Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Old Jock on February 07, 2018, 04:24:58 AM
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So right now I'm in the process of tearing down the front of the engine to get into the timing case to replace the oil pump & gear mod from Joe Caruso.
It's going Ok so far no special tools used lined up the engine to the marks and used a rattle gun to undo the bolts on the pulleys and everything has stayed in place, although it is a bit scary how easy the cams can turn with the belts off.
However I was bit shocked when removing the belts, I could get the forward belt off no problem but to remove the rear belt I had to pull the crank pulleys first, once they were off I took off the belt.
Is this normal, surely even Guzzi didn't intend that you need to remove the crank pulleys to replace a belt?
Or did they?
Wondering about removing some metal on base of the casing at the pulley to see if that would help.
Anybody have a magic fix?
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/HgZz6AFKYvPM3xg3KHEzOJjlFjDrROAqDOV61bIfsfppNyQVMCITj9oInen3wMOT5gG0IMlIJJ96GodriJe8n9TcfLYEgq35yDeP8tgHdvblD7cRHoCz2duwsgIcd63oHH7JvvEq2hbSNnjC8KGA7UvvqYSureBRhnWTrPNbSIu290OZyZtl2zYWuImA0kkWsapWE9tS2DMUNbJAS-A_f05qrho-Sa8aY3eAdurviks-kp_bZ84bohm2aXJsF-NAqlmty2ShiXZ8JVbrqam3Bp7HByKvZbH5sus_HBNxAXONWZrvtGXvIiCjLcks4QS05Gs6iIcn9dHBH83Hh8YIedpvTW7JDEP3K4oIZu9r_GEaHabKZzpkz0rNB4p15ZcQS9TsxgAJB53LUgZhwPGsmLlAVEdU7pXbHfMi7mAaemV4yjvzkCyHoeZ6w-5bgSN-zr3z9kB3rIFI59eYS1gfcdEXxaFM7AcgqRrGpkbrXUlPhhQc6ZYnyenziAMHbNjD8m6MyVJ-VYHqZO8ar4QUWxNZjaWD6n-33N-ALIjCNjIOoDMTmRtjpUbngATLyI3I5yLoLNUjo8qr_qW0KogyhSHuOtIAQZCRML8GRPuQYxQTHA0-l9qSQ0m2qiATiByxBQG9O6pnGBER5YcEsjUlEU4f4TnGYpGc=w657-h986-no)
John
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Wondering about removing some metal on base of the casing at the pulley to see if that would help.
That's the quick and dirty method of changing out the belts.
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That's the way they all are. Removing the pulley isn't hard, though. The threaded holes in the pulley are for a puller.
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Here's a couple suggestions on the oil pump replacement:
(1) use the shorter bolts that come with the pump. DO NOT use the old bolts, which are too long for the Caruso pump and will foul the crankshaft.
(2) pack the pump with light assembly grease before you bolt it up. Because of the way oil flows through the filter assembly on this motor, it isn't possible to prime the pump by putting oil down the rocker oil lines. If you put it together dry, it may not have enough suction to draw.
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“Wondering about removing some metal on base of the casing at the pulley to see if that would help.”
That is how I removed mine, and it was a fairly quick solution.
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Ok thank you all for the answers & dxhall thanks for the extra tips on the grease and fasteners.
I got some tips from Joe and put them into a powerpoint show and alternately a pdf.
If anybody wants it drop me a PM
As I'm going along I'm taking the odd photo here and there in order to document how I went about it, so far it's been straightforward but a lot of work in my opinion, just to get to the belts.
See here for the pics, but that's all they are and I'm not very far into it, as this is all virgin ground for me.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/GsGblVvTeJhPL68G3 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/GsGblVvTeJhPL68G3)
I agree removing the pulley is not difficult but I think it is pretty sloppy engineering on Guzzi's part that it forms a part of the procedure, you don't need to do that on a Ducati.
Guzzi could have come up with either a different pulley design or modified the casings in order that the belts would slide off.
Given that the nut and pulley are on the crank, it really is something I'd rather not be taking on and off regularly, one slip with that nut and you're in BIG trouble, plus the wear and tear on the threads.
Perhaps I'm an old woman but the thought of having to consistently undo a nut whose threads are on the crank as a regular maintenance item is an appallingly bad piece of design.
John
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Perhaps I'm an old woman but the thought of having to consistently undo a nut whose threads are on the crank as a regular maintenance item is an appallingly bad piece of design.
You have to remember that this was a race engine, designed in the heat of battle. It is *not* your typical run forever Guzzi engine. The 4V was done as an add on as expeditiously as possible. On the original Daytonas, even the u joint/ drive shaft was throw away.
You only have to change the belts every 18000 miles or so. In the typical life of an engine, that isn't very many times.
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(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/s07JiAdbUrtSZ13HmaXXf5QJvdJ4MPG5-0BQlhm8T-kgdiQ2vPTV_iQL0gd8ldVvgh2NE2Ku7DzbVvbQX10Gm1g57R-HMRRCEUEJ5QVGsPARA2ixJcvUieWToKCdjamQtSbAffjFvm6WGP7j8oVdKmcEBBiPIYnt7lFdGSk3ejyPyobVtUvVQzaNELVmQ6P5M713doN1fEJ0PTFUkYZ2SrI1mzFxW_fJJwlQd13lB2zn8zVsXcM7zlK6Jc5GNspevjwEeCAkQ9cLZU0V0A6L2MtWRrkbcB5KT-jPVrz7RnBD98yUAjvKsuZ-wBeg3vjIcWHki2HncSB8lt0t0ENjlo1iM8pyfvk1_JIT_znxzXYh8_vHsAReR0kFO6gYehouucY_-hCE9FnYnL5GnTqyKsarYNeyHJk2_kY6TFW3nHyXrzk0odRBLJz-XPaDA8t6LPx9jAiMEt_9YE5CebMNP8EHpeMKxjx9HiJOgMJU_0IeDcIhgzwisxNEq3zkKhkI4VMXBS2SiiMIiXNCiRNJ6Osp8LldlaumVliPQPRkRwWJfanTyZWvHFwG6g3J9ihsjY5K0TRhRufYlcLpEaxNGsVhMj_ZmOeAvrOctl-cFG8BBlwHSPoKOx9LYj7d6U8VRIcFOGWbPqU04vUImcdml-jMcYrCGVWx=w832-h1248-no)
If you don't move the cam locations from this point, can you just remove the cover, replace the pump and put everything back together?
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Theoretically, yes. What will happen, though, is the cams will move when you are doing all this. No big deal, really.
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I'll soon be putting the steel gears in my bike, John, so I'll follow your thread with interest!
Regarding the belts: I changed them on mine as soon as I bought it, and I know for sure I didn't have to remove the pulley. So far as I can remember, the casing was intact beneath it too. Odd! (..or maybe I just didn't notice it had been ground back to give extra clearance?) I suppose I'll find out for sure when I open it back up.
Steve
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I'll soon be putting the steel gears in my bike, John, so I'll follow your thread with interest!
Regarding the belts: I changed them on mine as soon as I bought it, and I know for sure I didn't have to remove the pulley. So far as I can remember, the casing was intact beneath it too. Odd! (..or maybe I just didn't notice it had been ground back to give extra clearance?) I suppose I'll find out for sure when I open it back up.
Steve
The castings aren't exactly the same. Surprise surprise. :smiley: On some, you can cave man the belt off without clearancing the casting. If you have the tools, taking the pulleys off is a walk in the park.
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Thanks Steve, Don't know how much metal you would need to remove, I'm reluctant to take a grinder to the casings as it does not look like there is a lot of metal there
My bad it's not driven off the crank of course but off a stub shaft above driven by a gear wheel at 1/2 crank speed
Unless I was doing something really stupid I could not see any way to get the inner belt to clear the shoulders to get it free
My plan is just to go in now remove the cover and then do the mods. If the cams do move I suppose I'll have to get into trying to re-time it all as I don't see a way of locking the cams
From the picture though you can see the shaft positions so I hope I won't have to get involved with setting the whole valve timing up again, I'll also try to match mark the shafts to the timing case too, just a belt & braces
A friend has just done this a few months back and did not report any problems.
Chuck if you have any advice I'm all ears
John
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(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/s07JiAdbUrtSZ13HmaXXf5QJvdJ4MPG5-0BQlhm8T-kgdiQ2vPTV_iQL0gd8ldVvgh2NE2Ku7DzbVvbQX10Gm1g57R-HMRRCEUEJ5QVGsPARA2ixJcvUieWToKCdjamQtSbAffjFvm6WGP7j8oVdKmcEBBiPIYnt7lFdGSk3ejyPyobVtUvVQzaNELVmQ6P5M713doN1fEJ0PTFUkYZ2SrI1mzFxW_fJJwlQd13lB2zn8zVsXcM7zlK6Jc5GNspevjwEeCAkQ9cLZU0V0A6L2MtWRrkbcB5KT-jPVrz7RnBD98yUAjvKsuZ-wBeg3vjIcWHki2HncSB8lt0t0ENjlo1iM8pyfvk1_JIT_znxzXYh8_vHsAReR0kFO6gYehouucY_-hCE9FnYnL5GnTqyKsarYNeyHJk2_kY6TFW3nHyXrzk0odRBLJz-XPaDA8t6LPx9jAiMEt_9YE5CebMNP8EHpeMKxjx9HiJOgMJU_0IeDcIhgzwisxNEq3zkKhkI4VMXBS2SiiMIiXNCiRNJ6Osp8LldlaumVliPQPRkRwWJfanTyZWvHFwG6g3J9ihsjY5K0TRhRufYlcLpEaxNGsVhMj_ZmOeAvrOctl-cFG8BBlwHSPoKOx9LYj7d6U8VRIcFOGWbPqU04vUImcdml-jMcYrCGVWx=w832-h1248-no)
If you don't move the cam locations from this point, can you just remove the cover, replace the pump and put everything back together?
Doesn't the upper bit of the cam belt housing stay in place around the camshaft?
I don't remember needing to pull the pulley off of the camshaft. But then, it was ten years ago.
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Really, as long as you have the left cylinder at TDC ready to fire, you can take the pulley off, etc. As long as the mark lines up with the tit on the casting when at TDC, you can put the belt on, and you're good.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4244/34994014500_09cac3707e_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VjitkA)IMG_5457 (https://flic.kr/p/VjitkA) by Charles Stottlemyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/107188298@N06/), on Flickr
Same deal on the D side. The cam will line up with the tit on the casting.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4280/34570980853_df368d1a7a_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/UEVjb2)IMG_5456 (https://flic.kr/p/UEVjb2) by Charles Stottlemyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/107188298@N06/), on Flickr
The sequence is TDC ready to fire on the S cylinder, change the belts, stretch the S belt. Rotate 270 degrees so the D cylinder is TDC ready to fire, stretch the D belt.
Note that there is a vernier for fine adjustment of each cam pulley. Pay attention when you take the pulleys off. :smiley: Probably you don't want to mess with it if the engine has been running ok. The beauty is you "can" change the cam timing with a degree wheel, if necessary.
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Just looked at the manual DOH!!!
Yes Wayne you're right you don't have to remove the top pulleys, wish you had told me earlier. Well that's certainly how it looks from the part book
The top parts of the casing can stay in place that way you don't have to remove the cam pulleys, that would have made life a little easier, Oh well even as it means I don't need to mess with anything up there from now on, so less chance of disturbing the shafts............. Thanks :bow:
Must pay more attention
Now goes away to see where he put the cam pulleys and put them back onto the shafts :embarrassed:
Chuck thanks for that, I certainly do not want to mess with the "Very Nears" that's the stuff nightmares are made of
John
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Hmmm.....if you don't have to remove those pully's on the cams then it seems like a fairly straight forward job provided you can lock those cams in place or am I missing something?
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I would say fairly straightforward BC, just a lot of crap to remove
As long as the cams and crank are lined up to the marks and when the belts are removed.
After that as long as the crank doesn't move you are fine, even if the cams move you can just rotate them back to the marks.
As I'm trying to take pictures I should be able to put something together as a guide.
Just another thing I'm guessing here but are the Verniers the internal gears on the cam pulleys? If so I'd match mark them with paint, obviously not necessary for this job but it's a good idea
John
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Hmmm.....if you don't have to remove those pully's on the cams then it seems like a fairly straight forward job provided you can lock those cams in place or am I missing something?
Good luck with doing that. There are springs involved, and things tend to move around when you are even taking the belts off.
Just another thing I'm guessing here but are the Verniers the internal gears on the cam pulleys?
Yes. Luigi didn't always get it perfect, btw. You can make them perfect with a degree wheel.
Sounds like you're on top of it now, John.. carry on. :smiley:
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It's not quite as simple as it first appears. The cause of potential grief is that, if you follow the instructions in the manual, the right-side cam is under valve spring pressure when you remove the belt from its pulley. When you bump the pulley as you put the new belt on, (you will), the valve spring pressure from the open valve will spin the cam.
If you've marked the pulleys, you can probably get it back where it was. You can't be sure you've got it right unless you do the drill with the degree wheel.
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Good luck with doing that. There are springs involved, and things tend to move around when you are even taking the belts off. Yes. Luigi didn't always get it perfect, btw. You can make them perfect with a degree wheel.
Sounds like you're on top of it now, John.. carry on. :smiley:
I'm not second guessing you on this as you clearly know more than myself, but I didn't have any problems with the running of my bike after I changed the belts. I just removed the belts, installed the new ones and made sure the pully's didn't move.
Luck?
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I'm not second guessing you on this as you clearly know more than myself, but I didn't have any problems with the running of my bike after I changed the belts. I just removed the belts, installed the new ones and made sure the pully's didn't move.
Luck?
Not at all.. as long as the pulleys didn't move, and obviously they didn't.
As dxhall said
When you bump the pulley as you put the new belt on, (you will), the valve spring pressure from the open valve will spin the cam.
And previously, I'd said..
Good luck with doing that. There are springs involved, and things tend to move around when you are even taking the belts off.
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I'm not second guessing you on this as you clearly know more than myself, but I didn't have any problems with the running of my bike after I changed the belts. I just removed the belts, installed the new ones and made sure the pully's didn't move.
Luck?
(Edited) No, skill. :thumb: Left out the comma. :grin:
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Maybe my motor has the Special Low Friction Cam Lobe option.
Seriously - part of the timing drill is to turn the cam counterclockwise until the exhaust valves open 1mm. Then, with the cam in that position, you install the vernier gear in the inner part of the outer pulley.
The cam on my motor would never stay at the 1mm-open position. When the dial indicator showed 1mm and I removed the tool which turns the cam (which you must do to install the vernier) the cam just spun backwards.
if your cam will stay in place at 1mm lift, you're livin' right. Buy some lotto tickets.
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Anybody got any idea where I can purchase a belt stretching tool?
Appears they are now manufactured from Unobtainium
John
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Anybody got any idea where I can purchase a belt stretching tool?
Appears they are now manufactured from Unobtainium
John
<scratching head> Didn't I send you a drawing?
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Sorry Chuck is it in that folder of tools
I'll take another look many thanks
John
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<scratching head> Didn't I send you a drawing?
Could I get a copy of that drawing. I either need to change the belts or sell the bike :)
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Thanks for this thread, John. You are beginning to convince me to hire a professional when Joe's package arrives. Not for the faint of heart.
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I vote sell the bike.
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'ey John, where did you buy your belts from and how much? It's been awhile since I last check on availability and price.
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Let us know if anyone in your area will take this job on. Tell them that, with the comprehensive shop manual, it will be a piece of cake.
From the manual:
With the engine without the rocker arms, fit a feeler
gauge on the left (Induction Control ducket) cylinder
discharge command points using the tool cod. 69
90 78 50 as indicated in the Fig. 11-47.
The upper timing command pulleys must be without
the inner drive gears as indicated in the Fig. 11-47.
The drive belts must be stretched correctly.
They'll spend half of the flat-rate time looking for the control ducket.
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Thanks for this thread, John. You are beginning to convince me to hire a professional when Joe's package arrives. Not for the faint of heart.
FWIW I paid about 6 hrs labor to have Caruso steel gears (two) and Daes oil pump installed, at a time when I was very busy and couldn't take on projects. I'm estimating that number because the actual total labor charge was 8.5 hrs, but also included changing fork seals. This was in 2013 and the shop owners have now moved on to a different motorcycle business.
I probably removed the fairing before delivering the bike for the work.
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'ey John, where did you buy your belts from and how much? It's been awhile since I last check on availability and price.
Hi Tom
I'm in the UK for starters, but I've just got this bike and the seller had just replaced the belts, the bike has done zero miles since so I was thinking fo just reusing the belts after having marked the pulley points on the cam and crank.
If I need new belts I can either get them from Gutsi Bits here in the UK or Stein Dinse in Germany
https://www.stein-dinse.biz/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=30055300&x=0&y=0&categories_id=&inc_subcat=1 (https://www.stein-dinse.biz/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=30055300&x=0&y=0&categories_id=&inc_subcat=1)
Both seem to want around 25 Euro/GBP for them (a snip compared to what I pay for Ducati belts for the 1098)
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Thanks for this thread, John. You are beginning to convince me to hire a professional when Joe's package arrives. Not for the faint of heart.
I don't think it's overly difficult (so far) but if you can get a shop with a decent hourly rate to do it for 6-7 hours time that's a good deal as mentioned by Tuyasan
My thing about getting this sort of stuff done is there are very few mechanics I know that I would trust to do this and certainly NEVER some unknown shop. Lost count of the amount of shoddy workmanship I've seen done over the years even by trusted shops............it s not the shop it's the mechanic.
So I plod along like some demented tortoise taking weeks to do a job a shop would do in hours, but if it goes BOOM then it's my fault and strangely that makes me feel better, knowing that I did my best and was very careful and probably could not have done it any more meticulously.
I also think people tend to panic at the thought of the valve timing getting out of whack. Well with very good reason, you should be apprehensive, but if that just makes you go slowly and work out your steps, then its not such a terrifying job at all.
Besides how do you think a shop is going to do it? Will they have the cam locking and belt stretching tools? I wouldn't bet on it & I wouldn't bet on them telling you how they did it either.
Unfortunately I have neither access to Chuck or Pete or Tom who I could trust, so I just have to plough my own furrow as best as I can.
John
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Could I get a copy of that drawing. I either need to change the belts or sell the bike :)
If you can read a .dxf file, I have all the tools drawn to scale.
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Hi Tom
I'm in the UK for starters, but I've just got this bike and the seller had just replaced the belts, the bike has done zero miles since so I was thinking fo just reusing the belts after having marked the pulley points on the cam and crank.
If I need new belts I can either get them from Gutsi Bits here in the UK or Stein Dinse in Germany
https://www.stein-dinse.biz/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=30055300&x=0&y=0&categories_id=&inc_subcat=1 (https://www.stein-dinse.biz/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=30055300&x=0&y=0&categories_id=&inc_subcat=1)
Both seem to want around 25 Euro/GBP for them (a snip compared to what I pay for Ducati belts for the 1098)
That's a good price. Last time I checked in the U.S., it was about 17 Euro's more per belt. :tongue: I was looking at buying 4 belts. I like to have spares but the price scared me off temporarily.
4 bikes that have belts........8 belts x $45....... :shocked: :shocked: So it'll be a JIT for parts. :undecided:
I do the same for repairs. I take my time on maintenance. No garage to take them to. If I wanted someone to work on them, it would be cheaper to fly my friend in from Sandpoint, ID to Kona, HI. :grin: :grin: :grin:
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That's a good price. Last time I checked in the U.S., it was about 17 Euro's more per belt. :tongue: I was looking at buying 4 belts. I like to have spares but the price scared me off temporarily.
4 bikes that have belts........8 belts x $45....... :shocked: :shocked: So it'll be a JIT for parts. :undecided:
I do the same for repairs. I take my time on maintenance. No garage to take them to. If I wanted someone to work on them, it would be cheaper to fly my friend in from Sandpoint, ID to Kona, HI. :grin: :grin: :grin:
I could have sworn that I purchased some Gates belts when I change mine.
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That's what I'm trying to chase down. I found a website for belts but I need to measure and count the teeth. :shocked: Would you have the parts number somewhere?
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http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68_127&products_id=1156
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:popcorn:
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So a little further today
First Tip,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Drain the oil (Don't ask)
After Draining the oil, and cleaning up, then putting the nuts back onto the cam pulleys (rattle gun and a bit of blue Loctite) then rotating the cams back to their marks (socket on the nut and breaker bar turning clockwise)
I got to here
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/s600_Uw2R1E2r6KgNJc55pBLWsEa4DgOS-BthdZVHNbi2gET4__WT9ElYbmMGViu8c3ReL3_XXQS33bRbGEhJEA7_H4NVjeOiSjEGl2E4tED0hEKuKoDip6ECcLye7mGgzzO-IokcEeh5MubnLl-ZNBiahQSmL6pKP94EY2TtZgy9I7Sk3-7kZHUAeZN0572YvZwntRGWZZkagmmSs0K6cHrvQTLLdtixYS2TWdbkat9MM2exJHomfp2EibVwgDw-jdZwsO3ZzQgRDovpBt9aRfmRBoHYB9QwbnnQ1iOeQwnBQ_HU7J-1PN--lgeAXFz_RQm_DFjlSBXzR4hcZh5h8MEvSpTLKnSZFSQZRWOAYjQTngtmFbtbLX5ZfYJAvVEzT0yffJJ8Ygvvg7ad6jIvMSnxJGemMgV0ADCNeBbXJi2wo3rK2Napva_b0d_tDViY7oUNcEVqN-I66Wi3AxUVv5dJIkSxlCH_bd0BP0VAmWHf_nP4bozKS1To-NQ4X8LImpzsulVXLa6CyFcgQAMn9kNQF38xY6IJFUPrBdg2z3jKlw5RMWtym21iKGfjuYgxBJKIESyga8oL9HKBbQgBIH8XlSHwJO7X5eXUyg5Me9BjAzS9LRicc7zIJi9BthFLzmXmQGtS4QObzImslSpSDz7z5B9eBDq=w657-h986-no)
After removing the case I'm finally close to actually doing something and not just taking things apart (of course that could be untold damage)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/A4KM_q2LmtKUc9OXHVKH9oIAMtROiThxUawpf46oMDXezWzv2EW-WlFQ6UmcxVJz2Q_aoNiF30xEz6TB_qG3PFGMitNW28nRYvyFPkehFguaLM--o0XsGf0C3PGGe5gdm9Yoem9gJOU8DLKo-Hl8Emo7k4gfp0CDdQE_T83TaVsgQ997MpciHZq1H7x38CJowPsNtP2G04wcyv-FXZHUm0gFI_UFG6lyQaj08-lp9PsjpiPWnKkWtTfBtqNWWRIh0ATJy1TNrZs6R3ouFsQBY5pXieGvDc-d2XMWHIzFijdJoMBqPwFsVJZFL76pH1WY7okQYHq2PZnqQpwZjr6TV0m1kyfU-L26eA05Hi3kNhyuB-ee5hDX_FcFmUGPM1Kse9pJYnZDVe3rQPgFMrpWFW9qb7DWLNAnu-Yw73JpsXttTGKB-vg0wZ6WBS7CZPxTQwqAPlA25-2ixgGn2yUaJQSCsdhUh_FxfA3w2xHV3UfEbzzeEieDyWj4vS9SV0_zBvslDC-F0N9nG15f6RJwjZ3F9pT7rh1CJ879JLzTnxejJ8cBZft-vYVZt5xA2x0VGPcXQ_hBkArt5br20TvJbYuqpZTBizcgluGF2tc4NDPjwmk71sElkhaAI8ociLAM9LE1uMe94DMywpq9ERNvC4atQFjg-Dc5=w657-h986-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/V91TNKeEmkqn2_jhW-D2MD0qxiJ9vhNaBgoBfAP1BWA_AvCL-08fB3jD7zxBsLB8dJLkUfivnZSBgWEmAgodCMsTBAG5tb2ajcvoHDy2LvObMA5j_OCvRQnCBUxK9FG-BmGglBZMBLQpL1xcBKBUDJz93-42lxfT_oer628d-WJ8Ze1Ns5IxwnYd8Fbt7tFNVz39QE9Pjr8sRzUj07V1yy1bmgmSrAur5rx-7DL5xp720Ykn6-NqdnIRofxObAfAPfgyJMX1gWLhf_LdYA1O2RjihjgDIWVWEL8aG345BEtaBZwy2HZUlr-zqvsg3jtjkFGiyv9k1vkCBAlkFQlGHHIByJXg8TVaqV90sLFb4dFK3yDVUwvG0_t0kZAVwSF-H-BjIBIPR4djWWgeIfthbE_Zx2QDVMqU-gXZvvsevT8mKcNm_BgxueR3XCQzl9FGSarippTZ6zBmkfbeJm3078d92oUngoe_y_3QJE73qDf8ZGnAPeSjlT6hdYs61c4h7zD0q6zO9UBbVkcPRB1z6L-hItQrkwRpkyj4lqr10WR3OHbf2IWec3TCRXFpMSWGNUZV5R0IFjxuybgJ91Y3nkAtSU46HDc6e91V7P0KRLiWzZyHq2UfGCCgJPmjWqhnI9II_BJJdQizX3hUo88XlXXPZvrBSyXx=w657-h986-no)
Maybe somebody ought take my tools and throw them away before I reek untold damage to a perfectly good Hi Cam engine :wink:
The link earlier in the thread to the Google Photos will show some more boring bits like the cap screws laid out as I took them out the case for instance (they are not all the same length)
When it's all done I'll put it together as a pdf & powerpoint presentation so nobody needs to start trying to print off the thread or anything
Chuck can I steal your Flikr pics as I may want to use them if they are better quality or anything I forgot to record?
John
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"When it's all done I'll put it together as a pdf & powerpoint presentation...."
Thank's for documenting this procedure.
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Chuck can I steal your Flikr pics as I may want to use them if they are better quality or anything I forgot to record?
Sure. I probably have more from back in the day.
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Note that Joe C has now repitched the lightening holes in his oil pump drive gears so that unlike the Guzzi originals (which must have been designed by a drunk!) there is a meaningful amount of material between the holes.
It takes a lot of initiative to do what Joe has done with these gears, and Daes in Germany with the oil pumps, and although not cheap it's really a great service for an owner who who wants to keep his Hi Cam engine going indefinitely.
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Well I knew the Woodruff keys might be a bit reluctant but Jaysus
The crank came out with a bit of persuasion but the belt pulley shaft!! I must have been hammering away at that little sucker for a good bit of yesterday afternoon, I was starting to worry about the shaft it was gruesome
Eventually today with the aid of a center punch and a substantial hammer I finally got it out, I do not want to do that again in a hurry
So pictures of Joe's oil pump & gears set
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/HCF-9ZTU8rikidrgIpMV8tTxKqmfnKUw9kUtZMmbhqDclAqE4tTIdbjCt0LUkGxqpsIyYm0jbsfMfPtjpC6g6piIbTgJhoIv6RAVGgixqFSdgxa96jYsa1uM11L3w4DudCOjg-ROoA8Awd5RXSrq3qS6iYtQk-gJbKeXNyG-YIAVUe2_iwHlPucTZuvuiQYfpO8B9CbGzBbVujfaGSSgn6MmDG4Urf6ph0l1s2OIzE4Lls7Kg8gVsJDkAG-kDWQ5cV0g9iybttH0qcJedjIEq2cncl9S35yeJDecjGnTK3QJNdyiTzobs2V-fw_hI-l8Pi0vj8M2gq2zOLNCkxmJdNFdaYF9qeJGO-2Gdgu02cttx61O3fI_rdaP8icjOvagYf5z9ofugK6XXlSTh3_1AibxduLtBUehJtlIS_HyNVzrHrqdZPZR_Tykdpy4cwSSQnZGMZIdMSx09UoUtPuK8MX3WC-Ms_KkIX7h3cmSg4jaMeceJBhXo8iInRbBC4S16j4xWEDoOJv7oykoTJ_OGdIAbuw0sGkO_GJQCVslnaoYObW9zNsF5Zdv8KReIMm79GuGLxeDaMpMxSqBqoKszAcRQsE9kQ6TBqVWFF5C-k3gubSWHBzEkfb29GGuEcVFDaf80xhOAjg93rMZCVKN3l3UWiEsy0ZO=w1478-h986-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/E7VfLpNQx-qwgLS8NjrvRkQ9SO01LFgkcBwFflEtdJc3Qd0yjtUbaUn__G0KM8KMCQEI26XWBVy4M4htmMsao1hJbp8LS9EXG2i1AnEZ5hAez-MNqYSCuUv-Rtm5sAZID5z86Av4R_N_4TyjaMXpLhNm-eY8bwfJ51tErBOqS8O_6qxvXg6HSM3fixGQMiTLeDmbA6RV4619WwS2p4ZTah7sNUGhEUcATDhJzBDUlkWU53_fvAN5TCHQ9N7vo5nqH9B04AJISAn-IyG6p3zUke_Jy1aiR_lzFTYKaXyW6khaEMZUb1OBa9jPdeM-BDB4uTZ7gcW45W1Lv3iJ7Lq6bT2BDUbjumPK5GifobwwWyd1DVnrACw1EN_HK1piZKoEU7b1HJW2Y-CdKnXVyIHI-R5IKqUa_0KY2yJ3AsopJeisvuvxFVirlaHt76XCyetCaB-ZKEPFxbQ7es4BqGQLz2lt-YOTntOHHAH1ePhmN_4BP7kvAA2TYh0shl6adaTqgw2gi_46_v8hRQ5xw6g8DCoIrLYawNDyZKmqgQVcN152emeqjVNCfaP_aqxxceZcMc36ArFoYt85xLu27KFgrclACsXu9b_hWeqp0GPJWNvIXOogp6alU-s38MNTkfB_6kxgX4pcNEe6jcGJXux143Z2obise0_3=w1478-h986-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/97RzUU1Kw9tKIThhP7K89CVcODCd8GBmAOoiKPbV1oDPf7BlUo9HowW-28ewGNqzb0_1IoFsPYUEjkwd2AlL-S91sgzMph9xpG-wT9frcm95I7QJdk6erGNdC3DyLCJ6fjDS2hShCdGY86aIKPi2RHy-3MJ4UCPBAcfNvcTJrprv2fe1ptrt5lDr3hkKB0Spce8NyUttPss_ShJV1u51HHhq1PIynIyksGKWDzWehOzHj1-lq_JC8SwRzoYSlTpUY8MIFUfysAcPjOxKnrbqu_FZVX-AeDsHma37VgQ-Kg1iBforHu1PCZmYK6CS9xCTqu3RuP3ELkuceu5Qfku4DwMwdycBB_ah_aXbcfxwDJtWay0iI6DF4znVJBYMHNONs4ahJh4qrTXwdnfomLK6tMad3P6nIcFppkOOAx6985R_6I-o00NTWru0qT4WG8jNPMAb2Bc7jDb36Thwkhpq3FX121plB5QzLrynwgiSW2m_uzSQ_cwbZsrHiM8EW6z8YXnTauGKHJz7rloNbrahnGIJqWEN04duWBkOYVYG0KWvWryYGIJ_ytFoVTLYrqvQmxFdOe75OD1GMHT-wy-GF1msFfZJI8hvbwrh5vJIKCsLl8jkQGWjSac1PJJb1Y26LCgUPXp2gqjd8NpiRjY1mCELRS8zYM6R=w1478-h986-no)
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Oooh.. shiny. :grin: :thumb: :thumb:
Money well spent, IMHO.
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Thanks for posting the pix on the thread. :thumb:
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More for those interested
Note that Joe C has now repitched the lightening holes in his oil pump drive gears so that unlike the Guzzi originals (which must have been designed by a drunk!) there is a meaningful amount of material between the holes.
Joe contacted me to tell me that the re-pitching of the lightening holes was from a suggestion by Will Creedon and he wanted to make sure Will got the credit for the change.
I reckon so should Joe for listening and updating his design to make something already good even better.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/TFkfKkabxqs-qoo5Jfz1s1ETLEhfRnw9uJRwwW7d6s1oF3RBTM3KJzWiN_4rlPKdQJPFahUI8jBLB-dO2TFI-AX86fpg2f5O_DK7D6Hu5LKyhT1J2Tpdz0dH40QmhhKQReaqmjEKNT7aRy6GTqREqLhble01MwqPn-4R1rivW0UPxgEsiiCG_qvhDG9d8xDp1DRZcXOH0I-wfGquWTfG6xjDFa9Wc-82nUVkUhyVBg83DUnGErTjQJvANSem-z1eGv7WV6lNQc4U-v7tt705LaVjgsvURNLG_cDB-QRj1piNNaLXWD5ke0gBLgw9kBS0oBEZve6Tp8_8qno1hshLD272Z1aiH01zfB_mRyjWR2hJYaMDBXxVV0oArf3R6EV8X87CLP2Za_LPBYMoQoR2LjJcJT96ozpK-8c0MFSaneO7COeB0UWZ-7kmwRsoEvIH2XtkjbQz0LsaXqi1HZZsQs3hN87JXNSHqdINDsxJlo_t6Osdqg0lVm3GNbm__wA2FCccXZmUjCtyeL218y1lUy6tdfFzdML0V2aazrxS9-AgycRRsJMwbvhKdL2hUANhMGTD8LMcci7c1H9Q-wCWmKZ3A9dofmp-dlYV-RcPM88lERuADbx2gUrkXJmsJ8oeQO4QlU6ZEWQUvHUbJy9yplL7jS65lcIn=w657-h986-no)
Pull the Spacers & bearing on the Stubshaft, come off pretty easy but not so easy that I didn't need a puller
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pJSOMpSq7U0qVSbKxaUPxfE2y7z1NJWRq20LDeHVhwRn3EXCfFzzMOhP7jGZGk-XQl0AYK9RCNIf1kt62ZfvyPjRmZM0joO1pPsNVIG5RHf7JlKf9XY3dkP329BZRZmJyrm0DeKSG5o_DNJV1TYQNL4mmAThrNJHvOQa1v5-HK1YKbPBZQP7843qSry_ltt6dMYV52Vqsrzrn3SX3wFsXO32WxFpuddkV0iEkzYmjc5kJIaDkZ-JOwcj-2iMhS53cGAga7XhG_MLwJq31uF12HLFVnlbwBpHyMcAh0gzup3_ZjrubiW7RobfD1IdMOiSNgtd8W7dC9RtvqiREjBALJvCuGA7SB_uwleTQuQFyDN1CTmJhaXxjKI_p4M3f0TTMaqT-pR5Xbn-8uRoCxZaSQXPnI39h7hAEnspRRcXG1n0KeSMYzFJymh_tKzrgrEnzU68TUIKorS-NfyBZmgFEpihgCd4j1UfpjtpfYLsyuERoH_rOPvMwNxBweGAhcobPd0kbTglk8ca9qs2EBMr8HI0tKqybFSYTNMv_yG9CPHIZKEv6ZRhZ7Ko9KtyiJbLxJXgl0k-kp222mLIjZvLfrd6PjlfSm6wCV0YXNBKtAb1Wrr4Q_1NFNE7hgL6ak8y5BwaIsVc0kKWM2NO4V4nhPjqS_qdIo0v=w657-h986-no)
Spacers on Stubshaft
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/1otXS5s6wz8vGuXYoI-4wg4NYeDWwCcWTaI8gRj7XhRDN5aPw97jT-hCjd3vzR0ybsW8ULKIzS7xaBfqdaYO252Kx7axsir8uqo1zFTICwqG3AhKW9GJGaU6diyY412PHqHQ6fTPLvK2C4JUF2TbNChj4sZm4utQ2UkrDrmGFhpt4TMeK-MsuMIDPe6STBKb2PUjb94x6uKwoSeuy-NLMSfAyHRJtv8Cdt7MrF7a3zR94bR43LcRJmjx25wX46OoVDYGj5YUMro9iFSgvgsjuWnWGcti7miq8Peup2k32prsEnRwubfH30sh7SWEtArYEIucLXCD_6YjfZjeHY9MmiyUCeES_MTBggTAbW0SWCqElFmbdelM64F5P3gCGgK8wD5ayyecKDUhBl6vHhbJh6oAkmJeJGgoo-p1Anc0zYqYRzYuIxpdJm1Iihq5krBl7njS145bURdGCqodoaEQdJLuUN3d9FmUwCLDyALXPMt3VdNvyNhapaADs7N8_uzkOSu9insD6ceOjlbGt7SOgkDop1cgK2oTcgM_xZXMqRRdFKOFxCoUi-42mkZgimH0Jii-3Pi-tYJfPNDjw3xk-x6CCJr_8SRkeHhC6Nv0CZcMU0lNtZ3GMLgf-629_m76kQ2h0AQcqJTJuZTuhJIQfSeMg6CLWz02=w657-h986-no)
Remove the Gear, mine came off after a little wiggling, no pullers this time
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/SsI6oAypzgH2MDuXOAuBIxaSwZ5qusc9JmfpTpJO_M1OW1gy1SuAOx5DAyL8oVtF8henJpaZckZymQMJlTscZhvm_fka4CvfFWJWmnhRw6FGNYNKe1fXho8U9O4RnyjXrdAFXiFYodadVUqwrRJ6drKepOgKllpZ8DxrSs9lqwUdRu3E6J00odZPuGUZOJGzW36RwU3hR4r0i6oj3skaSPsWLlY3n3VLEK5YVtcEv07KNRzbutAMNn1_-fAd1uaxzHjyLHrGeSXlGUmRyYkE6LJ15hZMyCJ1AokWYJgwinSgynoFpctgJclwZ1sIy3NnQ7e9_pNNhh0fpuytWcc98luSWMgkIvgNXc0gA5QkyETmaFozy1KN3fnMW6XD38QlQo6YL_d2nc3txTHnOZejEjMnEkLkeHeluHHhM08nd7eybKdFOTe9-sIt_BHEpmvSfgpS2BesP5Xw4O0bpyhu9B1O8hcjm05i2cGBs9ROTz_zv7Y_IC3e0IfZ3HXKk6_4J25w_nAxC5Cr-_ZVPxCPxaoQpFX2PltCAiKJX3WAcpmmzdhIMjQ54062mXxJQ06k7mrzUlHrGK5QR9uT646LaIiLxQs5iQtoJ_scf8ycuHRTofsg1MdLnYJnFDdeRfq6GBrBUZF7V2FpV8d92eCgFnyPbMSWK1u2=w657-h986-no)
Remove the Phonic Wheel, again came off without resorting to pullers
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/2MMeQpJtHjzJxgV93d3C7_NEPVrNkKyj4HKyN_u6Qoi-yCi9fQ2CGu83eMMAi1k7478SmK744gyRDKwjTO17P4yfNJWf_IxCUkaG_JLpXAvJf2MRxqfwZUX4wZwvzPxCm7SnKWrnFUCEO6sCF37YvKgyT9uUk8j5e4t4fZrA_ygBhFvyPQNnZisPryfShRxfV4KztySxt6nJMZax0G6ze-5p5-zAlHQnduH2vL36eHM2Z2ff9BXTLqFext6X7R8dH43QGc5IQ-tUbsGgBsMWVg9-6e5LDorqmxbVOBaYn5tq32E_2Foo48FLZo2lqXlmo4oKKQkciCybPMCBFFto4ry7E18LDKK0akTJ96BAzQkvZKyDgWrPqya5T49pge0uDn-St1EWWdcYF-_F4RJLuddbcQi1BXRF35WsUWc4B7SufqFvsYBIPPZ6LIuTKPwiEWPbwWZXipC2q6LFZEDWcoHYTgVv98Ez9Yj6fvTpozoP8Se1k6FqJ02klEGo7ssVYZ_6sRQsc9gjl0JRxmYFtgCU_exL1Q8jYHq-rruLYqDYO2nQXFibdokTLHKdoLSWfUgRGlT0Vp6rfT37vxou7Dt223LEIIIrp2NjENz38Y3dRo16XfL7dnPyrDzBdndhm5fmwhc7JMNZW0hWo0O7411n3msAEmSc=w657-h986-no)
Check the Stubshaft thrust plate
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/SsI6oAypzgH2MDuXOAuBIxaSwZ5qusc9JmfpTpJO_M1OW1gy1SuAOx5DAyL8oVtF8henJpaZckZymQMJlTscZhvm_fka4CvfFWJWmnhRw6FGNYNKe1fXho8U9O4RnyjXrdAFXiFYodadVUqwrRJ6drKepOgKllpZ8DxrSs9lqwUdRu3E6J00odZPuGUZOJGzW36RwU3hR4r0i6oj3skaSPsWLlY3n3VLEK5YVtcEv07KNRzbutAMNn1_-fAd1uaxzHjyLHrGeSXlGUmRyYkE6LJ15hZMyCJ1AokWYJgwinSgynoFpctgJclwZ1sIy3NnQ7e9_pNNhh0fpuytWcc98luSWMgkIvgNXc0gA5QkyETmaFozy1KN3fnMW6XD38QlQo6YL_d2nc3txTHnOZejEjMnEkLkeHeluHHhM08nd7eybKdFOTe9-sIt_BHEpmvSfgpS2BesP5Xw4O0bpyhu9B1O8hcjm05i2cGBs9ROTz_zv7Y_IC3e0IfZ3HXKk6_4J25w_nAxC5Cr-_ZVPxCPxaoQpFX2PltCAiKJX3WAcpmmzdhIMjQ54062mXxJQ06k7mrzUlHrGK5QR9uT646LaIiLxQs5iQtoJ_scf8ycuHRTofsg1MdLnYJnFDdeRfq6GBrBUZF7V2FpV8d92eCgFnyPbMSWK1u2=w657-h986-no)
Put the Phonic wheel back on the same way as it came off
Install the Steel Gear, mine was tight on the dowel holes and the Stubshaft will turn, but that's not an issue the Phonic Wheel position is locked in place with the dowels and when the steel gear goes on as long as it all lines up it cannot have moved out of phase, the only thing to watch for is that the Phonic Wheel goes back on the right way.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/rx8IUcxgjktMqQWAzfKO4mX21QfgpyOIY2o2Qkwu3qdPpvKpf5ftLdMbhmBd-aCdkgnRG3VYZjznGRXNuEsTy1uYpJ94wsr-O5NamrcKtju5IMSldpUK7i2CRP2atYUZIlBFKTtph8IPbOYbvSH_d-KcnNBj5gUO6vytuPKvHksKEFsvlqFqVD1q04hcd6anMmF5ZxaBAws_6CCNb1iCU0BeJDzO8MmpHlYKlWvRVl2pgfMoc6DzsxF3AmTYMFEoNY2tpcD6psF_zPGwE3PvWGe7GaCLBkE0MZT9UWGof2pp-LCJQ7iwkpFZlOGsdn6pLpAGB0EvHbWiHBjIRfLtV-9Zl4oR0XOq2t6Oi5VKXEn825TeErFMqDLqCuewjK91-y2bne6CfwPW19-zYRscGYvr7W5NPs-h9DyO2_O-aUZTgTqy7onsV2EeCNhn6oKesawt_n3HmYGiXDdyvijxgsEVf4HxSsFTR0F_Di3c_TDQcMJb0IcE6-LTxpkyYd3Q9uyT0_2mjy5ZXAgTYxXve7sKoeqRUZziAngU5Oeye2s8fV2OQEEx3FyQ-XLc4WwlCrjxFogNAzzP96xwHmLxuq5S2Hx9kYNGZNhHAqseeqtU-gILmlqb3EYxAFxSqZkT4J60wg4usQVsT-UZFjqqJkFxWlzTiw77=w657-h985-no)
I had a bit of a time getting the gear on it slid up the shaft beautifully but even after using some emery cloth to try to remove some of the Tuftriding? one of the dowels was still tight. So I eventually (after 2 other abortive tries) put the dowel and hole that fitted easily into the stubshaft and the one that was tight onto the Steel Gear then mated the whole lot together.
A good deal of judicious use of a plastic mallet was required to seat the gear & move it onto the Phonic Wheel. Seating was then checked using a feeler between the Phonic Wheel and the Steel Gear as "Go No Go Gauge" (you can see s**t).
Both dowels were then checked for seating using a pin punch and some light tapping with a hammer
Oil Pump Domani
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Thanks for the pix. :thumb:
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That's what I'm trying to chase down. I found a website for belts but I need to measure and count the teeth. :shocked: Would you have the parts number somewhere?
I guess that I must have purchased them from Guzzi. Moto International has them for a little over $24 bucks each: http://www.motointernational.com/store/pistoncylinder-sets/cam-belt-each-daytonas-centauro
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Thanks for the link.
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:popcorn:
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:boozing: Beer with :popcorn: :grin:
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I made some more progress today but after that I've ground to a standstill. I'll explain why at the bottom, I should also add that it slows me down by a factor of at least x4 stopping to mount the camera onto the mini tripod then line it up (sometimes better than others) to get the shots. I don't mind as I said I would help Joe produce some more comprehensive instructions and it would appear a few guys on here seem to find my travails useful.
Ok so yesterday and today I removed the oil pump gear using an external puller, the gear was a lot tighter than the Stubshaft/Cam gear but that is to be expected it is seated on a taper, it came off with quite a bang. Also if using an external puller, then either a washer or spacer placed in front of the shaft nose is required if you are to prevent damage to the shaft and threads. What I did was to back off the securing nut until it was only on the shaft by a few threads and overhung the end of the shaft, then mounted the puller so the center of the puller was pushing on the nut and not the driveshaft nose
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/4gdeYvqY-IfgkaMqnqdzGcvB4gkzvQzHHiWns74Xy3z_9riZS_9CrSYXz0KbNPKr10U8SCRo3Mm3e_JPmHxBakrZy6AjMKpd704ngNxiuFhgYAmm7AHgaacK0juMyJCmMsNCdnslPfILDE0pqyjfzm4B3b4Yj2RbjgncyDF0Cc5sK-L1twshZdsZ1Q-3UbDjy9Tfh3VrjSlM-DclFrSJugNZXgYwwTNx3qmWpcG4dR03srpfbOkZIStYoA4nE3n_OX5V7RMA6NfSDSMnYH_KFVeId9xRuvX-VnZ_VO7TzCIWvF76yRcqQm8etg3b_bGtsGwax71YlpDPbJK7A91FgN9OjTjRcKdVnfOJk6b50GmoSeERODyTY7rRBFatH7BXq08sduQRsmIsYlj6XERWJ5NxMSTtyLNapqgEXA8yckWajkpbvlsMBqitTWujG2X8P3qLwMTRVwni4kglRd8hMedlwePVAxn8gTprHMz-76RiFKRXnKXepBMyPnSfoeiMb_qGhwXOZLQ81qbYI7MaIXXmNBMtkhb03oLgptg6sgqAaQW6VdzBjv295FjWftXi6wBK-MqD1OGEzWrNymhMLNouvzBMLr1zIuArcnnHk9N9XxyVMyLEeHyuFu-joZWjSGjCmKU1XGyxmCmq9MP3n3pKFjz4nkjx=w657-h986-no)
Next was to remove the Woodruff key in the oil pump drive gear you can see the keyway it locates into in the picture above, for that I used a pin punch and a small hammer and out it came without too much fuss
Removing the pump itself took quite a while and a lot of whacking with a deadblow plastic mallet, I found out later that this was because the 2 dowel pins in the oil pump were tight onto the Crankcase. However at the time it was just a matter of whacking and praying. I started pounding on the pump body to little effect. Then in desperation started to pound onto the shaft which I hated doing but it was only then that the pump started to shift off the crankcase.
So the 2 pumps side by side with the dowel pins that have to be tapped through from the original pump then inserted into the new one & the Woodruff key needed for the new pump install too
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/yVeBZINQt9T1ectxh5kQ0BqYM6aRd-x9_G7Lh5piJgbEi1dnVYtIeEXvu_GdWFpMLJ_k3OfBlTQuj9Iu7APzQM8QMJ_Ejjb3u0BUd1SqK3QOqyGpyK5TJr-DAv4VT8q9cEUIie2OKRmFUKAlDNJID6M69fEpB4NoVaVAZC0SDHE4U6x3jKOIO35kgK96IEuOwKT9Pxg_EktusvKIa80F5sI3FBK9WpukyUUHVmhNFIsSNIsSYYfR19hbmgAIwDCGoRNtOL_ujlUHMrvI1J8VgQSOh_WcwVNk-0s1HxsgFxdFmAiPwrXqWsSZj4wU9IGFf2MHHX1_QUubqWwEbTZMRr5fTjyStaMgj9YxitlypHzz6QO0ZRBizTK9D2LhSPF9GtdbQF1CuGq-rvTuu_UO3DmPz6XQyUvoGsCqh7qzQQUT03AhkxktO1BJw3NHFidyKkaAbVr9FMo-F9rKQqO6pM3gFyYKJt-pH-E2ZdGwGSuCesOY5hyCGfaHvJUMYI6JiS91lq54QPhSL5obW9yKgBg8AGzpJM7o5xSzme1eal48_oEOViL9QVoFEgvxihHrWDGVeI9zu5Mzgr5kImjHgGY8wpDOnEdPQcUAr7IvFedhZamIHssgbUMqmfQXwLUkZOQZFRQVFoPAjaeE0pmIxr4iWadCTGAs=w1478-h985-no)
The crankcase sans oil pump
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Mhp9XutH21ygs689af4gI3K33DHcahrrLD-iHb1MEe3goADmLEOgcV5m5mP5XQ9nLa4l5QALZ7sJLtaPcQAZr0TPsmy8tzbrs-w38F6J0XCUiILP-LWz5-Z_HbQ7-ocAmmAFCZw9og_2wUUF_Fpcn99wDC1vHT-NGehx0zRMhpI_r4mYC2TLl7HqbvpJoxq_iu2DNznXUa8OcEHnNNYfmnPoI9ySxn9HHjkMf2CmcCG9_8-LZ8EUrv6Ltb7hwTuZ5cqgcv2jrTmgi-yqRf08JHQY0jc37NMBLnjiWWx4wG11mb3KWSR1qMJtZQvT4HJd360WCb25id9loZpKj3ao-GD0VRRapm8LXovLy6VFiQoUwTZ8Qjb1dMBLCpuzYOsGRtBy4R0Y7UivioYkC7frvEtn83fIcn2ubravK9z4RY0tE01T7-CmKL5KUd9xCxrWV6fzyaycQFKvVmkV9koauzlhFiKisBYD2OCP_1LFSLFS98tol9-TQ371AIrvZUlPJbqLkb23-vxIw23zJLIL-whwRRShYkX729h2XeFJUmmJPi4FlVxYTDP75FNmvwDhGQovraDa9A_RPVUgCrpsuOn35h9POsml2Yjj13bhj9b3hMiRNvEG4YP4WSaMn_zmXFneyAqmUZ_rxbV7yFaY0nyPgCY67-Bz=w657-h986-no)
The new oil pump with the dowels installed (I hope I don't need to remove them again, they were pretty reluctant to go in and no doubt would be more so to remove)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/RSvnL4N5K3YNnTssgsiUqE2Ofru7ux6U1_MipMsNhR3OuyOvKeQsG84fyFuKEboX5pll1kbnwOqZyMFyixZYZcaZnlYhzcB4J2fOSSkt3dww1rG79qQ6L3nayWaF0J2l8cm4CFMRPFLRJiAEENDa6jZR5kfCJnHMtYZV_1PBH2ccZRUgZfDuEkiUuXMWmOUXSlj8Fd2gQItC8h5_RT4ydA413qGk9GlKG--Q1gMfMKM5m7nIdRFcJIMhAfc9rnoJ55qjXu_2cwTSI5St49jcDL7pnVDCaQSlbJXLk1uqSFB1ZG2PRJ4NRulaSwfvKiZvssLPBbQLgme8J7mvWUCkJ-Z5oEd13mRMxBfP6IPFVzBlwmW_aoi-7WZG4x7zoCqHoRhvDANIEd0TmbuNmFN6KHm4Uj57ShJ3ZuJq9uglbH5Bn5EcPDRWPRsn6zbgvzuMxgwhTHq4Sdb_IFrq91s--jjR7TPai3Q7vXVrpP-c-2OzHGNHp61eFFgUBcG0BWNrvVORnWOA6DV0gURjRmedApSQfrLuzFsle6LF1TKnoY0bDVhPi5YlHHDb_VvhPudDyzQPNpYYEvVw-s5IGI0rBfeTGpjr3LMdZz_NwZuhqIi1bmSdRW0i_19gwP3ASjTRJnk5Uvtn3cC0lP9LCOCyp2FCrNmmZTEJ=w1478-h985-no)
Finally just 2 shots of the pump in situ, you need to use the bolts Joe supplies with the kit and I added a smidge of Loctite Blue (medium) just to be sure. As the bolts went in the oil pump seated without too much drama at all (these tight Dowels again) but on it went and checking with a feeler all round showed the pump hard on the crankcase wall
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/TRlaPsuf3101QUdLkhU9TvNDi0LZbicVv75oNqV-ZbksG2oX_5F8DzkRcFUlP4QxFvqgJh-5VZ-Zk06EM3velUYQcBBKx4nPib2PgZ39BldtQp5JZ_JmYgNWPVCe7MKlZElOsfpE8UKo51x-_BefSvj8smLglNnUe2hRp7gMFBzh6Be6kNW14R4Az6-Rwd4W5zDR0AP1RdtqLjgSYGqhTQDQO5XICnUeje--IdGHwigbZo6sQ76mrS5TEcj6ztUup4tb8MvLr2q9pkaMY6JyNWtFqn9I_MgSroHgzRALXpVyaPc0plHwMxW3S7NTg_jhCodQ6C6hCxYgNA2kUqNkos_7a3vZVr2UrzrOPferSNAAr9LpVKQp-93h5_iQc9WgGEExitfku8De1Jz8GKP_ljY8Cxy_ARxNgaGLqUUJIUyYclrDCf5nB2HUoQLLHJ7iuGhgikmqgMRpoQ3Lcpep7POC3LT8pT6ES5VuwkB26S2LfLxMEjFYDSlQWHshOohyaI28dml18KzunOAeWd73-E6JJRiBz2lQUSEr9JzxWFpjrjv3HG-91dU44kw6LPlDhJCqrK5q85ZPR-4BDq8rSgeQylDuAastgw__Ewe6e1lTqtcyNDNiYyM4E9tzTMba3oZu4tFFNVq7INJl4ITPamEHsnl4wabd=w657-h986-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/44Una-ijhRAf7U-WKgsAJu61V4On6SlLDpu_Jmidz-2_9d4ilPt6R_934sR4l4EI0eSL5AN88RVFypJAWhtWpzChiLSh2g2HAFwwAVDubSpXkRXdSAguXkdxw9y6FZ4EMoeZckBcXu6X9EoqUC_5q0rxbm3B309hHnja9LCxoRZA6efKbO01D3yEf3jcyNx92Vf4KnqhY1Nx2MKxCUnQWcnu52iMIDKTQuRp6Oe0GUnVtoifrXBC3impb6OWQSFZIK_lAnEHoBACOmwx7keeGPXmOA6TXh-N0Kqvdka9IuaDSCrApSi5JS7lhdrb0vUy3ywJ-G67M2G0FhnYOWUXZmyEQClEOOjTeb3zt-e5LBOp452MNZdJqPAJXyUR0vBV0vfF5lrWfeJNT3uQffqmxOQTiwfuueYplu95ufqviQnLgB22LgpCCHc0S4l9YC1VX42dd095NUn61zYPqZ94nPd_ZXt2CXXVtElcqswoZhwcK_-NpdRdSOmjzehQvj3C2CtvbzuuMwJjzS-DIBX_GdeQYcJ8uTC5BGanKWHSiwoCpO1DIPWzLyK0B1QZ1p3u9kouitjm9zuhArlRkV5ca6PPjS8I5Qwk9Mh8zazpEiEv1dnaiyWH6ysuWPQpEgXomUV2zyF5gDNtrirjRQlun1TNK7Rm2eHR=w657-h986-no)
So to the delay, well I had actually progressed further than shown here and mounted the gear but I wasn't happy with the Woodruff key although I've reinstalled worse in the past. I had 2 shots at lining up and seating the key, and am still unsure if I did so. However in the end I decided that I'm going to try and source a new Woodruff key for the Oil pump drive, I may be able to get one this side of the pond but if not I'll be chasing Charlie preferably as he posts up here and has been of real help to me in the past or Gordon at MG Cycle.
So a bit of cleaning up tomorrow and also removing the exhaust to send to Camcoat to get ceramic coated inside with a Stain black finish on the outside. I'm hoping it will reduce the heat under the fairings and also enhance the look of the bike, the stained headers are about the only thing on this bike that is not in REALLY good nick
John
ps I'm wondering if I should change the thread title to make easier if anybody starts to search for info on this modification
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I know the pins came with the oem set-up. Are they really needed if red Lock-tite is used and the bolts are torqued down?
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What's the issue with the woodruff key - is it not letting the gear slide on or moving out of position? Even when very carefully removed to be reused, they can be a PITA to get back in and have the gear slide on. Somehow burred or distorted slightly. I usually resort to sanding the sides on a piece of emery paper and eventually I get it to a point where everything finally slips together.
I made an adapter for my (small) slide hammer that threads onto the shaft of the pump. Then I just gently "bonk" it outwards until off.
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You'd think it would be just a standard woodruff key.. but.. as Charlie says, you can probably reuse it. I'd take a flat mill file to each side.
I know the pins came with the oem set-up. Are they really needed if red Lock-tite is used and the bolts are torqued down?
Yeah, they locate the pump.
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Wouldn't the bolts do that?
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Wouldn't the bolts do that?
Not sure Tom how precisely the pump needs to be aligned, I'm no expert at stacking tolerances etc: but I'd imagine that dowels (especially if a close tolerance) would locate the pump more accurately onto the crankcase wall than bolts alone.
What's the issue with the woodruff key - is it not letting the gear slide on or moving out of position? Even when very carefully removed to be reused, they can be a PITA to get back in and have the gear slide on. Somehow burred or distorted slightly. I usually resort to sanding the sides on a piece of emery paper and eventually I get it to a point where everything finally slips together.
I made an adapter for my (small) slide hammer that threads onto the shaft of the pump. Then I just gently "bonk" it outwards until off.
I'll review it again today Charlie, it just looked to me like the key wasn't seating firmly onto the shaft and standing prouder than it was when I removed it. I could still get the gear wheel on without resorting to brute force and in the case of the oil pump I reckon the taper is what keeps it from moving on the shaft rather than the key itself.
Probably paranoia on my part but I just want to be as sure and as comfortable with it as I can be.
Do you have them in stock? I'll check Motomecca on Monday (this side of the pond) but if I'm outta luck you are my next best chance.
John
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I don't keep them in stock as I so rarely need one. MG Cycle might be the best bet.
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68&products_id=3078
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Wouldn't the bolts do that?
By necessity, (production tolerances) bolt holes *have* to be oversized, generally about .015" to be able to assemble different production runs of parts. Dowels will put the location right on the money.
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I don't keep them in stock as I so rarely need one. MG Cycle might be the best bet.
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68&products_id=3078
Thanks Charlie
I'm going to try and clean this one up & contact MotoMecca tomorrow too
I'll report as soon as I make some progress
John
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Ok decided to try again with the existing Woodruff Key which was in good condition.
I cleaned it up with a Dremel and a worn out Emery cloth wheel, just a single pass across the surfaces and the edges. I then installed the key. Reckon I was getting my knickers in a twist when viewing the key from the side and seeing how proud it stood, when removing I paid it little attention.
Tapping it down with the small diameter pin punch then a much larger one once it was down as far as I could make out (a far larger diameter pin punch than the width of the key) convinced me it had to be seated. Moving the punch to either end would just rock the key, so I'm as sure as I can be all is good.
I then slipped on the gear and it slid easily over the shaft and into position. Checked the measurement length of gear end to shaft end, and it was the same as when I had installed the gear without the key, around 9.5 mm.
Once the gear was on the shaft, out with the pin punch again and tapped all the way around the gear, no movement.
Finally installed the washer, spring washer and nut, also secured with blue Loctite, I know the manual states red but I also torqued it a bit higher than the recommendation, not much but enough to make me comfortable it would stay there. Oh just to add this caused the engine to rotate all, I did was to use a large rag, which I placed between the crank gear and the stubshaft gear, that was sufficient to stop any rotation while torquing the oil pump gear nut.
Once the washers are on there is not much room on the pump shaft, the nut engages all the threads on the shaft but no more than that and the crank gear and pump gear are flush with each other on the outer edge. Joe also asked me if the gears were flush on the outside edge, so that sort of put my mind further at rest that it was all together
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/girml7op9OCQtaCPNFdAVmICalyY5E3r18FyyJPEYfzOnlzCn_3C9xfW_OZwQfzu_t1mIBuF45HsTih0XLeysu1-nEJX2ZRZvtvg1GNhspp3HmI968lqOEdwNayB6IbG9ZR9vjKzzP_tACpNTcXU1dfd_KSgG0Bnz89HBF2-wtckkTavodRcDExSrSnYIgWuWZD2jaPjHnAa-pXEuCJZA5hQWoh9vK0oeb_lJELBZAACFRTtwg2_SZCegtYZalBJQNbTzRzJuymsEPaCPmlm6CVEZdoIHAGKfPpZcar1waUvEDYs-DQH4orTou__lbV_9vUFY4_zVr33yUmJ0m8NSC1BMxEN2xV8ugRnHaZpcJZFBntnYfVOEPEQiruUPtZWY0DBiPsr6HupS9TvqmL4Fbym8mbEfamPV7sn15ZDW8Cb3DbPe-mD1yQCTzy0iyycLTLPADOKLOURXYjIz9lAX2C9g88WLjdrDYi_iYOlbEqdTgTytRaDYu1uVTJnAcBn2Ctv5_UZebw2UG3I5Kg8NHW2QPEhWpVDIQGjIh51B0j9vSeR7Jik2cCgjRIVYGE8WlFDIhjc0SIg2dLAtk_P9YrXhtOBy6Z2FPttnVL1hm8lTzHbQeEc8LGSWqcp3AX1BSoVGygAuM0XpCGpt1HRG2WXiD0P0aoP=w657-h986-no)
So all together and ready for the timing cover cover to be reinstalled, well after I clean off the old gasket and reinstall a new one that is
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/mQesRsvTfZvRtLWO3zeBceq91G1biqTKWIuSdfS12zKRe7ko2iYzRzP2ybSQJiUyjpQJPsYtdTOODQApMQDqQ6mT8LO0tYpJ7ZzPu1T2dAdRMIT5zcxq0SYYjyMB58XTex2b8ciR7k9ZlAOBxB_T-qZF-mMT95rO926FqCJbJPWV_-NhymLfBVPz8boU8-xJ_A4Gqc6xBvpxPaCXoTnkrNVilmEGefYKdGJC5Vr2zgtAVY6kl-rqLsjDPqTdeSJ3X_GdLGqG8U_dnEtMM8Dac0ZQbVhsvBtt3VfwbyOhk0oItF-HRgcU9NWIKqglWlZZYgLl_Kn2ct97sX3ZR3T4EpxCRaxQ9uSEz1MiyPFk9MBAMT6e74HpxweSsceZ2hzslnmKZdgV3k9dG91mHWQrcFWqQjunWkcZ6jzr4NmY-RNUjKmYvNO-mZDPg_fROc6TMpDFf-jQUqGiP4MspVc4f1QtDPVdOZCBsEnK5vR6EHVU3Ub1TSPTTU14e8eflFFdvQbi7OqheU4ygv1drN12nYt-1QzZdDpt9NfFMZMITVt-RElwhKsOrDESqqWofkjSk3zVcBpMfTpQAYN4Tct7vWsL6qkA14wg_86DR9xWnfcBBY412QdPIyqAmGmBM2VwvY3SThr4A40VAsf9e__MztIRhVXjsMA9=w657-h986-no)
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Just had note from Joe, I forgot about packing the pump with a light grease and he reminded me, it might be struggle to get the pump back off now.............Dam m, Damm, Damm
I was thinking about using some assembly lube I have lying around to do that, as it's pretty viscous stuff and would have less impact on the oil
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If you don't take it off and pack it with light assembly grease (Lubriplate 105) you will really, really, regret it. Thus speaks one who just been there and done that.
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^^^^^ this. Lubriplate is da bomb.
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If you don't take it off and pack it with light assembly grease (Lubriplate 105) you will really, really, regret it. Thus speaks one who just been there and done that.
I hear you I'll do it today although the thought of taking it off to redo it is not exactly filling me with joy and happiness
Thanks
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Lubriplate arrived bigger pack than I was expecting, I'll use it for the cam followers too, later
Anyway back on topic
I had to remove the pump and gear again. Any thought of the gear not being fully engaged was alleviated when I had to pull the little sucker off, it was quite a struggle. Fortunately the pump came off after a few light taps on the shaft and it started to move almost immediately.
My original Engine reassembly lube was not viscous enough hence the change
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_EeCIo8XYZkdtUIvvS5zkxfA1U6TPz0S6c49_oVAZ6aXzgNZoCkGYr8oBbMi1Tyg_O6ILTOuPORxwcnmJ7IDqlyofhsV8IbHiyCzpVEQz1saHYs8GFr7IqrJ03sYitAwr87AnpA-zUY_bKyHyjwBvq8gQTyijkmgpR4eOKpE2-KAn6KmzR9nVY9RdQBaloexDHpYMaQzdX9ck61ngdiQOT0KYWxR8Wi-JQs0E6nKYHMcmNEuco4f2sXSC4eAsm2QJhuJexeSCjcwtOfcPZv921IG_rRQKMvgW2VjS5hMoFZltKYiYs3OMSuQCv60R-PKfVlB4u8EaQZr9IWkZGTM7AYij_1rZznedL-NmDkp6E8HSHCt4tSm9fE1nXb1dwTqMvjbYogtiuM-RT7Ey0-a0-DC_uEGvsMrFedqLlDNf86Ne6a6HlIOfOcB7VMvqR_PP2I8luc4HnoN8UqQWRc9-FToSbZsoAg52GYykMM4AdGFH52CbBiJsQFB1XjQl1EbdUjK5wwVXxS-iN_HneRyAph-peiYcQUQ0EraY1OFMVJIe4aZUbLJomHE1GzUXyurqZ1_zaLOVCIzQJJe39BwON2XEg2nWi5-3asaAC-f2UFuDJ1mYmC7KIw-qKFfPKQQ5dviIqtiK8Dq87on_NDycUK4t6f9iVVc=w1478-h985-no)
Packed with the Lubriplate
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/27J4CgKvO1yp5F8_AJ9eiLWjWF1EZQXJgFaUAL9yI70kJXBxpI1YH51zhbjKpJ6J2_6ESWwtcF6yOA23QYfW_LKNyP_LT0NhtHkP9Go3J0AIig2La2oJzOYFhPJQeZWI6-tm6FaLKA5tQmRO8uVeM5hsuSB_He632cY5uAChd_N33_uBefimaErfReTZvFkwB-scdH4U6QHWRtTLUPa2n-WmbFdab_sIoQbfBIJhi58VSi5hYQfzDTWheer0KW6GAiciXZA8zPP362zfSUZxvxsJA2kpPwb71Ik5Zl2PP_HhiEp9lPhyuDW3kV5QV8zeu1hDf2J-ZBiIDj6fCoFLb2H4nkRHCgntPXnzfi3FQ0GmMiU1FujogtWLFKXwk7sfFHcEMvcw3t3T10aLdAj-BQgi6-VYNkzPOLLTZ5tNqNbkRCUmbE6bvYy4-hNamFGTAyedY7_gUODEXJOdprVY4kmaZx80mmTdabR-raIybGFbfsRhMSUwb-XBHCswFUZcAUKUfZj4UhrV6iPZDgyGuqlhOtjppPutvUwHaIQ8sHNvYiC0KHoDAetQmRCvEFeSIz2Sc8khzh-lOdFN5ev6l_2ommppmQZGm1cIht8ArUq0memAEoIGlpeZyWbdcF2elJqK7JC6NO6IXYdcvj_R1lFKxYGhMHyI=w1478-h985-no)
Next cleaned up the oil pump taper and threads with Tricloroethalene. Inserted the gear onto the taper and tapped all the way around with a soft mallet to enure seating.
Had a change of heart after some mails with Joe and installed the original thick (3mm) stepped washer that was on the original pump and the bolt supplied by Joe with the pump (although I doubt it would have made any difference if I had used the spring washer and plain washer Joe supplied, which is a setup used on the 2V bikes). Applied 601 and bolted up a little past the recommended 2-2.2 Kgm
It's also important at this point to check the tooth engagement. Nothing complex just to ensure that the gear faces on the crank and oil pump are fully engaged. The gears are pretty much flush on the end with each other.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/bstW6pwYo0ohXOZztoxF02YHa1qsCmEqgprbxZ8RXUoN_gT_T-6EvI2ybfOB818AQ4xBnHFwpoJgQmHxKAokrCONrXVH95l01kHysoGLzgwGydkHq5Tc_mLo7bITOYHEnhyHFrbHHNjEqcJT0Ys31QBIhDuzRVRnnbUwxSz3XcyKi3ZsUPG-rCoBxFx-pHEwwpC26oaRCWa6X77PKmZiBSJ4GGrwbH-fZC3TBtn9P866s923TBgEmyi_Itj-CaR0Mdqr2CLf_rKo9IpBOWjVTmBHHJRU_xJ6J9prL9FTiL69T0FOcJfj6K-ZE3Mo6J6rLBkRxZ3h1Wod2OCxUo5X2_rgqZTaoCFbvX9gnscgp0KdnDNtXiFGAk8az5xusX10pJOhGRfKgj0VZGZv4Ge4kLy2fATHcRR1J-D3ji79X1ARbLjadFKgvA5r7dZZQeGoA98MbTeSMjSHVs_Oyp3KsC5XkX_n3s1VekcxcbjcJCF8vl5B7Dm7BxV6TRCn_8hh2APKSUJRUZgoRJu4guCEV4PaKoshDcmmRisUubdk5TzrVD0tdnwkdZ0wh-_pMPGOV86SLIGeHxYlrF74fIVT33TTof2Sbdu95pPDlAtS5a2cbVu4X3JpKSYjqcEBxFEGV8mEb4m3dOmz3M8-pRgwDeFOAAloPF_U=w657-h985-no)
Moved the gears into position as they slipped a little when tightening up the oil pump bolt
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/hzEfK8cPZWu9dDBtESajmDrAbCjlsEkaBcRVqe6xal9fQqXme-63Hd9P2lvjPdrkQ3hpBxQRfz65Q8KbJ2RP8eMWPwV10Y23aepbZGaAU4DXMc3IZK_xiW29jCGsXNBNXj9kzsLmk50FwsJvAmKU1Kg30jue2bAm69Em1ZtZSZ8jpMyYJEn3mPJdcnMGB3njtl2zGFF8KpjeJyiXVhqaBEf6jjiWZh-tBnSfz03B2GWfQhKC5er8sAVhb0-sjTj46AY6MZrk1MSw5RUFzeyB4PWKS6lY2hR8QrI3k0eeEuVUz8If47krgkIoDyyjM2ppeIu6GlUm1FlBhXzQSzo2drw3NSpLs52v_4nZkChB39yrxlS84XET9S8bbvpoVhiTUQNiXtEXro3cutoVhUWcGSqPq5nw-EStxw6w_bhE9IFzX1rzr6tvBbTcA003KlzwpFeCLQdR6alL8zcLxf19LmWsV103GMJVdVAuWqIMr0xm4l2KusFrIemMgLUHyXN9Vo3hGZ7PBJkUUrn90yuqErBM2JmP5u69m77HZ3diTRqUusr3TntZsCCQvU5gkKdnshvWzM9QjIzvBTGKfWZHfWV6B9_wPhlBfxwadwvMxr0t5OYnmqh5Q7AlJkPjMOUo766WvrEnjDPVGQecauEK5vuVyRX2dBuV=w657-h985-no)
I now have to try to determine if there is space between the oil pump shaft and the timing case cover for Joe, as he may extend the shaft a little to ensure the bolt is on completely. The threads on mine are fully engaged but not by much.
Then it's onto the timing cover and pulleys
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Not much been happening, been delayed a bit by odds and ends. I have just put out a post on the phonic wheel sensor air gap and finally gaskets and Woodruff keys arrived.
Once all that lot is bottomed out I can start to button it up.
In the meantime while I was in there it was a good opportunity to put in my fittings to install a remote pressure switch (better quality) and hose primarily so as I can install an oil pressure gauge
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/mmf-fovh4em7YAD9CeU7kP-z0rBnBBWWE6NCmNCBNafaegarupHtlKH2PqGYU29-FoEToJRlLl33VP9EnxoTDhXbzw-qYn8c_8PEtNHsMwSE2k5Mb9qBZ9A7NHDpSGV96lNCpWkunOzIP0XHkhPgOwWhaVOpRA0Qix370KLIEgWWbWG2gcDiGJgCORaBlEYIb_OuUSjuC3FGQAHVGJ4EmLQo4TfBJdznwhkRprcPwplsxyBY-jUcuX2srAv3pVNcXQM0RdBCA33xmsuffRek9DWVLUA3-CiAMETQOY4re_mNJbpDjikHLV4pUfbMF29nOjdOu1W3LiH_Nv2X5LD5vYFt4IqKARUBEpfhMZ7rjtRMlfg-hc5DqZeJi6wzDN7wnjPvmRfRUF0ScUu50dTPvJ7myOECddL2hh4JnoKg_auVLwwkzXyCwG-rB4AfPXgQxl7oaq8eisg_rZF1IFAnbqeFfoUgcuPq3ZhxEJI5fZh4p_CG6dF8_RumrTjIsx8zkpnRvfk7KEnIA5p717jf1-CGlCcjAVBWVX4kK7IPNBB9UWZ8dY8gwBj3H06OFlr5AqDb3CuZR6E6nYQIUVAaZhHYB6NzLO-SdyJ-1-8TV87xgvm2vI-V-JoXrKJO8XFHUfIAy7RE8k3DWNWVuWvVApFRz9KCKlYV=w1478-h985-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/j2VTfOsEWyanXjKGB983odH6FYZS_JlMQ7s5AcBfDvbuqsVHzkQf2KWPA6Z-fRm5adglFZQBNvA6scwpfIh_RxfHHhDKFvI8kuG4QX7dfr99Nw3X1P2mZG5OycVjtRC2sSoAPHSy0RpLpGgcSEupV6--eV_XmH26vyviFN3FkNImPD7elz-f0eVfgYmarA8HV-HTwSf8qaGhkAryYX-GB2h9yLGKIL5s9_KDalgcEuHEGigA-mPu29yDe5WTb4ozjEpq7jXhDIOkeyQcYh_Cs1ccJavgJQcjuCvuWppP_pWKowqniEhTbjvS7Oxj9ytHJXQBGpZGvIU1lmlWEv1OcE5TtFqced2UMPpKDI9ECHWkomarPcCuQPvM9CAI4BbhVavu7ESkw4Onylavawy0tIWijzSFX5abqwCcGCw-CMK70qGeeapHuG246FCMgBhzJQ-aebbe4UCkTe-B-f6P8_FciFIqan7j-pioRj7BMSH0pAyX25CZFUSQ76jf_Bubytnk6bvlZHAQYy4cKeRQaITAuH18BTJJ5gtFUx8rVzM-Vmps8ndhk5VdjLtoA6EeEiSyP9as9ELmqtR_-kx4q7oPec0rWWKCT7tyiIqwffDox6oxZfM63W1bFuuzKtabSqUQ3Y8c9UPJF0QLo9vWs9NN3NFqfpVK=w657-h986-no)
Just the hose at this point as I'll need to determine where to mount the switch, on previous 2V bikes with this mod installed, it ended up close to the front cross member around where the external fuel pump lives on this bike.
There is an awful lot of stuff in that area, fuel pump, coils and horn, when I did this on the Sport 1100i, it got pretty crowded.
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Pretty sure I got mine at mg cycle last time. Easy to change, once you get to them.
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Pretty sure I got mine at mg cycle last time. Easy to change, once you get to them.
Not saying they are hard to do, but there is a helluva difference between a 2V and a 4V Hi Cam engine in the amount of work required, if the switch goes tits up.
With a 2V you can pretty much get to it without removing much of anything, maybe front wheel and calipers.
With the Hi Cam, front wheel, calipers, coils, horns, fuel pump and associated bracketry plus wiring.
Followed by front subframe, belt cover, belts, cam driving pulley, alternator, belt tensioners (at least loosened off) all the Woodruff keys associated with the stuff running on the various shafts............. .....finally timing cover and then you find that with a 22mm spanner wrench you get limited access to the little sucker.
Then you need to reinstall all the s**t you took off.
My take is if I can move the switch to somewhere else to make my life easier I'm going to do it, although the main driver is to install a gauge.
With gauge and light I can have some confidence of what is really happening. With switch, or gauge, only; then you will freak if the light goes on or the needle takes a dive.
I've had failures with both gauges and switches in the past.
With a back up, I'll have some idea if I can ride home or have to park the bike miles from nowhere and start walking
Just my experience
John
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^^^^ yeah, it can be an all afternoon job, especially if that big hunker bolt that holds the sub frame on is frozen.. which it tends to be. :smiley:
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In the course of my work on the Centauro From Hell, I disassembled and reassembled the cam drive pieces four or five times.
The first time, I removed the front wheel, subframe, brake lines, etc. By the last time, I had learned that it can be done without removing all that stuff.
First, remove the six bolts that attach the subframe to the spine, but then just move the subframe forward - you don�t need to actually take it off to remove the belt covers or the timing cover. This means you don�t have to take off the brake lines and disconnect all the wiring.
Next, you need to figure out a way to lock the motor so that you can remove the nuts on the crank, service, and cam shafts without an impact wrench. This is important because if you need to use the impact wrench, you need to remove the front wheel to make room for the impact gun. Since the bike is on the lift with the front wheel clamped, the front wheel can�t just be moved out of the way.
One of the boxes of parts that came with my non-running Sport 1100 contained a starter that had been cut apart, and then jammed with a set screw. When this is installed in place of the regular starter, the drive gear in the jammed starter engages the flywheel and locks the motor.
I just put this in place of the working starter and then can remove the shaft nuts with a breaker bar. The jammed starter is also a big help when installing the degree wheel on the crankshaft.
You can try to lock the motor by just putting the bike in gear. Good luck with that.
This is not an easy job, particularly if the right cam spins as you�re installing the belt and you need to degree the cams. As others have observed, the motor is really a race motor which went into production without enough development time.
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I have an engine hoist/cherry picker for contingencies that require the front wheel being dropped plus a moto lift. I know most don't the options that I have. Good luck with other options. Good to hear. :thumb:
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A little more progress, there has been a lot of other stuff getting in the way including breaking an exhaust stud on the 1100 & quite a few re-do's and retries on this job.
Highlights include, checking the Phonic wheel gap and finding it's out of spec (I got it into spec with a neutral switch gasket), finding the cam wheel was out by 180 degrees (I have no clue how I managed that) and buttoning it all up before trying to fit the crank spacer.
So doing it correctly firstly using the service bulletin and shims check phonic wheel to transducer air gap is between 0.7-0.9mm use neutral gaskets (0.2mm) or phonic wheel transducer shims (0.5mm) to bring the gap to spec.
I also learned that you don't need to remove the tensioners when removing the timing case, they can stay where they are; I just used some cap screws and penny washers onto my puller and Heh presto I can pull the pulleys easily. Before I had used the puller on the side of the pulley but that can distort the shoulder of the pulley wheels and is not advisable (DON'T ASK!!! :violent1:)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/4jla4-43YE5hnAUkJ89lohxR3-MIURoZlvWvcMn3SZ2kYL9OjOWI8hHjroXWoriutxTZ7hDWoIUW0duEYT4SGaDZxW-Y76y9YKpu84g-zi0zRc6t8gw4-ZEguJSTNd663YUXrHOqp7GxLdEMr7ehFX5ZQKs8cNcxAo2buKFJx8pVhCG7OBa-rio6MN0C139UPYpjkTkDKNiJt5FM2MOHx_NN1v-giw0JH_-DcGPaFfcMaEqguRF2CVKv8QRecTXpfOVLADlnt7MGFCGz5C86PegTHBiN7DqCpdq6dTlQo1L6G8TXL7QTf6mL1VsgbEkNcoEbqgU-msrviqvFosSJzVswBH8G0uBNqw4u6xOS_aEW4xmWq1F8RceXJjWOykialEGRBfjsGeS_-tLQc8ITI_J1u24hXA2kzv3o9cUTA68pFSYW_0-0S3orw2GyAFK4bLPX0sZAS9PHpBCe4T_Zez3XKhZISOYxQ4UMcEAvVoH5gWpzpdpmyz2zYhYi0eELEsaeVX3G6RZKwzl13aSLC51JhtOjnMubnAngcGRTIgcq0UTLyG_twbDVjzLokic3WKioaW4_ndM3HlC21fTTZ1aEVe-Mt9ggf4_q4H8PnpaMORor56vwPTytuhhmFDR6_vW1YKI_nue7kQXFHNOvX8QSPO4idr03=w1478-h985-no)
Check the Woodruff slots are in the same orientation as prior to the original gear removal
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/oeDAT42l7Nw1tHlbQ3K4UsEZiPivpZNDl3bCOVgXfoti8KO-NnDbFEnGuX9OVYaqpmBaI08eNVJct4LrUGX15QU7tz3ja7vluj7ZoGQ6Yg8PziQcWEkD4T3_5R-fs96YfvBFHeOt3UW1WvnpsYW8Pn7l5ZkZ2zhf69YMMhgQwBpl6rL7axMiuZtayYQNSInfZYhepYWo0dLtvaBx-KN14Bk9-rhEGQ59RYk7nOtWWSf1QFxv2su9w44aU9W3Y07c85WMpuCGNZUQ5ul_wZE-OTYyukrSaTcBOgcP3Lfa_XANDPeaf9QiRNlBJnTsmwPO0wUIqtZMokI7VKGrGHAym6CF22vo-WGeJRqFcxYUi9cidnRyKdaQEExWoftnLFdhrM_s4HOYlP1RLcx4S9tBFZMG5NcxyVCpUDi1x5OHjAy79BHntUxHLovBFp279z19Ha-7KcbNzh1orwZAN8yNtyRqC6d8bU23RevT2Xkuy3fei01SXnolRqxDSvJb5bk29NgwYeq3kLWxd4AGCAc_ddUKldjhqoAvEocQbacDavPigqJ19bCXGfxMXE-6pOgD7B66WlGKLn5lOyCdXFGPNcuHUslJUiIABXnRYQ8xrMXgWSa5B2Tj-vgzKil0KxFvTCFt51nQhQfiC5EOGG7O_hllneNrZi8x=w657-h986-no)
Install the crank spacer
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/dGKSR5gZGxCE8oKZcyXq5e1aIHMUlfEKLz3NwLxzSoilbsSmKrwluX2TWM2J-0N8pADq7wYDeT3FjJwRxR_ghvYu0pPY35UoQaTi1WWampnWB5G0tyED-bm4rqbaRwZCFup9isy7t5IhL-ewLLKQLFZUQZDe1qCV7k9lCJTsRBrP1J4Ftv7qqRKVcNANf308DNE9Dtbe8Ls4UUrmmHGlRKJ2GBtjw9ZcjkWAhP_62Vg6gUGmCoyGqwwrgVZwuH7ezFmz2StmgiHVK7U0ywClbhskb26hmTup_wbFz-77tuBPHDN5BS4dUPXovjIyYP4h_kGgQuH9mFZSsCG8preZmP8spBjO_mxHIdUSHjPrMeF6Dozj94tHoxXrC3Q9RCHQ8Oxp_QX8ie0ozZQWlgPMjFPsD8uElhYwEIWsY7xHHlOVBxYr7CYutl3GK2HVwdQtj66HesDlVGIHizT0L2W4IKYc_ogL1ohtJ1Pw2bxsvhqyJFzLUP8snbHpuTU5HKlXk5HSPsROrzk8PPurQrJcgNop3lLErpdi7luk4Ko7BQgBmZ8GhFyaES4d8SZM8qLsMtCcrMeyopDNXAovm1YLCgrDYbOMF1A3rtL_dQrHnhi579nWfcCZx2Y1msW02sTY-DhS3-PhmflsMG1bURRWEVtAF8EIeg4U=w1478-h985-no)
Install the Cam/stubshaft spacers
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/FmXlKsbXPEVwB4TltDSBAYFPfLYiKVQ-cMZJjf3K8Z2v7OBPG8wABvqGY2WFZF6lX5WBNCMlIIW-K0sHASSZVGXqowVdEkgLOovs8xAjHYzyAwfJe1q1GINBDqAU-ra6kAvNYBRdU9-WRbU8A_E_iKHGq7rE7vUF4t7-xQQ_PRHRox6BQ2omFVMVw_UemnYvz9iw5dTeG7yji-i1nMV6jZS6inXW95ctXVQcx4AuJzdCWuX8Zu6Ow4EpmfvwBaiAqF3aIpu-6HelorehmZFymh4rs-pRDE67AGj1sSR0HCb_3J_mrimtmLCIqWG6TWQNcliC5tkP4acu1TKOHBUe1z-8E0exfFrJ2m-bu_b74XPqcSVn0TyBswMbPeqdA70BxtYe-MIuW59zCX8S7lg68y_OT2cPjYuJXLvaQlDkpNtg4Vbivb828_w68N8d5B2bTW_cZ8kRCvlI6WccaKT6jVUg2-68IKpHdjqfUf9Xw_uAewSdM2wubftEHPVz22faKzUhooiROTgvdCwvTTIdie3HwUwMxqq1-zFijyXFlcXa2PiflOBEddO4_59JCyEwDCAO-8HUsI9kkmRzxynnapIC5OV_HIJjoYm-Pp20iP50vx6p1z3E_RoCoR167XF-ZkXMc7ZqjZ0WWUtHR0TngwuDpih6lwmF=w657-h986-no)
Fit the timing cover and bolt it all up
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/CKikKOmE1Eo9_mFh7uwx1rOu_WSkO3A_KBlW_I5QoqEVqearu81SHJG0hGbMVQA3RiigbhhSTAmM6cRbkXzAacQu0Xr-UMjYbI-6MXMueP2vBSj-DT2N6k6nk_XDfZ76oPAQ2C7CfN6wJ4EKtHVjrLi2aYOVlxxgG54sMIvxcTuf471YVQ8Xd8iWgw3edav2x5ds8avEKKSPlhzXF12Z5dbLrLBhHflKDIp7I8W4jgHhcxXPhs6PASASHUDDSiNidi92Boy8hidM4RpEMZnQDBh6Bydr66r5RYFXhqisCpT6KP-K8alYJtqeIfsZjdyyuYFtXNLXOkt-csOYj2HaTYB-GuesRL7Mec2gtoy-K5zZQnixuQl3LZkzPRDRc11snGNPQgOJkOYI-VIlEmz5n2zibymeLd_37SCaOmmcrWBlQW71EKXvDhqXUdSJZz21JlarIftKd9TYB9GGYRUN1sdy2aK6Zk34yLMgcH6D1CU5u-n83SiB-RooDQKF_HkSnv4-K36LecBSuXCSoy6dBt3McEetpxeV1ivwAw25bW902yAK46EDzMAXVseUszC-zJUWKhMXiwby2nlE7fTFWLdCPGnmnbi2XkpeRXEbh6sJPO7jyWW9fSr7C-aNIZrU3PUcuCQSgjQanxuF6zZ5N9rlCGqYq_Ry=w657-h986-no)
More later if anybody has the remotest interest
John
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"More later if anybody has the remotest interest"
Yes.
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Getting the cams timed is tricky. Have you removed the rocker arm assemblies?
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"More later if anybody has the remotest interest"
Yes.
Me too. I'm checking in now and then - and if I ever get my car re-assembled, I may even make a start on swapping the gears on mine :undecided: My biggest challenge is likely to be 'locking' the engine to get the big nuts loose; although I've an old seized Le Mans starter motor that I might try to use to jam the flywheel.
Did you find any problem with (..or wear on) the gears / pump you removed, John?
Steve
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Getting the cams timed is tricky. Have you removed the rocker arm assemblies?
Not yet sir, when I was on the abortive assembly to try to install the crank spacer from the wrong side, I had the belts on and was ready to tension. The one on the right as you look at the casing (i.e. LHS by convention) was out 1/2 a tooth, but when I moved the tensioner into position to pull up the belt it was pulling the cam reference point to near enough bang on where it should be. I also had marked the base pulley point (the cam gear/stubshaft) on the belt and the points where the reference marks are on the cams. Again I assembled using these marks, so everything is as it should be and I'm confident (well as I can be) that nothing is out of whack, it's going back exactly the way it was taken apart and everything seems to be lining up.
The object of this particular exercise is to replace pump and gears. Providing I can get it to go back the same way (and it appears to me to be doing that) then I'll be pleased enough.
I appreciate your concern but I'm not timing the cams it was never my intention to. I'd love to, BUT, I know my limitations with the tools (and some might say intellect) available.
This exercise (so far) is not much more risky than a belt change as far as I can see.
Me too. I'm checking in now and then - and if I ever get my car re-assembled, I may even make a start on swapping the gears on mine :undecided: My biggest challenge is likely to be 'locking' the engine to get the big nuts loose; although I've an old seized Le Mans starter motor that I might try to use to jam the flywheel.
Did you find any problem with (..or wear on) the gears / pump you removed, John?
Steve
I rattled both the nuts with a gun, Steve, so the engine did not have to be locked super tight. The gun makes a big difference but it is a bit of "sledge hammer" tool & not ideal. When you're taking the nuts off, the belts are still in place so you don't need to worry so much. I put the bike in first and wedged the rear tire with wooden blocks. Seemed to work Ok! Any movement is not the stuff of nightmares as cams and cam gear are still in communication. It's when you pull the belts that you start to raise the excitement levels.
No wear to either pump or gears Steve that I could see, no scoring shaving or play was obvious on any of the components.
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I asked about the rockers because some sections of the manual suggest that they should be removed before timing the cams. This would certainly make it easier to install the vernier gears. I didn’t do it that way because I was concerned that loosening some, but not all, of the head bolts (which you do when removing the rockers) would cause head gasket problems down the road. I am wondering whether anyone has done it that way and if so whether gasket problems followed.
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I asked about the rockers because some sections of the manual suggest that they should be removed before timing the cams. This would certainly make it easier to install the vernier gears. I didn’t do it that way because I was concerned that loosening some, but not all, of the head bolts (which you do when removing the rockers) would cause head gasket problems down the road. I am wondering whether anyone has done it that way and if so whether gasket problems followed.
The only thing I can say about that is I also have a solid set cam followers to go in, but they are not going in this year.
The guy who sold me them Bruce Rawsthorne advised me that I could install them by simply loosening off the head bolts to get access to the followers to replace them.
This guy has built more Hi Cam engines than total bikes I've ever owned and is very experienced. He did not seem to express any concern about loosening off the bolts and then re-torquing and not replacing the gasket.
That's just advice of course so when I do it I'll let you know, but I do understand the concern and follow the logic.
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Finally assembled
Things that help a lot
Knowing the crank turns clockwise as you are facing the front of the engine and remembering it turns twice for every one rotation of the cam gear (obvious I know but when you are moving the rear wheel to get to various marks it's so easy to forget)
Remembering the cam service shaft will turn anti clockwise as the crank turns clockwise & any number of crank degrees needs to be halved on the cam pulley.
So with the timing cover on I tried to torque the nuts on the alternator and cam service shaft, fail because I could not lock the crank to prevent rotation. As I was installing a Roper plate and I did not have any method to lock the crank, I decided to drop the sump then the internals for the cooler and the spacer plate. That gave me access to the crank, with a small piece block of wood stuffed between the crankcase and the crank counterweights that did the trick and I could torque up the nuts. You will need to move said block from one side to the other of the crankcase as the crank will turn in the opposite direction when torquing the service shaft nut.
Sounds like a lot of trouble but if you aren't lucky enough to have a buggered starter motor or the like then it's probably the easiest way and works a treat rather than trying to jam the back wheel (take my word for it and just forget that idea). It means dropping 14 bolts, no center bolts under the sump on the broad sump engines, all around the periphery. The downside is that the 2 breather pipes need to come off so 6 crush washers required to put them back. After the sump is dropped, then 4 bolts remove the internals and although I removed the oil filter I think it can stay in place when you drop the whole gubbins. No need to remove the spacer, but it helps if the bike is blocked or raised to see what you are doing.
Assembly altogether
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ONb9Gd6lmPWkVkZdnF-ENgfp9L69aKHvbSYhQRiWm7VNGXbHHaKqs6IRe3z3QUkdDfg2_6NSA9n0peE3HsqkNTiw8pZLJLyIEPd6zpWHNFZFa8gLWSoqu_v2DhU68criDNTqLQrsZSiUy245fZBFrDUq4KK7yN6xXl_nPb8tdyXcxaspG9JcsDNtZTCJu5MZx8GYvRzJ1S6N2SfBHFjsIWovj_hf4OekpBLGTM0AIx47xaV2nTby0xmF9c-RS6vH9rF07vhZHXRi_atjEYzYBUzwwfd-fDme3IYbeD8joeOn9uHRsIw8EowTMWvTMiCGR4bGd2VipSitn2y-jymid2hL8KZkSMT1kEEqlPISfvhZz9Rqod0dvs3Z73agsQRiCQztV755ccE7hMk5m9M7yq_QsbQm-F5J4_N2P4fMTwYNhhqWrKcYSQJGg3ysey7AYElzK4oiQgWbaLR7bYbTCU6ajYY2LQSbYwNin8iz8wCsSyduv120CBFH6-WZxdWERaCFoIOyoncPACJrsQmAylE9dw9SE_kIYqG27N5JkO2zVkwxPGUet7P9SPM6GOMwrf2bu-yd-VG0k_8XCx59OLY0TQf9gAogFpOvnEe7PZ2rR0iwTKf1GrWGb2m9npY91hsu_KphV4zN9BzyYQgCYW5h7ExV1qX6=w657-h986-no)
Next is to tighten the belts and that's where I'm in deep shit. I have limited experience with belts, very limited, I've tightened them to just about being able to push the belts 90 degrees with my finger when tightened. The belts are adjusted with no load on them at TDC firing stroke. So first the right one as you are looking at it (left in standard terminology) I use the marks on the pulleys plus the flywheel mark plus a little wooden long barbecue stick that the better half has a pack of in a drawer. A long lollipop stick, coffee stirrer etc: would work just as well. It's scary how close the piston actually rises, well it was to me.
Before I button it all up I'm going to call a Guzzi mechanic in the area to get him to confirm my belt tension is Ok and I'm going to get a belt tension tool made for future too.
I'll now need to start to write up what to do and not do as otherwise I'm going to forget
But really unless you are timing the cams (which I didn't) it's no riskier than a belt change, it's just a lot more work
Hope the thread helped.
If Gregg Bender accepts the article then it will go onto Guzzitech DK now under "This Old Tractor" hosted by Gregg & I'll flag up with another thread and a link when/if that happens
John
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:thumb: :thumb:
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Thanks for the write-up on this, John. It's thrown some light on the job for me.
I swapped the belts on mine as soon as I got it, and I just used the time-honoured 'twist to test the tension' method. I follow the old adage: they're better a little slack than too tight! I also swapped the belts on my old Ducs a number of times using the same trick, and I never had any problems with any of them. The Oz ran just great afterwards - although it was a little unnerving to press the starter for the first time!
Let us know if/when you fire 'er up! :thumb:
Steve
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Will do Steve
Still in bits at the moment just about same stage as the last picture, no reply from Mechanic yet :rolleyes:
I'll get back into it next week sometime
John
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Hi John. Just to say I finally got round to opening up the timing chest on my Oz. Check out what I found. Scuffing to the alloy gear-teeth, and side-to-side play on the oil-pump shaft. Hmm! Maybe I dodged a bullet when I stopped riding the bike!
I've e-mailed Joe Caruso hoping he can supply me with the larger steel gear. (I bought only the oil-pump & the lower gear from him previously, because they were all he had at the time). I'm planning on using the bike for the Classic TT in August, so my fingers are crossed!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEKT8Nz15DQ
ps. You'll notice this engine doesn't have the same 'phonic wheel' set-up that yours has. The pick-up is just bolted to the back of the large gear!
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Wow Steve
The scuffing on the cam gear was bad enough, but that oil pump gear is simply scary!! Good video glad you caught it and dodged a bullet for sure. If there is anything I can help with don't hesitate.
Let me know how you get on with Joe PM me
I've got the steel gears on mine & as you know I have the low pressure problem. I've measured both front and rear mains and they are within spec (just) both on the wide side but right on the limit. Bearing surfaces good and the front journal was also in spec but near the minimum (couldn't get a mic in to measure the rear). Both restricers in place and nothing out of the oridinary at all. It's looking like I'll just have to live with the low pressure as I'll be dammed if I could find anything.
Just waiting on some friction plates for the clutch (they were near the minimum so I thought may as well). The bike was VERY clean inside so the low mileage looks genuine & the plates probably didn't need replacing but what the hell.
While I've got the box off I'll put in the double row bearings and change the seals and O rings and anything else I find. Then it willl be a long weary road of assembling everything again and checking out the oil cooler and stat to make sure they are fine. Still debating about moving to a bigger oil cooler as I think it would be a good move, you've got a bigger one on yours I believe
Thanks again for posting very useful, Joe will love that video for his collection of all the things that can happen to these bikes
John
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It wouldn't have taken much longer.. :shocked: Yep, you dodged a bullet all right. :thumb:
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Weevee, how many miles on that engine?
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Weevee, how many miles on that engine?
Only 17,500mls, so far as I know. However, I imported the bike so I couldn't swear to it.
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Hadn't been following this thread for some reason. Well done John. Fantastic work.
Pete
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Hadn't been following this thread for some reason. Well done John. Fantastic work.
Pete
:embarrassed: Praise indeed thanks Pete, something you could do in an afternoon with your eyes closed :wink:
It's just a pity it's all been for nothing really as the bike is in bits to try to sort out the low pressure, which I just can't get to the bottom of.
After tearing it all apart I've read (on one of the other Guzzi forums) about a guy rebuilding a Hi Cam, his atention to detail was waaay higher than a dullard like myself could hope for. However while on there I noticed other posts, not many (but how many install gauges?), stating that they were seeing low pressures. One guy stating he never saw over 55psi no matter the revs and yet his bike still ran.
So in a week or 2 it will all be going back together, then I'm going to check and possibly replace the oil cooler with a bigger unit. My problem when I ran the bike was low (at least from my experience) pressure and climbing oil temperature. At first I thought the climbing temp was realted to the pressure but now I'm not so sure.
John
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Nice work John...out of interest and to address one of my biggest fears Pete...what is a max oil temperature before it gets buggered up ?I run 20/60 mineral and measure the temp with one of the dipstic thermometers.Bike is a roundhead
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Nice work John...out of interest and to address one of my biggest fears Pete...what is a max oil temperature before it gets buggered up ?I run 20/60 mineral and measure the temp with one of the dipstic thermometers.Bike is a roundhead
Hopefully Pete will come back with a figure for you.
All I can tell you is on my LM 1000 engine the bike runs cooler (another square head).
This will be first time this year (if we ever get a summer) that I have a dipstick temp gauge on the LM 1000, but in general it seems to run cooler than either my 1100 Sporti or Hi Cam engines, which makes sense (less power, therefore less heat to reject).
Just from rule of thumb I think somewhere between 90-100C even 105, after that it's getting pretty toasty. Both my 1100 and Hi Cam can hit these temps PDQ especailly at low RPM in traffic when trying to get out the city.
When I got the low pressure Hi temp problem with the Hi Cam I had 120C on the stick, by that time the oil pressure had dropped to below 10psi and the oil would probably have been thinner than water and on the point of simmering. Despite that, I was quick to kill the engine then let it cool, examination of the mains has shown no damage whatsoever, which is testament to the robustness of these blocks.
Up until now I've been running a 15/50 full synth in them. I wouldn't think going to a 20/50 would make an appreciable difference (but will listen if told different) as the viscosity difference between recommended and what I've run them on is at the cold end and all my problems are at the hot end.
John
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Were you getting low oil pressure before you fitted the new pump, John? And didn't fitting the new one make any measurable difference? I don't have a pressure gauge on mine, so I'm reliant on the cockpit light. I didn't ever see it flicker, though, so it never concerned me.
On the subject of cooling.. My bike ran very cool according to its temp. gauge. It struggled to top 80 deg., if I remember right. In fact after most runs I took the long route home just to lessen the risk of its oil emulsifying!
..and on another note: Did you think to measure the weight of the steel timing gears before you fitted them? I weighed them against the alloy ones I removed, and found they were around three times the weight! The small steel (pump) gear weighed 220g (..up from the 76g of the OEM item) - and the larger steel cam gear weighed close to 1kg (..up from the 330g of the OEM item). I welcome, of course, the peace-of-mind that comes with their extra strength, but this much extra weight will surely have a considerable effect on their rotational momentum, and may entirely negate the benefits of the Daytona's lightened flywheel. Food for thought!
Nonetheless, mine has now been re-assembled, so roll-on the month's end when I'll again be able to ride it. It's been a long time!
Steve
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Hi Steve
Don't know I never ran the bike on the old pump. I got it in the Winter and decided to install the steel gears and pump. That said after the hi temp, I took out the new pump and ran the orignal pump with a drill on the stationary engine and got very similar pressure readings
It's really interesting that your bike runs cool, of course it's an A kit at best and mine is a C so it's making a lot more heat.
Never did weigh the pump and gears that's news, of course I did know they were heavier, but didn't go to the trouble of weighing what you say makes complete sense to me. Personally though I'll take reliability over performance every time. To finish first you first have to finish and all that.
Glad it's now altogether and you can show it off at the IOM (take lots of pictures please).
My gearbox endcase got opened yesterday, was that liitle sucker on tight or what? Hardest yet!!!
Just going to replace the clutch and layshaft bearings with the proper items, some seals and O rings then put it back together. Only doing it because I'm in that far and now waiting on new mains from HMB (not cheap).
The mains were fine but both front and rear at max spec, I was just going to put them back, but then I thought I'd be kicking myself forever if I had not went the extra mile to replace them, just to see if it helps. If it doesn't I'll be pissed but sometimes you just need to roll the dice. You never know!!
Is your oil cooler the orignal item or did the previous owner install a larger unit? I remember it's relocated and if my old adled brain is not mistaken, it was a bigger cooler too. If I'm right I wonder why he did that?
Be interested to know, I'm sure I seen a picture a while back of it
John
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Hopefully the new mains you're fitting will bring up your oil pressure, John. Although I too have read elsewhere that many big-block Guzzi engines give extremely low pressure readings at idling speed - and not a great deal more as the revs climb!
Yes, my bike has a larger oil cooler - although this is an old picture: I've replaced the one shown with a new (similar-sized) Mocal item. Both had the bike running cool, though. Maybe the vented sump spacer helps?
I'm not too sure of its engine's spec. really. I did find these odd markings on the cam covers, that may relate to an alteration to its timing?? It's running a 'C' chip, and a less restrictive exhaust & collector - but until I strip it down further I'd only be guessing.
Steve
(https://i.postimg.cc/gnLQ9RgZ/IMG-0030.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gnLQ9RgZ) (https://i.postimg.cc/QH9yMbzR/chip.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QH9yMbzR) (https://i.postimg.cc/QHKS7kYL/numbers.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QHKS7kYL) (https://i.postimg.cc/2VLLXbqQ/sump.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2VLLXbqQ) (https://i.postimg.cc/4mMvsjqz/IMG-0042.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/4mMvsjqz)
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This is a timely subject for me, I'll be replacing the pump on a Centauro in the near future. thanks so much for the pictures, I havnt done one in a few years and this sure helps my feeble memory. He says a pump from an EV will bolt right in. If this is true, what about the gear ?, wasn't that a troublesome piece that should be replaced? The belts were done a few years ago and have maybe 2k miles on them, is there any reason to replace those if they look ok once I get in there?
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Steve
So your's is C kitted, wouldn't think that it would run a C chip without all the other bells & whistles. That is one beautiful machine
Mind telling me the MOCAL model you used was it from "Think Automotive" you got it from? I'm probably going to go this route myself
Did the bike come that way with the vented spacer?
In that case then all the internals from the Broad sump have been junked & the oil filter put back into the bottom of the pan Yes?
I see the pan has also been modified for the oil cooler.
If I was going "in extremis" and doing something similar I think I'd go Paul Daytona's route and install a MotoSpezial Vee sump then add a sandwich plate for the take off to the cooler. Expensive.......... ........ Certainly but it would avoid all the machining
I'm allso Ass-uming that its done away with the stat on the broad sump pipework too, so you have feed to the cooler all the time (not that it's really an issue the way miine generates heat)
John A
Who said an EV pump would fit?
Not me, I wouldn't know. The pump I've got is a DAS and I think Joe Caruso is now manufacturing his own if I'm not mistaken.
As far as the gears go look no further than Steve's video.............. .............Horror Show!!!!!
No probs on the pics if I ever get the time I'll do a write up but right now I have an RS engine and gearbox in pieces and desperately trying to get them back together
John
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The guy who own the bike said an EV pump will bolt tight in. So I don't know if it does until I get the parts in my hot little hands. where can I get a non-exploding gear?
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The guy who own the bike said an EV pump will bolt tight in. So I don't know if it does until I get the parts in my hot little hands. where can I get a non-exploding gear?
It's my bike John and it's me who took all the pictures and I'm pretty sure I never mentioned an EV pump because I have no clue if one would install or not
The pump is a Daes or Das unit AFAIK, Joe Caruso in England is the guy to speak to. There are probably others your side of the pond but I just don't know, perhaps Chuck could help.
Super guy and really knowledgable, he will not fleece you and doesn't make much money from it, BUT it won't be cheap.
PM me and I'll pass on his email (I just don't like posting it up on a public forum)
John
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It's my bike John and it's me who took all the pictures and I'm pretty sure I never mentioned an EV pump because I have no clue if one would install or not
John
No I meant the guy who owned the Centauro that I will be doing the work on said that an EV pump will work. Ill dig into that further and write the results here. Nice pics!
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This is the oil cooler I now have, John. Bought from Matt Lewis Racing: MOCAL 10 ROW 115MM ENGINE OIL COOLER -6JIC OC1107-6 ACV
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MOCAL-10-ROW-115MM-ENGINE-OIL-COOLER-6JIC-OC1107-6-ACV-/401447342144 (..it's cheaper from their website!)
Yes, the vented spacer came with the bike and the oil-feed mods were already done. The filter is in the sump. The sender you can see that's screwed into the back of the sump supplies current to an oil-temperature gauge mounted on the fairing (..I'd have put it with the cockpit clocks were I to have fitted it originally).
Steve
ps. The sump spacer was made by a German company named Finkentey-Klaumann. By coincidence, its headquarters is only a mile or two from where I purchased the bike! (..the rough cast areas running left to right are the venting tunnels).
(https://i.postimg.cc/474DgRvs/Magni-sump-spacer.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/474DgRvs)
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Thanks Steve
I'm assuming that the reason these mods were put in place was because PO might have been experiencing hi oil temp.
It seems a lot of work to go to and then the belt and braces of a gauge too. It's saying to me it was getting hot and action was taken to alleviate that, possibly after the C kit was installed.
Much appreciated
John
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John A
I happened to be onto Joe about something different and he mentioned the EV pump setup
Here is what he said we were also talking about a chain setup too, so that got thrown into the mix, no clue if you are planning that route or not
"The EV oil pump will fit his centauro
However, all he has to do is to fit the complete chain and sprockets and tensioner complete
as the alternative to the das oil pump and steel timing gears.
The thing is to make sure the oil pump has 16mm wide gears as fitted to the V11 bikes.
To get the higher output from the 16mm oil pump gears it spins faster due to the chain ratio
compared to the standard centauro set up which has 21 mm oil pump wide gears as standard.
I think that's quite a difference but it supplies enough pressure as many have fitted the v11 set up.
so if he fits the timing chain and sprockets he does not need to get any gears made.
chain and sprockets is the cheaper fix and then its up to him to decide."
Just thought I'd let you know
John
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Thanks, I told the Centauro owner that if he did anything to go with the complete set up from Joe. I wonder what the failure rate is, there seem to be a fair amount of Centauros with 50+ K miles on them. Thanks again, good info!