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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Testarossa on January 13, 2018, 06:31:32 PM
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I'm in Altai, China, way out west near the Siberian-Mongolian-Kazakhstan borders. Big mountains, snow country. Here to visit folks who've had their own skiing culture for at least 5000 years and still make their own skis with horsehide climbing skins for hunting -- and fun. Won't bore you here with the skiing stuff but a lot of these people ride their motorcycles all winter long.
There's a lot of new cars and SUVs -- Fords, Subarus, Toyotas, Buicks and Cadillacs, most of the Euro brands and some Chinese marques we never see in North America. But still a lot of motos on the road for basic transport -- small engines and a lot of electric scooters and cargo-hauling trikes. Here's a guy coming home from skiing:
(http://thumb.ibb.co/m3WkZ6/rideronthesnow.jpg) (http://ibb.co/m3WkZ6)
free image hosting for websites (http://imgbb.com/)
At the local museum I spotted these leather horseman's leathers -- its ATTGAT, not battle armour. I bet you could sell this stuff through Harley dealers.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/jQ0eu6/ridingarmor.jpg) (http://ibb.co/jQ0eu6)
In town, huge amount of new construction, new roads. Neat traffic signals: instead of yellow lights you get a countdown clock showing how many seconds left until the light turns, either to red or to green. Seems to cut down on impatience and trying to beat the light. More later.
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Looks like the pix may not have posted. Will upload when I get home to normal internet.
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Thanks for the report, did you see any old machine tools, maybe a sewing machine? I'm interested in the junction of hand work to tools. Just out of curiosity . One of my sisters who is a medical doctor lived in China last year and is there now for a couple days. :popcorn:
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Thanks for that, Seth.. :thumb:
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THAT'S a part of the world most of us never see or know anything about ... Thanks for the post and pictures ....
Lannis
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I just bought a pair of Altai Hoks. If you are skiing there please post your impressions. Here in MN we are still waiting for snow.
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I just bought a pair of Altai Hoks. If you are skiing there please post your impressions. Here in MN we are still waiting for snow.
huh? All the slopes around here have been making snow for weeks.
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No homemade snow in western MN. We have to rely on nature.
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Jealous!
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More China pix:
Traffic light timer: count down to the green light. Around the corner, countdown to red.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/d4KEBm/China_Traffic_Timer.jpg) (http://ibb.co/d4KEBm)
Electric delivery trike, equipped for winter:
(http://thumb.ibb.co/fd9Lj6/Buqin_Trike_Colorful.jpg) (http://ibb.co/fd9Lj6)
The deluxe model:
(http://thumb.ibb.co/h8ExWm/Weatherproof_Trike.jpg) (http://ibb.co/h8ExWm)
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I have spent a lot of time in Mexico working. Ther, they have a count down timer on the yellow caution light, anouncing the change from green to red. Makes a lot of sense and very effective. Plus many busy intersections have a police officer standing with a camera and a ticket will arrive in the mail for failure to obey
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They have that red to green countdown thing in India too. Too bad nobody follows any type of rules of the road. Over here it would be a nice feature though. Maybe we could do them like NHRA timing lights.
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Maybe we could do them like NHRA timing lights.
Wouldn't work. Around here you'd T bone one of the 3 cars running the red.
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Our pedestrian cross walks in Eugene, Oregon, now countdown to red so walkers can decide to run across or not.
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Does Italy still have the NHRA Christmas tree lights as traffic signals? I like that set-up for launching it when the light turns green. :grin:
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I like the idea of how many seconds left before the light changes because some times I forgot to do something and need to pull over to do it. If I knew I had X seconds left before having to move I could do it then possibly instead. :smiley:
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Thanks, that's info on what's going on over their.
Count down clocks are a good idea I think. We have had them on pedestrian crossings around Chicago for years, but not yet integrated to vehicular traffic.
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Hows the standard of driving now, when I was over there it was quite common to meet a vehicle going the other way around a round about.
There used to be lots of single cylinder diesel 3 wheel trucks but last time I was there they had mostly disappeared.
Thousands of electric bikes and trikes all going at the same speed, must be governed I think.
I think the limit on m/c engine size was 125 or 150 cc but Chang Jiangs were exempt because they were sidecars.
I asked a tour guide what it took to get a drivers licence, he was a Latino there to learn the language, he told me you have to speak fluent Chinese to sit the test, here they would cry discrimination if they had to learn English or French.
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The standard of driving isn't bad, at least out here in the wild west. Cops and speed cameras everywhere which clearly helps. Some of the highway traffic moves slowly -- newish drivers I suppose but they're at least predictable. Even out on the open highway you pass speed cameras about every twenty kilometers. They won't rent cars to foreigners -- they really don't want you wandering around the country unsupervised. You can hire a car and driver really cheap -- We did a 300 mile trip in a brand new SUV for about $80 which seems ridiculous. Driver very smooth and competent on snowpacked roads and blowing snow. It's open range -- so road hazards include a lot of shaggy cattle and horses ambling across the road. At 3pm school lets out and the kids trot across the highway in small herds, unsupervised. This is central Asia and you spot dromedaries (Bactrian camels?) with two humps, just out in the fields.
I haven't seen any bikes over maybe 250cc -- maybe they're smaller. Haven't seen any small diesel trucks. Lots of huge heavy cross country rigs but that may be because we're out here in the equivalent of Montana, if Montana had Buddhist temples. Some subtle signs of how far the country has come: Everyone has a smart phone, and no matter where you go, there's a couple of cell towers on the horizon. Around villages and even out in the country, dogs large and small roam around loose and they all look well fed and happy, with collars, well socialized. Sometimes they congregate at village center, just hanging out together. I guess there was a time they were considered potential food.
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Dogs and cats are still considered protein sources. :tongue:
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Dogs and cats are still considered protein sources. :tongue:
Along with insects live and fried, sea slugs, chicken feet, anything to gross out a Westerner you can expect at one of their banquets, Donkey was very popular, they considered it food fit for royalty at the plant I was at.
It's quite sad to see how the tobacco giants are making inroads over there.
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It's quite sad to see how the tobacco giants are making inroads over there.
For a long time, China has outproduced the next 20 tobacco-growing countries COMBINED. They produce 10 times what the United States produces annually.
So it's not like the evil westerners are forcing the weed on the unsuspecting Chinese. They've been in the business of supplying their own people for a long time with the stuff.
On the other hand, we've been growing tobacco for 400 years here, and if you've ever compared Chinese or Indian tobacco to American, you'd know why Virginia and Carolina tobacco has almost passed as currency in the rest of the world for many years ....
Lannis
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Our pedestrian cross walks in Eugene, Oregon, now countdown to red so walkers can decide to run across or not.
In So. Cal we have a good number of the crosswalk signs showing how long you have to get across.
In a funny note. I was watching a show that had a monk in his robes, all of a sudden a cell phone starts ringing. It was the monks phone and he reached through the arm hole of his robe to get the phone turned off and apologized to the interviewer. Thought it was funny. You wouldn't think a monk would have a cell phone.
Tom
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48 hours to get home, including 30 hours in the air. Sheesh.
One more photo. Typical mountain village transport. This looks like maybe 200cc? Note the owner mods: battery packed in fiberglass insulation, felt blanket over the tank and saddle. Brand name in Chinese stamped on the points cover and starter motor.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/mDMhuG/Insulated_Battery.jpg) (http://ibb.co/mDMhuG)
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48 hours to get home, including 30 hours in the air. Sheesh.
One more photo. Typical mountain village transport. This looks like maybe 200cc? Note the owner mods: battery packed in fiberglass insulation, felt blanket over the tank and saddle. Brand name in Chinese stamped on the points cover and starter motor.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/mDMhuG/Insulated_Battery.jpg) (http://ibb.co/mDMhuG)
it says 钱江 (Qian Jiang)
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Thanks, Phang!
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48 hours to get home, including 30 hours in the air. Sheesh.
In my grandfather's day (and I remember him well!) that 48 hours would have been 3 months. In HIS grandfather's time, you couldn't even have gotten there with much hope of success.
So 48 hours doesn't seem too bad ... I guess unless you're sitting on that plane ...
Lannis
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Thanks, Phang!
It is the old logo of the brand, I got to squint my eyes to read it
(http://img1.16pic.com/00/31/79/16pic_3179217_s.jpg)
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Testarossa,- thanks for posting this,- very interesting !
Not only the report on the present traffic, but also the old skiing culture of the region.You're saying that they`ve had it for at least 5000 years, but isn't there a consensus about dating the famous cave painting found in the region to be at least 10k years old? - known to be the oldest sign of men skiing found, isn't it ?
Guess you went to see it while you were there ? Do you know if the painting has been carbon-dated yet ?
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/19/sports/skiing/skiing-china-cave-paintings.html
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Testarossa,- thanks for posting this,- very interesting !
Not only the report on the present traffic, but also the old skiing culture of the region.You're saying that they`ve had it for at least 5000 years, but isn't there a consensus about dating the famous cave painting found in the region to be at least 10k years old? - known to be the oldest sign of men skiing found, isn't it ?
Guess you went to see it while you were there ? Do you know if the painting has been carbon-dated yet ?
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/19/sports/skiing/skiing-china-cave-paintings.html
Thanks for that.. :thumb:
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Cool history and anthropology. :thumb: Glad I didn't have to fly! :evil:
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Kidneb: I saw that NYT story too, and it overstates the case a bit. Rock art is very hard to carbon-date because the pigments are typically mineral (ochre=iron oxide) rather than organic. An international team published a paper in 2016 dating the art to 4600 years old, plus or minus about 600. This isn't older than some of the skis found in bogs in Fennoscandinavia. See
https://skiinghistory.org/news/origin-story-where-did-skiing-begin
And yes, I did see the rock art in question. There are hundreds of petroglyph sites across central Asia. I sat through two days of academic presentations by archaeologists from Norway, Russia, China and Mongolia. The 10,000-year age is speculative and based on the assumption that this region was clear of glacial ice by that time. The area is desert and never was covered by continental glaciation, but it was buried under local Altai Mountain glaciers. There's evidence of human habitation in unglaciated northern Russian 40,000 years ago.
In other parts of the world rock art age is estimated by carbon dating other material found in the cave, or by geological evidence of glacial or sea shore level at the site.
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Thanks for your educating answer Testarossa,- and the article was an interesting read. I was born in Norway and grew up there with skies on my feet, and thus bear some interest to the subject.
I just read a Norwegian article on the history of skiing, and it mentions the 8000 years old ski artefact found in Vis in North Russia. In Norway the oldest ski artefact found is about 5000 years old, but there are older findings both in Sweden and Finland. As the ice withdrew from the coast, there were two major migration waves into what is now known as Norway about 10500 to 11500 years ago, one coming up from south, and a later one from east, entering the north,- and why shouldn't they have brought their skiing technology with them?
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As the ice withdrew from the coast, there were two major migration waves into what is now known as Norway about 10500 to 11500 years ago, one coming up from south, and a later one from east, entering the north,- and why shouldn't they have brought their skiing technology with them?
That's exactly right. It's assumed that the tribes followed the elk and reindeer herds northwestward and northeastward from central Asia, on skis all the way because the most efficient way to hunt big game is to catch up to them when they're postholed in the snow. One mystery: why didn't skis cross the Bering Strait into North America? Why don't the Inuit have them?
Go to youtube and search altay ski. Lots of cool video.
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One mystery: why didn't skis cross the Bering Strait into North America? Why don't the Inuit have them?
Never thought about it, but could it just be due to lack of proper wood to make them? The skis didn't follow nor did the horse, but one should think that sealskin would do the job as well as horsehide ?
Anyway,- thanks for the youtube tip, and hope you've recovered from the long flight home.
Some Norwegian Sami people here, from the beginning of the 20th century. They`ve had a tough time then for some centuries:
(http://thumb.ibb.co/f5Fsww/Nordic_Sami_people_Lavvu_1900_1920.jpg) (http://ibb.co/f5Fsww)
edit,- Hmm, did a read up on man riding horse, and I learned that the oldest documented proof of men riding horses in central Asia is "only" 4000 years old, so --- :rolleyes:
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One mystery: why didn't skis cross the Bering Strait into North America? Why don't the Inuit have them?
I know one potential reason they don't have them. Because in the wintertime, it's hard enough keeping warm and dry and whole in normal conditions. If you add to that, however, the issues of continually falling on your arse while sliding down a hill, getting snow in every gap and orifice that the snow can find, and bruising yourself up so that you can barely lift a cup of hot chocolate (or whatever the Inuit drank around the fire) to your lips ....
.... then "not skiing" might make sense. And how do I know that .... ? :shocked:
Lannis
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^^^^^ I've been on skis once. About all I remember about it is trying to get back on them a lot. :smiley:
As for why the Inuit didn't have them? There's probably a reason they made igloos..
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Hard to browse and graze when you're sliding by. :grin: They did use the technology in their sled runners.