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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Flea on November 02, 2017, 09:00:58 AM

Title: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: Flea on November 02, 2017, 09:00:58 AM
Typically this happens during very hot days, but lately it's been happening more often.

This morning on my ride in, I had a very hard time shifting from first to neutral at a standstill. However, while the bike is on the move, it shifts effortlessly.

By the time I got to work (1hr), the bike completely refused to shift from first even while I am pushing up on the shifter with a ton of force.

Fresh oil was put in about 1000 miles ago. And it only happens when the bike is running hot. Besides a complete tear down, what should I be looking for?

Thanks
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: Groover on November 02, 2017, 09:03:31 AM
Adjust clutch cable?
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: guzzisteve on November 02, 2017, 09:14:33 AM
What model? Try letting clutch out to rotate trans a bit, while preload shifter, should pop in.
Could be cable adj--
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: Flea on November 02, 2017, 09:27:29 AM
2013 v7

Will look at cable adjustment. I've tried rolling the bike a few feet to see if it'll shift, but no dice.

When I shut off the bike, it pops into neutral and 2nd effortlessly.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: sign216 on November 02, 2017, 10:23:52 AM
Adjust clutch cable?

My first answer too.  The factory calls for only 1mm of slack in the cable.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 02, 2017, 10:28:01 AM
What people are saying is that the clutch is dragging from not being *completely* disengaged. If there is not enough adjustment at the clutch lever, there is another on the transmission itself. It is important, however, to make sure there is some free play in the lever, or the throw out bearing will be constantly rotating and wear out.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: Wayne Orwig on November 02, 2017, 10:54:43 AM
2013 v7

Will look at cable adjustment. I've tried rolling the bike a few feet to see if it'll shift, but no dice.

When I shut off the bike, it pops into neutral and 2nd effortlessly.
Clutch drag. Working on a similar issue on a Bassa. Broken clutch plate.
Check cables and such.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171102/ecc4ee6e52b2f45e62d859abe95ce56d.jpg)

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Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 02, 2017, 11:42:33 AM
well, yeah.  :smiley: In the worse case scenario, that can be it. Everyone else is assuming a newby from the way he's explaining what is going on..
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: Tom on November 02, 2017, 04:09:36 PM
ehhhhhhhhhhh........
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: slowmover on November 02, 2017, 05:07:11 PM
It's the only complaint about my 2013 Stone.My problem is from neutral to first at a stoplight. I've tried everything suggested ,adjusting the lever, pre-loading the foot lever and trying to find where it"snicks"in ,rolling it forward ect. It's never consistent. Sometimes she goes easy and the next stop she clunks.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: normzone on November 02, 2017, 05:39:25 PM
Well, then even a tyro such as myself can play the game.

Take a look at your shift linkage and make sure nothing has or is about to fall off.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: Tom on November 02, 2017, 05:52:34 PM
 :1:  The main bushing on your linkage may not be moving properly for shifting.  You may want to clean and grease it.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: Steph on November 02, 2017, 05:55:31 PM
Try giving it a bit of throttle moments before shifting to spin the gearbox internals a bit faster. Brutalizing the gear lever with your foot will get you nowhere, well yes, maybe a damaged gearbox fork selector
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: normzone on November 02, 2017, 06:48:28 PM
  Besides a complete tear down, what should I be looking for?

It would be a lot more entertaining if you did a complete teardown first, THEN tried all the other suggestions.

But it's late in the day, and I'm easily entertained. Never mind, follow the instructions as above.

I pulled my transmission once thinking my clutch was done for - it turned out to be the spline gear in the rear wheel hub was worn to where it would engage at low revs but in first gear on the centerstand you could stop the wheel turning with the sole of your boot. Never saw that one coming - the bike ran wonderfully until one day on the freeway I suddenly had five neutrals - well, six if you count the original one.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: Dofin on November 02, 2017, 09:45:58 PM
Had the same issue with my V7.  It was a simple cable adjustment.  If you have a lot of miles on the bike you might want to check the clutch adjustment clearance at the Tran?
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: Guzzi Gal on November 02, 2017, 10:16:07 PM
It's the only complaint about my 2013 Stone.My problem is from neutral to first at a stoplight. I've tried everything suggested ,adjusting the lever, pre-loading the foot lever and trying to find where it"snicks"in ,rolling it forward ect. It's never consistent. Sometimes she goes easy and the next stop she clunks.

Same here, with a snick, no thunks.  She doesn't like to go into first from neutral most of the time, but if I go into 2nd, then down to 1st, she's good to go. 
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: Muzz on November 02, 2017, 10:52:27 PM
I find that as the Breva warms up it is easier if I knock it in to neutral while still moving. (I don't like holding it in first at the lights). Goes in to first easily though.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: Chet Rugg on November 02, 2017, 11:30:51 PM
hopefullly waynes t heory is not the problem    I have seen that exact thing happen.
broken piece of clutch plate stacking on top of the other causing unexplainable problems.
adjust  all cables and free play good to go . take out for a ride good to go   next pull of lever everything bad again?
I said hopefully waynes theory is not the problem but wayne knows his stuff from shear experience.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: Chet Rugg on November 02, 2017, 11:32:57 PM
grease your shift linkage balls
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: perter on November 03, 2017, 03:22:00 AM
Flea, is that related to your other clutch issue post?
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=91765.msg1449802#msg1449802

From my poor experience I would suggest adjusting the clutch cable too, apparently the lock up happens only when the engine is running so the logical conclusion is clutch drag.

On the other hand, your August post could indicate some more serious trouble with the clutch? Has that ever been sorted?
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: fossil on November 03, 2017, 03:50:01 AM
Well, let´s assume the clutch cable is properly adjusted (it´s really no big thing). My 2013 Stone sometimes shows the same. Then I give a little pressure on the shift lever and let the clutch carefully grip a bit. Then it works on my bike.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: pebra on November 03, 2017, 04:40:13 AM
FWIW:
I had problems with clutching on my Griso, it was getting more and more difficult to change gears, acutely so after 13,000 km
Turned out a pressure bearing was missing.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: Kev m on November 03, 2017, 05:20:46 AM
My first answer too.  The factory calls for only 1mm of slack in the cable.

I knew it was a V7 too (ok, I guessed well) because every smallblock I ever demo'd from a dealer was not set up properly and I had to adjust the clutch cable in the parking lot or the side of the road.

1mm is not enough, I tend to set it to 2-3 mm and haven't had that problem since, on my 2013 V7 Stone that was almost as poorly setup by FBF as their demo I'd ridden just a month earlier.

Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: Flea on November 03, 2017, 06:54:23 AM
Thanks for the suggestions everyone! I didn't get to leave work until 7ish last night and by the time I got home (1ish) I was too tired to look at anything.

Since it was alot cooler at night, the bike shifted effortlessly... Going to take a look at the linkage this weekend in good light to make sure there aren't any overly grimey parts.

Anyone in NYC during the week?
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: jackpayback on November 03, 2017, 11:29:09 AM
Hey Flea,

I think you might be having a similar issue to me.  I have difficulty shifting when the bike gets hot and I completely ran out of clutch adjustment at the lever and at the transmission.  It's gotten progressively worse over time.

Hymes Inc. suggested that it is a bad clutch rod and throwout bearing.  Here is the post I made that he replied to.  http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=92653.msg1462965#msg1462965

He linked me to this AF1 Racing article about it: http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?326857-V7-Clutch-Rod-and-Throw-Out-Bearing-Replacement

I ordered and received the parts and I'm just waiting to get my bike back from repairs tonight.  Crashed the bike from a bike delivery guy cutting me off on a illegal right turn a few weeks ago.

I'm also in NYC, in Brooklyn.  I'm planning on doing the clutch rod replacement this weekend if I don't have to work.  You're welcome to join.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: Tom on November 03, 2017, 02:00:34 PM
You with all the crazies in the warehouse??
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: malik on November 03, 2017, 03:58:28 PM
Same here, with a snick, no thunks.  She doesn't like to go into first from neutral most of the time, but if I go into 2nd, then down to 1st, she's good to go.

On that new bike of yours, probably just a cable adjustment at the lever is required. Pull back the rubber, loosen off the large knurled ring lock, wind out the longer, smaller knurled  piece a few turns, check the free play, tighten back the lock nut, pull back the rubber. And try again. Note that the locknut has a distressing tendency to loosen under the rubber if only locked finger tight.

With time & experience, the symptoms become familiar, & you just stop & adjust.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: malik on November 03, 2017, 04:17:24 PM
There's another thread somewhere on here with a most succinct instruction for adjustment  top & bottom on the V7 by Pete Roper. In the same thread (or perhaps another around the same time) are photos of  a recessed outer body behind the clutch rod (at the gearbox end) indicating the need for a new thrust bearing. It's hard to search it on this tablet, but it's there - I've saved the Roper excerpt dated1Oct 2016 & 23 Apr 2015.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: Guzzi Gal on November 03, 2017, 04:22:13 PM
On that new bike of yours, probably just a cable adjustment at the lever is required. Pull back the rubber, loosen off the large knurled ring lock, wind out the longer, smaller knurled  piece a few turns, check the free play, tighten back the lock nut, pull back the rubber. And try again. Note that the locknut has a distressing tendency to loosen under the rubber if only locked finger tight.

With time & experience, the symptoms become familiar, & you just stop & adjust.
First she wouldn’t go into neutral for a couple of days, then all was well for a few.  After that, she started complaining about coming out of neutral.  The neutral light will go off, but goes back on when you try to engage the clutch.  So I snuged the cable up a touch, and it a became 50/50 chance of snicking in.  I installed adjustable levers last weekend, but haven’t had the chance to give ‘em a try (catching up on housework  :tongue: ).  I hope to try them out in a test ride this evening. 
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: malik on November 03, 2017, 04:57:33 PM
You will have loosened off the adjuster right off to get the new lever on, then re-set it. I leave the rubber sheath folded back until I'm happy with the adjustment. It's a bit of a pain, even with a touch of rubber grease. I also re-route the cable so that the 90 degree metal curve is pointing down rather than forward. That seems to help.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: Guzzi Gal on November 03, 2017, 06:24:42 PM
You will have loosened off the adjuster right off to get the new lever on, then re-set it. I leave the rubber sheath folded back until I'm happy with the adjustment. It's a bit of a pain, even with a touch of rubber grease. I also re-route the cable so that the 90 degree metal curve is pointing down rather than forward. That seems to help.

Thanks for the curve trick, I'll give it a try.  The rubber sheath moves without too much trouble, but I'd already left it back knowing work was still to be done.  The adjuster bolt, on the other hand, is a pain in the A$$!  It doesn't want to turn either way, even with the lock nut completely loose.   

I just rode Anni around the neighborhood, and initially the clutch would engage at about 1.5" from the grip.  After half a dozen uses, it started to catch at .5" out, so adjusted back out to about an inch.  Hopefully it will stay there, as my fingers aren't too happy with all the adjusting.   

Hitting neutral is still 50/50, but I didn't have to go into 2nd to get 'er into gear, just had to try 1st again.  Some improvement, is better than none. :thumb:
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: Tom on November 03, 2017, 06:34:53 PM
Lubing the barrel ends of the cable help.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: malik on November 05, 2017, 02:19:42 PM

......The adjuster bolt, on the other hand, is a pain in the A$$!  It doesn't want to turn either way, even with the lock nut completely loose.

That happened to me not so long ago. It was a pain & felt wrong having to use pliers on it It shouldn't be that way. I couldn't fix it, so I tried a new cable, with a mere smear of grease on the threads. Magic. Finger adjustments again.

I'll keep the old cable, clean it up & try it again sometime. And put a tag on it, telling the story of the problem, so I will know the cable is suspect.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: guzzisteve on November 05, 2017, 02:39:16 PM
I made a tool to adjust the one on my SP in 1981.  A piece of steel 1/8" thick 3/4" wide and 10" long. I cut a slot on one end wide enough to fit slot on adj.. Early tool kits had a short one bout 3" for doing valve adj and I hated working on hot bike w/it.
On the opposite end of tool cut the slot on the side then you can adjust every 1/4 turn.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: Guzzi Gal on November 05, 2017, 04:31:23 PM
It was a pain & felt wrong having to use pliers on it.
'Xactly!

Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: sign216 on November 05, 2017, 09:05:19 PM
That happened to me not so long ago. It was a pain & felt wrong having to use pliers on it It shouldn't be that way. I couldn't fix it, so I tried a new cable, with a mere smear of grease on the threads. Magic. Finger adjustments again.

I'll keep the old cable, clean it up & try it again sometime. And put a tag on it, telling the story of the problem, so I will know the cable is suspect.

And...I added a lock nut to try to keep things tight, but that's also a vain effort.

Just monitor it as always.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: freedom on November 07, 2017, 12:08:11 AM
Havin the same issue on my 2013 V7.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: John A on November 07, 2017, 10:11:00 AM
And the cable free play will change as the operating temp changes. Sometimes the accumulated tolerances are such that a happy medium can be found where it works hot and cold, mostly though I have to adjust it after it heats up. That's on small blocks as well as big blocks. I've no experience with hydraulicy actuated clutches
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: voncrump on November 08, 2017, 02:25:17 AM
And the cable free play will change as the operating temp changes. Sometimes the accumulated tolerances are such that a happy medium can be found where it works hot and cold, mostly though I have to adjust it after it heats up. That's on small blocks as well as big blocks. I've no experience with hydraulicy actuated clutches

When I replaced the clutch on my 1100 sport I spent a lot of time shagging around with the adjustment. Then I made a decision to set the lever clearance when the bike has warmed up. When it is cold it has almost no clearance. When warm it has about 5mm. I haven't touched it since.
I also have a V711 and I have adjusted the clutch once. The lever clutch lever on a lot of Guzzi's has to be pulled right into the bar to get clutch release. Short levers with a dog leg can be a problem.

Cheers, voncrump.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: TimmyTheHog on November 08, 2017, 10:13:53 AM
When I replaced the clutch on my 1100 sport I spent a lot of time shagging around with the adjustment. Then I made a decision to set the lever clearance when the bike has warmed up. When it is cold it has almost no clearance. When warm it has about 5mm. I haven't touched it since.
I also have a V711 and I have adjusted the clutch once. The lever clutch lever on a lot of Guzzi's has to be pulled right into the bar to get clutch release. Short levers with a dog leg can be a problem.

Cheers, voncrump.

My V7 is exactly this...not that excessive (1.5mm cold to 4~mm hot)...

Work well...might have a louder clunk when the bike is hot...but I have not miss a shift since the first 300 KM
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: Kev m on November 08, 2017, 10:28:52 AM
Havin the same issue on my 2013 V7.

FWIW, I made this adjustment to my 2013 Stone back in Dec 2012 and have not needed to repeat it since.
Title: Re: Difficulty shifting up from first at stand still
Post by: mtiberio on November 08, 2017, 10:46:35 AM
My buddy brought his Guzzi Lemans 1 by my garage, he was having trouble shifting up from first. We discovered his crankshaft was broken in half.