Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bonaventure on October 26, 2017, 08:38:44 PM
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https://shop.revzilla.com/common-tread/yamaha-niken-is-ridiculous-and-awesome
https://www.yamahamotorsports.com/sport-touring/pages/ride-the-revolution
Register my vote for conflagration. Just don't see the advantage of the two front wheels. More forks to maintain. I guess it would garner lots of stares and looks though, if that's what one is after.
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a solution for a non existing problem?
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Double the front tire traction. Less risk of washing out the front of the bike.
If I had a leg injury that would keep me from holding up a standard bike, I would be interested.
I like what tilting motorworks is doing for the touring segment as well.
Of course the ride is what matters more than the look to me.
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The guys I know that ride trikes do so because they can't hold the bike up at a stop. I think they would love to be back on a leaner.
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Let’s make motorcycles more complex and increase maintenance costs simultaneously. Woohoo!
There’s only one question to ask. Why?
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So let me point out the obvious - how is this so different from the Piaggio MP3 or the Can Am Spyder? They may not lean to the same degree, and the Can Am is certainly a step further away from a traditional motorcycle design, but as a concept I just don't see a reason to dismiss it out of hand.
It's unlikely that it would come to market in the EICMA show form, but it's part of the purpose of such events to give companies and their designers a chance to mess around and show some different ideas. Sometimes very different...
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Far as I'm concerned being a Piaggio MP3 owner of 2, this is a loser. It's heavy and has no centerstand and has a conventional sidestand. A MP3 has a centerstand and doesn't need a sidestand because it has something far better......a motorized lock upright feature no matter if the ground you stop on is level or not. :bow: It also has a parking brake on the rear disc. This Yamaha trike is heavy and unlike a somewhat heavy MP3, which can be easily rolled around even with camping gear on it when locked upright, no way will you be able to do that on the Yamaha trike. :evil: Sure, this Yam. trike is a lot faster but so what? It has none of the storage a MP3 has either. Only thing it does have like a MP3 is 2 wheels in front that give you a big + when riding in the rain and you don't have to worry about your 1 front tire sliding out. :cool:
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A pigio MP3 on lots of steroids.
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I think I’ll move on to scooters or sports cars when I start having a hard time with motorcycles...the three wheelers just aren’t my cup of tea.
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Double the front tire traction. Less risk of washing out the front of the bike.
Of course the ride is what matters more than the look to me.
At first when I saw your forum name I'd got the impression you were hooked on motorbikes.
Seems you're not as much of an addict as you thought !
Also Dusty chatted a while ago about tyre adhesion as a function of square inches of rubber on the road.
Shit mate ! With all those "tyres on the road", imagine how safe a Banana Split buggy must have been !
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At first when I saw your forum name I'd got the impression you were hooked on motorbikes.
Seems you're not as much of an addict as you thought !
Also Dusty chatted a while ago about tyre adhesion as a function of square inches of rubber on the road.
Shit mate ! With all those "tyres on the road", imagine how safe a Banana Split buggy must have been !
Not sure where you are going with your post, but I also love bicycles. Basically anything with 2 wheels and I will give it a go. I was just commenting to the original poster who couldn't understand having two front tires on a leaning bike.
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I hope you like changing fork seals, WT?!! I worked on & road MP3's and think they are superior to that thing. If you need more there is the Mana engine, this would really make it a hoot.
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The test pilot is wearing appropriate gear: It looks like he is in a hurry to report back to Darth Vader. The NIKEN just looks too arachnid for me. Maybe make a Sturgis Edition (TM) with a front clip off a 57 Chevy or a Willies coupe? :embarrassed:
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I have heard that virtually nothing can get down a mountainside than a MP3.
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At first when I saw your forum name I'd got the impression you were hooked on motorbikes.
Seems you're not as much of an addict as you thought !
Also Dusty chatted a while ago about tyre adhesion as a function of square inches of rubber on the road.
Shit mate ! With all those "tyres on the road", imagine how safe a Banana Split buggy must have been !
Just to clarify , traction is independent of contact patch area . Those two front tires don't increase traction .
Dusty
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”cruisers” and bikes that resemble an insect 🐜 or a transformer are really not nice to look at for me. But that is a really cute outfit he’s sporting!
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Besides the dream of double wheelies, what does Niken mean? I’m no expert in Japanese, but I know ni means “two.” Which is strange, because I can think of a few other Yamaha products that could be described as having a pair of wheels.
Niken = Two swords
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Niken = Two swords
That's the only thing I've read here today that made any sense. :thumb:
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Watched a Niken video a little while ago of a robot looking rider screwing around with 2 swords. :huh: Guess I know why now. http://www.motorcycledaily.com
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I just watched a 12 min. video of a 2017 bike show in Japan? of 2018 Yamaha products that showed the Niken and a 155cc MP3 type scooter apparently available in Japan but not here. :huh: There were also 2- 4 wheel street vehicles that lean.
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I've got a Honda nv50 stream, its got two wheels at the back and tilts . Its awful but weirdly fun. Could combine this with a two front wheeled tilter and have a 4 wheeled bike. Just an idea.
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That's the only thing I've read here today that made any sense. :thumb:
I like it actually, always wished someone make a three (tilt-able) wheeler with a bigger and more charismatic engine. Can-Am on the other hand is more car alike to me.
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Just to clarify , traction is independent of contact patch area . Those two front tires don't increase traction .
Dusty
In the "real" world, those two front tires reduce the chance of tire slipping due to imperfections and debris in the road. Where one tire might roll over some gravel, sand, etc. in the curve and slip, the other tire might avoid the debris and keep the bike tracking through the curve. That was the point I was trying to make in my post without going into this level of detail.
You can't equate two separate tires into the same "one tire, larger contact patch" equations.
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Just to clarify , traction is independent of contact patch area . Those two front tires don't increase traction .
Dusty
They do when 1 front tire hits an object on the road and the other front tire doesn't when both front tires are independently sprung. I have experienced it on my MP3s and it's hardly felt at the handlebar. :wink: :cool:
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They do when 1 front tire hits an object on the road and the other front tire doesn't when both front tires are independently sprung. I have experienced it on my MP3s and it's hardly felt at the handlebar. :wink: :cool:
Randy , not exactly sure what you are saying . My point is that contact patch size is not connected to traction . Basic physics . In fact , on dry pavement given the same tire compound , a single front tire with equal loading will have better traction , because the only way to increase traction is with a softer compound , or to increase the weight/load .
Dusty
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I can't agree, Dusty. 2 of the same front tire doubles traction & braking IMHO. With 1 front tire at really high corner speed if your bike handles good enough and you are a good enough rider you can slide/push the front tire thru the corner on it's tread sidewall. BTDT. No need to do that with 2 front tires because you have twice the traction on the front. Maybe after you ride a MP3 you will understand what I'm saying. :wink:
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I can't agree, Dusty. 2 of the same front tire doubles traction & braking IMHO. With 1 front tire at really high corner speed if your bike handles good enough and you are a good enough rider you can slide the front tire thru the corner on it's tread sidewall. BTDT. No need to do that with 2 front tires because you have twice the traction on the front. Maybe after you ride a MP3 you will understand what I'm saying. :wink:
Randy , do just a bit of reading , that's all I can say . Start with Kevin Cameron . What you are describing is stability , not traction , two different concepts . The laws of physics are the laws of physics are the laws of physics .
Dusty
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Randy , do just a bit of reading , that's all I can say . Start with Kevin Cameron . What you are describing is stability , not traction , two different concepts . The laws of physics are the laws of physics are the laws of physics .
Dusty
I respect Cameron but it seems to me stability/traction are 1 in the same.
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I respect Cameron but it seems to me stability/traction are 1 in the same.
No , separate concepts . I understand this is hard to grasp , but traction and contact patch area are unrelated . Traction is dependent on loading per square inch , and tire compound . No idea what type of tire the MP3 runs up front , probably fairly soft , and separating them by the use of independent suspension will allow one tire to stay in constant contact with the road no matter what the other tire is doing . That would probably be advantageous , as would one tire being on a surface free of anything like gravel or sand that decreases traction . In fact if one tire is lifted from the pavement the load on the other would increase , which would increase the traction available to the tire still in contact with the pavement . Watch how a racing car corners , often times lifting the inside tires off the pavement , thus increasing the load on the outside tires .
Dusty
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I have heard that virtually nothing can get down a mountainside than a MP3.
Tumbling car perchance ?
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You need to ride a MP3 to understand how it's suspension works, Dusty. :wink:
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Randy , do just a bit of reading , that's all I can say . Start with Kevin Cameron . What you are describing is stability , not traction , two different concepts . The laws of physics are the laws of physics are the laws of physics .
Dusty
:popcorn:
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You need to ride a MP3 to understand how it's suspension works, Dusty. :wink:
:popcorn: :popcorn: !!!
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You need to ride a MP3 to understand how it's suspension works, Dusty. :wink:
I have ridden one Randy , they are pretty cool . That doesn't change the laws of physics as they apply to traction .
Something I am curious about , with two front tires , there must be some weight transfer to the outside tire during cornering , right ? Or are the forces involved in the way a leaning vehicle corners canceling the weight transfer . Prescott , Huzo , Kirby ? One of you engineers/physicists help me out here .
Dusty
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To be honest Dusty, I'm not a Physicist, but I did engineering at Uni and have a working knowledge as do you.
Having said that.
Yes the leaning of the vehicle will place the C of M toward the inner tyre which reduces the tendency to "flip", but the total mass hasn't changed so the resistance to centripetal force is unchanged.
(Notice I didn't use the term "centrifugal", it's actually an incorrect term and it's one "c" word a true Physicist won't use).
I feel a thread coming on, now back to the Dusty, Arizona Wayne bout.
I was enjoying that. :popcorn:
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To be honest Dusty, I'm not a Physicist, but I did engineering at Uni and have a working knowledge as do you.
Having said that.
Yes the leaning of the vehicle will place the C of M toward the inner tyre which reduces the tendency to "flip", but the total mass hasn't changed so the resistance to centripetal force is unchanged.
(Notice I didn't use the term "centrifugal", it's actually an incorrect term and it's one "c" word a true Physicist won't use).
I feel a thread coming on, now back to the Dusty, Arizona Wayne bout.
I was enjoying that. :popcorn:
Yeah , I understand about centripetal (or fake) force , it is the string that pulls a bike towards the center of an arc , and how CoG or mass plays its role in cornering . What I am curious about is how the vectoring forces (I may not be saying this right) , or the rotation of mass around the steering center of a vehicle with two front tires affects load on the outside tire . Maybe Huzo explained it , gotta reread his post .
Dusty
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I have ridden one Randy , they are pretty cool . That doesn't change the laws of physics as they apply to traction .
Something I am curious about , with two front tires , there must be some weight transfer to the outside tire during cornering , right ? Or are the forces involved in the way a leaning vehicle corners canceling the weight transfer . Prescott , Huzo , Kirby ? One of you engineers/physicists help me out here .
Dusty
If there is on a MP3 I can't feel it. I have never taken any physics and my knowledge is by seat of my pants experience riding MP3s, road racing MCs in my past. I can't explain how things I feel/experience are happening, just what I can do as a rider with what's happening. All I know is the front end on a MP3 is far more solid on paved road whether dry or wet than on any MC I have ever ridden. Going thru a curve on a MP3 at a good clip is simpler to deal with than on a mc It's a no brainer. You don't even have to think about it. You just do it. :cool: On a loose surface the opposite is true compared to doing it on a MC w/dirt tires. :evil:
In reality when turning left in a corner I guess some weight is shifting to the right but you hardly feel it happening due to 2 separate front wheels sharing that weight and the left lean of your scooter body w/you on it.
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If there is on a MP3 I can't feel it. I have never taken any physics and my knowledge is by seat of my pants experience riding MP3s, road racing MCs in my past. I can't explain how things I feel/experience are happening, just what I can do as a rider with what's happening. All I know is the front end on a MP3 is far more solid on paved road whether dry or wet than on any MC I have ever ridden. Going thru a curve on a MP3 at a good clip is simpler to deal with than on a mc It's a no brainer. You don't even have to think about it. You just do it. :cool: On a loose surface the opposite is true compared to doing it on a MC w/dirt tires. :evil:
In reality when turning left in a corner I guess some weight is shifting to the right but you hardly feel it happening due to 2 separate front wheels sharing that weight and the left lean of your scooter body w/you on it.
You got it !
On a trike you are sitting (fundamentally) upright in a turn and the rig is being accelerated toward the turn centre, your body wants to continue straight on (Newton), and you'll feel it as a tendency to be, well ummm "tossed off" so to speak.
Now in the case of the other thing...
Although the rig is being accelerated towards the centre as before, the mass is leaning and the summation of gravity (acting vertically) and centripetal force ( acting horizontally inward) combine on your body to give a resultant vector directly from the centre of your butt, up through your spine and out through the centre of your cranium ! It's akin to the theory of why you don't feel any sideways forces in a correctly balanced turn in an aircraft, ( or a glider if you gave enough "class" to fly one) :evil:
As a subtext though, I'm a bit dubious about having massive braking advantage/bias on the front with the centre of mass behind and the (theoretical) tendency to swap ends under hard braking.
Reminiscent of ground looping tail wheel aircraft, Pawnees and Piper Cubs et al...
But anyway, they seem to work ok..Never been on one, never will.
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Randy , that weight shifting thing is what I am trying to work out , but it seems Huzo explained that there is no weight transfer .
So , exploring this just a bit farther , here is what I think you are experiencing with the MP3 VS a single track vehicle , and how this isn't traction but stability .
First , we will delve into the traction thing , which is nothing more than friction . Place one hand on a table W/O any pressure applied , now slide it across the table , it won't take much force . Now, push down on the hand and slide it across the table , notice it takes more force to make the hand slide . That is traction being increased by loading . Or do the same experiment with a board tied to a rope . Doesn't matter whether it is placed on its narrow or wide side , it requires the same amount of force to move . Still just traction .
Now , about the increased stability provided by the two front tires . Try standing on one leg , you wobble back and forth , now place both feet on the ground , you become more stable , correct . Pretty sure that this is what you are experiencing , stability , because once again , traction is not related to contact patch .
Dusty
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One of the things I enjoy about riding two wheelers is tilting the horizon (leaning). If this technology keeps improving, I could see it extending my riding years. This is exciting to me.
The physics of what is happening up front on one wheel verses two when the vehicle leans over moving the CG and resultant forces is pretty cool to contemplate. I would think as the bike leans over the inner tire will see an increase in load, unlike a car that doesn't lean much where the centripetal force loads up the outer tire. Seems like the suspension springs might accentuate the forces. Science is cool. :boozing:
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Probably suggesting Dusty that centre of mass although slightly displaced "inward" gives less tendency to flip.
It's the balancing of the vectors of gravity (vertical) and centripetal (horizontal) on the acceleration sensors in your ears (vestibular canals) that stop you sensing sideways accelerations and that keep the forces straight through your body from your ass to your head and that is the resultant force we experience for 99% of our time in earth.
All very familiar and reassuring. If you hang a pendulum on your fairing screen it'll point straight down at you petrol cap, now I haven't done it, but I'll bet my flat tappets that in a turn on your motorbicycle, that pendulum will always point to the gas cap no matter how far you lean,
Unless you crash :embarrassed:
Same principle.
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One of the things I enjoy about riding two wheelers is tilting the horizon (leaning). If this technology keeps improving, I could see it extending my riding years. This is exciting to me.
The physics of what is happening up front on one wheel verses two when the vehicle leans over moving the CG and resultant forces is pretty cool to contemplate. I would think as the bike leans over the inner tire will see an increase in load, unlike a car that doesn't lean much where the centripetal force loads up the outer tire. Seems like the suspension springs might accentuate the forces. Science is cool. :boozing:
In one respect the inside tyre will be loaded up Darren, but remember that the C of M is above the point of support and there is still a tendency for the whole shooting match to go arse up if you go excessively fast, by loading the outside tyre (like a car), but I don't have an empirical idea of the transverse load bias in a turn.
The load on the outside tyre must be increasing as a function of turning forces though, because every man and his dog knows that if you keep going faster and faster it will eventually flip toward the outside.
Ouch !!!
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It seems logical that the vertical and horizontal forces would be equalizing based on lean angle that lowers and moves the CG inward , until you run out of lean angle. So that would then lead me to think the balance point of the two forces to be in the middle of the two front wheels giving no advantage to either.
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so if all the yada-yada says the force is on the inside wheel, why do circle track cars have the outside front wheel reinforced? Why does a hack want to lift the car when it's turning into it? Why does my trike squat the outside wheel? Newton? Bueller? :evil:
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so if all the yada-yada says the force is on the inside wheel, why do circle track cars have the outside front wheel reinforced? Why does a hack want to lift the car when it's turning into it? Why does my trike squat the outside wheel? Newton? Bueller? :evil:
Those vehicles don't lean towards the inside of the arc .
Dusty
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I'm not sure this is completely relevant, but every comparison of a F1 car vs Moto go bike or similar on the same track and conditions, the car spanks the bike, only because the car is able to corner much faster than a bike.
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I'm not sure this is completely relevant, but every comparison of a F1 car vs Moto go bike or similar on the same track and conditions, the car spanks the bike, only because the car is able to corner much faster than a bike.
Cornering speed is higher , but above 120 MPH a modern f1 car accelerates much faster than a motogp bike . Aero plays a role in both acceleration and cornering speeds .
Dusty
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, I'm a bit dubious about having massive braking advantage/bias on the front with the centre of mass behind and the (theoretical) tendency to swap ends under hard braking.
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My maxi-scooters have linked braking just like most Tonti Guzzis by the 2 front handlebar levers. 1 lever pulls 1 front brake & the rear brake. The other lever pulls the other front brake. So all your brake control is in your hands and it's easy to control the braking this way. Also you have 3 tires/brakes instead of just 2 like on a 2 wheeler and very little front nose dive like on a MC when you grab a handfull at once. Your braking is much more evenly distributed like on a car. :thumb: Your throttle is twist & go with a centrifugal clutch to belt drive. No gear changing, which takes a little getting used to.
In 9 years of riding my MP3s I have never had an issue of the rear end ever wanting to come around on me when stopping. It always stops straight and true. :grin: Maybe the fact the motor/rear drive is all 1 unit helps. Some maxi scooters are more set up like MCs in design, but not the Italian 1s.
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Randy , do just a bit of reading , that's all I can say . Start with Kevin Cameron . What you are describing is stability , not traction , two different concepts . The laws of physics are the laws of physics are the laws of physics .
Dusty
Dusty, you are missing the point. What you are stating is theoretical and applies to a consistent surface. A little debris, or slick in the road and you are going down. But with two tires up front, one tire can go through the debris and lose traction, but the other tire that isn't in the debris retains traction and takes you through the curve.
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Dusty, you are missing the point. What you are stating is theoretical and applies to a consistent surface. A little debris, or slick in the road and you are going down. But with two tires up front, one tire can go through the debris and lose traction, but the other tire that isn't in the debris retains traction and takes you through the curve.
I stated that in a different post . My original clarification to Huzo's post was simply in reference to the fallacy that traction is dependent on the size of a contact patch .
Dusty
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I saw this first in a magazine test and later confirmed it on my own MP3 400
At speed, in my case 70mph when pushing it hard through a corner, the front tyres have a somewhat unnerving characteristic of "walking" across the road. Describing it would suggest that one tyre slips a little, then the other grips, because the net result is that the front end develops a slight "wagging" or wig=wag motion.
I found that disconcerting, because it drifted towards the outside of the corner at the same time, but only when pushing it hard at high speed (which is the way I ride).
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so if all the yada-yada says the force is on the inside wheel, why do circle track cars have the outside front wheel reinforced? Why does a hack want to lift the car when it's turning into it? Why does my trike squat the outside wheel? Newton? Bueller? :evil:
Dunno 'bout the others, but I didn't want to suggest that the weight is on the inside wheel.
Indeed, if you look at the contraption from the front, and imagine a point where each (front) wheel touches the ground and another point on the C of M, which will be somewhere near the centre of your guts all things considered, you will see a triangle (3 points), but not an equilateral one. There will be one of the non horizontal, (can't say vertical) lines a bit longer than the other.
As the things enters a turn, the C of M tries to tip the triangle over, subsequently weighting the OUTSIDE wheel (point) more heavily as a function of the mass and rate of turn.
However...
The RIDER won't feel a sideways acceleration though, due to the aforementioned resultant vector straight through the vertical centreline of your body.
Honestly.
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I'm not sure this is completely relevant, but every comparison of a F1 car vs Moto go bike or similar on the same track and conditions, the car spanks the bike, only because the car is able to corner much faster than a bike.
The car can slide without the whole lot becoming negatively stable, unlike a bike.
Positive stability is when a system will revert to it's original state when not actioned upon by an external force.
Neutral stability is when it will not depart further nor return to original state when external force removed, (car)
Negatively stable is when, once the system is disturbed by external force, the departure into oblivion will be accelerated and not return to original state. (Bike)
Also I'd suggest that the car has more mass.
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The NIKEN just looks too arachnid for me.
I had the same thought. Something like this perhaps?
(http://somethingscrawlinginmyhair.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Female.jumping.spider.green_.chelicerae.facing.jpg)
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I saw this first in a magazine test and later confirmed it on my own MP3 400
At speed, in my case 70mph when pushing it hard through a corner, the front tyres have a somewhat unnerving characteristic of "walking" across the road. Describing it would suggest that one tyre slips a little, then the other grips, because the net result is that the front end develops a slight "wagging" or wig=wag motion.
I found that disconcerting, because it drifted towards the outside of the corner at the same time, but only when pushing it hard at high speed (which is the way I ride).
Sounds to me like you ride your MP3 too fast for it's capabilities some times, unless you don't mind how it reacts.