, and a low power guzzi gets 55mph, both while cruising at 65mph, which bike is burning more calories and must shed more heat, thus being more likely to cook the rider?
While I see your point about the radiater heating a larger volume of air (but to a lower degree of heat), the KTM riders who complain about heat sure seem focused on the rear cylinder/rear pipe as being the source. As the V-twins have grown larger and larger, the heat problems have increased. Even at idle, a 1200 water cooled engine capable of making 160hp is going to put out significantly more heat than a V7 motoguzzi capable of making 50 hp, which is a big reason the 1200 will drink more gas for a given distance, at the same speed. My 690KTM, which is water cooled, but gets relatively the same fuel mileage as my V7iii, puts out no more or little more noticeable heat than the V7iii.
Unfortunatly it not a simple question of power lean burn catlytic converters and emissions will have an effect of heat production as well as output of the motor.
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Found an article on the Italian language GPONE site just now. This is the Google translation. Let's see what they show in November.
"Moto Guzzi: to EICMA a "revolutionary" concept
The Mandello House is preparing an important novelty for 2018. New engine and lines will be the basis for future models
- Mon, 16/10/2017 - 20:28
The Eagle flies high. For EICMA, the guys of Moto Guzzi are preparing a juicy preview of what will be the future of Mandello's brand. Engaged for a long time in the revival of the glorious banner, the Pontedera Group is focusing its efforts to bring back what Italy's two-wheeler is a real symbol and which, for history and tradition, does not fear rivals. A 10-year project that has now reached halfway through its path.
Until now, the range of V7 and V9 air cooled stainless steel stainless steel engines has been refined, in addition to the big cruiser and the monumental MGX-21. Means that, season after season, have seen improvements in design, finishing and that they are now gaining space in the markets especially in the US. Of course there is still room for improvement, but the traced track seems to be on the right track: history, charm, tradition that is renewed, the peculiarities of the current Guzzi. But they are not enough.
PUNTO DI SVOLTA? - Certainty is that today, halfway through the development plan set by the Colaninno Group, it is perhaps ready for a new era in the Guzzi home. And the next EICMA will be a very important bank for the history of Aquila. Certainly the presence of a concept, which the Group men themselves call "revolutionary". The novelty starts with the engine - which will see a potential (1000-1200 cc) capacity - that will have nothing to do with current Big Bore or Small Block and will adopt a mixed cooling system with the head part cooled to liquid while lower air cylinders should remain cool for the cylinders. This will be the engine of the new course, as will be the concept built around it. Swollen stitches obviously on the type of motion, which could simply be a style exercise and that will launch concepts that we will see on the production of the near future. But we can not rule out a model that we will soon see on the market, with the period that seems ripe for a return of a crossover model (required by enthusiasts), or even a new and exciting cafe sport, a motorcycle concept today most demanded and that in a brand like Guzzi could find easy shore.
Whatever the novelty is, it is certain that, today as today, there is a need for a dynamic and evolving Guzzi. The road has been traced, now you do not have to see where it will take and wait in the near future, starting just from November 7th. EICMA will tell us everything."
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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Swollen stitches?
Can hardly wait for that.
Moto
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I think this quote tells us what many have been suspecting may be true:
The novelty starts with the engine - which will see a potential (1000-1200 cc) capacity - that will have nothing to do with current Big Bore or Small Block and will adopt a mixed cooling system with the head part cooled to liquid while lower air cylinders should remain cool for the cylinders. This will be the engine of the new course, as will be the concept built around it.
New engine, same basic layout but water-cooled heads. If they do as good a job integrating it as say Triumph did with the new Bonnie it could be beautiful and efficient.
I'll remain cautiously optimistic.
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maybe a water/air cooled engine with integrated transmission in the crankcase and multiplates wet clutch.
no more classic automotive layout
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Swollen stitches?
Can hardly wait for that.
Moto
:laugh: Beware the swollen stitches hiding in the shadows causing crashes into ditches .
OK , not my best work , it's early yet :coffee:
Hmm , motorbike remove from owner rightful result often in swollen stitches :huh:
Someone help me out here , there is a good pun here , just can't locate it :laugh:
Dusty
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Tootle your horn melodiously, and beware of the grease mud. :smiley:
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Thought the paraphrasing was obvious :laugh:
Let me try again .
Beware the perilous swollen stitches , do not operate before motorbike doctor examine .
OK , still not my best :rolleyes:
Dusty
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I know what it is. You will all be very pleased. Here's a teaser image for you :-)
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-FgqirZp_Q9Q/UtTnhueQSVI/AAAAAAAA81Y/Eg-eXJZMB80/s1600/moto-guzzi-prototipo-w4-.jpg
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I wonder if they could redesign the sump to integrate a radiator for the coolant? I've seen ventilated sump spacers not very effective but with coolant it's another ballgame.
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That said, I had to check your math - assuming no additional frictional losses the 260 cu in motor would be making a claimed 288 hp at the crank. I guess this is not a bad thing for a 4.4L motor.
But for reference the 220 cu. in. (3.6L) V6 in my Jeep makes that.
*shrugs*
That`s what they say it makes. $100 it doesn`t even make 220 on a dyno of your choice.
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That`s what they say it makes. $100 it doesn`t even make 220 on a dyno of your choice.
Well since, like all automotive manufacturers, the rating is at the crankshaft it's obviously not going to dyno the same at the rear wheels.
Of course the same would be true for the Guzzi.
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Tootle your horn melodiously, and beware of the grease mud. :smiley:
.... wherein lurks the dreaded skid demon.
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I wonder if they could redesign the sump to integrate a radiator for the coolant? I've seen ventilated sump spacers not very effective but with coolant it's another ballgame.
The early Honda race cars had a ventilated crankcase, with filters to stop the oil spewing out of the engine. Never heard that it was effective.