Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: guzziownr on March 11, 2018, 09:41:42 AM
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Like, I don't believe it, that kind of unbelievable:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvaM7_gZUUg
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maybe that's metric HP?
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it's just the green ones that are faster
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All it takes is $$$$$
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All it takes is $$$$$
I guess, but what does a flux capacitor cost?
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All it takes is $$$$$
Hmm , so they are literally burning money ? Who knew ? Maybe that's how a certain West coast guy is getting 230 HP out of that 1400 :laugh:
Dusty
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it's just the green ones that are faster
True.. true. :smiley: Except for the dark ones, of course.
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I wish there was more info on what was done to the engine. If it’s big bore with head work and cams I think the horsepower numbers could be correct. Just saying....
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Maybe...I wonder if the torque curve had already started to fall off big-time...and, will it make that on a different dyno?
The 'big reveal' of the HP figure was kind of abrupt...just sayin' :cool:
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Hmm , so they are literally burning money ? Who knew ? Maybe that's how a certain West coast guy is getting 230 HP out of that 1400 :laugh:
Dusty
I thought he posted 140+, but the next one w/blower is said to be 275
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I wish there was more info on what was done to the engine. If it’s big bore with head work and cams I think the horsepower numbers could be correct. Just saying....
You may be able to find out if you go to his blog---- GuzziRacer.com
Vid is from 2010
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two words:
bull shit
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I thought he posted 140+, but the next one w/blower is said to be 275
Yeah , 275 , which of course seems a bit inflated also :shocked: :rolleyes:
I am having a hard time believing an honest 123 HP from a 2 valve 1100 that remains remotely streetable , maybe with NOS it would be realistic for short periods .
Dusty
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Every Dyno is different also. My friends Griso 1100 is putting out 112 at the rear.
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I recall that the Swallower Guzzi team in Holland was getting a number not unlike this from a full race non-streetable 2V engine in the 1990s... I also recall them explaining to me that it used to break crankshafts repetitively.
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dog-year horsepower
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Perhaps someone has found Enzo's (remember him?) bike with it's homebuilt Cobra exhaust. :grin:
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Tiresome
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I guess because of the low sales numbers with Moto Guzzi that there is very little interest in quality performance companies making hot rod parts. I own a Hayabusa and the hod rod parts made in the states is endless and the same for HD products. It would be interesting to see a company like APE or Vance and Hines show interest in making Guzzi parts. With a performance crank and rods , big bore etc I think these engines would rip!!
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It's a one litre air cooled twin that in standard trim is taken close to the limit of reliability producing 75-ish HP. People can claim anything they like but the truth is somewhat different.
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It's a one litre air cooled twin that in standard trim is taken close to the limit of reliability producing 75-ish HP. People can claim anything they like but the truth is somewhat different.
If I could 10000 miles out of a 125 HP Guzzi I would be pumped, I’m not to concerned about long term reliability just want a Guzzi that could do second gear power band wheelies and entertain me. If all I wanted was outright reliability I wouldn’t own a Guzzi, I just happen to like the look and the personality. I still think a quality racing company with time and development could engineer a fix to all the problems that happen when you juice it up.
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People have been 'Juicing them up' for forty years. You won't get 120+ HP out of a 2V Guzzi. If you want 2nd gear power wheelies talk to chuck about his Scura but it ain't producing anywhere near 120hp.
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The big secret is dyno calibration.
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I hate when this happens
(https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.corvetteforum.com-vbulletin/1280x960/80-0516151352_fd1344cfa481b8d0047015056275f3ffaa086dde.jpg)
(https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.corvetteforum.com-vbulletin/800x600/80-im002168_190639d69cdb91cd4cb6013a23d8a05750caab95.jpg)
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Ooops.
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I thought he posted 140+, but the next one w/blower is said to be 275
I think the proper response is "liar, liar, pants on fire".
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maybe that's metric HP?
More like Shetland ponies.
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Anything is possible if you toss enough money at it, but I wouldn't expect it tp last too long.
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It's very easy to get a computer screen so say what you want it to. Just as it's easy to get a dyno to read higher or lower just by changing the info you feed into it.
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Did I post up the dyno charts for the 1400 here? Can't remember? Made 98. Something at the rear wheel. Torque curve is not a curve. It's a 'Flat'. We're really happy with that, but there again we aren't full of shit.......
Pete
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The big secret is dyno calibration.
:1:
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:1:
Anything is possible if you toss enough money at it, but I wouldn't expect it tp last too long.
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I'll say this. If the dyno isn't bogus, it did a pretty impressive top gear roll on..
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Here is the dyne chart on my T-3.
1,000cc kit
V-7 Sport cam
36mm round slides
Heads ported and polished
S&W valve springs
K&N filters
Although not a high performance engine it pulls well. Don't know where you would find an additional 70+ HP.
GliderJohn
(http://thumb.ibb.co/c7ZYA7/DSCN0483.jpg) (http://ibb.co/c7ZYA7)
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I'll say this. If the dyno isn't bogus, it did a pretty impressive top gear roll on..
I used to have an old boss who often said: "There is no substitute for horsepower..."
However, at the end of the day...90+ HP on this Guzzi is plenty for me... :thumb: :1: :cool:
(http://thumb.ibb.co/cYkFq7/DSC_0001.jpg) (http://ibb.co/cYkFq7)
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Here is the dyne chart on my T-3.
1,000cc kit
V-7 Sport cam
36mm round slides
Heads ported and polished
S&W valve springs
K&N filters
Although not a high performance engine it pulls well. Don't know where you would find an additional 70+ HP.
GliderJohn
(http://thumb.ibb.co/c7ZYA7/DSCN0483.jpg) (http://ibb.co/c7ZYA7)
That's one helluva dip @ 3100.
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The 1000 cc push rod gas naked frame record at Bonneville is held by a Guzzi, team Subtle Crowbar I believe...The record is 151 mph...From my experience with land speed racing ,150 MPH a naked frame bike requires at least 100 rear wheel hp maybe a bit more with the Guzzi frontal area...I believe it's a two valve??, of course it's a racing bike and likely has a load of money into engine development..
(http://www.teamsubtlecrowbar.pitpilot.com/bonneville/bonneville2008_files/image020.jpg)
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The 1000 cc push rod gas naked frame record at Bonneville is held by a Guzzi, team Subtle Crowbar I believe...The record is 151 mph...From my experience with land speed racing ,150 MPH a naked frame bike requires at least 100 rear wheel hp maybe a bit more with the Guzzi frontal area...I believe it's a two valve??, of course it's a racing bike and likely has a load of money into engine development..
(http://www.teamsubtlecrowbar.pitpilot.com/bonneville/bonneville2008_files/image020.jpg)
"Bill Ross and the legendary Mandello Meteor!"
(http://thumb.ibb.co/hcza7n/Screen_Shot_2018_03_12_at_10_01_38_AM.png) (http://ibb.co/hcza7n)
cheap image hosting (http://imgbb.com/)
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100% pure bullshit. These guys are professionals, no fans or exhaust vents.
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I still think a quality racing company with time and development could engineer a fix to all the problems that happen when you juice it up.
Problem is like the estimable Mr. Roper points out that some of the best racing engineering minds have been twiddling the Guzzi lump since the late 60s, and the limits are very well known with fully � built � bleeding � edge two valve motors never reaching more than 100-110 (relative) Dynojet WHP. 2V Guzzi engines have too many severe design limitations to reach ultra high outputs; reaching 100 WHP per liter is a stellar result for any ca. 1,000 cc, two valve, pushrod, air cooled engine in any case.
Kristian
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(http://thumb.ibb.co/hcza7n/Screen_Shot_2018_03_12_at_10_01_38_AM.png)
That's a ground pounder right there.. :thumb:
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Problem is like the estimable Mr. Roper points out that some of the best racing engineering minds have been twiddling the Guzzi lump since the late 60s, and the limits are very well known with fully � built � bleeding � edge two valve motors never reaching more than 100-110 (relative) Dynojet WHP. 2V Guzzi engines have too many severe design limitations to reach ultra high outputs; reaching 100 WHP per liter is a stellar result for any ca. 1,000 cc, two valve, pushrod, air cooled engine in any case.
Kristianwith
With 10 RWHP per 100cc a 1300cc motor should be able to produce 130 RWHP. With modern slipper piston technology your reciprocating weight should be the same or less. NASCAR spins their push rod engines to 9000 RPM with heavier valves than we would run in a Guzzi. So 130 HP seems plausible.
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With 10 RWHP per 100cc a 1300cc motor should be able to produce 130 RWHP. With modern slipper piston technology your reciprocating weight should be the same or less. NASCAR spins their push rod engines to 9000 RPM with heavier valves than we would run in a Guzzi. So 130 HP seems plausible.
An Evo Sportster at 1350ccwith the right parts can make a reliable 120-130 rear wheel HP for a cost of about 6 grand ...
It's a breathing limitation primarily.. not the weight of moving parts...Nascar makes about 850HP from 5700 cc's...Without any rules the engines might crowd 950 hp for short periods..Take away 12 % for RWHP....Harley XR750 race engine can get 90-95 flywheel hp...And these are not 10 percent optimistic Dynojet power readings.. Nascar and Harley have had constant development and tuning from the best in the business with high budgets...
New DOHC 1000 cc sport bikes make 160-200 hp with full emissions equipment and stock mufflers.....
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Yeah , but Nascar motors and XR 750's need a new crankshaft after a couple of races :shocked: Those engines run ridiculous cam profiles , and compression ratios of 14:1 requiring 110 Oct fuel . One Cup car engine costs about $70K to build , and lasts maybe 1,000 miles , and the last time I checked , an XR crank was $15K . Not practical for a production street engine .
Dusty
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Yeah , but Nascar motors and XR 750's need a new crankshaft after a couple of races :shocked: Those engines run ridiculous cam profiles , and compression ratios of 14:1 requiring 110 Oct fuel . One Cup car engine costs about $70K to build , and lasts maybe 1,000 miles , and the last time I checked , an XR crank was $15K . Not practical for a production street engine .
Dusty
Yes it's expensive and short lived when you're at the edge ..Nascar and some drag engines have over 500 PSI valve spring pressure and open the valves to .850 inch. Can you run your Guzzi at 9000 rpm for several hours without shortening the engine life? :evil:..What is impressive is the NASCAR specific fuel consumption of about .35 pounds per HP per hour, that rivals Diesel engines of a lot less power..
My Triumph land speed racers make 62 flywheel hp/650 cc's and crankshaft life is maybe 2 hours at maximum power...
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Yes it's expensive and short lived when you're at the edge ..Nascar and some drag engines have over 500 PSI valve spring pressure and open the valves to .850 inch. Can you run your Guzzi at 9000 rpm for several hours without shortening the engine life? :evil:..What is impressive is the NASCAR specific fuel consumption of about .35 pounds per HP per hour, that rivals Diesel engines of a lot less power..
My Triumph land speed racers make 62 flywheel hp/650 cc's and crankshaft life is maybe 2 hours at maximum power...
I'm not even sure those Nitro burning supercharged engines can even be completely understood in normal term :shocked:
Nascar engines are pretty amazing , millions of dollars have been spent on flow benches getting them to breathe , and modern cam profiles are so perfect . I was recently reading about the mostly small block Chevies and Fords being used in vintage sports racers (USRRC/Can/Am) that are based on the 60's small block engines . They are now making in the neighborhood of 700 HP from 5 liters , nearly twice what they made in 1970 , all due to modern cam profiles and cylinder head port shapes . Freaky .
Dusty
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Rough Edge,
We got that same 973 cc Lemans 1000 up to 159mph on gas in 2011. I`ve never seen anything close to 100 hp at the rear wheel on the Super Flo dyno we used. Skeptical as well, just no way to get that kind of airflow/hp without forced induction , Nitrous , or ridiculous rpm.
Bill Ross
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Rough Edge,
We got that same 973 cc Lemans 1000 up to 159mph on gas in 2011. I`ve never seen anything close to 100 hp at the rear wheel on the Super Flo dyno we used. Skeptical as well, just no way to get that kind of airflow/hp without forced induction , Nitrous , or ridiculous rpm.
Bill Ross
I'd think that should pretty much settle it. :grin: Hiya Bill!
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The laws of physics are a hard taskmaster and don't respond to bribes.
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I did a little looking around but haven't been able to find really high 2V dyno numbers as produced by (dare I write his name) Charlie Rice and by other BoTT people in Europe. I did find what is probably the benchmark Guzzi V-twin power overall in former racing glory - 140 RWHP in fairly reliable racing form, from the Raceco 4V/cylinder Daytona.
https://www.autoyas.com/XX/Unknown/1515218955450845/Raceco-UK
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Rough Edge,
We got that same 973 cc Lemans 1000 up to 159mph on gas in 2011. I`ve never seen anything close to 100 hp at the rear wheel on the Super Flo dyno we used. Skeptical as well, just no way to get that kind of airflow/hp without forced induction , Nitrous , or ridiculous rpm.
Bill Ross
What power did you see on the Superflow? I also use a Superflow dyno for testing, it's 10 percent lower than a Dynojet..
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That figure is about as legit as his approach to Engine cooling.....
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An Evo Sportster at 1350ccwith the right parts can make a reliable 120-130 rear wheel HP for a cost of about 6 grand ...
It's a breathing limitation primarily.. not the weight of moving parts...Nascar makes about 850HP from 5700 cc's...Without any rules the engines might crowd 950 hp for short periods..Take away 12 % for RWHP....Harley XR750 race engine can get 90-95 flywheel hp...And these are not 10 percent optimistic Dynojet power readings.. Nascar and Harley have had constant development and tuning from the best in the business with high budgets...
New DOHC 1000 cc sport bikes make 160-200 hp with full emissions equipment and stock mufflers.....
The words Evo, 130hp and reliable don't belong in the same sentence. Air cooled twins don't exceed 1hp(rear wheel) per cubic inch as a rule. The flame speed of gas is a constant. To get more power you need to either change the velocity(hemi heads, forced induction, etc) to increase the flame front or add more air. Twins just run out of room and don't have enough valve area to remain remotely reliable at 1hp per 10cc's. They obviously can in race applications and you're extremely knowledgeable in that area but on the street and over the long haul a 1350cc Harley putting out 130hp is a time bomb . It will go BANG at any moment.
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The words Evo, 130hp and reliable don't belong in the same sentence. Air cooled twins don't exceed 1hp(rear wheel) per cubic inch as a rule. The flame speed of gas is a constant. To get more power you need to either change the velocity(hemi heads, forced induction, etc) to increase the flame front or add more air. Twins just run out of room and don't have enough valve area to remain remotely reliable at 1hp per 10cc's. They obviously can in race applications and you're extremely knowledgeable in that area but on the street and over the long haul a 1350cc Harley putting out 130hp is a time bomb . It will go BANG at any moment.
I suggest you go the XL Forum and have a look.....Look at the speed records look at the engine builds and talk to the guys...later model Sportsters with the improved crankshafts are capable of 120 plus HP and are not a time bomb...Obviously any mass produced engine that is modified will have a shorter engine life...Not really a bang at any moment when properly built...
I am less knowledgeable than people give me credit for......I'm not a talented engine builder...I simply find the opponents weakness and go for the kill...The weakness was their engines were fussy and too sensitive to various factors when at the track..I built a reliable reasonably powerful engine that was more tolerant of changes in air density...Tuned on the dyno...and with no more that one jetting change comes off the trailer ,sets a new class record and we go party.....I have to give credit to my good friend who rides the bike... At 130 plus MPH, on a vibrating naked frame Triumph ,he is posting on bare steel foot pegs to get his ass slightly higher than his helmet for best airflow and speed...
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I suggest you go the XL Forum and have a look.....Look at the speed records look at the engine builds and talk to the guys...later model Sportsters with the improved crankshafts are capable of 120 plus HP and are not a time bomb...Obviously any mass produced engine that is modified will have a shorter engine life...Not really a bang at any moment when properly built...
I am less knowledgeable than people give me credit for......I'm not a talented engine builder...I simply find the opponents weakness and go for the kill...The weakness was their engines were fussy and too sensitive to various factors when at the track..I built a reliable reasonably powerful engine that was more tolerant of changes in air density...Tuned on the dyno...and with no more that one jetting change comes off the trailer ,sets a new class record and we go party.....I have to give credit to my good friend who rides the bike... At 130 plus MPH, on a vibrating naked frame Triumph ,he is posting on bare steel foot pegs to get his ass slightly higher than his helmet for best airflow and speed...
IMHO, a motorcycle built for racing and one for street riding shouldn't be compared. We don't compare top fuel dragsters to Honda Civics so we shouldn't with bikes either. Street ridden Stage 3 EVO's usually put out 85-95hp, have lumpy cams and aren't happy at low revs. They're not known to be particularly reliable.
The bike in the video has plates on it. It doesn't sound like it has an aggressive cam, the exhaust isn't loud(they look stock) and it didn't build revs very fast as if the flywheel had been lightened. The bike exhibits none of the clues one would look for in a high performance twin.
I know that what you're saying is correct when it comes to race engines. I am also very confident that the bike in this video has less than 100hp and that the dyno was calibrated by a meth addled simpleton.
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Hey Chuck,
Standing invite to bench race, ride , knock back IPA`S still stands when you are back in So Cal !
Rough Edge, The Super Flo numbers were low , mid 70s to mid 80`s depending on what the set up was. I chased ignition timing, cams and cam timing, AFR`S and octane to find what the engine liked , and didn't. Remember thinking at the time we might not be competitive , the big white dyno proved otherwise. The numbers aren`t so important as the tuning tool the dyno provides , especially where the peak numbers are at with RPM.
In watching the video again, that is a real nice, crisp sounding motor , it`s hard to make out the meter or gauge to the right of the HP reading, but it looks like a tachometer, and if so, a very low rpm reading ??
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Hey Chuck,
Standing invite to bench race, ride , knock back IPA`S still stands when you are back in So Cal !
Rough Edge, The Super Flo numbers were low , mid 70s to mid 80`s depending on what the set up was. I chased ignition timing, cams and cam timing, AFR`S and octane to find what the engine liked , and didn't. Remember thinking at the time we might not be competitive , the big white dyno proved otherwise. The numbers aren`t so important as the tuning tool the dyno provides , especially where the peak numbers are at with RPM.
In watching the video again, that is a real nice, crisp sounding motor , it`s hard to make out the meter or gauge to the right of the HP reading, but it looks like a tachometer, and if so, a very low rpm reading ??
Yes.... Dyno number are often over stressed...You have done a great job that's for sure. Can you post of photo of how the bike looked when it ran 159 MPH?
By video if you mean my bike. the engine is always geared for 7000 rpm maximum in high gear. 133 mph comes at an actual 6950 rpm...I believe in my situation, the bike runs fastest at the rpm where both torque and HP are highest...
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Hey Chuck,
Standing invite to bench race, ride , knock back IPA`S still stands when you are back in So Cal !
Rough Edge, The Super Flo numbers were low , mid 70s to mid 80`s depending on what the set up was. I chased ignition timing, cams and cam timing, AFR`S and octane to find what the engine liked , and didn't. Remember thinking at the time we might not be competitive , the big white dyno proved otherwise. The numbers aren`t so important as the tuning tool the dyno provides , especially where the peak numbers are at with RPM.
In watching the video again, that is a real nice, crisp sounding motor , it`s hard to make out the meter or gauge to the right of the HP reading, but it looks like a tachometer, and if so, a very low rpm reading ??
Sounds very similar to the sort of figures I saw on my little hot rod back in the day. From memory in its final roundfin form it produced 84(?) RWHP from 891cc but I think the dyno I was using was quite optimistic. Nice work Bill! :thumb:
Pete
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IMHO, a motorcycle built for racing and one for street riding shouldn't be compared. We don't compare top fuel dragsters to Honda Civics so we shouldn't with bikes either. Street ridden Stage 3 EVO's usually put out 85-95hp, have lumpy cams and aren't happy at low revs. They're not known to be particularly reliable.
The bike in the video has plates on it. It doesn't sound like it has an aggressive cam, the exhaust isn't loud(they look stock) and it didn't build revs very fast as if the flywheel had been lightened. The bike exhibits none of the clues one would look for in a high performance twin.
I know that what you're saying is correct when it comes to race engines. I am also very confident that the bike in this video has less than 100hp and that the dyno was calibrated by a meth addled simpleton.
If you ride a bike with a "race" engine on the street and it lasts for 10,000 miles between overhauls, then it's a street engine . I don't know what videos you're watching.... Yes, 120 HP street Sportsters ,if we talk dynos, are a reality...
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IMHO, a motorcycle built for racing and one for street riding shouldn't be compared. We don't compare top fuel dragsters to Honda Civics so we shouldn't with bikes either. Street ridden Stage 3 EVO's usually put out 85-95hp, have lumpy cams and aren't happy at low revs. They're not known to be particularly reliable.
The bike in the video has plates on it. It doesn't sound like it has an aggressive cam, the exhaust isn't loud(they look stock) and it didn't build revs very fast as if the flywheel had been lightened. The bike exhibits none of the clues one would look for in a high performance twin.
I know that what you're saying is correct when it comes to race engines. I am also very confident that the bike in this video has less than 100hp and that the dyno was calibrated by a meth addled simpleton.
Good point. I rode a CVO Bagger in Daytona a few years ago, it stage ++ whatever on it. Torque-y but it shook like a jackhammer. Just ruined the experience. The plain jane Road Glide/ Road King was much more balanced and not too heavy.
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I suggest you go the XL Forum and have a look.....Look at the speed records look at the engine builds and talk to the guys...later model Sportsters with the improved crankshafts are capable of 120 plus HP and are not a time bomb...Obviously any mass produced engine that is modified will have a shorter engine life...Not really a bang at any moment when properly built...
I am less knowledgeable than people give me credit for......I'm not a talented engine builder...I simply find the opponents weakness and go for the kill...The weakness was their engines were fussy and too sensitive to various factors when at the track..I built a reliable reasonably powerful engine that was more tolerant of changes in air density...Tuned on the dyno...and with no more that one jetting change comes off the trailer ,sets a new class record and we go party.....I have to give credit to my good friend who rides the bike... At 130 plus MPH, on a vibrating naked frame Triumph ,he is posting on bare steel foot pegs to get his ass slightly higher than his helmet for best airflow and speed...
That is a *whole* lot of ellipses!
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Rough Edge,
The video I was referring to was the OP `s link to the Green V11. RPM`s looked really low, if that was a tachometer. That whole thing smells of internet deception .
Here`s a pic of the Meteor in 2011 at Speedweek, A-PG . We went 159 and change, qualified on my old record of 150.9 , set in 2008. We went to Impound and were asked to leave a few hours later due to the bike not meeting A-PG rules. ( footpegs not back far enough / rear tire taller than the seat etc. ) So, we didn`t get to make a backup . The extra speed from 08 was due to different gearing, aero changes and position on the bike.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/kr2xNx/BONNEVILLE_20110814_0278.jpg) (http://ibb.co/kr2xNx)
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Rough Edge,
Here`s a pic of the Meteor in 2011 at Speedweek, A-PG . We went 159 and change, qualified on my old record of 150.9 , set in 2008. We went to Impound and were asked to leave a few hours later due to the bike not meeting A-PG rules. ( footpegs not back far enough / rear tire taller than the seat etc. ) So, we didn`t get to make a backup . The extra speed from 08 was due to different gearing, aero changes and position on the bike.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/kr2xNx/BONNEVILLE_20110814_0278.jpg) (http://ibb.co/kr2xNx)
Yes, altered rules...You can't run a MP bike in altered withing meeting a few requirements....Non e of that affected your speed which is f***ing impressive to put it bluntly..Rider position can be worth a lot speed... And yes, other guys turning those speeds claim over 100 rear wheel HP on a Dynojet...