Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: ohiorider on March 10, 2018, 06:35:09 PM
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My 11 year old Mazda 6 V6 with standard tranny is approaching the end of its life. Not so much for mechanical reason, but because it is beginning to rust out around the rear wheel wells. To properly fix that problem would cost way more than the car is worth.
So, being into Italian bikes, i thought I'd check out FIAT. I was thinking "500X."
I googled "FIAT 500 Sales in the USA" and a few of the reports were, in a word, scary!
If you're curious, google it for yourself.
Bob
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Mazda or Subaru would both be excellent, long-term choices...if I was only going to need one for urban use, I'd be tempted to look at the Chevy Bolt...
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Last year we bought a used 500 pop. My wife drives the hell out of it. No problems at all. She's driven it from phoenix to Taos NM a couple of times. I'm curious about the 500 X Abarth.
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What�s scary about the numbers? Those cars are everywhere in Europe.
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If you have to have a car, get a Miata.. you only live once.
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I retired my 06 Mazda 6 wagon (V6) last December because it started leaking oil at all the locations that are expensive to get to - cam chain cover, oil pan (with the exhaust pipes right underneath) and possibly rear seal. Additionally, the body around the left rear wheel was starting to rust (maybe they all do that). I loved that car but throwing $4k or so into it made no sense. So, I feel your pain.
To me, cars are tools, but they also should be kind of fun to drive. So, practical and fun? I looked at Subarus and Toyotas but eventually found my self back at Mazda. I ended up with a 2015 Mazda 3 hatchback. I still miss the 6, but I do like the 3. The 3 is fun to throw around, but is not as "planted" on the interstate as the 6. The gas mileage on the 3 (even with the 2.5L engine) is much better on the 3L six cylinder 6.
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The Fiat sales numbers are truly an ongoing disaster. I'd be reluctant to buy one because the dealer support is tenuous at best. So far in 2018 Fiat sales have almost fallen off the table and that's on top of last year's disastrously poor sales. The only saving grace is that FCA is now letting Fiat dealers roll their franchises back under the umbrella of the mothership so the poor Fiat dealer can now spread his costs within the broader overhead of Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep and Ram.
With that being said, and given your interest in the 500X model, I'd suggest that you might find the Jeep Renegade an interesting alternative. As you probably know, the Renegade and 500X are built off the same platform and both come from the Melfi plant in Italy. So, you get your Italian flavoring in a Jeep-shaped recipe. I bought a Renegade about a year ago and specifically sought out the version with a manual transmission and the 1.4L turbo engine. It's a lot of fun to drive and avoids the whole issue of the 9-speed automatic transmission that has been troublesome for many Renegade (and Cherokee and Chrysler 200) owners. The turbo engine is really engaging to drive and the manual transmission adds to the fun. I've had absolutely no issues with the vehicle and wouldn't hesitate to do it all over again.
Compared to the 500X, the Renegade has an interior that feels roomier - especially in the front seats - and an exterior design whose boxy shape makes for better packaging. If you are shopping right now, Jeep also has some crazy good incentives on leftover 2017 models. Models with the manual transmission (only the Sport and Latitude trim levels) are thin on the ground so you'll have to use one of the many search functions to locate one. The Jeep site will let you use a vehicle locator and places like cargurus.com have a similar search function. Just crank in the year you want, specify drivetrain and such and see what turns up.
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Lots of cool vehicles out there. Why not just go from dealer to dealer and test drive them all?
I was shopping for a truck last summer. Test drove most all the full size and mid size trucks. Ended up with a Honda Ridgeline. Wasn't on my radar originally but after testing them all I decided this truck was right for me at this time. No regrets.
Pete
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I bought a cat last week, to keep the goose company.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/bFdWCn/BA6_C1_CAD_1_A4_D_4_C35_8_C8_E_94_EF6104118_C.jpg) (http://ibb.co/bFdWCn)
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Used Buick century for under $3k?.....park it and only drive it if it rains or snows....
Take the other $40k you've saved and..I don't know,...pick up a few two wheelers? Garage Majal? Road Racing? Around the world? Show winner? Rusty chopper?...Egad, anything but a car, my friend...stop! Don't do it! .... :popcorn:
(http://thumb.ibb.co/fQCphn/image.jpg) (http://ibb.co/fQCphn)
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2018 VW GTI, still available in 6 speed manual if you prefer. Practical, refined and compared to most cars...more fun than a barrel of monkeys to drive. 👍
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Used Buick century for under $3k?.....park it and only drive it if it rains or snows....
Take the other $40k you've saved and..I don't know,...pick up a few two wheelers? Garage Majal? Road Racing? Around the world? Show winner? Rusty chopper?...Egad, anything but a car, my friend...stop! Don't do it! .... :popcorn:
That's the greatest idea yet ..... ! :thumb:
We've bought our last new car, 6 years ago. Too many other neat things to do out there rather than sink it into auto depreciation or car payments. Tear yourself away from the herd!
Lannis
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Get a two or three yr old Subaru Legacy, save on the initial new car depreciation. Similar class as your Mazda 6, maybe a good choice for Ohio winters as well.
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We have a Fiat 500L and a Jeep Renegade. Like both of them with no issues to date.
The 500L is the wagon version of the 500X. Got it new ~ 16K out the door (~$5 K off list) about 2 1/2 years ago. Has heated seats, driving lights, navigation, turbo, auto. 40K trouble free miles. You see the 500L all over Europe.
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funny.
Yesterday, I went to the car show and drove Fiat 124, Fiat 500 Abarth, Chevy Bolt and Camaro.
I know someone will get made if I tell you what I think.
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My wife got a Fiat 124 sport and she loves it more style than the Miata also handles better. she gets mad when I cal it the Fiatta.
all around a good car no issues after a year!
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Bob
Just get the Abarth - more fun while on four wheels, and has been said they are all over Europe...
Mark
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I'll be the first to be a non-conformist. Personally I have no use for economy size cars. Some are fun to drive at first, but that quickly goes away when you need some real performance and many of them don't have it. I'm a little over 6' and don't care for cramming in and out of a vehicle, or hitting my head on the roof line while doing so. I have a need for something larger more comfortable, that has the ability to haul more than just people, and the ability to tow a couple of different size trailers. For me trucks have fit my lifestyle for the last 30 years. When we need economy (thankfully not very often), we take the wifes Mazda CX5. I cant stand the thing. The last new vehicle that I purchased was this 2011 GMC Sierra 4x4. Other than fuel mileage, and that's a easy trade off for me, its been the perfect vehicle and never been in the shop other than regular maintenance items. I plan on driving it until the wheels fall off.
(https://s20.postimg.org/yu3s1tvtp/20180108_170815_AE.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/hgthmz0ih/)
(https://s20.postimg.org/xrtljgshp/20170616_123648_AE.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/7w9v09qnt/)
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I have never bought a new vehicle. The last 4 wheeler I bought was a 96 Safari AWD van in 1999. Still have it. At 15-y-o and 200 miles, this 2003 EVT I'm scheduled to see is the "newest" vehicle I've ever considered buying.
In today's world I'm not sure I know what "real performance" is. I know my 1200 VW busses weren't performance machines, but I can't imagine any modern vehicle not having the power to get out of their own way. How much more does one need in a daily driver?
I have occasional glimmers of a 1200 2-valve engine in a Fiat 500. That would be fun.
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Subs seem to be a popular car here, and I have heard mostly good things about them, but their current add campaign turns me off. Love? Really? I couldn't bring my self to drive one, if only for that reason.
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Bob
Just get the Abarth - more fun while on four wheels, and has been said they are all over Europe...
Mark
Good point, Mark. Looked at Euro sales for the brand. They sell a bunch of cars across Europe, but the US market, today being focused primarily on SUVs, hasn't warmed up to them. I actually like the looks of the 500X inside and out better than its companion, the Jeep Renegade, built in the same plant, and essentially 500X under the skin. I've driven a buddy's 500 Abarth, and that little roller skate is a blast in the twisties and hills of W Va.
Bob
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The Fiat sales numbers are truly an ongoing disaster. I'd be reluctant to buy one because the dealer support is tenuous at best. So far in 2018 Fiat sales have almost fallen off the table and that's on top of last year's disastrously poor sales. The only saving grace is that FCA is now letting Fiat dealers roll their franchises back under the umbrella of the mothership so the poor Fiat dealer can now spread his costs within the broader overhead of Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep and Ram.
With that being said, and given your interest in the 500X model, I'd suggest that you might find the Jeep Renegade an interesting alternative. As you probably know, the Renegade and 500X are built off the same platform and both come from the Melfi plant in Italy. So, you get your Italian flavoring in a Jeep-shaped recipe. I bought a Renegade about a year ago and specifically sought out the version with a manual transmission and the 1.4L turbo engine. It's a lot of fun to drive and avoids the whole issue of the 9-speed automatic transmission that has been troublesome for many Renegade (and Cherokee and Chrysler 200) owners. The turbo engine is really engaging to drive and the manual transmission adds to the fun. I've had absolutely no issues with the vehicle and wouldn't hesitate to do it all over again.
Compared to the 500X, the Renegade has an interior that feels roomier - especially in the front seats - and an exterior design whose boxy shape makes for better packaging. If you are shopping right now, Jeep also has some crazy good incentives on leftover 2017 models. Models with the manual transmission (only the Sport and Latitude trim levels) are thin on the ground so you'll have to use one of the many search functions to locate one. The Jeep site will let you use a vehicle locator and places like cargurus.com have a similar search function. Just crank in the year you want, specify drivetrain and such and see what turns up.
Good report, LeRoy. Thanks.
Bob
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I bought a Renegade about a year ago and specifically sought out the version with a manual transmission and the 1.4L turbo engine. It's a lot of fun to drive and avoids the whole issue of the 9-speed automatic transmission that has been troublesome for many Renegade (and Cherokee and Chrysler 200) owners. T
LeRoy,
What are the issues with the nine-speed trans? I've heard mention of "problems" but no specifics.
Just wondering.
Thanks!
Carlo
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Kia has upgraded their quality in their line. You might want to check out their line and Hyundai's. Just a thought.
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What are the issues with the nine-speed trans? I've heard mention of "problems" but no specifics.
The problems seem to be related to two key issues: engine/transmission software calibration and the complexity of the 9-speed transmission itself. Customer complaints focus on things like:
- shift quality (roughness, unexpected noise, harsh shifting - especially the 2-3 shift)
- shift speed (slow shifting, hesitation, delayed up- and down-shifts, not shifting when it was anticipated)
- unexpected response to throttle inputs (either sudden shifting, not shifting, or shifting unexpectedly)
- failure to engage a gear, false neutral, or inadvertent shifting into neutral
FCA has issued many software updates on all the affected models for the transmission and powertrains with which it is mated; some vehicles seem to respond better than others to the updates. There has also been at least one recall dealing with the inadvertent neutral issue.
On the technical side, the transmission design is novel and it incorporates both dog clutches and traditional clutch packs to shift gears. The shift behavior of these two types of clutches differs in terms of both speed and shift quality. In the 9-speed the 1-2, 2-3, 3-4, 5-6, 6-7, 8-9 shifts use clutch packs while the 4-5 and 7-8 shifts use dog clutches. Speaking generally, traditional clutch packs allow a bit of slippage for smoother gear-to-gear shifts while dog clutches take longer to engage and do so less smoothly. Even when everything is working optimally, the 4-5 and 7-8 shifts feel different than the others and are different than customers are used to from conventional automatic transmissions. The differences in shift feel, timing and quality affect up- as well as down-shifts.
Any time a transmission calls attention to itself with unexpected or different-than-expected behavior, customers may feel unsettled. If you combine unusual shift behavior with the software and powertrain calibration issues, there are a lot of ways in which this transmission can cause customer dissatisfaction. Some of the issues are largely perception but some complaints - including those covered in the recall - are clearly safety issues.
Many reviews and consumer comments indicate that complaints are more frequent with the lower-powered engines. For example, on the Jeep Cherokee, the V6 engine and it's power and torque, seems to be better matched to the 9-speed than the 2.4L 4-cylinder. The Renegade and Chrysler 200 have especially high levels of complaints for the 9-speed combined with the 2.4L engine.
To be fair, FCA isn't the only company that has had difficulty with this transmission. It is a licensed product designed by ZF and used by Land Rover, Jaguar, Honda and Acura, as well as on a variety of Jeep, Chrysler and Fiat models.
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The problems seem to be related to two key issues: engine/transmission software calibration and the complexity of the 9-speed transmission itself. Customer complaints focus on things like:
- shift quality (roughness, unexpected noise, harsh shifting - especially the 2-3 shift)
- shift speed (slow shifting, hesitation, delayed up- and down-shifts, not shifting when it was anticipated)
- unexpected response to throttle inputs (either sudden shifting, not shifting, or shifting unexpectedly)
- failure to engage a gear, false neutral, or inadvertent shifting into neutral
FCA has issued many software updates on all the affected models for the transmission and powertrains with which it is mated; some vehicles seem to respond better than others to the updates. There has also been at least one recall dealing with the inadvertent neutral issue.
On the technical side, the transmission design is novel and it incorporates both dog clutches and traditional clutch packs to shift gears. The shift behavior of these two types of clutches differs in terms of both speed and shift quality. In the 9-speed the 1-2, 2-3, 3-4, 5-6, 6-7, 8-9 shifts use clutch packs while the 4-5 and 7-8 shifts use dog clutches. Speaking generally, traditional clutch packs allow a bit of slippage for smoother gear-to-gear shifts while dog clutches take longer to engage and do so less smoothly. Even when everything is working optimally, the 4-5 and 7-8 shifts feel different than the others and are different than customers are used to from conventional automatic transmissions. The differences in shift feel, timing and quality affect up- as well as down-shifts.
Any time a transmission calls attention to itself with unexpected or different-than-expected behavior, customers may feel unsettled. If you combine unusual shift behavior with the software and powertrain calibration issues, there are a lot of ways in which this transmission can cause customer dissatisfaction. Some of the issues are largely perception but some complaints - including those covered in the recall - are clearly safety issues.
Many reviews and consumer comments indicate that complaints are more frequent with the lower-powered engines. For example, on the Jeep Cherokee, the V6 engine and it's power and torque, seems to be better matched to the 9-speed than the 2.4L 4-cylinder. The Renegade and Chrysler 200 have especially high levels of complaints for the 9-speed combined with the 2.4L engine.
To be fair, FCA isn't the only company that has had difficulty with this transmission. It is a licensed product designed by ZF and used by Land Rover, Jaguar, Honda and Acura, as well as on a variety of Jeep, Chrysler and Fiat models.
Sheesh, Bob, what a great reply. Thanks very much for all of this really good info.
I own a Cherokee with the V6 + 9-speed and the only real transmission complaint has been sluggish downshift going around corners on occasion. Coincidentally, I had the car in for an oil change a couple of weeks back, and there was a transmission software update that was performed. I'm not sure how much effect it had, but the car certainly doesn't run worse :)
I wondered about all the fuss, but your comment about the V6 being less impacted is probably the answer I sought.
About the only real complaint I have is the @#$%^ auto-stop function that can't be defeated as a default. I can turn it off, but have to do it every time I start the engine.
Again, thanks!
Best,
Carlo
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We have a Fiat 500L and a Jeep Renegade. Like both of them with no issues to date.
The 500L is the wagon version of the 500X. Got it new ~ 16K out the door (~$5 K off list) about 2 1/2 years ago. Has heated seats, driving lights, navigation, turbo, auto. 40K trouble free miles. You see the 500L all over Europe.
Hey, Don! Long time no see!
Hello to Deb.
C
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2018 VW GTI, still available in 6 speed manual if you prefer. Practical, refined and compared to most cars...more fun than a barrel of monkeys to drive. [emoji106]
I agree with the VW recommendation. We've had nothing but VWS in our family for at least the past decade and they are not only great cars but have lasted well. Just bought an All track wagon last summer, we love that car - 30 mpg, 4 wheel drive, tons of space, rides really well yet is still fun to drive. Traded my GTI on it because my wife's 2007 Jetta Wolfsburg that we bought new is worth nothing but looks like a new car. Driving that one almost for free. Currently there are 4 vw wagons in the family; can't beat long roofs for practicality and you can out your kayak on the roof. Can't do that with your Guzzi.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
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Sorry to hear your Mazda 6 is giving up the ghost early. My '04 6 wagon with MTX has just under 150K. Against any advice I'd give to anyone else about putting $2000 into a $2000 car, I rebuilt the suspension and put on new tires, doing all the work myself except for the tires and hope to get another 50K out of it. Living in central Texas, rust isn't an issue. Lots of great choice out there, I don't envy you the chore of checking them all out or the sales people you'll have to deal with, and I used to be one.
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Sorry to hear your Mazda 6 is giving up the ghost early. My '04 6 wagon with MTX has just under 150K. Against any advice I'd give to anyone else about putting $2000 into a $2000 car, I rebuilt the suspension and put on new tires, doing all the work myself except for the tires and hope to get another 50K out of it. Living in central Texas, rust isn't an issue. Lots of great choice out there, I don't envy you the chore of checking them all out or the sales people you'll have to deal with, and I used to be one.
I suspect you'll get to 200K miles with your '04. My Mazda6 (2007) has been one of the best cars I've owned. A shame it's so expensive to repair/replace the rusted areas around the rear wheel wells. In their 'wisdom,' Mazda decided to drop the 3.0 liter v6, and only had a v6 option in the later, larger 6's for a year or two. They will be coming out in 2018 with a turbo 4, but I think it'll only be available in the top of the line model. I've had 4 cars built in a Mazda plant (89 Ford Probe, 93 MX6 v6, 96 Miata, and my current Mazda6.) They've all been good cars, and fun to drive to boot!
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From 2005- 2012, and 70,000+ miles, I drove a 2005 Hyundai Santa Fe front wheel drive with a V6 and auto tranny. Problems- none. Work performed- routine scheduled, and one tire change. Driven in MN winters with more salt than in all of the Pacific Ocean (it seems), zero body corrosion.
From 2012 to present, I've driven a 2012 Kia Soul. Problems, part of the LED radio display went out when fairly young, and this past fall at the 60,000 service one of the back brake calipers was starting to freeze, so they did a back brake job only, while the fronts are still good for about 40% pad life. I'll drive this car until my planned replacement of late 2019, by then it will have over 80,000. Replacing because, not including motorcycles, we are a one-car family and I only want to run a rock solid, dependable car, trading it away while still healthy. Oh, zero corrosion.
In 2019, I see myself going back to a Hyundai Santa Fe, or maybe its Kia cousin. I want a real automatic transmission, not a CVT, so I can tow a motorcycle on a trailer. Not a lot of non-CVT choices out there, kills Suburu for my needs. I won't tow with a CVT, regardless of what "they" say- in my mind, a CVT is not a tow-worthy transmission, and tranny shops will agree. I would wholly endorse Kia or Hyundai sedans or SUVs to you, new or used. I know several long term owners of each brand... problems are so rare as to not even be considered.
I also own a summer-only fun car, a 2017 Fiat 124 Spider Classica. My God, is this car a blast to drive! 8000 trouble free miles, she'll be waking up from her winter nap in a few weeks. Fiat did such a nice job re-styling the MX5 Miata for the Fiat badge (and its "modern classic" Euro theme), and the turbo 1.4L, although almost entirely stock on my car, has a great many available upgrades to make it stupid powerful (for a 2400lb car), along with a lot of suspension options to turn it from a roadster into a truly capable sports car. If you're into that kind of thing. The Fiat 1.4 turbo is proven reliable in several formats, incl. Jeep, and Mazda built a great chassis and transmission (auto and stick) for it. It is a great package, regardless of what a clueless press and other naysayers blab about with little justification.
Lastly... come on, honestly and objectively, how many truly bad cars are rolling off the production line anymore? Even our worst of today is a country mile ahead in quality over cars from up through about 1990, maybe even later.
Good luck in your quest.
Steve.
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If I was to buy new...the warranty that covers Kia & Hyundai vehicles would clinch it for me. Since I don't buy new, it's academic. :grin:
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Lastly... come on, honestly and objectively, how many truly bad cars are rolling off the production line anymore? Even our worst of today is a country mile ahead in quality over cars from up through about 1990, maybe even later.
Good luck in your quest.
Steve.
How very true. There is not 1 car/bike/truck/shampoo or laundry soap that meets everyone's requirements. I for one am glad that it is so hard to make a choice..so many good ones out there.
When we were shopping for a new car we decided on the Subaru Outback. It was right for us. Other folks have different requirements that the Subie wouldn't be right for. Decide what you need the vehicle to do, narrow down your choices and have fun choosing from there.
As far as ad campaigns (hi Bad chad!!!!!) I don't let them sway my decisions. Just like when Guzzi had the guy hugging a V11 Breva...thought it was odd but still ride them today.
Of course I have been known to pat my V7II on the tank every now and then!!
Ride safe and often,
Jeff
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That 500 Cabrio sure looks like it'd be a lot of fun, particularly in the Summer.
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I drove a Fiat 500, 'fun little car but at 6'2" I felt like I was driving a go-cart. To me, cars are soulless appliances which take away money for more meaningful pursuits, like motorcycles. In the city I use a Prius C which in the 120 thousand miles that I have had it has needed gas (45-50MPH so not much), oil changes (every 10 thousand miles, 2 engines=less wear on the gas one) and a set of tires, that's it. Little cars in the city are a lot easier to deal with. Down at the farm I keep an old truck, handy for hauling things, like bringing the new V7iii home!
[img width= height= alt=dVpMgd.jpg]https://vgy.me/dVpMgd.jpg[/img]
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I drove a Fiat 500, 'fun little car but at 6'2" I felt like I was driving a go-cart. To me, cars are soulless appliances which take away money for more meaningful pursuits, like motorcycles. In the city I use a Prius C which in the 120 thousand miles that I have had it has needed gas (45-50MPH so not much), oil changes (every 10 thousand miles, 2 engines=less wear on the gas one) and a set of tires, that's it. Little cars in the city are a lot easier to deal with. Down at the farm I keep an old truck, handy for hauling things, like bringing the new V7iii home!
[img width= height= alt=dVpMgd.jpg]https://vgy.me/dVpMgd.jpg[/img]
Nice choice in truck and the bike!