Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: kramer921 on October 07, 2017, 09:01:45 PM
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Hey guys,
I've had my '14 V7R for about three years now and absolutely love it. Because I take a fair amount of long-distance trips, though, I've lately been thinking some more power would be nice for longer rides outside of the city. I've done a lot of research on the BMW R9T and have taken it on a short test ride, but it just didn't have the character (at least on that short ride) that I love so much about my Guzzi.
That led to me seriously looking into the Guzzitech 4V 820cc conversion for my V7. While there's not too much info out there on it, it seems like most people that ride one seem to think it's exactly the bike they're looking for. If that's the case, it seems that, while by no means an inexpensive mod, it would be a much cheaper alternative to the R9T while maintaining everything I love about my V7.
So I suppose I'm asking two things here:
- Would those that have experience with them mind chiming in with their opinions?
- Because I live on the east coast (Philadelphia), I'm a long ways from being able to check one out in Malibu. Does anyone here on Wild Guzzi happen to have one that lives relatively close?
Thanks so much, guys! Apologies if this has been discussed repeatedly, but I couldn't find much info on them by searching the site.
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Why not try a Griso? Tons of money for a 70cc capacity increase on a Heron head engine would seem like a complete waste of money to me.
Pete
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Hey Pete,
While I've heard great things about the Griso, it's a far too big and heavy bike for me. At 5'8", 130ish lbs, and doing primarily city riding, it just doesn't suit my needs in a bike. One of the things I love about the V7 is how light and nimble it is, and it seems to me that a big benefit of the Guzzitech conversion, at least on paper, is that it sheds another 40-ish lbs off of the already very light V7.
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Makes sense, I was just thinking if you rode the R9Turd the big G8 is very similar in weight etc.
Other choice which would be very similar to the Racer apart from Ergos would be one of the V9 variants but I suppose the stupid little tank would be a hinderance.
Pete
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40lbs? How do they do that?
(http://i35.servimg.com/u/f35/18/91/78/64/image17.png)
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I wonder if anyone’s tried to fit a V7 tank to a V9?
Sorry, Kramer, you’ve got me head scratching. I don’t mean to thread drift....
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40lbs? How do they do that?
(http://i35.servimg.com/u/f35/18/91/78/64/image17.png)
thought the same thing. tell us how.
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do you have to have a Moto Guzzi? you sound like the ideal rider for a KTM 390 Duke. a little too cramped for me at 5'10"
(http://images.cyclenews.com/photogalleries/xlarge/1KTM390Duke-2.jpg)
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Hey guys,
My mistake; according to the thread on Guzzi Tech for the conversion, the bike they're renting has a total weight loss of almost 40 pounds:
"Final mods including Kineo wheels, Brembo Race brake upgrade and new Matris F15K fork kit. Come ride it at the link at the top of the screen, and/or now taking orders on complete turn-key bikes. 65% power increase and 37 lbs lighter than stock."
As for the R9T vs the Griso, according to the specs, the wet weight of the R9T is 489 lbs, while the Griso is 557. At my size, that's a significant difference.
There's also the issue of aesthetics. I much prefer the V7 and the R9t to the Griso (and the KTM) in that respect.
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I wonder if anyone�s tried to fit a V7 tank to a V9?
Sorry, Kramer, you�ve got me head scratching. I don�t mean to thread drift....
Oh, and Beetle, from what I've seen, Guzzi Tech has also done that. It seems like it was a lot of work to get the V9 looking like the V7.
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I wonder if anyone�s tried to fit a V7 tank to a V9?
Sorry, Kramer, you�ve got me head scratching. I don�t mean to thread drift....
Yes, the guzzi tech guy has done this and it’s apart of his rental fleet I believe
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65% power increase! I have a bridge I can sell you. :grin:
Pete
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65% power increase! I have a bridge I can sell you. :grin:
Pete
Well, unless I'm missing something here, or you think he's outright faking the image, the dyno chart at http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/gt-rx%C2%AE-v7r-820-quattrovalvole-info-dyno-runs.15435/ seems to clearly support his claim of a significant power increase over stock.
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Sorry, I don't bother with that source of 'Information'.
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65% seems a stretch. Can you post the dyno chart here? I�m not a GT forum member. Thanks!
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A stretch? It's taughter than the string on a compound bow!
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65% seems a stretch. Can you post the dyno chart here? I�m not a GT forum member. Thanks!
Sorry, I don't have access to a computer right now, so I'm doing this from my phone, but see if this link works for you:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3cpl8dc6vmebnqo/Photo%20Oct%2008%2C%202%2035%2047%20AM.jpg?dl=0
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I wonder if anyone�s tried to fit a V7 tank to a V9?
Sorry, Kramer, you�ve got me head scratching. I don�t mean to thread drift....
yes
(http://thumb.ibb.co/dimg6G/IMG_0468.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dimg6G)
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Wait. Lets do the math. A V7 makes about 40 RWHP on a good day. A V9 makes around 53 RWHP. That�s 25% more ponies. Guesstimating the 820 jobby is 5% better than a stock V9, that�s about 56 RWHP. That�s around 30% power increase over a stock V7. We know most dyno�s are calibrated with dwarf miniature horses, so a 65% power increase is well within fantasy claim expectations. For someone who claims to be able to get 140 RWHP from a single throttle body 8V, it well within the bounds of the ridiculous we have come to expect from the self-proclaimed guru. I quake at his magnificence.
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Oh ho! I see the chart. Thanks for posting. 58 RWHP. That’s a 41% increase.
41 is not equal to 65.
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Oh ho! I see the chart. Thanks for posting. 58 RWHP. That�s a 41% increase.
41 is not equal to 65.
Well, I'm not about to argue on the guy's behalf. I don't know much about it other than what I've read, which is why I'm seeking opinions from those that have ridden these modded bikes.
What I will say, though, is that while I personally never claimed it made a 65% increase in power (what the hell do I know?), I did say the dyno chart shows a significant increase in power, and I'd call 41% significant.
It seems to me that, if you're looking for more power but love the V7 platform, there unfortunately aren't many other options.
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Yes, it will make more power. Whether it’s worth the investment is solely your decision. I would suggest tractability/ride would come into question.
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- Because I live on the east coast (Philadelphia), I'm a long ways from being able to check one out in Malibu. Does anyone here on Wild Guzzi happen to have one that lives relatively close?
I'd ride a Duc Monster in the 800-1000 size for a prospective in a less expensive option. (I prefer the S2R over the S4R series because I do my own maintenance)
Then I'd book a flight to LA in the winter to visit and do a day long rental test ride.
For me, having a "spare" bike is a good thing. I look at bikes as "golf clubs"
Mark
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Disclaimer :- I have no skin in this game, what interests me is the math
I think the math has been reversed where he has taken the Original HP as a percentage of the Mod'ed HP.
Looking at the graph Original is 36hp and Mod'ed is approx 54 (except for the little bump @7K RPM) :huh:
Mistakes happen :bike-037:
Adam
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Even if we aren't talking the numbers game here... who makes more power, etc...
You should take a look into the overwhelming amount of top end failures found in the Lario.
This "kit" from GT is a modified Lario/Imola parts bin special.
Will GTs kit more reliable? Maybe... but some good people here (Chuck in Indiana) have tried the 4v small block game and still been let down.
So you *could* throw tons of money on an engine upgrade that relies on custom and outdated parts, or you could...
1. Enjoy the bike as is, most of the power increase would only be relevant for high speed runs, and you said you are a city rider right?
2. Sell or trade it in for a new V7 III, which has a power increase and will have factory support, no need for fancy fueling etc.
(http://redirect.viglink.com/?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_150358946456417&key=e9201d98d6f3b22e0a1015a67409f18a&libId=j6qm9h9i010160fy000DAmj0l59zn&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.motorcycle.com%2Fmanufacturer%2Fmoto-guzzi%2F2017-moto-guzzi-v7-iii-stone-review.html%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_campaign%3DMotorcycle.com_weekly%26utm_source%3DMotorcycle.com20170824&v=1&out=http%3A%2F%2Fmotorcycle.com.vsassets.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F08%2F081717-2017-Moto-Guzzi-V7-III-Stone-hp-torque-dyno.jpg&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwildguzzi.com%2Fforum%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D92021.0&title=2017%20Moto%20Guzzi%20V7%20III%20Stone%20Review&txt=)
or
3. Buy a better city bike that can also go on trips, like the KTM mentioned earlier. There are so many lighter and faster bikes out there, it's kind of silly to pick just one as an example... but you'll have to make that decision for yourself.
Personally in your situation I would just ride what I have until it's worn and ready for a rebuild or replacement.
I am 5' 10" and 140 lbs. So we aren't too far apart. I had a Breva 750 and a V11 LeMans (1064cc) before.
The Breva 750 took my wife and I two up with luggage on long trips with no issues! I only wanted more power when on the freeway trying to pass long trucks.
The V11 LeMans had enough power to handle any situation, but it was a bit tall and heavy for me... not bad, but I ended up preferring the lower and lighter Breva.
Good luck in your decision!
-Joe
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Appreciate the input, guys. Unkept, the reliability issue is the strongest argument against it to me, and could very well be a deciding factor. If Chuck in Indiana is still active here, maybe I'll send him a message and ask him his thoughts on it, having had experience with it.
I'm very, very picky about aesthetics, and that extends to motorcycles (which is partially why I landed on the V7 in the first place over simply getting a Honda or a Harley and having parts and dealers easily accessible). The criteria in what I'm looking for, if I do decide to make another purchase, is that the bike be small and light enough, good for the city but capable enough for longer road trips, modern and fairly reliable, and in my opinion, visually appealing. The ones I've landed on as potentials are the R9T and the Ducati Sport Classic. There's unfortunately nothing else in Guzzi's recent line-ups that appeals to me, and while the V7 IIIs seem great, selling mine and re-purchasing one of those seems to me like a lot of hassle for a minimal upgrade.
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Given what the OP has stated he is looking for in a bike, relatively light weight, more power I would likely consider a V9. I�ve owned both and while I never thought my former V7 lacked in power, the V9 definitely has more. Small tank is a non-issue. Right now I�m averaging between 48-50 mpg, lowest I�ve ever gotten was 46 something and highest was 55ish. Light doesn�t even come on until 120-135 and even then I�ve usually got nearly another gallon in the tank giving me roughly a range of 170-190. Even said, I�d definitely get a test ride on the V9 for sure. There are very real and felt handling and ergos differences in the V7/V9 comparison and while I�m loving my Roamer, I�m not yet prepared to say I like it better than my former V7 which is still one of my two favorite motorcycles I�ve ever owned. And then too, the V9 look, as you mention aesthetics is important to you, may not be your cup of tea and I absolutely understand that as well.
Only question I would ask, and I�m not doubting the op�s word here, but do you really �need� that extra power or is it something you just feel like you want? And hey, there�s nothing wrong with just wanting it. Totally fine. But. If I wanted more power than my pervious V7 or certainly my V9, I don�t think I�d choose a Guzzi. Just me. Griso, Stelvio, Norge. Wonderful machines but when it comes to Guzzis, my favs are the small blocks and (gasp), even the 1100 engines. So power. If you�re wanting more, I�ve found the ideal garage if you occasionally �want� something more is to have a small Guzzi and something else.
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Like bpreynolds, I’ve owned a small block (V7) and a big block (Griso). I just traded for a V9 Roamer and couldn’t be happier.
The combo of light weight, low saddle, upright position and wide power band make it a joy in the city. On the highway, it has longer legs and more horses than the V7 and is much less thirsty than the Griso. With a range of nearly 200 miles, my bladder needs emptying before the tank needs filling.
It costs less than the BMW or Griso, and it’s going to be more reliable than a hot-rodded V7. (IMHO, of course. I’d love to try one of those, but probably not for a long-term daily rider.)
It’s a personal call — which is why you’re undecided and why you’re getting multiple opinions.
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Have you tried lightening the bike yourself? The V7's are pretty sparse to begin with and there's not much room to slim down besides a lithium battery and aftermarket silencers, that said, losing the 20-30 lbs with those 2 mods can really make the bike feel way quicker and nimbler, especially for a lightweight guy like yourself.
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Appreciate the input, guys. Unkept, the reliability issue is the strongest argument against it to me, and could very well be a deciding factor. If Chuck in Indiana is still active here, maybe I'll send him a message and ask him his thoughts on it, having had experience with it.
I'm very, very picky about aesthetics, and that extends to motorcycles (which is partially why I landed on the V7 in the first place over simply getting a Honda or a Harley and having parts and dealers easily accessible). The criteria in what I'm looking for, if I do decide to make another purchase, is that the bike be small and light enough, good for the city but capable enough for longer road trips, modern and fairly reliable, and in my opinion, visually appealing. The ones I've landed on as potentials are the R9T and the Ducati Sport Classic. There's unfortunately nothing else in Guzzi's recent line-ups that appeals to me, and while the V7 IIIs seem great, selling mine and re-purchasing one of those seems to me like a lot of hassle for a minimal upgrade.
You will find a few weeks worth of reading here.
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=46f9ab96195407354561e5933b47a6b4&topic=65696.0
Thanks to Chuck's magnanimity one time at the Ohio rally I have briefly ridden the Aero Lario. It's a hoot!
Howard
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I've gone down the Quixotic path of attempting to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.
My advice would be to purchase a nice low mile 90's CBR600 or equivalent.
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let me chime in. I've known Todd for many years, and he's always been straight up with me.. honest and fair. I also know Pete has an axe to grind with him frome getting shafted by one of Todd's "friends" back in the day. Todd also got shafted by that guy. Enough said about that.
Now, on to the 4V heads. They are a collaborative effort by Todd and Mike Wrenn, who posted his first 4V conversion here. They are utsing top notch components. Will they be reliable in the long run? I certainly don't know.
I used Iceblue's Chinese valves, and thought they weren't manufactured very well at the time. Tried them anyway and got 5000 miles before wiping a cam lobe. I *think* that was caused by the unequal lengths of the valves.. but don't know. I would have continued to experiment with the 4V heads.. they are not heron heads, but pent roof, and breathe very well indeed. The engine is a hoot. By that time, though, I had found the Aero engine, and the rest is history.
IMHO, it would be a *very* fun motorcycle. Todd knows his way around suspension, too. The downside is the unkown reliability.
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bpreynolds - that's a very good distinction. It's true that, no, I don't need more. The V7 has taken me across multiple road trips and I have no doubt that it will be able to continue to do so. But more would be nice. If I had the space, I would definitely keep it and add a more powerful bike into the mix, but given that I live in a city row home, that's potentially an issue. I hate the idea of giving up the V7, though, so unless something else really knocks my socks off, I'd figure out a way to keep it in addition to a second bike. The looks of the V9, however, are not for me. If it had the looks of a V7, I'd probably really dig it.
drawnverybadly - Yes, I've lightened my V7 with Mistrals and once the battery dies (which will be sooner rather than later), I'll be replacing it with a lithium ion one. And don't get me wrong, it's quick.
Howard - thanks for the link! I'll definitely dive into that.
Chuck - thanks for chiming in! It's nice to hear another take on Todd and his work. I take it you've never ridden one of his and Mike Wrenn's 820s?
Really appreciate all of the feedback, guys. It sounds like renting one next time I'm in LA might be the only way to go.
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Just throwing this out there, but how hard was it for Todd to put the V7 tank on the V9?
That really might be the answer for a whole lot less work than a 4V 820 V7 kit, assuming you're happy with the rest of the V9 ergos and looks.
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Mike Wrenn happens to be a friend , and he is a very talented guy , but let's make this simple . What kind of warranty is GT offering on this expensive conversion ?
Dusty
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let me chime in. I've known Todd for many years, and he's always been straight up with me.. honest and fair. I also know Pete has an axe to grind with him frome getting shafted by one of Todd's "friends" back in the day. Todd also got shafted by that guy. Enough said about that.
Now, on to the 4V heads. They are a collaborative effort by Todd and Mike Wrenn, who posted his first 4V conversion here. They are utsing top notch components. Will they be reliable in the long run? I certainly don't know.
I used Iceblue's Chinese valves, and thought they weren't manufactured very well at the time. Tried them anyway and got 5000 miles before wiping a cam lobe. I *think* that was caused by the unequal lengths of the valves.. but don't know. I would have continued to experiment with the 4V heads.. they are not heron heads, but pent roof, and breathe very well indeed. The engine is a hoot. By that time, though, I had found the Aero engine, and the rest is history.
IMHO, it would be a *very* fun motorcycle. Todd knows his way around suspension, too. The downside is the unkown reliability.
Just to clarify Chuck I got shafted by Todd, not just his lowlife pal. More than once and to the tune of several thousand dollars. I could explain further but I'll just leave it there.
Pete
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ok
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Just throwing this out there, but how hard was it for Todd to put the V7 tank on the V9?
That really might be the answer for a whole lot less work than a 4V 820 V7 kit, assuming you're happy with the rest of the V9 ergos and looks.
In case you haven't seen this on Guzzitech:
So the things I personally didn't like on the V9 is the styling of the 4-gallon fuel tank, mid controls, hard seat and flat bars (though I haven't seen the revised controls on the newest V9), all now replaced on mine below (which I can offer as a turn key V7 retro-fit kit if interested, but know it ain't cheap!). And despite how much I don't like the wheel & tire combos on either the B or R, the 16" Bobber wheels get the nod from me as to confidence/feel.
The motor is a nice step up from the current V7 II. However, I had @Gruzzer ride my V9/7 against his GT-Rx[emoji768] V7-820/2V and he said his had more punch than my modded V9. Everyone is welcome to come sample my V9/7, click pic below or RentAGuzzi banner ad above.
Depending on how much you like your V7R, you might consider my engine mod. See; http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/gt-rx[emoji768]-v7r-820-quattrovalvole-info.15435/page-2#post-123379 -- Or ride the V9 and see if it speaks to you. If it does, go for it.
The new T's are very good (I own the new Thrux-R for rental duties) but they've become so refined they've lost my interest. Guzzi will largely always have me for the power delivery, sound and simplicity to work on, despite their chronic small issues.
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I wouldn't go with both mods if you plan to ride the thing on the highway, because the gearing is too low for the extra power. With Lario primary gearing it would be better.
I have one of Ed Milich's fire-breathing 850s (his claim) which have a lot of porting work done as well. Incredibly quick for a small block, quicker than my Lario even if you allow for the lower gearing. 2nd to 5th on my Nevada are roughly equivalent to 1st to 4th on the Lario. For comparison it turns 5,000rpm at 75mph in top
Mine is comfortable at 80mph and relatively smooth from 70mph on up, but at those speeds it feels like it needs an extra gear or two. That nervousness at high cruising speeds takes away some of the fun because it is not relaxed, not for me, anyway.
But in the twisties the low gearing does not matter, especially if it is hilly, it just pulls and pulls.
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....While I've heard great things about the Griso, it's a far too big and heavy bike for me. At 5'8", 130ish lbs, and doing primarily city riding, it just doesn't suit my needs in a bike.....
I got rid of my V7 and push rod Griso earlier this year and got a Roamer. IMHO the V9 Roamer is an improvement in every way over the V7. People mock the tank, but keep in mind it's just a pint short of 4 gallons. My mileage has run from a low of 46 mpg to a high of 57 mpg. Blasting down the highway at 75 mph yields about 50-52 mpg. It needs suspension work, as all 'built to price point' bikes do. Beyond that, it's a pretty decent bike.
Now for the Griso, I REALLY miss the Griso. I didn't realize how much I enjoyed the bike until I sold it. It's in a completely different league than the V7/V9. Doesn't need major suspension work, but does need the suspension set up properly for the rider. As for being too big for you, we had a gal in our riding group that was, maybe 5'6" and maybe 140lb (have to be careful about the weight thing). She had hers lowered an inch and had no issues riding it.
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I considered a big bore kit for my T5 at one time. Things I thought about were the cost benefit and performance.
A ton of money for a little bit of power increase and then the reliability issues need to be considered. Yes, the GT setup might get the power you want but will it be reliable? Replacement parts readily available? Will it increase the value of the bike or decrease it?
If you want a more powerful, lighter bike then maybe the V7 isn't the right platform. Maybe an Aprilla, Duc, Beemer, KTM, etc are more the right bike for you.
"Power creep" is one of those things that affects many of us. You find you want a little more. Pretty soon that isn't enough and you want a little more. That's why I'd suggest trying a different bike and see if you will feel limited by the small HP increase on the V7.
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You will find a few weeks worth of reading here.
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=46f9ab96195407354561e5933b47a6b4&topic=65696.0
Thanks to Chuck's magnanimity one time at the Ohio rally I have briefly ridden the Aero Lario. It's a hoot!
Howard
Darn Photobucket shut down the links for all of the photos!
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Humm, $3,500 plus labor for Todd's engine upgrade. That sounds like a $5,000 end product. I have been down that road with a Ducati and would not do so again. It's much cheaper, simpler, and more reliable to buy another bike that fits the bill in terms of size and power. You get a known quantity with factory parts and a warranty. At some point you will part company with the bike and then it's harder to find a buyer for some one-off contraption. All those mods will be money lost. With all that said, Ed Milich does offer an alternative: http://www.guzzipower.com/store/Headwork.html
Peter Y.
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Darn Photobucket shut down the links for all of the photos!
I've been holding off on doing all the labor of updating all the photos thinking there might be something illegal about what they are doing and they would have to stop blocking the pictures.
As they said, "this thread is worthless without pictures" so if nothing is done by this Winter, I'll restore them using another host.
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Thanks for all of the input, guys. It's got me leaning towards giving the R9T a more thorough test. It seems like not many people have gone with Todd's kit, making the reliability of it a pretty big unknown.
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I've gone down the Quixotic path of attempting to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.
My advice would be to purchase a nice low mile 90's CBR600 or equivalent.
Nah -- get a Ducati Monster for that 90-degree V-twin character!
I'm glad I have one in my garage along side my V7 Special and Racer.
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Thanks for all of the input, guys. It's got me leaning towards giving the R9T a more thorough test. It seems like not many people have gone with Todd's kit, making the reliability of it a pretty big unknown.
(http://images.mcn.bauercdn.com/PageFiles/590787/1000x750/P90232656-highRes.jpg)
For only a couple $k more than I have into my V7 Racer w/ Record fairing, I could've had the R9T Racer.
Given the choice between hot riding a V7 and a factory hot ride like the R9T, the answer is pretty obvious!
Many here knock the boxer motors as lacking character. The R9T definitely does not lack character. I've not ridden the Racer model, but, have ridden a bone-stock 2015 R9T, and found it to be very enjoyable with plenty of character and lots of satisfying torque.
The V7 definitely has a much more classic look, but, the R9T Racer is a great looking bike in its own right.
I test rode the R9T and new 1200cc Triumph Thruxton (not the Truxton R, none was available to test ride that day) back to back. I much prefer the look of the Thruxton, but, despite the 270 degree crank motor that I thought would have similar character to a 90 degree V-twin, perhaps being water cooled mutes too much of non-exhaust related mechanics sounds? I found the R9T motor to have more character, and found the overall ride more enjoyable.
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^^^^^ I understand what you're saying..but what happens when the warranty runs out? Most of the peoplethat Iknow trade them in on a new one before that happens. That alone keeps me from even going into a dealership..
Gimme a Grease O instead..
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^^^^^ I understand what you're saying..but what happens when the warranty runs out? Most of the peoplethat Iknow trade them in on a new one before that happens. That alone keeps me from even going into a dealership..
Gimme a Grease O instead..
I dunno, my Breva 1100 wasn't so great out of warranty either -- two gauge clusters, the second of which only lasted 7k, miles, and a clutch that de-laminated at only 24k miles.
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Maybe the people who trade in BMWs when the warranty runs out do it not because it is NECESSARY, but BECAUSE THEY SIMPLY CAN and WANT TO?
Self-selecting bias to those who want the latest/greatest and can afford it.
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The tendency towards selling BMWs when the warranty expires has accelerated as BMWs have become more and more expensive to repair, so there is plenty of reason why a buyer would choose to sell one. As a result, resale values for used non-warranteed BMWs have in parallel dropped to the level once associated with throw away Japanese bikes of prior eras.
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The tendency towards selling BMWs when the warranty expires has accelerated as BMWs have become more and more expensive to repair, so there is plenty of reason why a buyer would choose to sell one. As a result, resale values for used non-warranteed BMWs have in parallel dropped to the level once associated with throw away Japanese bikes of prior eras.
I switched from BMW to Guzzi smallblocks because BMW became dealer-only bikes for repairs.
They used to be thoughtfully designed; you could almost do a complete engine removal with the on-board tool kit.
Alas, now it takes specialized dealer tools just to do routine maintenance.
Fortunately the Guzzi smallblock (at least the pre-2013 "old" engine) were dinosaurs from the 1970's and easy to work on.
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I switched from BMW to Guzzi smallblocks because BMW became dealer-only bikes for repairs.
Alas, now it takes specialized dealer tools just to do routine maintenance.
Fortunately the Guzzi smallblock (at least the pre-2013 "old" engine) were dinosaurs from the 1970's and easy to work on.
When did this happen to BMWs?
What maintenance procedures?
What things can't we work on with current smallblocks?
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What things can't we work on with current smallblocks?
I didn't mean to exclude current smallblocks, it's just that I'm more familiar with the pre-13 models.
The "old" ones definitely have simpler ECU systems.
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I didn't mean to exclude current smallblocks, it's just that I'm more familiar with the pre-13 models.
The "old" ones definitely have simpler ECU systems.
I think I could argue either side of that.
What's more simple, a pair of throttle bodies you need to balance, manually set the tps, and use a manual fast idle lever with or a single throttle body that requires no service or manual intervention?
I'm not even sure I'd call the second more complicated to troubleshoot, though potentially more expensive if a component fails.
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This is like arguing carbs vs fuel injection. The things you mention are easy, just an afternoon with a few beers.
The new models have separate ECUs for each oxy sensor and cylinder. Who needs that complication for a few nths cleaner running.
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This is like arguing carbs vs fuel injection. The things you mention are easy, just an afternoon with a few beers.
The new models have separate ECUs for each oxy sensor and cylinder. Who needs that complication for a few nths cleaner running.
No it's nothing like arguing carbs vs EFI.
It's literally arguing primitive, partially mechanical controlled single Lambda EFI vs more electronic dual Lambda EFI.
But what defines simple? More moving components, more complicated linkage, more things to be mechanically checked and set periodically. That all equals more complicated.
BTW, both versions have only one ECU.
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You guys crack me up! :laugh:
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You guys crack me up! [emoji23]
Well to be clear I'm coming at this from a position that I think most people greatly exaggerate the "unserviceability" of most modern bikes or cars or....
I'm still curious what makes the BMW's unserviceable, but I whole heartedly disagree there's any real complication to servicing the modern smallblocks.
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The Guzzi smallblocks are great, but compare an old airhead BMW to a recent BMW twin,
and hold on to your wallet. That's where the dealer makes some coin.
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The Guzzi smallblocks are great, but compare an old airhead BMW to a recent BMW twin,
and hold on to your wallet. That's where the dealer makes some coin.
But in what way?
Or is this all hyperbole?
Honest question.
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Oddly enough , back when airheads were current very few owners did their own work , and very few Guzzi owners when loop frames were new did their own work either . Yeah , they might have been simpler in some ways , but I actually believe a determined owner who possesses decent skills can learn to service and work on modern beemers or Guzzis . We have a board member who owns a Rockster with well clear of 200k miles that has never seen a dealers workshop .
Dusty
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One thing that makes modern BMWs (and Ducatis) impractical to service yourself is the necessity to visit the dealer to extinguish the service light. It's been discussed on this site previously, so no need to expand here.
I discussed this with a friend who owns a BMW dealer, and his suggestion was to spend some money on accessories or whatever, making friends with the dealer over time, and then periodically beg him to turn off your light for free. That doesn't appeal to me, especially if I ever wanted to live a long way from a dealer. When I suggested that BMW (and VW/Ducati) is circumventing the law in coercing owners to buy their services, the conversation ended with a smile. He and BMW both know exactly what they're doing.
Another guy had an email exchange back and forth with Ducati about the non-availability of parts and service information to the retail buyer. The Ducati representative at one point wrote "we're aware that some Ducati owners like to do their own service and we don't object to it, but we prefer to support our dealers" This is the same company that was brought to US prominence by the California Hot Rod SS, the work of two guys and their friends, and it winning the Daytona superbike race without any factory involvement...
Forget those people. I'm not buying it, ever. That's not what motorcycles are about to me.
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That's not what motorcycles are about to me.
« Last Edit: Today
Me, either.. but I've posted ..oh, never mind.. :smiley:
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That's not what motorcycles are about to me.
� Last Edit: Today
Me, either.. but I've posted ..oh, never mind.. :smiley:
OK Chuckie , you and Fubar are both smoking the same thing :laugh:
Dusty
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:smiley: Fubars a good guy..too.
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One thing that makes modern BMWs (and Ducatis) impractical to service yourself is the necessity to visit the dealer to extinguish the service light. It's been discussed on this site previously, so no need to expand here.
Well, prior to the Siemens ECUs on Ducs this wasn't an issue because there are aftermarket tools available.
Isn't it just a matter of time before someone makes something available for the Siemens...actually I think Rexxer might already have a tuner that does it.
How about BMWs, is the same not available for them?
And when did this start on both, I didn't even HAVE a service light on my R1100, so did it start with the 1150, 1200?
And let's be honest, if that's the ONLY thing is it THAT big a deal?
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I think I've been honest in saying that I won't buy a motorcycle that requires a dealer to turn off a service light. That goes for any other kind of 'feature' that attempts to manipulate me into being an endless source of cash flow after a one-off purchase. Yes, in principle that is a very big deal.
Re Siemens, BMW and VW/Ducati it appears true that this phenomenon within motorcycling is being led by German industry. Siemens, like Bosch, has a history of business practices that push the limits of legality and are in bad taste. When it comes to buying their products, I say thanks but no thanks.
On my last period in Europe I had dinner in a group that included a career BMW manager who is involved in motorcycle service. I laid out for him what I see as the reversal of BMW design and service philosophy and how I thought that the current situation is manipulative and unattractive to me. He didn't look very happy, but he didn't disagree. Possibly the only good thing about Piaggio is that as a scooter company they are used to buyers that never take their bikes anywhere near a dealer, and are serviced by whoever happens to be in the nearest alleyway. And obviously Guzzi as a Piaggio 'brand' has seen practicality and owner independence as virtues since day one. Me too.
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I won't fault someone for their desires in a bike or their principals on such things.
That said, I've asked everyone here (many who know more about current BMWs than I do) to come up with WHAT things you can't service without a dealer.
And so far, the ONLY thing someone has come up with is turning off a service light.
I mean, REALLY? IS that it? If so the statement that "you can't service modern BMWs" is completely hyperbole.
And we do a dis-service repeating it.
Like people who say "You can't service Guzzis cause you can't get parts" - BULLSHIT.
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Lots of misinformation going on about BMWs. The service light (which my 2007 GSA does not have) can be turned off by a simple diagnostic device that cost about $150.
There are lots of BMW owners who do all their own service. I do some, dealer does some, but it's mostly a time issue with me and I make more than a mechanic and have more work than I can do. My GSA has 60,000 miles on it, has been a great bike, and I will likely keep it another 40k. Right now it is on a lift in my garage getting a new drive shaft as a ujoint blew out. I have been doing more work lately myself just for fun.
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As I mentioned above, you cannot buy factory part manuals or service manuals for many 2017 bikes. I mentioned Ducatis specifically but BMWs are no different. This isn't untrue or a coincidence, it's a conscious strategy. It directs money to the dealer service department and reduces resale value to the less affluent used market, meaning that the bikes get scrapped and replaced by new bikes faster.
The devices that are available to owners to turn off the lights on some bikes that would otherwise require a dealer are aftermarket items, produced by by people who are combating this phenomenon. Good for them (!), but BMW doesn't like it and It's yet to happen for many models of Ducati.
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My advice about BMWs is to actually put a decent amount of miles on during the warranty period and get the niggles all sorted out. Once well sorted, the dependability improves greatly.
I would actually be a bit hesitant to buy a very low mileage older BMW. About 30,000 miles would be a sweet spot.
And buy one late in the model run. The great thing about the R9T is that the moter used is the same as the boxer Camhead introduced in 2010. It is now exceptionally refined and as far as I know very trouble free. I rode a 2010 GS with the same moter and it easily hit 140mph and was about the most refined bike I have ever riden. That camhead moter is so good.
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My advice about BMWs is to actually put a decent amount of miles on during the warranty period and get the niggles all sorted out. Once well sorted, the dependability improves greatly.
So same advice as most Guzzis.
Tusayan - it's not uncommon for service manuals to not be available right away. And then when it comes to EU products sometimes they're just about useless anyway. Still doesn't mean you can't do it.
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So same advice as most Guzzis.
Tusayan - it's not uncommon for service manuals to not be available right away. And then when it comes to EU products sometimes they're just about useless anyway. Still doesn't mean you can't do it.
My advice about late model BMWs is not inconsistent with Socalrob's. If you have to have one for some reason, the cam head engines are probably a better bet for reliability than the newer wet head engines. I don't find either of them very pleasant to ride, to me they're clunky.
Obviously when the manufacturer provides zero service and parts information for a product, and adds a service light for which they only provide dealers with a tool, they are doing what they can to eliminate owner independence. Equally obviously a determined owner can with enough headaches and aftermarket equipment avoid being manipulated by that manufacturer.
My choice is different, I just don't buy the thing in the first place, especially when the main reason to buy European before was quality and serviceabilty. Today I'd rather have a Honda or Suzuki, I think they are nicer people and the product is better. For that reason, and based on conversation with BMW employees and dealers, I think the threat and reality of Japanese competition is about the only thing that gets BMWs attention. Within the German market I don't think they worry about it much, but in the US market they saw what the Japanese did with 'their' luxury car market in the 80s and 90s and I they know at this stage their only real selling point is brand snobbery.
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Well, prior to the Siemens ECUs on Ducs this wasn't an issue because there are aftermarket tools available.
Isn't it just a matter of time before someone makes something available for the Siemens...actually I think Rexxer might already have a tuner that does it.
How about BMWs, is the same not available for them?
And when did this start on both, I didn't even HAVE a service light on my R1100, so did it start with the 1150, 1200?
And let's be honest, if that's the ONLY thing is it THAT big a deal?
Yes, aftermarket tools are available, but, $399 :shocked:
http://www.gs911usa.com/ (http://www.gs911usa.com/)
Up to 10 VIN's supported, unlimited for $749.
The 1200, and 800 twins definitely have a service light.
I don't know about the 1150.
Interestingly, you used got need a tool to reset the service indicator on BMW cars, but, recent ones (2011ish and newer) can be reset via the menu on the dash.
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I do find the requirement to purchase a $400 tool, or be inconvenienced to schedule a service appointment, and then take the time to take the bike to the dealer just to reset an oil light to be highly annoying.
The nearest BMW dealer to my house a 1 1/2 hour round trip from my house, plus the time I'm there, I'd likely use up the better part of half a day just to get said oil light turned off. If I'm looking at too different bikes that are alike in every way except for the requirement to go to the dealer to reset my service light (or buy a $400+ tool), I'll buy the one w/o that requirement.
I won't fault someone for their desires in a bike or their principals on such things.
That said, I've asked everyone here (many who know more about current BMWs than I do) to come up with WHAT things you can't service without a dealer.
And so far, the ONLY thing someone has come up with is turning off a service light.
I mean, REALLY? IS that it? If so the statement that "you can't service modern BMWs" is completely hyperbole.
And we do a dis-service repeating it.
Like people who say "You can't service Guzzis cause you can't get parts" - BULLSHIT.
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I do find the requirement to purchase a $400 tool, or be inconvenienced to schedule a service appointment, and then take the time to take the bike to the dealer just to reset an oil light to be highly annoying.
The nearest BMW dealer to my house a 1 1/2 hour round trip from my house, plus the time I'm there, I'd likely use up the better part of half a day just to get said oil light turned off. If I'm looking at too different bikes that are alike in every way except for the requirement to go to the dealer to reset my service light (or buy a $400+ tool), I'll buy the one w/o that requirement.
The dealership thing is different with me. I have literally 5 or 6 BMW moto dealers within easy striking distance of my house. The closests, about 10 miles away, sponsors free track days and is a really nice place (Century BMW in Alhambra, CA). Sorry about the price of the diagnostic tool, I really thought it was much cheaper. I don't ever recall seeing the service indicator on my 2007 GSA 1200. Maybe I am missing it. I suspect you could pick up a used diagnostic tool much discounted on Advrider fleemarket if you are patient.
I do really love that camhead 1200 motor. I did not find it clunky at all, of course I don't find my MotoGuzzi V7iii clunky either.
Good luck on whatever you decide. Personally, I think about every brand is putting out fantastic bikes these days, and yes, even the new Harleys are so much improved over earlier versions. I would not hesitate to buy a bike of any brand if it called to me.
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My choice is different, I just don't buy the thing in the first place, especially when the main reason to buy European before was quality and serviceabilty. Today I'd rather have a Honda or Suzuki, I think they are nicer people and the product is better. For that reason, and based on conversation with BMW employees and dealers, I think the threat and reality of Japanese competition is about the only thing that gets BMWs attention. Within the German market I don't think they worry about it much, but in the US market they saw what the Japanese did with 'their' luxury car market in the 80s and 90s and I they know at this stage their only real selling point is brand snobbery.
If the Honda Interceptor, aka VFR800 was shaft or belt drive, I'd have bought one instead of the BMW F800GT.
I wanted sub 500# sport tourer that wasn't chain drive. There aren't many choices. In fact, F800GT pretty much stands alone in that category.
I very much enjoyed the '96 VFR750 and '01 VFR800 that I owned. I sold the VFR800 (chain drive) and Breva 1100 (2 failed dashes, and one failed clutch at only 24k miles) to buy the F800GT.
The F800GT had 5k on it when I bought it. It now has 17k. I haven't had any problems yet (touch wood). In fact, the only problem is, I test rode a R1200RS and want one.
.... Sorry about the price of the diagnostic tool, I really thought it was much cheaper. I don't ever recall seeing the service indicator on my 2007 GSA 1200. Maybe I am missing it. I suspect you could pick up a used diagnostic tool much discounted on Advrider fleemarket if you are patient.
There may been cheaper tools that will do the earlier CANBus bikes. As for used diagnostics tools, these things get locked to VIN #'s. I know that the VAGCOM for VW cars can only be used with like 3 VIN's before having to pay again. At least the GS911 tool can do up to 10. A buddy of mine gave me $50 for one of those VIN spots for his '13 R1200GS. If I do buy that R1200RS, at least I already have my tool, and still have 8 VIN spots left on it.
I do really love that camhead 1200 motor. I did not find it clunky at all, of course I don't find my MotoGuzzi V7iii clunky either.
Good luck on whatever you decide. Personally, I think about every brand is putting out fantastic bikes these days, and yes, even the new Harleys are so much improved over earlier versions. I would not hesitate to buy a bike of any brand if it called to me.
:1: on that camhead motor -- I've ridden a few and like 'em (R9T, R1200GS, and R1200R).
IMHO, the Racer version of the R9T is a nice looking motorcycle:
(http://images.mcn.bauercdn.com/PageFiles/590787/1000x750/P90232656-highRes.jpg)
And yes, like many others here, I enjoy reading Pete's prose, even if I don't always agree (referring to his berating of the R9T in another thread). Keep it coming, Pete!
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Some strange thread drift on this one :rolleyes:
Dusty
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I do find the requirement to purchase a $400 tool, or be inconvenienced to schedule a service appointment, and then take the time to take the bike to the dealer just to reset an oil light to be highly annoying.
The nearest BMW dealer to my house a 1 1/2 hour round trip from my house, plus the time I'm there, I'd likely use up the better part of half a day just to get said oil light turned off. If I'm looking at too different bikes that are alike in every way except for the requirement to go to the dealer to reset my service light (or buy a $400+ tool), I'll buy the one w/o that requirement.
Me too, I'm not arguing against buying on that reason or not.
I am just arguing against what appears to be misinformation - i.e. that YOU CANNOT SERVICE IT YOURSELF.
You can, you can, and you can.
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I do find the requirement to purchase a $400 tool, or be inconvenienced to schedule a service appointment, and then take the time to take the bike to the dealer just to reset an oil light to be highly annoying.
This is what I am talking about, and even more. Older BMWs were designed for riders, not the dealer.
They were designed to be serviced, not to make more coin for the dealer.
Sad.
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This is what I am talking about, and even more. Older BMWs were designed for riders, not the dealer.
They were designed to be serviced, not to make more coin for the dealer.
Sad.
Absolutely it's sad. It's a very sad reflection of the interaction between business and motorcycling. How long until we see the equivalent of a micro-brewery revolution in reaction to 'Budweiser' self-serving corporate motorcycle manufacturers? If Guzzi weren't a part of Piaggio, and maybe even if they are, they'd be perfectly placed to play a role in that.
It's interesting to me that when you talk to 2017 BMW enthusiasts, they go on about how great a money making business BMW is... as if that is their major concern! I have relatives and friends who work for BMW in Germany, and obviously the paycheck and retirement are their major concern, and those benefits go along with a successful business. They don't really care about the product or customer as long as they have their security. That makes sense. However when listening to 2017 BMW buyers in the US I'm surprised that they often sound much the same, more like BMW employees than BMW buyers and riders who are themselves being manipulated into providing cash flow. I think it must be an ingredient in BMW Corporate Kool Aid, and they supply some with the bikes :grin:
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Absolutely it's sad. It's a very sad reflection of the interaction between business and motorcycling. How long until we see the equivalent of a micro-brewery revolution in reaction to 'Budweiser' self-serving corporate motorcycle manufacturers? If Guzzi weren't a part of Piaggio, and maybe even if they are, they'd be perfectly placed to play a role in that.
It's interesting to me that when you talk to 2017 BMW enthusiasts, they go on about how great a money making business BMW is... as if that is their major concern! I have relatives and friends who work for BMW in Germany, and obviously the paycheck and retirement are their major concern, and those benefits go along with a successful business. They don't really care about the product or customer as long as they have their security. That makes sense. However when listening to 2017 BMW buyers in the US I'm surprised that they often sound much the same, more like BMW employees than BMW buyers and riders who are themselves being manipulated into providing cash flow. I think it must be an ingredient in BMW Corporate Kool Aid, and they supply some with the bikes :grin:
Quite the broad brush you paint with.
Personally, I suspect that the higher performance bikes end up being more costly and harder to repair and maintain. Compare a BMW R9T, air/oil cooled at about 110hp with a quaint MotoGuzzi V7iii at 52hp, and the BMW obviously harboring some higher tech and more extreme engineering, not to mention all of the gee wiz electronics the BMW has.
I'm sure from your viewpoint BMW is very dumb for building bikes that are more high strung. Its almost like they never do market research, right?
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I'm sure from your viewpoint BMW is very dumb for building bikes that are more high strung. Its almost like they never do market research, right?
Nobody has ever lost money underestimating the public taste, but I think that it's better over the long term sticking to doing what is fundamentally better... which was BMWs philosophy for about 70 years. As a friend who left Ducati (in Bologna) a while ago says, it's fine to make bikes for the ignorant upmarket, which was a conscious decision made at Ducati circa 2000-2005, but it'd be nice if they made some for higher level people as well.
As you might detect, I'm over Europan manufacturers and their 21st century nonsense.
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Essentially the extra 5% of power and rpm isn't worth the extra super-tooled maintenance. Not to mention the dealer only things that just sour the deal.
It's a law of diminishing returns, that eventually pointed me to a Guzzi smallblock, with technology from 20 yrs ago.
Less is more.
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Nobody has ever lost money underestimating the public taste, but I think that it's better over the long term sticking to doing what is fundamentally better... which was BMWs philosophy for about 70 years. As a friend who left Ducati (in Bologna) a while ago says, it's fine to make bikes for the ignorant upmarket, which was a conscious decision made at Ducati circa 2000-2005, but it'd be nice if they made some for higher level people as well.
As you might detect, I'm over Europan manufacturers and their 21st century nonsense.
Interesting post.
Just to be clear, "upmarket" folks are ignorant and "higher level" people won't ride Ducatis or BMWs?
What brand(s) of bikes must one ride to be considered a "higher level" person?
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Nobody has ever lost money underestimating the public taste, but I think that it's better over the long term sticking to doing what is fundamentally better... which was BMWs philosophy for about 70 years. As a friend who left Ducati (in Bologna) a while ago says, it's fine to make bikes for the ignorant upmarket, which was a conscious decision made at Ducati circa 2000-2005, but it'd be nice if they made some for higher level people as well.
As you might detect, I'm over Europan manufacturers and their 21st century nonsense.
BMW's motorcycle division was moribund in 1980 after building simple machines for years . The guy running the car division (thus the company) almost closed down motorcycle manufacturing . Fact is , even though the somewhat lowly R80 GS began the turnaround , it was the introduction of the K series , and to a larger extent the first oilheads in '93 that really got the company moving again . It is a business , and as such their job is to turn a profit , and they are doing that .
Dusty
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Essentially the extra 5% of power and rpm isn't worth the extra super-tooled maintenance. Not to mention the dealer only things that just sour the deal.
It's a law of diminishing returns, that eventually pointed me to a Guzzi smallblock, with technology from 20 yrs ago.
Less is more.
May not be worth it to you, but may to some others. Lots of different bikes out there for lots of different folks to choose from. I'm really happy not everybody chooses the exact same as I do, although we both did choose small block Guzzis.
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May not be worth it to you, but may to some others. Lots of different bikes out there for lots of different folks to choose from. I'm really happy not everybody chooses the exact same as I do, although we both did choose small block Guzzis.
You misunderstand my primary beef. BMW reversed itself, from bikes built by engineers for riders who enjoyed the mechanics, to airplane-like devices that you ride and then hand over to dealerships to maintain.
BMW lost itself. Lost the idea that knowing the machine, working on it, is part of being a rider.
Now you merely pilot the factory's bike. No need to soil your hands.
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Fact is, even though the somewhat lowly R80 GS began the turnaround , it was the introduction of the K series , and to a larger extent the first oilheads in '93 that really got The company moving again
I have an old GS and it is an excellent motorcycle, and the original K-bikes were likewise very well designed for longevity, quality and serviceability. The initiation of BMWs renewal had nothing to do with building in customer dependence and planned obsolescence into the designs,. That came much later.
Just to be clear, "upmarket" folks are ignorant and "higher level" people won't ride Ducatis or BMWs?
Not exactly but yes, I find most 21st century buyers of upmarket European marques to be a bit unsophisticated and limited in their understanding of motorcycles. Mostly they are buying status, Guzzi being somewhat an exception, and I think there's some correlation between ignorance of a subject and status seeking within it.
My own bikes are four Ducatis, two Moto Guzzis, a BMW, a Suzuki and a Kawasaki - all the European ones are older and were selected to match my values, which are now basically disconnected from those of the European industry. They can make whatever they want, sell a million, but if I dislike their basic values my opinion isn't gong to be affected.
PS Sign216, 'airplane like devices', at least if you mean light aircraft, are exactly like old BMWs to this day, in terms of maintenance. Light aircraft didn't lose their way, BMW did :wink:
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PS Sign216, 'airplane like devices', at least if you mean light aircraft, are exactly like old BMWs to this day, in terms of maintenance. Light aircraft didn't lose their way, BMW did :wink:
Tusayan, you know what I mean. A coworker is a former F16 pilot, and he had no idea what he flew, he just flew and left the mechanics to the service pool. He later bought a bike, and had no idea what kind of engine it had. He just rode it.
A light aircraft pilot knows Everything about the plane. A completely different experience. Different horses for different courses, eh?
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Yeah , except light aircraft sales are down . BMW learned from HD , build what people will buy enough of to turn a profit , thus there sales numbers are doing OK . Once again , this is a business, and what a few of us old diehards want is irrelevant . Even the esteemed Mr Roper decries the fact that MG seems to be stuck in 1980 .
Dusty
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A light aircraft pilot knows Everything about the plane. A completely different experience. Different horses for different courses, eh?
Not in my world, I'm both.
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BMW learned from HD , build what people will buy enough of to turn a profit , thus there sales numbers are doing OK
That sure made me smile: HD is currently heading down the tubes from following that philosophy, ignoring what is fundamentally right for what sells right now, and BMW is just now starting to face a similar crisis.
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That made me smile: HD is currently heading down the tubes from precisely that philosophy, ignoring what is fundamentally right for what sells right now, and BMW is just starting to facing a similar crisis.
No , HD has lost sales because their prospective market aged out , and the economy tanked . Last I saw BMW was holding their own by building bikes that young and old alike desire . Remember , it was doing exactly what you are asking for that almost killed the MC division in the 1980's . The MC market is down overall , and companies that can't adapt will fail .
Dusty
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Have you looked at the at the average BMW buyer - they are as old as the Harley crowd.
BMW is now spending money like water developing every imaginable type of bike, money earned selling cars, trying to figure out what to do without any clear direction. I think in 20 years you'll see both Harley and BMW being a shadow of what they are today, unless BMW completely changes direction, with Asian manufacturers having soundly beaten them based on the fundamentals, value and respect for the customer. Anyway, the 'motorcycle as status symbol' fad will run its course.
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Ahh, isn't just like a pendulum.
The old makers will come back to fundamentals (I hope),
unless they succumb like the many old English marques.
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Dunno , around here I see riders in their 40's on R1200 models , and 20 somethings on RR models . Plus , I'll more than likely be somewhere else in 20 years , so it doesn't really matter . I do remember when the first /5's came out and all of the BMW traditionalists just knew that model would kill the company , same with K bikes , and don't even get me started on the howling when the first oilhead RS came out in '93 . I was in the old dealer in Tulsa when he rolled the first '93 RS onto the sales floor , the old guys standing around all just rolled their eyes and sighed , now almost 25 years later we are sounding just like those old guys in '93 :rolleyes:
Dusty
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Dunno , around here I see riders in their 40's on R1200 models , and 20 somethings on RR models . Plus , I'll more than likely be somewhere else in 20 years , so it doesn't really matter . I do remember when the first /5's came out and all of the BMW traditionalists just knew that model would kill the company , same with K bikes , and don't even get me started on the howling when the first oilhead RS came out in '93 . I was in the old dealer in Tulsa when he rolled the first '93 RS onto the sales floor , the old guys standing around all just rolled their eyes and sighed , now almost 25 years later we are sounding just like those old guys in '93 :rolleyes:
Dusty
True, true.
Pirsig wanted to know what "quality is."
We still don't know.
I still have my '58 R50. A 500cc bike with 8 to 1 compression.
I'm happy with it. It was my first big bike, back when a 500 was big.
Don't need more, but don't know if that's right.
Just don't know at all.
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Old people tend to miss the real trends because they are too focused on their own lives and static interests. In contrast to European developments focused on attracting the eyes and wallets of old, rich, status conscious guys, I think the more interesting current trend is the reemergence of lightweights, mostly Japanese, ridden by young people including young women.
That trend is what Guzzi is riding successfully with the small block V7, a bike designed in the late 70s, not copying BMW... copying BMW now having failed for a Piaggio/Guzzi as a business model, and the 2005-on bikes with which they copied BMW having gone out of production.
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True, true.
Pirsig wanted to know what "quality is."
We still don't know.
I still have my '58 R50. A 500cc bike with 8 to 1 compression.
I'm happy with it. It was my first big bike, back when a 500 was big.
Don't need more, but don't know if that's right.
Just don't know at all.
Nothing wrong with that , hell , until a couple of years ago I was riding a /5 , and have owned part of a '55 R50 that was fun , even if the suspension was clapped out . Problem is , we aren't the target market anymore . If BMW had even managed to make the airheads meet modern emission standards they still would not sell in 2017 . It is amazing that MG has managed to keep upgrading the small block to meet those standards , but those only sell in small numbers compared to what the other larger Euro companies sell . Even the Japanese have struggled a bit recently , their retro models like the CB 1100 have not been a sales success . Getting old certainly changes our perspective doesn't it ?
Dusty
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Nothing wrong with that , hell , until a couple of years ago I was riding a /5 , and have owned part of a '55 R50 that was fun , even if the suspension was clapped out . Problem is , we aren't the target market anymore . If BMW had even managed to make the airheads meet modern emission standards they still would not sell in 2017 . It is amazing that MG has managed to keep upgrading the small block to meet those standards , but those only sell in small numbers compared to what the other larger Euro companies sell . Even the Japanese have struggled a bit recently , their retro models like the CB 1100 have not been a sales success . Getting old certainly changes our perspective doesn't it ?
Dusty
I kind of thought my V7iii pretty much was like buying a BMW airhead, just made more modern.
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I kind of thought my V7iii pretty much was like buying a BMW airhead, just made more modern.
Sorta , with FI , electronic everything , catalytic converters ...
Dusty
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Sorta , with FI , electronic everything , catalytic converters ...
Dusty
I think the catalytic converter fell off when I put the Agostini pipes on.
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If BMW had even managed to make the airheads meet modern emission standards they still would not sell in 2017 .
Dusty
I disagree. It too would be riding the wave of hipster minimalism. Sure it wouldn't sell like the wasser-boxer, but it would sell.
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Old people tend to miss the real trends because they are too focused on their own lives and static interests. In contrast to European developments focused on attracting the eyes and wallets of old, rich, status conscious guys, I think the more interesting current trend is the reemergence of lightweights, mostly Japanese, ridden by young people including young women.
BMW certainly recognize this trend, and have answered with the G310R and G310GS to compete with the Japanese models in this segment; CB300F, CBR300R, R3, MT3 (not yet in the US, but, would be FZ3 here), Ninja 300, Versys 300, Duke 390, etc.
I think even more important to the survivor of motorcycle manufacturers are the 500-700cc middleweights (FZ07, XSR07, SV650, Z650, Ninja 650, CB500X, CB500F, CBR500R). These bikes appeal to older (non-cruiser) riders who are wanting something lighter, and also to younger riders stepping up from the 300cc class, or even to beginners. They're in the same weight range as a 600cc super sport, with way better ergos for street riding. Their twin-cylinder motors provide, IMHO, a way better torque curve for street use, no need to rev the snot out of them to make any power, and more reasonable power levels for the street (50-70 HP). These bikes are also priced much more reasonably, in the $5,500-$8,000 range, thousands less than 600cc super sports. This is especially important for the 20-30 year old crowd, many of which are being crushed under student loan debt.
I didn't mention BMW's 800cc twins in this middleweight category, because they're priced a good bit higher than the Japanese offerings.
Have you looked at the at the average BMW buyer - they are as old as the Harley crowd.
BMW is now spending money like water developing every imaginable type of bike, money earned selling cars, trying to figure out what to do without any clear direction.
I wouldn't necessarily say that they have no direction. They recognize that having a diverse product line is the key to gaining market share. They have ADV (R1200GS, F800GS, F700GS, G650GS, G310GS, S1000XR), touring (K1600GTL, K1600GT, K1600B R1200RT), sport touring (R1200RS, F800GT, S1000XR), naked/roadster (R1200R, S1000R, F800R, G310R), retroish/cafe, R9T and it's many variants, super sport (S1000RR), entry level (G310R), maxi-scooter (C650 Sport, C650GT, C650 Evolution) and even bagger (K1600B) markets covered. Sure, that K1600B bagger is hideous, but, not more so than some of the other bikes in that space. It isn't like it was a huge investment in an all new platform. It's their version of the F6B. I don't know how well bikes sell in that segment, but, so long as they sell enough volume to recoup the development and certification (DOT/EPA, TÜV, etc), then it is a net positive for their bottom line.
The R1200GS, despite being the most expensive bike in the ADV space seems to sell quite well. I see more of those on the road than any other ADV bike.
BMW also recognize that the future is electric. They've got an electric maxi scooter, the C Evolution, that'll likely be a good seller in Europe, and possibly other markets as well.
Harley Davidson have have also made an effort to expand market share, especially in markets outside the US (which is where all the growth is). They water-cooled 500 and 750cc Street lineup likely are very good sellers outside the US. I think that their new Softail lineup with breath new life into the company's sales as well. It really is a big improvement over the old Softail and Dyna lineups that it replaces. Still, they, and Indian are still somewhat monolithic, focusing mostly on the cruiser market. That cruiser market is a big slice of the US motorcycle market pie though, so, it works for them.
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That cruiser market is a big slice of the US motorcycle market pie though, so, it works for them.
That market is much more than half the street bike market in the US. I mean Harley itself still has half then there's the "cruiserish" products from JAPanInc, Triumph, Guzzi,very and even an arguable contender from Ducati and BMW here and there.
But even I have always thought it would make sense for them to branch out.
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BMW motortards target market is very similar totheir auto target market. BMW is not looking for guys who change their own oil on anything.
My understanding is a light aircraft sales are off largely due to excessive regulation and super high cost.
Does anyone have evidence that PIaggo is making money off of any of their motorcycle divisions?
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BMW is not looking for guys who change their own oil on anything.
That's the whole issue. In the past BMW owners reveled in the fine engineering of their machines.
Now, ... it's different. The bike belongs to the dealer. You just ride it.
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That's the whole issue. In the past BMW owners reveled in the fine engineering of their machines.
Now, ... it's different. The bike belongs to the dealer. You just ride it.
I think this is just grass is greener syndrome. As Dusty pointed out there have always been these types in their customer base. As others pointed out there are still DIYers in their customer base.
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In the past BMW owners reveled in the fine engineering of their machines.
Now, ... it's different. The bike belongs to the dealer. You just ride it.
That's exactly what they have in mind. They'll let you know when it's time to bring money for a new one. :wink: Engineering that dependence plus selling the memory of the previous era is how you 'build a relationship' in the eyes of 2017 upmarket motorcycle product managers. Ick.
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That's exactly what they have in mind. They'll let you know when it's time to bring money for a new one. :wink: Engineering that dependence plus selling the memory of the previous era is how you 'build a relationship' in the eyes of 2017 upmarket motorcycle product managers. Ick.
You are right. Argh, I wish it was different.
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I guess nobody sees the irony in a bunch of oldsters who cluster around a niche brand that sells a few thousand bikes a year bitching about how BMW Motorrad has gone off its wheels and does not understand that if they only resurrected a /5 airhead with 35 horsepower that was idiot proof to work on then all would be great.
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I guess nobody sees the irony in a bunch of oldsters who cluster around a niche brand that sells a few thousand bikes a year bitching about how BMW Motorrad has gone off its wheels and does not understand that if they only resurrected a /5 airhead with 35 horsepower that was idiot proof to work on then all would be great.
Niche? Guzzi makes BMW look mainstream.
And ya know, BMW is mainstream.
Guzzi is mini-niche.
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I guess nobody sees the irony in a bunch of oldsters who cluster around a niche brand that sells a few thousand bikes a year bitching about how BMW Motorrad has gone off its wheels and does not understand that if they only resurrected a /5 airhead with 35 horsepower that was idiot proof to work on then all would be great.
The /5 isn't very interesting to me. I like a quality, long lived bike built as simple and maintainable as it can be while having performance that's good enough to work within the era of its manufacture. Some of the early 90s paralever BMWs were good in that regard, today they'd need maybe 80 HP for the current market and that's actually a good number for riding too. A good rider can utilize about that much power in a 21st century chassis, and the kind of bike being described can be made in 2017 with that much power.
Selecting from what you actually can buy in 2017, I like the Kawasaki Versys more than BMWs comparable bikes. Honda makes some nice bikes too and respects customer individuality more than BMW while selling about 130 times as many bikes. Suzuki makes the DL650 which maybe isn't quite as good as it could be. BMWs closest competitor would be the F800 series with Rotax designed engine and Aprilia designed chassis - both better than what BMW has engineered independently. But I think the F800 is burdened by being marketed by BMW, with Euro-Gee-Gaws and dealer dependence crapola in play. I can't imagine paying more for a less pleasant ownership experience.
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Well, this is interesting to say the least.
A few years ago when H-D "removed" about 30% of their people, including several higher up in sales and marketing, BMWNA brought some of them on. Now, this begs the question. Did H-D lay off the top 30 % of it's folks or the bottom? If you ask my BMW car and bike dealer neighbor you'd have a very interesting conversation about how the bike business is being managed (or not) in North America.
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Hello forum,
It's been about 1.5 years since the last post so I figure enough time may have passed to finally ask:
Strictly from a product experience standpoint, for those that have the 820cc 4V kit installed on your V7, how many miles have you accumulated on your V7 since the guzzitech conversion and how reliable has it been during that time?
I'd like to keep the subject of financial logic of commiting to the retrofit aside. Would appreciate the feedback limted to regarding product performance (durability, reliability, longevity, etc) of the 820cc 4V kit
Thank you kindly
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hey Kramer,
welcome to the forum,
so...
-you've politely enquired for knowledge regarding Guzzitech's modding capabilities and run into the fairly bad rep that Todd has on this forum
-you're saying that aesthetics are really important for you and that you want a light bike, with enough power for decent speed work, and that the bike has to be modern.
Makes sense. I'm in agreement with you that most modern bikes look pretty ugly.
If you're really attached to your V7, you can try and mod it. But i personally wouldn't recommend it.
FWIW My experience with Todd's tuning maps for the 1100 motor was that a- he was very polite and prompt in all communications but b- his maps were very expensive and quite poor. Thanks to the guzzidiag freeware, it's possible to 'read' the maps that Todd created and I wasn't personally convinced by them.
You mention the Ducati GT1000 in your post, I owned one for a few years but unfortunately crashed it. Its a good bike, looks awesome in gunmetal grey and handles much better than the V7 for sure.
As you're looking for opinions - I would say...
buy something faster if you want to go faster, and the Ducati could fit the bill.
...that said, if you could drop the 'modern' criteria from what you're looking for then I could think of many many beautiful reliable bikes that will do exactly what you want!
(I'm not of the opinion that modern Guzzis are really any more reliable than the old ones...)
Hope that helps
:thumb:
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man oh man
I just saw the thread drift and relaised the OP was 2 years ago!!!
Go and ride everybody nothing to see here!!!
:weiner:
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wot he said
but it was Mike Wrenn on here that fired up the 8v sb thing a few years ago, almost certainly the provocation for my one, had to prove it for myself (650 carbs and points)
Searched for any follow up on his or the Guzzitech conversions, never found anything, interesting if any were ever built
Maybe you should ask question on guzzitech forum?
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wot he said
but it was Mike Wrenn on here that fired up the 8v sb thing a few years ago, almost certainly the provocation for my one, had to prove it for myself (650 carbs and points)
Searched for any follow up on his or the Guzzitech conversions, never found anything, interesting if any were ever built
Maybe you should ask question on guzzitech forum?
Before Todd's move to Orange, I stopped in at his place, and he had two 8vs sitting there. I could have ridden one, but was on a tight schedule. He and Mike had bought up about every small block 8V head in existence at the time.. :smiley: I'm *assuming* several were built.
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Based on kit of parts availability on GuzziTech's website, I would assume multiple were assembled/built and owned by respective owners.
Perhaps nobody on this forum, wildguzzi, had retrofitted their V7 with GuzziTech's 820cc 4valve kit.
Thanks!
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Based on kit of parts availability on GuzziTech's website, I would assume multiple were assembled/built and owned by respective owners.
Perhaps nobody on this forum, wildguzzi, had retrofitted their V7 with GuzziTech's 820cc 4valve kit.
Thanks!
Not to the best of my knowledge..
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Based on kit of parts availability on GuzziTech's website, I would assume multiple were assembled/built and owned by respective owners.
Perhaps nobody on this forum, wildguzzi, had retrofitted their V7 with GuzziTech's 820cc 4valve kit.
Thanks!
do post on here whatever you find out, I for one am interested in project, my assumption was dead in the water, lack of punters maybe ?
inlight of new v85, a comparison is due
I am building another too but prob sticking with 650cc , something of a bhp/ litre challenge unrestrained by emission rules/ constraints
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It’s not a bad thing, but I suspect most guys that would do a conversion like that wouldn’t be hanging out round these parts.
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I added a big bore kit to my '09 V7 years ago. The kit was from Italy, by piston maker R.A.M. I kept the orig valves and added a programmable ECU from MyECU of Australia. Easy to do all, but took time to get the engine running at peak. A lot of tweaking, adjusting, etc. After purchase support from R.A.M. was a little weak, but MyECU was terrific (they have their own forum and also used to post on the V11 Lemans forum).
Mentioning that kit on Guzzitech led to me getting banned there. Owner has little tolerance for talking about competing parts on his board.
Joe
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Why not test ride a V7 III? Consider it part of your research. It will give you a feel for the greater power output, and if you did buy it the two year warranty is a lot more than a performance shop will give you.
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Why not test ride a V7 III? Consider it part of your research. It will give you a feel for the greater power output, and if you did buy it the two year warranty is a lot more than a performance shop will give you.
I basically just teased that solution in the cam thread too.
That said, I get that some people just want to have the fun of chasing these projects.
Either way, keep us posted.
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Why not test ride a V7 III? Consider it part of your research. It will give you a feel for the greater power output, and if you did buy it the two year warranty is a lot more than a performance shop will give you.
Yep, this is probably the right move albeit will require lengthier process (sell, inspect/buy)
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hey Kramer,
welcome to the forum,
so...
....
If you're really attached to your V7, you can try and mod it. But i personally wouldn't recommend it.
.....
As you're looking for opinions - I would say...
buy something faster if you want to go faster, and the Ducati could fit the bill.
Want a classic looking bike that goes a lot faster than a V7? Get one fo the 1200cc Triumph twins. Thruxton, Thruxton R, Speed Twin, T120. You'll likely end up with less money into it than the 820cc/4V conversion + value of your V7, and have more resale value.
OR, wait for Guzzi to put the new V85 motor in a V7 styled bike.