Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kristian on March 12, 2018, 06:54:38 PM
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A US vendor sells a 1,380 cc "drop-in" kit for Griso 8vs; somehow, this doesn't strike me as a good idea.
They also sell super-short dual exhausts for Grisos, and suggest eliminating the oil cooler to make it fit. That strikes me as a really bad idea; you know, 4-v heads, air-cooling, big power, and all that. And, shorty exhausts for street use wouldn't really be optimal, or so I thought.
Finally, the same vendor claims that 110+ WHP is easily available on Griso 8Vs with exhaust & FI tuning). I have scrubbed the net for a Dynojet test sheet showing this, but cannot find it. The vendor doesn't show dyno charts.
Has anyone here ever gotten 110+ WHP out of their 8v Griso from easy mods?
What's going on with this vendor?
Ta-
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What does the 'drop in' kit entail? Guzzi OEM barrels and pistons and crank, or aftermarket?
Shorty exhaust does nothing good. For maximum torque on the street, you need a 2 into 1 with a long pipe.
No oil cooler is a disaster waiting to happen. Don't do it.
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Yes , don't do it .
Dusty
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Mr Google took me to Guzzi Tech.
http://www.guzzitech.com/store/product/gt-1380-big-bore-pistons-cylinders/
110 HP sounds achievable.
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Mr Google took me to Guzzi Tech.
http://www.guzzitech.com/store/product/gt-1380-big-bore-pistons-cylinders/
110 HP sounds achievable.
Except the 1400 Griso that Pete and Mark built with proper mapping and exhaust isn't making but about 100 HP . Maybe this thing is making 110 HP , but I'll bet the torque curve looks like a side shot of MT Everest .
Dusty
Edit . Removing the oil cooler after increasing the displacement by 200 CC's is just asking for trouble .
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Couldn't you just include a couple of brackets and some longer hoses to relocate the oil cooler with this kit? ? Wouldn't be a bad idea.
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Couldn't you just include a couple of brackets and some longer hoses to relocate the oil cooler with this kit? ? Wouldn't be a bad idea.
That would require some real engineering .
Dusty
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You might be able to get an honest 110 at th rear wheel but only by sacrificing drivability. You certainly won't get it with individual short pipes but if all you're interested in is suckering the rubes you can probably flog a few based on bullshit.
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With a feeling of dread, I clicked on the link. It's not really a 'drop in' kit. You have to get your crank rebalanced. No mention of any other work. Curious.
Couldn't find any shorty twin exhaust that required oil cooler removal. Oil cooler relocation kits are available. I've seen them done. Rossopurro or some such. One exhaust description did make me giggle. "Mandatory GT ECU reflash required."
110 RWHP may be possible on a good day. Under the right conditions. But as Dusty says, it'd be peaky. Shite to ride, I imagine.
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I see nothing in the GuzziTech add that claims 110 whp or relocating or removing the oil cooler. Also not really �drop in� when rebalance is required. I would certainly think 110 whp is very possible when Todd is getting 95 plus whp out of the single throttle body 1400s. Archived by using a full exhaust system, opened air box, PC5 with auto tune. My 1400 California has these changes and pulls extremely hard for a large cruiser.
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Except the 1400 Griso that Pete and Mark built with proper mapping and exhaust isn't making but about 100 HP . Maybe this thing is making 110 HP , but I'll bet the torque curve looks like a side shot of MT Everest .
Dusty
Edit . Removing the oil cooler after increasing the displacement by 200 CC's is just asking for trouble .
that 1400 has a flat torque curve. 110 hp seems pretty achievable without affecting rideability.
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John? How much experimentation have you done with the 8V motor and how well do you know it's architecture? It is NOT an engine that is easy to magic power out of due to its design. Unfortunately people make comparisons with other twins of the same capacity and just assume that the same figures will be achievable out of the 8V. They are wrong. How do we know? Hard work and honesty.
(Shrug.)
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none. Pete.
none what so ever. I can't even change the timing cover gasket on my Sport.
my comments were trolled against making the engine peaky.
But hell, the V11 makes 123 hp. :wink:
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On the subject of oil cooler removal there are several reasons I would councel against it. Although overall the 8V is grossly over-cooled the cooling circuit, which is fed through the cooler, then delivers oil to the cooling galleries around the exhaust valves. This is the very hottest part of the motor and that oil flow is vital to remove heat from the valve seats and by extension the valves. The only way valves can dump heat is through their seats when they are closed and through the stem/guide interface. Too little cooling, which might be caused by insufficient oil flow or insufficient temperature differential betwixt valve head and seat could lead to weakening of the valve stem and loss of a valve head.
Is that likely? Who knows? But the oil galleries were put there for a reason so common sense dictates that overheating of the valves was foreseen as a possibility.
Pete
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My 2014 Norge was “tuned” by this “vendor” for the original owner. It was a stinking, over-fueled mess. The guy was so frustrated by the experience and this “expert” telling him it was as good as it gets, he sold the bike to me for about half what he paid new. Poor bastard. I removed the PCV, loaded Mark’s map, and it is now a complete joy. I would run far and fast from any of his offerings that go beyond the very simple bolt-ons.
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Bullshit free, accurate, (Compared to other runs.) dyno chart from a tool that gets seemingly realistic figures from other machines. The dip at the top is caused by the PCV Mark was using as a storage device for a more economical map. Removing the PCV screwed up the fueling again I believe indicating that even when it wasn't active it was having an impact.
I'm sure if he wishes too he can explain more fully.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4698/25307693827_aff43a8afd_z.jpg)
As we stated before we even started down this road we were't expecting a big boost in 'Power'. What we wanted to see was big, fat, torque. That's exactly what we got. It's a hoot to ride, 10-12 ft/lbs more torque and the 'Curve' is flat from nothing to the rev limiter. The engine is also quiet enough not to annoy people and outwardly indistinguishable from any other single spark 8V.
The bike? Not so much.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4625/26287618448_6e74d545d4_o.jpg)
It's the one in the middle.
Pete
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I tossed the Power Commander. The PC-V loads down the TPS to such extent that the ECU can't read it correctly. You can add some resistance between the TPS and PC to reduce the affect. I had 30K or additional resistance to get it to function, but it still wasn't right. When it started breaking down under load, I removed it.
I'm still tweaking the map. I'll remove the dip at 4000 RPM, and I fully expect to crack 100 RWHP.
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just curious why no thermostat on the oil cooler? None available aftermarket?
I know a fellow that had a Stelvio and said there was usually mayonnaise in it whenever he serviced it.
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I would buy a Griso again if it had ABS and a better oil pressure sensor. More HP was never a problem to me when I had one.
Ahhh, Nera was such a great bike...
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6135/5938476451_c832f1073a_b.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/mojohand/sets/72157627073164935/)
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I see nothing in the GuzziTech add that claims 110 whp or relocating or removing the oil cooler.
Right here: https://www.cycleworld.com/2013/07/09/2013-moto-guzzi-griso-8v-se-black-devil-riding-impression (https://www.cycleworld.com/2013/07/09/2013-moto-guzzi-griso-8v-se-black-devil-riding-impression)
Look up new Griso exhaust re removing oil cooler.
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(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4698/25307693827_aff43a8afd_z.jpg)
That is a **monster** torque curve!
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A US vendor sells a 1,380 cc "drop-in" kit for Griso 8vs; somehow, this doesn't strike me as a good idea.
They also sell super-short dual exhausts for Grisos, and suggest eliminating the oil cooler to make it fit. That strikes me as a really bad idea; you know, 4-v heads, air-cooling, big power, and all that. And, shorty exhausts for street use wouldn't really be optimal, or so I thought.
Finally, the same vendor claims that 110+ WHP is easily available on Griso 8Vs with exhaust & FI tuning). I have scrubbed the net for a Dynojet test sheet showing this, but cannot find it. The vendor doesn't show dyno charts.
Has anyone here ever gotten 110+ WHP out of their 8v Griso from easy mods?
What's going on with this vendor?
Ta-
Todd is the Billy Mays of Guzzidom.
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That is a **monster** torque curve!
Thanks. That's what we were aiming for. The engine work required a little bit of ingenuity but the hard yards are all down to Mark. I'd be very interested to see what sort of figures might be achievable with a 'Thumb on the scales' dyno like they seem to specialise in in So-Cal! :grin: or I suppose we could just pull any old numbers out of our arses! Seems like lots of people are willing to believe anything if it's what they want to hear.......
Pete
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just curious why no thermostat on the oil cooler? None available aftermarket?
I know a fellow that had a Stelvio and said there was usually mayonnaise in it whenever he serviced it.
No, there are aftermarket thermostats available, I actually bought one and was going to fit it to mine but due to mounting considerations I stuck it in the 'Too hard' basket.
It needs to be a bypass thermostat as well. One that still allows full flow through the system and just bypasses the cooler. You can't just dump the oil back in the sump without sending it through the cooling circuit as is done on V11's and earlier CARC 2V machines. The oil flow through the cooling circuit is required. For that reason the alternative of just blocking off the cooler during cold weather, although less elegant, is a lot simpler as a ruse to warm the oil up. Having said that the roller engines don't seem to mind cold oil particularly.......
Pete
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Well the guys from Radical guzzi in germany, you sure have seen their 4 valve engines in tonti frames, do conversions too. they use only cilinders and pistons of the 1400 cali, no balancing, and claim it is all ok. then do a dyno and this is their figure, believe it or not, the customer with his griso is happy. They tell that they use stock parts but have some secrets to get the mix good. :violent1::
(https://s9.postimg.org/lay1ouzvj/83_A6_A69_F-_E7_FE-4_D9_C-_A394-10547065_B479.jpg)
(https://s9.postimg.org/e4s1xsijz/6_D559246-5_EC5-457_B-9_E10-28_B4_EC1_B5_A70.jpg)
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No, I don't. Neither do I believe you can stick that sort of power safely through a helically cut five speed, twin plate clutch and Tonti bevelbox.
Pete
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wow, that power curve looks like Mt Everest.
Looks like Dusty will feed me crow at Cedar Vale instead of catfish.
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wow, that power curve looks like Mt Everest.
Looks like Dusty will feed me crow at Cedar Vale instead of catfish.
You'll have to provide the crow :laugh:
Is that 140 NM at peak , W/O doing the math , isn't that about 102 HP at 8K RPM's ?
Dusty
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At the bottom are the numbers.
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At the bottom are the numbers.
So 104 KW = about 140 HP ? :shocked: Man Paul , I am having a hard time believing it would hold together or be very streetable .
Dusty
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If he doesn't balance the crank then he must be skimming weight off pistons if he uses the same rods.
Pics of a supercharger on the other forum.
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If he doesn't balance the crank then he must be skimming weight off pistons if he uses the same rods.
Pics of a supercharger on the other forum.
I know Pete looked into that and found it not the way to do it.
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There is a 37g difference in weight between the 1200 and 1400 pistons. Unless you rebalance the crank it will sap power and make the engine vibrate like a cheap sex aid. IMHO there is no way to remove 37g of metal safely from the pistons.
I can guess what they've done to the barrels, it's why the pic shows them upside down. If they are using some different camshafts and valve springs plus a fair bit of head work they can probably drag a bit more out of 1400cc's but I still disbelieve 140, apart from anything else because of the other componentry used in the bike.
Pete
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There is a 37g difference in weight between the 1200 and 1400 pistons. Unless you rebalance the crank it will sap power and make the engine vibrate like a cheap sex aid. IMHO there is no way to remove 37g of metal safely from the pistons.
I can guess what they've done to the barrels, it's why the pic shows them upside down. If they are using some different camshafts and valve springs plus a fair bit of head work they can probably drag a bit more out of 1400cc's but I still disbelieve 140, apart from anything else because of the other componentry used in the bike.
Pete
This was a swap in one day, just cilindrs pistons, no head work.
top view
(https://s9.postimg.org/4wzth3j7j/D7263_B52-77_FF-4_FA0-97_B0-94_EF3_E1_E25_E0.jpg)
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Only changes are the barrels and pistons? And they use stock parts? Rubbish! It would vibrate itself to bits. No other changes? No head work? No fancy cams? 140HP & 148Nm (109 ft-lbs)? Complete Rubbish!
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You'll have to provide the crow :laugh:
Is that 140 NM at peak , W/O doing the math , isn't that about 102 HP at 8K RPM's ?
Dusty
I'll take the catfish. And those Delrod dogs smothered in onions.
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This was a swap in one day, just cilindrs pistons, no head work.
top view
(https://s9.postimg.org/4wzth3j7j/D7263_B52-77_FF-4_FA0-97_B0-94_EF3_E1_E25_E0.jpg)
Well Paul, if that is all they've done I'd run a bloody mile! The cooling circuit is now blocked. The cooling oil will be venting straight into the timing chest through the OPRV. Used in anger, or even mild annoyance for any length of time I'd expect a spectacular valve or head casting/seat failure.
Pete
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There is a 37g difference in weight between the 1200 and 1400 pistons. Unless you rebalance the crank it will sap power and make the engine vibrate like a cheap sex aid. IMHO there is no way to remove 37g of metal safely from the pistons.
I can guess what they've done to the barrels, it's why the pic shows them upside down. If they are using some different camshafts and valve springs plus a fair bit of head work they can probably drag a bit more out of 1400cc's but I still disbelieve 140, apart from anything else because of the other componentry used in the bike.
Pete
Just to clarify..
By "vibrate like a cheap sex aid" are we to assume not at all, or to the point of discomfort...
(Unaccustomed as I am of course.... :embarrassed: :drool:)
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You'll have to provide the crow :laugh:
Is that 140 NM at peak , W/O doing the math , isn't that about 102 HP at 8K RPM's ?
Dusty
It all becomes a bit hard to swallow if you apply the numbers claimed.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/njhqSx/IMG_0684.png) (http://ibb.co/njhqSx)<br /
140 Nm x 8,000/9.5488= 117,292 Watts
Or
117.292 KW/0.746 = 157 Hp.....
Now of course if that peak torque was claimed @ 6,000 RPM, then the peak power comes to 117 odd Hp.
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Pete something has been done for the oil return.
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Thank you!
The output figures are still pure bullshit.
Pete