Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: mjptexas on February 06, 2018, 09:07:06 PM
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My 2014 Cali 1400 Custom just turned over 22,000 miles, and, I've noticed something interesting over the last month. Fuel consumption has improved by 2-3 mpg, and the bike seems to run smoother. So, does that mean that at about 20,000 miles it's finally broken in?
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Yes ... or you have finally learned how to do division :laugh:
Dusty
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Do they change your fuel formula in the winter?
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My own experience is that larger twin cylinder engines take somewhere on the far side of 15,000 miles to finish breaking in. My DL1000 V-Strom hit its stride at about 18,000, my Norge finally got to its best at about 20,000, the Stelvio I bought used continued to improve to about that same number. Part of it is other things, like getting valve clearances and throttle body balancing just right, but these large twins just seem to take a while to reach their happy place.
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My Vintage got noticeably smoother at 15k...and smoother still with a reflashed ECU.
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Yes, even on the big block carbed Guzzis it took at least 15K miles before the motor finally felt like it's broken in. :grin:
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Yep, 20K miles give or take.
John Henry
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I've had three CARC Guzzis and after 15,000 miles they just got that bit sweeter.
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Yes ... or you have finally learned how to do division :laugh:
Dusty
Or perhaps I finally figured out how to use the calculator on my phone :cool:
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Do they change your fuel formula in the winter?
No clue. I live in Central Texas, so winter runs from Christmas, maybe through Valentine’s Day. Would hardly seem worth the effort.
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Or perhaps I finally figured out how to use the calculator on my phone :cool:
Good , now would you teach me :rolleyes: :laugh:
Dusty
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I bought my '89 LeMans V with something like 6000 miles on the odometer in 1995. It had a lot of minor silly things wrong with it, courtesy the previous owner, but in sorting those out it was obviously a good, solid bike that hadn't been hurt at all. It didn't feel like it was fully broken in, particularly the transmission, until it turned over 15,000 miles.
My new V7III Racer was purchased in October. I had the first service done just a hair early (about 790 miles) due to travel commitments, logistics, and all that stuff. It still felt tight. About fifteen hundred miles later, the engine's tight feel disappeared over the course of about 30-40 miles and it sounded better and revs more easily; fuel mileage is up. The transmission--good from the start, really--continues to smooth out and shift better and better as the miles add up. At 1450 miles or so now, it's beginning to feel like the LeMans V transmission felt, so I look forward to another watershed in transmission smoothness up around the 12000-15000 mark.
Moto Guzzis are in it for the long haul.. :D
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My G5 had about 77,000 and change when I sold it. I don't think it was fully broke in.
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I know this is long repeated Guzzi canon - but I still am skeptical to some extent.
I don't recall either of my big blocks changing that dramatically by 10k or 15k, I just don't.
And I generally don't believe break-in works that way, I mean jeez how much metal or swarf or whatever has to be worn away in 10k miles to achieve changes like that to the motor and chassis.
I WILL ADMIT though that the V7 felt particularly strangled/choked for the first maybe couple of thousand miles. That did break-in more then, but a difference between say 5k and 10k - nahhhhhhhh.
I think it's more likely what changed was human and perception oriented.
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Yes, Kev...it does seem like a great many miles. I don't think that it is any one thing, but the whole bike felt smoother after 15K. In particular, shifting was better. I suppose bedding surfaces tighten up, bolts stretch (rocker arms get re-torqued every valve adjustment), and small gaps seal up. Plus, air-cooled motors require looser tolerances than liquid cooled ones due to heat expansion. They start out with a pretty tight fit, but find their happy place as the miles pile on. All that passive fitting takes time...
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Yes, Kev...it does seem like a great many miles. I don't think that it is any one thing, but the whole bike felt smoother after 15K. In particular, shifting was better. I suppose bedding surfaces tighten up, bolts stretch (rocker arms get re-torqued every valve adjustment), and small gaps seal up. Plus, air-cooled motors require looser tolerances than liquid cooled ones due to heat expansion. They start out with a pretty tight fit, but find their happy place as the miles pile on. All that passive fitting takes time...
Well, not for nothing, but looser tolerances should mean it takes less time because there's less to wear no?
I'll remain skeptical. I just haven't felt THAT big a difference after 10k or 15k (as opposed to say 1-2k) on anything I bought new from BMW and Harley to Guzzi.
I DO think there is a little wear in on things like the tranmission/shifter pawls, any suspension bearings or bushings, and sure some internal components in the motor. But by 10k.... man it should have happened already, it REALLY should have.
But I'll likely remain alone in this... that's fine.
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I think it really depends on the engine, not the brand. High tech, high compression engines like the V4 on my ST1300 were butter smooth to begin with and never really changed. The big bore thumpers like the KLR's I've owned or the DR I now have most definatly loosened up over the first 5 or 10 thousand miles.
On a simple, low stressed air-cooled engine like the V7 I expect things will bead in much like my Bonnie did,
somewhere after 10K. On larger, higher performance engines in the line that might take a bit more. Guzzi's from what I can tell are old school metal, they like to ease I to things over time.
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I own a 8.1 liter V8 powered Chevy 3/4 ton 4wd Suburban bought new in 2001. Think about it, each cylinder over a liter in displacement. I swear the engine was still tight at 50,000 miles and took until 60/70K miles to feel bedded in and more free revving. While that Suburban has never been "fast" (I think it takes a bit to get all those big pistons moving), it has a ton of torque and it takes a pretty decent trailer to be noticed even on steep hills.
Go over to BMW boxer forums. Many folks will not switch to synthetic oil until around 12K miles for fear of not having the rings set properly. :grin:
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When I bought my Centuaro GT a few years ago, it had 6,500 original miles on it. I did all the upgrades / fixes, and now it has 11,500 miles on it. No noticeable difference, from my perspective, in engine performance / smoothness.
When I bought my three new Big Twin Harley's, 1 FLH-S / 2 Road King's, I recall the engines did seem to run a bit "smoother" after 5,000 miles...but I think 10K-15K might be a bit of a s stretch, (IMHO), but then again, I tend to be a relatively "conservative" rider and rarely FLOG my bikes... :cool:
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I think Kev makes a good point regarding our perceptions changing gradually and believing our own BS a bit..
However a friend of mine whom I hold in high regard for mechanical intuition had a long break from riding my bike.
Between about 40,000 and 50,000 he had not been on it and one day we've headed off for a ride. He owns a perfect R 1100 S and he stopped down the road and we swapped.
At the next stop he got the first word in (for once) and said, " what have you done to this thing, it feels like silk".
I'd thought it had become noticeably sweeter but dismissed it as imagination, but there probably was a change around then.
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Well, not for nothing, but looser tolerances should mean it takes less time because there's less to wear no?
I'll remain skeptical. I just haven't felt THAT big a difference after 10k or 15k (as opposed to say 1-2k) on anything I bought new from BMW and Harley to Guzzi.
I DO think there is a little wear in on things like the tranmission/shifter pawls, any suspension bearings or bushings, and sure some internal components in the motor. But by 10k.... man it should have happened already, it REALLY should have.
But I'll likely remain alone in this... that's fine.
No one's alone here Kev.
I'm certain the gearbox in my Norge is getting better all the time, it shifts beautifully.
Like my Suzuki Bandit.
What do you think of the reasoning that says..
"If it's slow to wear in, it's slow to wear out".
PS. Thanks for the PM.
You're OK :bow: :thumb:
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I think Kev makes a good point regarding our perceptions changing gradually and believing our own BS a bit..
However a friend of mine whom I hold in high regard for mechanical intuition had a long break from riding my bike.
Between about 40,000 and 50,000 he had not been on it and one day we've headed off for a ride. He owns a perfect R 1100 S and he stopped down the road and we swapped.
At the next stop he got the first word in (for once) and said, " what have you done to this thing, it feels like silk".
I'd thought it had become noticeably sweeter but dismissed it as imagination, but there probably was a change around then.
Couldn't that just be balance? Were the TB's balanced in that time between rides?
Unless he's specifically talking about the shifter, but really, how the hell would he remember after any length of time?
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No one's alone here Kev.
I'm certain the gearbox in my Norge is getting better all the time, it shifts beautifully.
Like my Suzuki Bandit.
What do you think of the reasoning that says..
"If it's slow to wear in, it's slow to wear out".
PS. Thanks for the PM.
You're OK [emoji144] :thumb:
I dunno, jury is out in my mind. There are a lot of things we want to believe, but then learn they don't make sense. I'm not sure if the engineering that would support it, unless we're literally suggesting that say compression rings take 10k to wear in and another 100-200k to wear out. That doesn't makes sense to me. But I've been wrong before and will be again.
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I tend to agree with you, kev. My V7 was noticeably smoother at 7.5K than when new.
I absolutely could NOT run 5th below 3800 rpm under any reasonable riding conditions. (I could downhill for all you wiswguys!) Now, 3800 is ok but the bike prefers 4000 and above whereas when new it was 4200-4300 as the floor. I kept notes!
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Couldn't that just be balance? Were the TB's balanced in that time between rides?
Unless he's specifically talking about the shifter, but really, how the hell would he remember after any length of time?
My GSA (1200 boxer) will run like silk one day and have some vibes another. Those days it runs like silk are great. It is noticeable. Could be gas, temp, air pressure, humidity, who knows, but there are those perfect days.
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My GSA (1200 boxer) will run like silk one day and have some vibes another. Those days it runs like silk are great. It is noticeable. Could be gas, temp, air pressure, humidity, who knows, but there are those perfect days.
Good point! [emoji106]
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I noticed my '14 Accord VTEC started to rev freer at about 20k miles. It's a stick and the wife's main car, I drive it on occasion. It seems to rev quicker and easier now.
..................a nd this has nothing to do with price of tea in china :lipsrsealed:
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Couldn't that just be balance? Were the TB's balanced in that time between rides?
Unless he's specifically talking about the shifter, but really, how the hell would he remember after any length of time?
Don't think I mentioned the time.
Was a pretty big trip between those two readings.
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Couldn't that just be balance? Were the TB's balanced in that time between rides?
Unless he's specifically talking about the shifter, but really, how the hell would he remember after any length of time?
Pete did the Beetle map and TB's at around 92,000 from memory.
That REALLY made a difference...
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I dunno, jury is out in my mind. There are a lot of things we want to believe, but then learn they don't make sense. I'm not sure if the engineering that would support it, unless we're literally suggesting that say compression rings take 10k to wear in and another 100-200k to wear out. That doesn't makes sense to me. But I've been wrong before and will be again.
This.
The vast majority of the 'Bedding in' is perceptual. On later bikes there are a lot more 2RS bearings in the gearbox, (And a couple in the engine.) and seal drag may be a minor contributor but this idea that modern 'air cooled' engines, especially those with Nicasil bores, (ie. most of them.) run looser tolerances is fanciful.
Especially with plain bearings the tolerances remain stuck at the 'rule of thumb' they have had for most of the last two centuries, one thou clearance for every inch of journal diameter, (Within reason.). They either work or they don't. Frictional losses in plain bearings won't change as its due to the viscous drag imparted by the wedge.
Sure they will feel 'Tighter' but most likely most of that is the owner believing what he's been told and the fact that the controls are new and may have higher friction levels promoting a feeling of 'Tightness'.
Not that any of this matters a toss. Just get on and ride the bloody thing! If it feels it's 'loosening up'? Great! If it feels no different? Also great! If it melts into a pool of molten slag? Not so great! :evil:
Pete
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I have a hard time believing any modern engine, air cooled or otherwise, requires thousands and thousands of miles to break in. That being said, I've only bought one Guzzi brand new. My 1200 Sport used quite a bit of oil when I first bought it(new). I babied it during break in and changed the oil three times in the first 2,000 miles. It went through almost a quart of oil every thousand miles during the first 3,000 miles. It wasn't overfilled and blowing out the breather tube. The level was correct. It continued until I rode to the Vintage Days at Barber Motorsport. On the way down my friend and I ended up racing(he was on his ZRX1100) from Knoxville to Birmingham. We made it in a hair over 3 hours. I don't know if my engine ate oil because the ring gaps were aligned or if the rings hadn't been forced out against the cylinder walls because I had been so gentle during break in but holding the engine basically WFO for 260 miles seemed to do the trick. I topped it off in Birmingham and it never used a drop of oil after that.
I wouldn't get on a brand new motorcycle and just flog the hell out of it but I do think there is merit to generating pressure in the engine by increasing the throttle opening going up hills and accelerating briskly during break in. Gradually increasing the loading in an engine to bed it in makes sense(to me) and I don't think that takes 20k miles. More like 1-2,000.
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Ride it *Normally* for the first couple of hundred miles and then cane it like a bastard child.
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There is no break in on modern auto engines...The rings are seated before the new owner sits behind the wheel. the bearing clearances remain the same for years of use....
Are new Guzzi's machined to a few ten thousands of an inch tolerances?
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Well yes, of course they are, where it counts.
Pete
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Well yes, of course they are, where it counts.
Pete
And after let's say 30,000 miles,with proper maintenance, the crank and bearings generally show no wear?
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Being a returning Guzzi type I'm not too familiar w/Guzzi/Piaggio programing. I do know @approx 25k Mi. BMW fuel maps change . I've had two factory trained techs explain that @about that milage a couple things happen . first they(BMW) figure it hasn't blown up ,so it was probably was assembled OK,and can take a bit more fuel & timing advance . most importantly its considered a "used " vehicle & is subject to slightly lower emission regs. By tuv. I wouldn't be surprised if Piaggio doesn't do similar.Those engineering types can be quite clever when not restrained by bean counters !
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And after let's say 30,000 miles,with proper maintenance, the crank and bearings generally show no wear?
That of course depends on numerous factors but as long as it has been well maintained and hasn't had endless stop/start cycles wear will be minimal. It's the bearings moving in relation to the journal on which they run with no oil supply at start up that promotes wear. As long as there is oil flowing bearing and journal shouldn't ever touch and therefore wear will not occur.
Pete
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Being a returning Guzzi type I'm not too familiar w/Guzzi/Piaggio programing. I do know @approx 25k Mi. BMW fuel maps change . I've had two factory trained techs explain that @about that milage a couple things happen . first they(BMW) figure it hasn't blown up ,so it was probably was assembled OK,and can take a bit more fuel & timing advance . most importantly its considered a "used " vehicle & is subject to slightly lower emission regs. By tuv. I wouldn't be surprised if Piaggio doesn't do similar.Those engineering types can be quite clever when not restrained by bean counters !
The US only requires motorcycle manufacturer's to insure that their bikes pass EPA emissions for 18,600 miles. After that it's unregulated. Most states don't require motorcycles to be tested during annual inspections like they do cars. If they did there wouldn't be many Harley's on the road.
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A few years after retirement I tossed all my records for miles driven on everything (except motorcycles I've owned), for nearly 70 years. While not as succinct as Pete Roper, my bromide is: Keep them wound up and change the oil. Total miles were 8.3 million, most with big trucks/buses in North America and Europe. I've had a few flats, run out of fuel 2X, almost smoked a clutch climbing a hill I had no business being on.
Bromide #II: If you want to be anywhere, on time and return home when expected, with clean hands and clothing, ride/drive Japanese. - Ducking & Running.
A long time friend, concert pianist, truck driver, asked me to drive his GMC 920 (turbo & supercharged 6 cylinder 2 stroke diesel, grossing close to 80K #. He had a noise he could not identify.
I couldn't hear it after several hundred miles. Turned out to be a lost, or never installed, wrist pin circlip.
BTW: I acquired my first vehicle with an automatic transmission 8 months ago. The dog out grew my coupe. YMWV. R3~
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Around a 100K they start to run real good.
Tex
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A two stroke runs the best it ever has right before it seizes up. :smiley:
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A few years after retirement I tossed all my records for miles driven on everything (except motorcycles I've owned), for nearly 70 years. While not as succinct as Pete Roper, my bromide is: Keep them wound up and change the oil. Total miles were 8.3 million,
Well you would have picked up a few tricks.
500 ish km a day for EVERY day of your life from the age of 20 to 90 !
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“Breaking in” the rider to a new bike is a significant element in the rider’s perception of how the bike is performing. And some bikes take longer for the rider to feel competent and comfortable. Case in point: I found my first generation Kawasaki Concours top heavy and intimidating...it took me a couple of years before I felt truly at home on the machine. In striking contrast, I was immediately comfortable on my BMW K75 S.
Every motorcycle has a learning curve; “breaking in” the rider to the bike certainly colors the rider’s opinion of the bike’s performance.
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I bought my SP II new in 1990. After around 15,000 miles it took less time to warm up and was much less finicky. Since then it's been easy as hell to deal with and it has almost 80,000 miles on it now. Even the dealer I bought it from noticed that.
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Mechanicsavant:
That is fascinating information about possible changes in ECU programming. Had not thought of that one.
Personally, I believe they do get smoother and slicker after a while. Transmission and engine felt noticeably better on my small block after 15,000 to 20,000 miles. I do not think it is psychological, at least not totally.
My analogy would be to old Smith & Wesson carbon steel revolvers. If you find one that has been shot a LOT, but not abused, the action and feel is noticeably smoother than a less used revolver. I suspect that has to do with mating of parts at a level that would be hard to measure short of electron microscopy. But maybe that analogy does not apply to engines.