Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mean Mr. Mustard on May 17, 2018, 01:58:33 PM
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Since the weather broke in S.E. Wisconsin a few weeks back, I have been riding my new V7lll Special to work daily. I am really growing fond of the relaxed cadence of the motor, the music to my ears Agostini exhaust note, and the very comfortable riding position. The bike steers predictably. It is easy to lean over and once leaned over, it holds its line well.
The suspension, on the other hand, is a joke. I take Lake Shore Drive from downtown Milwaukee north about nine miles to Glendale where I work. It is a beautiful, scenic and relaxing way to start the workday. But with one small issue. The road surface is filled with potholes and sharp heaves. It is the heaves that give me trouble. The bike's suspension snaps sharply when I go over them. On numerous occasions, the bucking has caused me to snap my wrist which causes a sudden, sharp acceleration. Yesterday, while I was adjusting a mirror and steering with one hand, I went over a heave. The bike bucked and the front wheel flicked from one side to the other. Thankfully I was quickly able to regain control. This morning I went over a heave and the bike snapped so hard and sharp that it hurt my lower back. I think that I damaged a lower vertebra. I have been taking Advil all day to lessen the pain. This not good. I can't believe that Moto Guzzi, in this day and age, would sell a bike so poorly suspended.
With that said, I really love the look and visceral qualities of the bike. I am struggling with the thought of spending money on what is an already pricey entry level machine just to make it ridable, let alone safe. I am hoping that there is an affordable fix or I'm afraid that what I hoped would be a long-term partner will be an expensive blunder.
Thanks for letting me vent.
Mario
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No worries. This is easily fixed with Ikon rear shocks. 7610s I believe.
I was like you---the OEM shocks made the bike painful to ride, especially over sharp edged bumps. I switched to the Ikon rear shocks, and now it is ride-able all day or 750 miles no problem.
I'm told that you can also upgrade the front forks in various ways to make it even better. I may get around to doing that at some point, but haven't done so.
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For the front end something like this
http://www.guzzitech.com/store/product/matris-v7-f15k-full-cartridge-kit/
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I must be the only man alive that doesn't feel this way. I've got 30K on my V7, commuting, long distance, backroads, fire roads and no roads... and I've yet to experience anything that makes me feel the way so many others do about the suspension.
Could it be improved? Of course it could... everything could. I just don't understand the "this is the worse thing since the bubonic plague" mentality about it.
but hey... it's just like, my opinion, man.
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His report reads like a lot of others, mine included. Owners state the they get THROWN OUT of the saddle in certain situations. That's unacceptable. It's unsafe. And, if a poor road happens to present a poor surface in the middle of a spirited turn the bike can get bump steered to the extreme outside of the turn.
There are a host of realistic solutions for very reasonable cash and the shocks can be switched at home in 20 minutes. The OP should, IMO, buy one time, cry one time, and then enjoy his bike for many years.
Hagon Nitros are also a very good solution. There are others.
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Toecutter:
Do you live down on a farm? Ever been to Paris? :laugh:
I don't doubt that you are ok with the stock shocks. Just wondering what you would say if you tried better shocks on your V7.
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I live on my homestead, surrounded by farms, at the end of 10 km of truly horrendous dirt/sand roads, that I tend to ride far faster than I would, had I a lick of sense in my head. I have been to Paris. I have ridden high end bikes, and have been riding for 38 years. I have ridden better, I have ridden worse. I weigh 185 pounds, and I put about 10,000 km a year on my V7.
I have never been bucked out of my seat , I have never felt that I was at the mercy of the suspension.
Do I think it could be improved? Of course I do. Do I think it's the melodramatic "worst suspension ever" that people go on about? No, I don't. But that doesn't discount those opinions, they're perfectly valid, I'm simply offering a differing opinion. And as I said. it's just my opinion.
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The suspension, on the other hand, is a joke. I take Lake Shore Drive from downtown Milwaukee north about nine miles to Glendale where I work. It is a beautiful, scenic and relaxing way to start the workday. But with one small issue. The road surface is filled with potholes and sharp heaves. It is the heaves that give me trouble. The bike's suspension snaps sharply when I go over them. On numerous occasions, the bucking has caused me to snap my wrist which causes a sudden, sharp acceleration. Yesterday, while I was adjusting a mirror and steering with one hand, I went over a heave. The bike bucked and the front wheel flicked from one side to the other. Thankfully I was quickly able to regain control. This morning I went over a heave and the bike snapped so hard and sharp that it hurt my lower back. I think that I damaged a lower vertebra. I have been taking Advil all day to lessen the pain. This not good. I can't believe that Moto Guzzi, in this day and age, would sell a bike so poorly suspended.
With that said, I really love the look and visceral qualities of the bike. I am struggling with the thought of spending money on what is an already pricey entry level machine just to make it ridable, let alone safe. I am hoping that there is an affordable fix or I'm afraid that what I hoped would be a long-term partner will be an expensive blunder.
Thanks for letting me vent.
Mario
Mario, you hit the nail square in the head, the suspension on the V7 III is indeed down right dangerous. I had the dealer add emulators to the forks on my Special before I took delivery then rode about 3K miles home to Florida . Yeh, I did a fly/ride.
Several times on the trip home I had that spine tingling encounters with sharp bumps in the road and tail wagging when pushed modestly in the curves. Two week ago I installed a pair of Wilbers 630 TS Road Blueline shocks and now I'm a happy rider. I was reluctant to spend the money but realize it's was money well spent for the enjoyment of the ride and the elimination of a safety hazard.
For the record..... Shock installation took me about an 1 1/2 hours, seat latch cable was stuck, luggage rack had to be loosened, same for grab rail. Sometimes the simple tasks I undertake turnout to be not so simple. :embarrassed:
Paul
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I used to have a 750 Breva and I got Pete Roper to put Ikon front springs and rear shocks on it and it really was a chalk and cheese improvement. Much better in handling potholes and lumps in the bitumen, and also much better at going round long sweepers that have undulations that cause wallowing with the original suspension.
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The OP should, IMO, buy one time, cry one time, and then enjoy his bike for many years.
Common problem. Triumphs & many Harleys also suffer from this build to price problem.
Buy absolutely the best shocks you can. You do not want to have to buy the second pair.
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There are two problems. Firstly the incredibly crappy quality of the Kaifa forks and god knows what 'Poverty Pack' shocks and secondly you're still dealing with what is essentially a 40 year old chassis. If you want to ride a fossil then chances are its going to behave like a fossil.
Pete
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Well, he says it's ok for him, and that's that. I'd have rather not spent more $$ on a new bike but it was unrideable stock. Which I knew going into the deal.
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The talk of the suspension being good or bad ... compared to what?
A Suzuki SV-650 rear suspension has 5.1" of travel. The Suzuki V-Strom 650 has 6.3" of rear wheel travel. The V7 iii models have 3.15" of rear suspension travel.
Ride down a rough bumpy road, which might be better?
I'm glad you guys are finding shocks that are making them better, but I still don't see how 3.15" of travel can ever be great. On my Racer, with Ohlins shocks, I just stand up now for the bumps, dirt bike style.
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"Common problem. Triumphs & many Harleys also suffer from this build to price problem." same for bmw, or it was when i owned them. none of them worth a darn without aftermarket suspension.
i had a victory that was pretty good, but it was a 750 lb bike. i believe the problem is magnified on a lighter bike, over sprung and under damped - the typical formula for cheap shocks especially when you have short travel suspensions such as the 750. anyone seen the new indian scout. i think it has about an inch and a half of travel.
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Good point, usedtobe fast. I did assume we all understood the discussion was within the limits of stock travel. That said, quality travel is available in any length. It's a matter of degree. It is possible to not get thrown off the V7 bikes with available rear travel at stock height.
That does not mean optional rear treatments transform the bike into a 'comfo-lounger" but it is possible to eliminate the, IMHO, dangerous hopping the as delivered bike provides for a certain number of owners.
Not splitting hairs or anything like that, nor trying to be difficult.
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The talk of the suspension being good or bad ... compared to what?
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Compared to suspension that provides a well controlled, safe, and comfortable ride in the environment and the style in which you ride.
Simple really. :grin:
Paul
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OP here.
I wish to thank everyone who responded with both advice and opinion. I am taking everything under advisement. I spoke to my Cheif Finacial Officer this morning and she made it clear that I must upgrade the suspension and not sell or trade the bike. I am very lucky to have such a supportive, unselfish wife by my side. That still doesn't help me feel better about spending over a thousand dollars on parts and labor just to make the bike rideable and safe.
Again, Thank you so much for your advice and counsel. I appreciate it!
Mario
PS... My back still hurts from yesterday :sad:
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The suspension is bad, but i'd stop short of saying it's dangerous. When i tried to go fast on my stock V7ii, it would let me know when i was pushing it. Things would get a little nervous, and I'd just slow down.
I wouldn't do just rear shocks. I did Racetech springs and valving in the cheap Kaifa fork which seemed the best bang for the buck, and it works.
Yes, it's an old chassis, but i sure can hustle it quickly now without scaring myself. Lots more fun to ride.
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OP here.
I wish to thank everyone who responded with both advice and opinion. I am taking everything under advisement. I spoke to my Cheif Finacial Officer this morning and she made it clear that I must upgrade the suspension and not sell or trade the bike. I am very lucky to have such a supportive, unselfish wife by my side. That still doesn't help me feel better about spending over a thousand dollars on parts and labor just to make the bike rideable and safe.
Again, Thank you so much for your advice and counsel. I appreciate it!
Mario
PS... My back still hurts from yesterday :sad:
You're a very luck guy to have that CFO in your life... good on ya and good on her.
Paul
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Hi Mario.....I had the same decision. At the time there were darn few options for shocks or forks. Even though my vendor experience was less than optimal I'm really happy with the end result, a bike I can take on a multi day trip and enjoy the ride. Now you have many more shock options. The Ikon shocks seem to be a good value. Emulsion shocks are OK, don't think you need to go over the top here. It's really a matter of getting the correct spring and decent valving for your weight and riding. I installed RaceTech emulators and springs in the forks so now I have some adjustability.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/13-V7-Special/i-hd258Bb/0/6353e870/M/IMG_0955-M.jpg)
It took a few rounds of testing to get the preload and dampening where I like it. The good news is that these changes are not difficult. Two hints: it's really easy to remove the emulators for dampening adjustment if you use a magnet on a stick; be careful with the aluminum caps on the forks, the metal is quite soft and the flats are pretty shallow. I ground down a socket to give a better grip (after chewing up one of the caps!)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/13-V7-Special/i-4xjX898/0/3124604c/M/IMG_1042-M.jpg)
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You don't need to spend 100.00.
High end Hagons are under 600 and you can do it yourself in 10 minutes per side. REALLY easy. There are a few good options under that price, too. Hagon has a less expensive shock that works ok as does ICON. While doing both ends is really the way to go IMO you do need to solve getting bucked off the bike first. You can service the front when you remove the forks for scheduled maintenance. Lots of folks do it that was as it's a bit more involved, but the rear is VERY easy and quick to do.
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about the only thing better than a suspension thread is an oil thread :).
Read this kind of thing on just about any bike & you’ll find a range of impressions from pretty good to terrible & odds are, all of them are right. Some people are bigger, some people are smaller, some have several bikes with which to compare others only one, some travel fairly good roads, some don’t etc., etc. If you are not happy with the suspension, replace the shocks first. Given the travel limits, that’s apt to return the best bang for the buck. ‘Alot of options on that & not all of them are that expensive.
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Well stated.
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Will V7 II spec shocks work on the III? Most manufactures don't show a listing for the Mk3. As far as I can tell the Mk2 is about a 1.25" longer and I wouldn't mind a bit more ride height.
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I wasn't trying to insult the Moto Guzzi :grin: but people shouldn't think they can bolt on a pair of $400 or $600 or even $1800 shocks and it will transform these bikes into pot hole absorbing cush-o-matic Lincoln Town Car bump floating heaven. :grin:
My $1800 Ohlins rear suspension on my 2017 Racer is way way way worse than a stock Suzuki V-strom 650 at bump absorption. And that makes sense. the V-strom has lots of travel, is made to ride on bumpy roads.
So one great upgrade/approach is a vision check, good glasses/contacts (if needed) and miss all the bumps! :grin:
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Will V7 II spec shocks work on the III? Most manufactures don't show a listing for the Mk3. As far as I can tell the Mk2 is about a 1.25" longer and I wouldn't mind a bit more ride height.
Raising the rear that much is probably not a good idea for the chassis geometry. Seems the III's come with the fork tubes flush with the top triple clamp so you can't raise the front ride height that way. I'm also not sure about the swingarm angles and the drive shaft ... like if you go out of spec by 1.25" does that do anything to the drive shaft? Not sure if that angle would cause any odd wear issues? But I'm just guessing and speculating. :grin:
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Raising the rear that much is probably not a good idea for the chassis geometry. Seems the III's come with the fork tubes flush with the top triple clamp so you can't raise the front ride height that way. I'm also not sure about the swingarm angles and the drive shaft ... like if you go out of spec by 1.25" does that do anything to the drive shaft? Not sure if that angle would cause any odd wear issues? But I'm just guessing and speculating. :grin:
I have similar concerns hence the question. Will also be adding stiffer springs in the front that should help offset increased rear height a bit.
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keep in mind “plush” and “controlled” don’t necessarily play well together. My DR650 has something like 10” of travel & will float over just about anything but dropping it into a curve at 90 is not exactly it’s strong suite. Conversely, most sport bikes are a bit of a handlful on a fire trail...
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keep in mind �plush� and �controlled� don�t necessarily play well together. My DR650 has something like 10� of travel & will float over just about anything but dropping it into a curve at 90 is not exactly it�s strong suite. Conversely, most sport bikes are a bit of a handlful on a fire trail...
Can't agree more. With the rough roads and lower speeds I ride plush make sense but it no fun to have a bike diving and wallowing in turns when you're making time. You have to be honest with how you really ride before you go making suspension updates, especially if it's your only ride.
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I thinking is that with a shaft drive you are never going to be given plush, long travel suspension. Again, my thinking is if they fitted a CV joint instead of a UJ they could get more movement.
My 2003 Brve does have crap suspension. Going to 10 weight in the front made a big difference to the Marzocchis. I run the preload on the rear backed off as far as it can go and it is about right for two-up or a decent load.
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You won't be well served by having incorrect spring weights-no matter what the objective is.
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I thinking is that with a shaft drive you are never going to be given plush, long travel suspension. Again, my thinking is if they fitted a CV joint instead of a UJ they could get more movement.
Tell that to a VS owner!
My 2003 Brve does have crap suspension. Going to 10 weight in the front made a big difference to the Marzocchis. I run the preload on the rear backed off as far as it can go and it is about right for two-up or a decent load.
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keep in mind �plush� and �controlled� don�t necessarily play well together. My DR650 has something like 10� of travel & will float over just about anything but dropping it into a curve at 90 is not exactly it�s strong suite. Conversely, most sport bikes are a bit of a handlful on a fire trail...
What are all those diamonds in your post.I have seen them before and dont know why they are there.
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What are all those diamonds in your post? I have seen them before and don't know why they are there.
I think it has something to do with the font used by the posters device not being recognized by the forum. It happens to posts I make from my phone, but not my laptop.
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I think it has something to do with the font used by the posters device not being recognized by the forum. It happens to posts I make from my phone, but not my laptop.
Correct - things like ampersands, bold, quotes and even questions marks aren't even recognized by my PC. Something to do with control characters being blocked. I also don't see the emoticons anymore - just the description.
Not sure if it's me or the forum...
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Correct - things like ampersands, bold, quotes and even questions marks aren't even recognized by my PC. Something to do with control characters being blocked. I also don't see the emoticons anymore - just the description.
Not sure if it's me or the forum...
Fortunately, it doesn’t really matter, as the posts are perfectly comprehensible even with the missing punctuation.
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My notion, a rather long time ago now:
MG is literally a boutique mc manufacturer. The V7 line in particular aught to be offered as a base chassis with a list of pick and choose items: suspension, wheels, brakes, exhausts, fairings, seating factory colors.
The notion of buying a bike, having already acknowledged the short comings and thus paying 2 X for material changes + labor is foolish from the start.
I believe the change in marketing would lend a certain panache to a brand that already has built in exclusivity.
I lived in CT for many years. I've known Jim Hamlin for quite some time. My son knows him very well.
I wanted one more mc. It needed to be a Guzzi. I've had as many as 6 @ one time. I still have 4, including a V7 IIIR purchased last July.
Jim Hamlin is one of those rare dealers that will 'make it fit', if you're interested.
I wanted better suspension, handle bar placement and foot controls. Rather than a special or Anniversario, (+ pay for and swap parts), it was less expensive to get a Racer w/a better frt. end.
Jim offered Legnano bars, a different saddle and I chose a K-Tech frt. end. It also didn't leave the shop w/out an all metal fuel filter, the NGK hi-tension conversion and cast wheels - - - which I made $$ in the swap.
All the body parts, including the frt. fender are @ the paint shop. The wheels were powder coated. I'm waiting on decals. Another week and it should be ready for re-assembly.
My only complaint? It would be great 100#'s lighter. Good fortune, R3~
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I've been down that route a couple of times, in more recent times vs 'back when.' Seems like the manufacturers must conclude that those of us buying their lower end machines must not care about suspension. (Hey, what do these buyers know .... they must be amateurs!)
Well, hate to break it to them, but they'd be way ahead if they would really concentrate on the suspension on their lower end bikes. I'm now about ready to part company with my 2014 CB1100. I thought, surely to Gawd, Honda, of all manufacturers, would understand that buyers of their retro bike would expect compliant suspension. Wrong!
However, if you read the CB1100 forum, it would appear as though there is only a small number of owners who think the suspension sucks. I'm one of those, and am tired of futzing with the bike, so it is up for sale. I will remove the Ikon shocks and replace the stockers on the bike before selling, since so many owners seem to think 'all is well' with the stock setup.
Bob
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MG is literally a boutique mc manufacturer. The V7 line in particular aught to be offered as a base chassis with a list of pick and choose items: suspension, wheels, brakes, exhausts, fairings, seating factory colors.
When the Baby B came out MG offered at the same time a rear suspension upgrade. They were a piggy back unit, but who made them I don't know.
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I have a little over 400 mi on my V7III Special now--I don't think the suspension is that much worse than the other eight Guzzis I've had (~130 k miles on them, 'course two of those were loops). I did adjust the preload on the shocks and that helped a bit.
Rich
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So much depends on the road conditions. I'd venture to say that most, if not all of us who have expressed dissatisfaction with the as supplied rear shocks have experienced the getting thrown out of the seat thing. That's just unacceptable. Not just my experience with V7's. Four newish Bonnies were all that way too, and all were modded to fix that issue.
Strangely enough, my wife's new $5000.00 BMW G310R monoshock is WORLDS better that any of the Bonnies or the V7 as supplied.
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So much depends on the road conditions.
Agreed. Most of the roads around here are quite good--we don't get many potholes and frost heaves as it's so dry and it doesn't freeze that often. The weight of the rider and riding style also make a big difference, too, I'm sure.
Rucg
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Before you commit to spending big, check that what you have is set up properly (do what I say, not as I do). When the V7C suddenly started skipping the rear end over bumps, I first changed the fork oil - badly in need of refreshing - and that solved that problem. Cheaper than having the rear (Gazi) serviced. It may be that the factory put the incorrect amount of oil in your forks. It's the easiest thing to check first, and the cheapest to fix.
I've ridden a demo V7III Racer over a bumpy road that jars the V7C, the Special & the V7 II Racer. The III merely floated over those same bumps. I suspect that III may have been set up properly by the dealer and has given me a target for what is possible.
While I'm up here visiting Qld on the V7C, I'm going to have the Gazi's serviced - they have been on for some 120,000km - then change the fork oil as well. It will be interesting to note the difference over country roads.
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Fortunately, it doesn�t really matter, as the posts are perfectly comprehensible even with the missing punctuation.
[/quote ]It makes it hard to read. Punctuation makes a difference. For instance:" You are an idiot ",is different than "You are an idiot?'
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What are all those diamonds in your post.I have seen them before and dont know why they are there.
‘not really sure, it only happens here, might be an apple thing....
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I also am no fan of the on suspenders. That said , the price point is why . Being a gentleman of a certain size springs were my issue ,to get the sag correct I had the rear spring adjusters about 65% used up &added 3/4"spacers to forks . At same time I dealt with the fork fluid,that helped. One thing that took the "edge" off the bumps was radials tires! I got 6k mi. Out the demons. About 8k m. I went w/ stiffer springs on oem shocks & new fork springs. Mad my own preload adjusters out of stock fork caps.Now w/ me & my camping gear (70lbs) I'm no longer crashing & banging off the stops! Another observation, suspension travel as listed is optemistic at best at least by my tape measure. It's not ideal ,what is ? But tolerable .I still take my other bike on long tours (R1200r) but my V7 is still a hoot ,like doing a polka w/100lb girl!
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O.P. here
I went ahead and ordered Ikon shocks and springs made to order for my weight and riding style. After reading all of the responses I feel that this is my best option.
Again, THANK YOU so much for your invaluable feedback, I truly appreciate it.
Mario
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good call, I was surprised how big a difference it made when I switched out the shocks on my Bonneville. Be sure to report back on what you think once you have them on.
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good call, I was surprised how big a difference it made when I switched out the shocks on my Bonneville. Be sure to report back on what you think once you have them on.
Will do
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Take a few moments and set the sag. It does make a BIG difference. You'll need to do it one more time at around 500 road miles as the springs will take a bit of a set.
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sigh,... this thread is killing my dreams. well, okay, day dream of owning a V7 III.
this does sound very similar to the complaints I have about my wife's Sportster 883 Low
<back to lurk mode>
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sigh,... this thread is killing my dreams. well, okay, day dream of owning a V7 III.
this does sound very similar to the complaints I have about my wife's Sportster 883 Low
<back to lurk mode>
O.P. here
Please don't let my whining short circuit your V7III plans. Overall it is a really nice bike. For one, it is drop dead gorgeous. You will be staring at it for hours. The motor is fabulous. It is extremely comfortable. Just be cognizant when going over ice heaves! :wink:
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I went ahead and ordered Ikon shocks and springs made to order for my weight and riding style. After reading all of the responses I feel that this is my best option.
I just sent emails to both Ikon and Hagon with my riding style, weight and ride expectations for shocks and front springs. Will be interesting to see what package each recommends.
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And, even stock, it's better than the 1.3 inch travel of the 883. That's another bike that really improves with aftermarket shocks.
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sigh,... this thread is killing my dreams. well, okay, day dream of owning a V7 III.
this does sound very similar to the complaints I have about my wife's Sportster 883 Low
<back to lurk mode>
Owning a V7 III and having ridden a Sportster Iron I can tell you the suspension is night and day difference. I would say the V7 is 'decent' suspension, just a bit harsh and undersprung for me. The stock Iron shocks are just plain punishing on anything but a smooth road.
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many bikes where style is the driver take a hit in terms of comfort in general and suspension travel in particular. In the Harley line check the stats and more often as not the special version gives up travel in the styling bargain, not good if you actually intent to ride much. Classic Roadsters generally are better as the design does not necessitate slamming the suspension. Still tho, the quality of the suspension varies. Having owned three now (W650, 865 Bonneville, and the V7/50) I would say the iii is the best of the lot in terms of suspension. It’s not plush like a Goldwing or lazer sharp like a sport bike but it gets the job done. In matters of suspension there is no absolute, only relative truth & that specific to you and the roads you ride. Don’t rule it out, ride one & decide for yourself, the only opinion in the end that matters.