Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: M0T0Geezer on November 15, 2017, 05:59:13 PM
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So I came across these bevel-head photos and thought, Why Not for Moto Guzzi?
Shaft drive and a bevel gear is certainly OK for our rear ends, so why not for our heads? Less reciprocating mass to minimize valve float.
Besides, John Deere never thought it needed 4 valves, belts, and DOHC for its tractor engine heads, so why Guzzi?
(http://dansher.com/bikepix/Guzzi/BMW_Bevel_Head_1.jpg)
(http://dansher.com/bikepix/Guzzi/BMW_Bevel_Head_2.jpg)
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I have no idea, but that is beautiful
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Guzzi has emulated BMW before, but not with outstanding results. That kind of valve train actuation could conceivably work with Guzzi's 90 degree format, but would necessitate a bevel gear where the current cam lobes reside, plus something resembling the BMW gear tower and in-head cams. I think Guzzi's current arrangement is simpler, less expensive and works quite well, limited only by inability to reach high RPM.
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There are numerous reason not to use bevel gears to drive overhead cams, but for me the biggest ones would be cost to manufacture, difficulty of setting them up correctly and the amount of noise they'd make. There's a reason Ducati went to belts. Of recent bikes, the only one I can think of that used bevel gears is the Kawasaki W650 and derivatives.
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Kawasaki W800
(http://thumb.ibb.co/jy3rXm/W800.png) (http://ibb.co/jy3rXm)
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And that would be your derivative. Those W800 bevel gears sure are pretty. Does anyone make a gear gazer for those?
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Moto Guzzi had a bevel twin racer, the 500 Bicilindrica in 1951. http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/Classic%20Racers/moto_guzzi_500_1951.htm
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v198/Phang/va11.jpg)
the top bevel gears of my W400, they are beautiful but as mentioned by Charlie, they are noisy or rather having their own distinctive sound
gear contact patches got to check and set if you ever taking the engine apart, wildguzzi will have a two thousand pages topic on that discussion alone if Guzzi ever made a modern one.
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And that would be your derivative. Those W800 bevel gears sure are pretty. Does anyone make a gear gazer for those?
the shiny cover is ornamental, it looks like this behind the cover, not impossible but difficult to make one that is oil tight
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v198/Phang/screw1.1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v198/Phang/screw0.jpg)
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Guzzi was decades ahead of Ducati
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg217/canuck750/Moto%20Guzzi%20Museum/P7200217_zps4e3f1ca2.jpg) (http://s249.photobucket.com/user/canuck750/media/Moto%20Guzzi%20Museum/P7200217_zps4e3f1ca2.jpg.html)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg217/canuck750/Moto%20Guzzi%20Museum/P7200216_zps4270df97.jpg) (http://s249.photobucket.com/user/canuck750/media/Moto%20Guzzi%20Museum/P7200216_zps4270df97.jpg.html)
I spoke to a Ducati round case motor expert a couple years ago, he has been rebuilding them for decades and does a steady business fixing what amateurs screw up trying to set up the bevel on the their own, he has a special jig to load the gear train up across two axis. Bevels look cool but Ducati figured out they where just too complex to assemble and expensive to manufacture
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Most of the old Pommy racing singles from the twenties on used a bevel tower, it's not an *Italian* thing. Norton, Velocette, New Imperial and no doubt many more used a bevel drive on models like the Manx and KSS.
It's a lovely system but complex to assemble and expensive to produce, that's why chains, rather than bevel towers or gear trains became order of the day with the advent of the Japanese 'Explosion' in the sixties.
OHC engines, especially 'Double Knockers' were real exotica and presented a host of technical challenges, especially with valve guide oil seal. At least in part due to their technology simply being a slow evolution of exposed valvegear designs from previous generations of motor.
Pete
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Bevel drive was used on WW2 aircraft engines like the Merlin , Allison and Benz because it was "traditional" and reliable. Miller and Offenhauser race engine of the 30's used gear drive...
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v198/Phang/va11.jpg)
the top bevel gears of my W400, they are beautiful but as mentioned by Charlie, they are noisy or rather having their own distinctive sound
gear contact patches got to check and set if you ever taking the engine apart, wildguzzi will have a two thousand pages topic on that discussion alone if Guzzi ever made a modern one.
We never got the W400 in the States. Seems like it'd be a delightful bike. My W650 was! If Kaw had brought the W800 over, I'd have bought one. Loved the 650!
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We never got the W400 in the States. Seems like it'd be a delightful bike. My W650 was! If Kaw had brought the W800 over, I'd have bought one. Loved the 650!
we have all the three versions here, in my opinion, the 650 is the best amongst the three
400 is underpowered, the fuel injected 800 is too sterile and 650 is the only one with a kick starter
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The Crosley automobile engine used bevel gears to drive it's overhead cam.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/ioRTXm/Wolfsville_show_014.jpg) (http://ibb.co/ioRTXm)
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The little Crosley engine was also used as the powerhead on a Fageol 4 cycle boat motor in the early 1960s. I think they built it as a pure outboard that fastened to the transom, but the one owned by my older brother was a strange set-up indeed. It was a beautiful Barbour lapstrake runabout, but way too heavy for the small engine .... took forever to come up on plane.
- the Crosley engine was turned up on its end.
- a new sump located at the lower end of the engine permitted it to oil.
- the engine was attached to an outboard lower unit manufactured by Scott Atwater (anyone remember them?)
- the engine was located internally in the rear of the boat
- the lower unit went through a diaphragm in the bottom of the boat
The Guzzi breakfast is held at Mike's Place in Kent, Ohio, where several pieces of Fageol memorabilia can be found, including a city bus built by Fageol and used as a diner today. One of the family members, Lou Fageol, raced Unlimited hydroplanes. I believe the Fageols' were from Kent.
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Many of Guzzis double overhead cam singles were driven by bevel and shaft as well. My grandfather, Paul Ross Sr was a friend of Lou Fageols and stored some of the Slo MoShun hydro racers in his backyard in Kent back in the 50`s. He also helped with testing and towing them to races. Twin Coach Motors in Kent produced many Fageol busses. A couple of those `Slo-MoShuns` are on display in the Hydro Boat Museum in Kent, Washington.
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Many of Guzzis double overhead cam singles were driven by bevel and shaft as well. My grandfather, Paul Ross Sr was a friend of Lou Fageols and stored some of the Slo MoShun hydro racers in his backyard in Kent back in the 50`s. He also helped with testing and towing them to races. Twin Coach Motors in Kent produced many Fageol busses. A couple of those `Slo-MoShuns` are on display in the Hydro Boat Museum in Kent, Washington.
Interesting about your grandfather.
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This is a modern (formerly air cooled) Ducati engine modified by Ing. Mariani (the same of the "big bore" Guzzi engine) to function with bevels.
(http://th.motoblog.it/Asqkj6mxtNx3Jygp5PXgmwhRtq4=/fit-in/655x437/http://media.motoblog.it/p/pro/prototipo-motore-mariani-ducati-coppie-coniche/mariani_ducati_cgm_2009_02.jpg)
(http://media.motoblog.it/p/pro/prototipo-motore-mariani-ducati-coppie-coniche/mariani_ducati_cgm_2009_01.jpg)
A Guzzi engine can very weel function the same way, with the bevels in front of the cylinders and lateral intake and exhaust (imagine the side of the Ducati engine is the front of the Guzzi one).