Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: izzug otom on June 24, 2018, 12:47:15 AM
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Firstly thanks for dropping in here.
I've been having issues with my 95 Cali carb model.
It started cutting out when grabbing a quick handful throttle. The problem is worse when under load.
The carbs had got gunked up through leaving shitty fuel in the tank with the fuel taps turned on ............ Yeah, I know, tell me about it, doh! :violent1:
However the damaged fuel filters inside the tank attached to then manual fuel taps have been replaced, as has the needle valves and accelerator pumps, banjo filters, O rings gakets and fibre washers etc. I've removed all the jets, atomisers etc and thoroughly cleaned everything. All jets are as stock, with the exception of the 'standard'(?) swap up to 268 atomiser from the stock 266.
I've sych'd the throttle slidesand madesure no cables are tight to the throttle and choke.
I was first looking at it being a over rich problem as the carbs inner airstream passages were blackened along with sooty black plugs, one a bit worse than the other.
The left hand side cylinder was running distinctly cooler than the right, thus apprently running richer, and the wet carb and plug made it look to be a lot richer too.
I tried it with the airfilter (which is clean) disconnected, but it made very little difference if any to the running of the bike.
On a large car park just near me I've been popping it back after testing. I must have had the carbs off and dismantled 15 times or more this past couple of weeks. Anyways, when giving a sudden handful of throttle, instead of jumping into life with the beautiful and typical low end grunt of a Guzzi, the engine does the opposite and fails to respond and fades. This doesn't happen everytime though, it varies in frequency from every fourth grab of the throttle to every other grab.
Now for something my Zen is nudging me about is that this may be an electrical issue, one that is affected when the engine is under sudden load. Then low and behold I found my mains wires going to where my ignition barrel should be, but it's missing since it was stolen and the toerags fucked the ign. barrel up, the winter before last. I had my ignition barrel mounted in a simple ally box along with the dash lights (getting rid of the aging plastic look). I never did replace the ign barrel and just have two wires there that I hook together via a solid electrical spade connecter. to bring the girl to life.
I know they call it hotwiring, but when I went to pull the connecters apart at the end of fairly short test rides, thus breaking the ignition circuit, I noticed the live wires I'm hooking up are getting quite hot to the touch.
So is this a clue to the issue I'm having, and that perhaps it's not running rich after all, but poor ignition performance under load?
So anyway, I tried the suddenly satching a handfull with the choke on, in half the maximum of the choke lever, despite the engine being warmed up, and it improved the running considerably, though not perfect. It feels like the issue comes into play when the throttle around 1/8 to 1/4 and when opening up. If I just hold the revs steady around that area, the engine will start to struggle.
So firstly, why would my ignition hotwiring be getting hot guys, any ideas. I have say that electrics isn't my hottest subject. Would it be that something isn't earthing well somewhere.
The battery is charging at a good rate, 13.7 to 14v.
I'd very much a
I'd really very much appreciate any pointers here from the Zen brigade.
If I've left anything out of the equasion here and you want any more information etc, please fire any questions my way.
Thanks in advance, Izzug
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It sounds like your using the choke test is saying, "more fuel, grasshopper." :smiley: Possibly your carb overhaul is suspect?
the hot hot wire :shocked: I'm certainly no expert on that, but I would think there is a loose/corroded connection somewhere.
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You must first, start here.
(https://thumb.ibb.co/fUpGpo/ABB6_E23_A_68_B9_424_A_BCCC_F33_D457_B0_D12.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fUpGpo)
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Sometimes if there is more than one problem it can be hard to diagnose. I once bought an 850T that ran rough. It had an idle jet with crud and a worn insulation spot on a coil wire.
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Mmmmm ...... Zen.
My carb overhaul was suspect but it ain't anymore.
It's appearing as if it's rich with wetcarbs , particularly on the left, even though I know it's not the case from the "choke test".
So I suspect the ignition is failing, particularly when under sudden load, and as a result not burning the fuel up, leaving it wet. Fair assumption no?
So I need to follow some wires and maybe test the coils, but can't find my friggin multi meter anywhere. I do have 2 spare coils, which I was pleased about when I saw the £90 per coil price tag ............ Jeez!!
I'll check stuff out and report back. I just assumed the Guzzista would be all over this with some well thought out (Zen) possibilities, and maybe common faults that have caused a similar complaint in the past, as I'm sure my Cali can't be the first one to be aflicted with such things.
Anyways, I'll report what I find for the next with a similar complaint. :boozing:
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Yes, I chased a starting problem one time where it had to be super rich to start. It was weak ignition. It taught me a very valuable lesson. I chased a fuel rich plug fouling problem on a Ducati for a long time. Weak ignition again. I was a slow learner.. :smiley:
It *could* be your problem. It is needing more fuel for whatever reason.. either ignition or something with the carburation. A poorly operating ignition system *needs* a lot of fuel.
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Any 'hot' wire is telling you that the resistance is too high for the circumstance, whether through inadequate size, poor connections, or corrosion etc. High resistance reduces voltage, and ignitions love high voltage.
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I won't talk about the repair problems.
I am here to talk about the book.
I read it for the first time when I was 21. Hated it.
Second reading in my 50's, and then I understood.
It's a favorite book now.
I recommend you get a companion "explainer" text, as it really helps in understanding the where it's coming from.
Pirsig is god. A troubled, misunderstood god, but one nonetheless. like them all.
Joe
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its been a lot of years but I liked the way he explained the duality of looking at things, one way is" what it is", the other way is "what it means"
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Yes, I chased a starting problem one time where it had to be super rich to start. It was weak ignition. It taught me a very valuable lesson. I chased a fuel rich plug fouling problem on a Ducati for a long time. Weak ignition again. I was a slow learner.. :smiley:
It *could* be your problem. It is needing more fuel for whatever reason.. either ignition or something with the carburation. A poorly operating ignition system *needs* a lot of fuel.
What he said, I am a very, very slow learner, it’s been weak ignition, incorrect timing several times.
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Dialecticism vs rhetoric. What a great book...
Coils don’t last forever. In the old days, weak spark was a common motorcycle ailment. I put AC Delco coils and ballast resistors on more than one two-stroke that fouled a lot of plugs. Even my ‘03 Triumph Bonneville benefited from a coil change after only five years. Give the spares a try...
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whether through inadequate size, poor connections
Thanks for the info, no need to get personal though :laugh:
I'm going to take a look at the electrics to see if there's any visibe problem before I get the multi meter on it.
I have the spare coils to try, but is it ever likely that the digiplex could have a fault? I gather they're pretty indestructable. I do have a spare one but its a digiplex 2s 501a whereas the Cali takes the 2s 500a. I'm assuming the 500/501 bit is relevant and they won't swap over, can anyone say for sure?
Thanks, Izzug
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Thanks for the info, no need to get personal though :laugh:
I'm going to take a look at the electrics to see if there's any visibe problem before I get the multi meter on it.
I have the spare coils to try, but is it ever likely that the digiplex could have a fault? I gather they're pretty indestructable. I do have a spare one but its a digiplex 2s 501a whereas the Cali takes the 2s 500a. I'm assuming the 500/501 bit is relevant and they won't swap over, can anyone say for sure?
Thanks, Izzug
:D
I've always taught my students that 99% of all faults can be found with nothing more than your eyes and fingers.
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I know that to be true in many things, and I get your point, but in this case I seem to be blind and unable to read brail............ :weiner:
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Similar problem in my 87 SPII with Dyna-III ignition. Would hesitate and drop one cylinder for just a second when I was pulling away from stop sign or light. Good way to get rear ended. Couldn't loan the bike to anyone and nervous riding for myself. Ran smoothly otherwise. Chased numerous carb and ignition issues for two years. Long story but I eventually found a VERY weak coil. It would spark a plug held against the outside of the motor but would not spark the same plug when installed inside the motor. Takes more amperage to spark the gap when in compressed gas/air mixture. New coils = new machine! Flawless ignition. Big improvement in fuel consumption.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
The book is hard. Three times. Love it.
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I checked through the relay, fuse and wiring from the ignition key main feed. I couldn't find anything, but the bike isn't running as bad as before, but still dies sometimes when applying medium to heavy throttle from low revs.
So maybe I've touched on something unknowingly. I'm going to run some continuity checks on my wiring, and check the primary and secondary windings on the coils, the HT leads and caps.
Does anyone know if there any particular maybe common fault areas that are worth me checking? Like common earth failure spots etc, that could affect the ignition?
Thanks guys
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As many have said, most likely an ignition problem BUT take a look at the pumper in the carb on the weak side. Its purpose is to richen the mixture when you crank onto the throttle especially at low speed.
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Thanks mate, I replaced the pump diaphrams along with all the washers, seals, needle valves when servicing the carbs.
I've swapped both coils, no difference. The readings for secondary and primary were a bit off, but not a milion miles away from the other, or the 2 spares. The HT lead and plug caps read the same around 5.5k ohms, not sure what they should read though.
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Advance mechanism sticking?
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That's taken care of by the digiplex ignition. I think the only option is to retard by 2 degrees.
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Mmm . . . . . a significant new discovery guys. I give my thoughts, and ask what it sounds like to you?
The left hand cylinder is not firing on tick over and just above.
If I adjust the idle speed screw all the way in, or a good few turns out it makes no difference. The slides are balanced and lifting at the same time.
I think this has to be heavily linked to the problems I'm having.
I'm wondering if the pilot jet circuit's small air intake channel has some sort of blockage in it preventing fuel being drawn up through the pilot jet. Does that sound logical to you guys?
Also if I open the throttle a small amount and then hold it there, after a few moments the engine rpm's continues to increase significantly. That kinda sounds like a vacuum leak, but I did test for this by gaffa taping the inlet manifold rubber boots up (which are not old and still pliable), a long with the top of the carbs, despite having fresh O'rings fitted. I'll try the WD40 trick just to see if I get an increase of revs, but I feel it's not going to be that.
I think this has to be heavily linked to the problems I'm having
I'll also swap the HT leads over, though the resistance read exactly the same in both.
Cheers, Izzug
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You said it was a momentary drop in one cylinder. I suggested a weak coil failing to spark when you add a slightly richer acceleration mixture to the combustion chamber. You swapped the coils and said the results were the same. Are you sure the same results are happening in the same cylinder? If you had an intermittent in the left and swapped the coils then you might now have moved the intermittent to the right. The results would feel the same to you. You need to verify by strobe or by substituting other known good coils. I chased mine a long time. I only found it when the coil got so weak that it stopped firing all together. It would fire in open air, but not under compression.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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You said it was a momentary drop in one cylinder. I suggested a weak coil failing to spark when you add a slightly richer acceleration mixture to the combustion chamber. You swapped the coils and said the results were the same. Are you sure the same results are happening in the same cylinder? If you had an intermittent in the left and swapped the coils then you might now have moved the intermittent to the right. The results would feel the same to you. You need to verify by strobe or by substituting other known good coils. I chased mine a long time. I only found it when the coil got so weak that it stopped firing all together. It would fire in open air, but not under compression.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
No mate, I have 2 spare coils, and swapped both coils.
The left side is the side that has felt colder consistantly, and the one where tjhe carb and plug has been distinctly more fouled up.
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Well, it's there's no blockage in the pilot jet air intake or, of course, the jet itself, and spraying liberally with WD40 didn't show up any vacuum leaks.
What could cause her not to run on the left side at very low revs?
Very unlikely to be the coil, as I've swapped them both with spare pair, and I can't imagine being unlucky enough to have the very same issue with 2 different coils.
With it just being the one side faulting, it should rule out a lot of the electrical possibilities further back down the line, so I can only imagine, if it's electrical, which I think it has to be, that it has to be in the wiring to the coil from the Digiplex, or a fault with the digiplex.
I have a spare digiplex, but the model number is slightly different. Should that still work, at least to see if it erradicates the issue? The original is model number 2s 500a, my spare (from a small block Nevada) is a 2s 501a.
Can anyone tell me if there's any danger of causing damage if I do swap them over?
Cheers Izzug
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Izzug,
I have been following this thread with interest, as I have an issue with my Le Mans III, that has some similarities. Although I have a carb model setup, PHF36 carbs, but my Le Mans has the original duel point distributor.
Here is a link to the thread that I started about my bikes problem, but I will sum up the issues that I have:
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=96780.0
Left side backfiring through the carb, when under low throttle, below 1900 rpm. Bike will not idle.
Corrections I have taken so far-
left carb, replaced needle valve, cleaned all jets main, idle etc. Cleaned both petcocks.
Replaced plugs, and plug wires. Tried switching the coils, from right to left. This produced backfiring in the right carb..
I have since ordered new coils, waiting to install. I am not thoroughly convinced that I tracked down the problem. Will know better when new coils arrive.
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Izzug,
I have been following this thread with interest, as I have an issue with my Le Mans III, that has some similarities. Although I have a carb model setup, PHF36 carbs, but my Le Mans has the original duel point distributor.
Here is a link to the thread that I started about my bikes problem, but I will sum up the issues that I have:
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=96780.0
Left side backfiring through the carb, when under low throttle, below 1900 rpm. Bike will not idle.
Corrections I have taken so far-
left carb, replaced needle valve, cleaned all jets main, idle etc. Cleaned both petcocks.
Replaced plugs, and plug wires. Tried switching the coils, from right to left. This produced backfiring in the right carb..
I have since ordered new coils, waiting to install. I am not thoroughly convinced that I tracked down the problem. Will know better when new coils arrive.
Aye John, I've been through your thread, definitely some similarities, and I feel for you, it's a very frustrating business, I'm sure you'll agree. Let's keep each other posted. :boozing:
Martin
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I read through this and I'm wondering about the hot ignition wire.
It could be entirely normal the ignition has to carry quite a current when the ignition is switched on. It would also get hot if you leave the ignition on for extended periods without firing the bike up.
Leaving the ignition on for any length of time and not having the kill switch set to off will result in the coils taking current to charge, lots of amps, it will also wreck your coils as they will overheat.
As already said by others if the wire is hot then it's carrying too much current and the hotter it gets the worse it gets.
Just a couple of things, what gauge or CSA of wire did you use when you replaced/modified the ignition barrel to a spade connection?
Check what you're battery voltage is against what the voltage you get on the pos LV of both coil connections (I'm thinking volts drop)
When you swapped coils you removed them both and physically swapped them making sure the LV connections and the HT connections are kept paired Yes? You didn't just swap over the HT leads, I don't know digiplex but in a points or non wasted spark system that would result in some interesting results and backfiring through the carb would be one of them, as well as running pretty horribly in general
On the carb side you are absolutely sure that the choke is working as it should, on my LM 1000 it looked like the choke was working but the whole thing was gummed solid on one side which resulted in some weird effects
As you seem to have gone through quite a list of stuff already, I'm assuming basics are covered the valve lash on the tappets have been checked and a compression test as been completed
If I am insulting your intelligence please forgive me as I don't know your level or competence (nor you mine :wink:)
Feel free to ignore me, most do
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I took her out for a good run yesterday to see if I could find more indication of the issues at hand, but in reality it just got more eratic, leading me to believe it must for sure be an ignition fault.
Sometimes when accelerating from low revs, the engine would cut, then I'd drop down a gear and the engine would take hold again and away she flew. Other times I'd be accelerating in a lower gear at higher revs, the engine would cut, this time stepping up a gear, thus accelerating in low revs, the bike would take hold and fly again.
Thus, two totally conflicting sets of circumstances brought about the same failure. I have to deduce from that, that what I'm looking for is an ignition fault, and doubting it's the coils themselves, as it'd be unbelievable bad luck if I swapped a dodgy coils for another with exactly the same issues. I will try swapping the old R/H one for the spare I've fitted to the problematic L/H side, but it's sop remote a chance, it's hardly worth bothering with.
When the engine dies on acceleration, it's either the left side failing and the right can't take that throttle on it's own and gets bogged down....... or both coils are not producing sufficient sparks due to a fault somewhere back in the electrics feeding them.
It's really easy for this kind of fuckery to hide itself. It will most likely be something very simple if only I could trace it. As I said above I'm no expert with electrics, but I have a multi meter and a pair of eyes.......... here goes again. :wink:
Izzug
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If it's upstream of the coils it should be very easy indeed
I'll need to look at a Cali wiring diagram, but the usual is battery to ignition switch, ignition switch to kill switch, kill switch to coils
So you have a meter tape it to the tank and fix the pos test lead to the LV pos on the coil, neg test lead to ground
Go for a run when it cuts out take a quick peek at the volts
I'm wondering faulty kill switch, I had that once on Triumph and everybody was screaming Rita ignition was to blame that's the way I found out it was the bloody kill switch
Another alternative is 2mm^2 wire minimum, flying lead from battery pos to coil pos, short run see how it behaves
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I read through this and I'm wondering about the hot ignition wire.
It could be entirely normal the ignition has to carry quite a current when the ignition is switched on. It would also get hot if you leave the ignition on for extended periods without firing the bike up.
Leaving the ignition on for any length of time and not having the kill switch set to off will result in the coils taking current to charge, lots of amps, it will also wreck your coils as they will overheat.
As already said by others if the wire is hot then it's carrying too much current and the hotter it gets the worse it gets.
Just a couple of things, what gauge or CSA of wire did you use when you replaced/modified the ignition barrel to a spade connection?
Check what you're battery voltage is against what the voltage you get on the pos LV of both coil connections (I'm thinking volts drop)
When you swapped coils you removed them both and physically swapped them making sure the LV connections and the HT connections are kept paired Yes? You didn't just swap over the HT leads, I don't know digiplex but in a points or non wasted spark system that would result in some interesting results and backfiring through the carb would be one of them, as well as running pretty horribly in general
On the carb side you are absolutely sure that the choke is working as it should, on my LM 1000 it looked like the choke was working but the whole thing was gummed solid on one side which resulted in some weird effects
As you seem to have gone through quite a list of stuff already, I'm assuming basics are covered the valve lash on the tappets have been checked and a compression test as been completed
If I am insulting your intelligence please forgive me as I don't know your level or competence (nor you mine :wink:)
Feel free to ignore me, most do
Hey not at all mate, I'm glad of all suggestions. I haven't checked for voltage drops. I assume you mean with wiring connectors to the coils pulled and testing with the ignition on?
I'm assuming frying the coils by leaving the ignition on (can that really happen, I had no idea) would show in multi meter ohms readings?
"Just a couple of things, what gauge or CSA of wire did you use when you replaced/modified the ignition barrel to a spade connection?"
I used wire a little heavier than the original. I'll post some pics a little later today.
Yeah the chokes and carbs are fine.
Yeah I swapped a spare pair of coils in, so HT and LV stayed in the correct pairing.
"So you have a meter tape it to the tank and fix the pos test lead to the LV pos on the coil, neg test lead to ground"
They're not spade connectors, they're the sealed clip in connectors, not quite sure how I can connect up to the positive whilst it's all connected up.
I haven't checked the tappets, but it's done very little mileage since they were last checked
Here's the wiring diagram :grin: http://www.guzzitek.org/schemas_electriques/gb/1100/1100California_Carbu_1994.gif
Ignore you my ass Old Jock, I like your thinking, and much appreciateyou stopping by to offer you help.
I'll go out now and try and get those readings before a mate comes round to help me fix my washing machine, which has also packed up, along with my fridge freezer, doh! :huh:
Izzug
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A bit different to what I thought but it runs from the ignition switch through the kill switch and then to the sidestand relay.
The sidestand relay is de-energized when in normal operation (typical odd Guzzi wiring) and also gives the feed to the starter solenoid, so if you can start it the relay is not doing anything abnormal
However as the fault is intermittent and not lasting too long it might be an idea to swap that relay out or over with another relay just to eliminate it and also take a look at the connections around that relay, clean and seating well, you know the drill. Although it's a bit of a forlorn hope, a relay dropping out occasionally is one thing, picking up is quite another. What I am wondering about is if the sidestand switch is dodgy and possibly just making, or the stand is rattling about just enough to occasionally trigger the switch.
You could eliminate that by pulling the grey wire off terminal 85 on relay 41 (remember to check the stand mind when you take off)
I don't know Digiplex at all, but it looks like there is also a relay in there and also a phase sensor make sure the relay is good and the phase sensor pickup is clean
Forget what I said about the coils I'm talking mince the Digiplex sort of makes the comments redundant. What you could do is tap into 87a terminal on relay 41, red and white wire going to the Digiplex and check it for voltage you could tap into it with something like a Positap or make a short fly lead with another wire coming off to monitor with the voltmeter
http://www.posi-products.com/posiplug.html (http://www.posi-products.com/posiplug.html) you can get them off Amazon a zillion time better than Scotchlocks
If you used heavier gauge on the ignition then it should be good but I still worry a little, how hot is hot...............b urny burny or just warm. It also depends on quality too (although Guzzi are no angels in that regard) As an aside I prefer thinwall cable it has a far higher current carrying capacity
You are in Blighty Yes? I'm in Jockland AES do thinwall
https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/ (https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/)
Yes if you fried the coils it would show up in a resistance check again as I know sod all about the Digiplex I don't know if it has built in protection or not, you could check if you want by leaving the ignition switch on and just feeling the coils after 5 or minutes, if there is no protection they will get warm quite quickly usually. If you want to stay on the safe side when doing any work with the ignition switch on put the kill switch to "kill"
Be interested to know how you get on
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Hi Old Jock, thanks for some useful thoughts and ideas.
"and a compression test as been completed?"
Just did this before I turned into a washing machine service man for the evening, which ended up well, I'm pleased to say, as it's now fully working again. The results on both sides were 170psi. I don't know the spec for the engine is in that regard though.
A bit different to what I thought but it runs from the ignition switch through the kill switch and then to the sidestand relay.
The sidestand relay is de-energized when in normal operation (typical odd Guzzi wiring) and also gives the feed to the starter solenoid, so if you can start it the relay is not doing anything abnormal
However as the fault is intermittent and not lasting too long it might be an idea to swap that relay out or over with another relay just to eliminate it and also take a look at the connections around that relay, clean and seating well, you know the drill. Although it's a bit of a forlorn hope, a relay dropping out occasionally is one thing, picking up is quite another. What I am wondering about is if the sidestand switch is dodgy and possibly just making, or the stand is rattling about just enough to occasionally trigger the switch.
You could eliminate that by pulling the grey wire off terminal 85 on relay 41 (remember to check the stand mind when you take off)
I don't know Digiplex at all, but it looks like there is also a relay in there and also a phase sensor make sure the relay is good and the phase sensor pickup is clean
Forget what I said about the coils I'm talking mince the Digiplex sort of makes the comments redundant. What you could do is tap into 87a terminal on relay 41, red and white wire going to the Digiplex and check it for voltage you could tap into it with something like a Positap or make a short fly lead with another wire coming off to monitor with the voltmeter
http://www.posi-products.com/posiplug.html (http://www.posi-products.com/posiplug.html) you can get them off Amazon a zillion time better than Scotchlocks
If you used heavier gauge on the ignition then it should be good but I still worry a little, how hot is hot...............b urny burny or just warm. It also depends on quality too (although Guzzi are no angels in that regard) As an aside I prefer thinwall cable it has a far higher current carrying capacity
You are in Blighty Yes? I'm in Jockland AES do thinwall
https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/ (https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/)
Yes if you fried the coils it would show up in a resistance check again as I know sod all about the Digiplex I don't know if it has built in protection or not, you could check if you want by leaving the ignition switch on and just feeling the coils after 5 or minutes, if there is no protection they will get warm quite quickly usually. If you want to stay on the safe side when doing any work with the ignition switch on put the kill switch to "kill"
Be interested to know how you get on
Thanks Old Jock.
The side stand switch has been deactivated by a previous owner, however the wiring is still in place, so I'll check the grey lead is not still connected to relay (41) in case it might be shorting somewhere.
The phase sensor I checked a couple of days ago, there wasn't any crap collected on there though. I'll check the digiplex leads and connections, as well as the relays.
I think, looking at it, I just used the original wires for hotwiring it up, so there shouldn't be a great increase in resistance. The wires get quite warm, but nowhere near too to hold by hand.
Here's the hotwiring. I made this simple dash lights holder and had the ignition barrel did fit nicely into the hole there before the thieving to erags that was stealing
I'll be sure to keep you updated mate, thanks.
https://ibb.co/cZrX9y
The only reason, I suspect, that I got her back, after the cops raided a house across town, was that they couldn't start her up. Cops charged me around �200 to collect her with my breakdown cover. When I got around to sorting her out again, it took me a day or so to find this broken pin in a connector block, connecting the main powerfeed from the loom to the ignition switch, I joined it back up using the post connectors as shown here. I assume this wouldn't cause a high resistance. Obviously thisis usually well wrapped up in ininsulation tape. I just removed the tape for the photo.
https://ibb.co/jXQE6d
Izzug
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From the pictures the wire gauge appears fine to me
The post connections look a little iffy but as long as they are secure and well crimped then they too should be fine
Don't know the correct compression either but 170 sounds good and the main thing is both sides are the same
Sure you have, but have the molex connectors have been checked and all the connections there secure?
I'm starting to struggle a little, but you could certainly try a heavyish flying lead from battery to Digiplex input to eliminate the power supplying the Digiplex, if that still produces the same effects we can eliminate all the wiring and then you'd need somebody more familiar with Digiplex to chime in as I'd be guessing and I don't do guessing when trying help others, if I've an idea I post, if I don't I'll sit on my hands
Sorry for the obvious but the battery health is good and the bike is charging Ok? All the earths especially Digiplex and battery are secure and clean?
This is getting tricky, I'm away for a think
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Cheers mate, Yeah, I'm in Blighty, Nottingham. A few of us are actually thinking of taking a tripto Scotland this summer I apreciate you chiming in with any ideas and giving it further thought, you're a gent.! I guess if I fit a flying lead which I'll do this afternoon, from battery to Digiplex, it would save chasing nothing I guess , but I guess I could have a gremlin thats tempermental.
It would still leave the wiring from alternater, rectifier and the leads that hook up to the coils to check.
I'm just going to go check the sidestand wiring that's still on the bike, and check all the digiplex connections. I know the earth is good as I removed from the frame and wire brushed the adjoining surfaces. Same with the battery's earth. I'll then make a flying lead for it and testride it. Anyone any idea if it's important that I fuse the flying lead direct from battery to digiplex?
I'll also check any wires that affect the ignition in the connector blocks, seeing as the main power supply to the ignition had broke inside the connector itself, there must be a fair chance of other damage even if not visible. I'll then have a look the kill switch and digiplex relay.
Cheers, Izzug
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A fuse is always a good idea I would guess 10 perhaps 15A
I don't know how often the fault manifests itself, but I'm oping that you can ride far enough to be reasonably certain that the lead eliminates the fault or that you actually still get the cutting out and then you can move on from there
If you are up in Jockland and anywhere near Glasgow gives us a shout and we could meet up either elsewhere or Glasgow itself
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Hey sorry, I've been ill with bug for a couple of days.
Before trying the flying lead to the electronic ignition I switched relays over. I've done this before with no joy, but this time it made a huge difference. On acceleration she never faltered, in fact she flew like she hasn't flown for a long time, everytime. Before this she'd consistantly falter.
When out on the ride I switched the relay again and she really struggled. Like and idiot I didn't note which one I'd switched and two or three of them faltered badly and I eventually found the one that worked ok......... Does that figure though, could a relay falter under the higher load of the ignition system, and not for the lights, starter etc? It doesn't make much sense to me, but that's what happened.
One thing it hasn't cleared up is the missing on idle and low revs, maybe up to an 1/8th throttle.
The miss is consistant and on the left side. On idle, it doesn't seem to matter if I turn the air mixture screw all the way in or 3 turns out on the left carb. Nor does the idle screw have any effect on the left hand side. On the right hand side it effects things as you'd expect it to.
I'll try and get a video of this made today so that the tone of the misfire can be understood by ear, rather than me try and explain it.
I'm going to try and find somewhere in town that stocks the relays, but I suspect I'll have to order them online.
Cheers Izzug
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Also Old Jock, when you say run a flying lead from the battery to the digiplex, I assume you mean to remove the exising positive feed to do this?
Cheers
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Oh, I knew there was something else. On my speedo, it has a mode for showing voltage whilst running, and when it was missfiring the voltage fluctuated from 11.4 to 12.7. When it was higher revs it was steady around 13.7.
I tested this a couple of weeks ago and it was reaching 14 with some revs and maintaining 12.7 on idle.
I'm not sure a dodgy relay can cause these issues, but that's the next step for now I guess.
Cheers Izzug
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The only relay I can think that could affect the Digiplex is the Sidestand relay that's the only one that is on the pos feed, although from Carl's diagram it's normally de-energised. There looks like some sort of relay in the Digiplex itself but I have no clue about it.
The fluctuating voltage is making me think earthing issues, check to see the reg/rec is properly earthed down as if it's not that could be the reason for the fluctuating voltage and it could play havoc with the Didgiplex electronics
I'm not sure which generator is on this, possibly the Ducati Energia single phase jobbie, you could add another earth from the mounting screw on the Reg/Rec to a known good earthing point, it's a common mod, may also help your problem and will not do any harm, 2-2.5 mm^2 CSA, in other words a beefy wire don't use anything thin.
Missing idle and no effect on air slide stop screws, I'm wondering about your carb setup and cables. Put plenty of slack in to your throttle cables to make sure the slides are dropping completely and when you pull on the throttle as soon as one lifts the other should too. When you drop the slides they should make a "clonk" when the hit the idle/slide stop screw, if a cable is pulling on one even the tiniest amount it will knock the idling all over the place. You'll probably need to remove the tubes from airbox to carbs to allow you to see the slides.
The mixture screw not sure, but I had too tight cables on my LM1000 they only lifted one slide a fraction but it played hell with the idle, once I sorted it out, I could not believe how well the bike idled after that.
Forget the fly lead for now, you would disconnect the exisiting pos feed when you do it yes, but your testing seems to be leading other directions
Any help? I've got problems of my own right now with the FI on an 1100 which is so out of whack right now I'm convinced the bike is trying to kill me
John
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Yeah I did balance the throttle slides by feel. I had someone nudge the throttle open slowly whilst I had a finger in theback of each carb, needed adjustment, checked again, all was good. I ensured there was slack in each cable and they both gave a resounding knock when letting go of the throttle, but again I'll re-check this. I did do all this with the tank off, so I guess there's a slight possibility of a snagged cable.
Yeah, I was going to check the side stand wiring too. Can it simplybe removed from the relay, as it isn't in use anyway, or does it need to maintain contact? I'm sorry if that sounds stupid, but electrics and me :cry: . EDIT:- Sorry mate, you've covered that above, just remove the grey wire from the relay. :rolleyes:
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The advance mechanism on the DigiPlex is mechanical and vacuum operated. The hose on it's vacuum feed is prone to dry rotting and leaking. Moisture gets in there and the mechanism can bind up. A fresh bit of vacuum hose and a shot of silicone lube up into the mechanism on the DigiPlex box can help. Had this issue on my first Cali III some years ago.
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The advance mechanism on the DigiPlex is mechanical and vacuum operated. The hose on it's vacuum feed is prone to dry rotting and leaking. Moisture gets in there and the mechanism can bind up. A fresh bit of vacuum hose and a shot of silicone lube up into the mechanism on the DigiPlex box can help. Had this issue on my first Cali III some years ago.
Thanks mate, the pipes are probably ready for a change anyways, but I did give the whole intake and vacuum side a thorough WD40 testing, but it didn't show anything anywhere. It'd probably affect both sides too, rather than just the left.
Cheers, Martin
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It sounds to me like it could be ignition also
Check the Voltage at the coil
Measure the resistance from the plug caps to chassis, both sides should be identical, I'm guessing 8,000 Ohms
If the spark is weak when you open the throttle the extra mixture requires a higher Voltage for the spark to jump the gap.
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Ahhh Martin you've attracted Kiwi Roy to the case, listen to him the guy REALLY REALLY know his onions when it comes to the Elek-Trickery
Good luck I'm keeping my eye on the thread from time to time
I was thinking that the drop in Volts you see from the misfire may just be attribitutable to the drop in RPMs when one side starts to cut, the revs will drop and that will reduce the generator output, so I could be leading you up the garden path there. The additional earth the Reg/Rec though is still a good idea and worth a look if it's easily accessible.
I also thought it might be an idea to measure voltage at the coil at one point so I'd defo do as Roy asks
John
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I assume this bike has a factory electronic ignition? Does it still use a typical Guzzi distributor with an electronic device and mechanical advance? Or is the ignition full electronic with nothing mechanical? It's easier for a weak ignition to fire a richer mixture ,you said it runs a bit better with the chokes on...The electronic ignition may have issues... This is assuming the "chokes" when closed are not passing extra fuel to the engine... But usually the idle will be way off normal with leaky cold start plungers.
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It sounds to me like it could be ignition also
Check the Voltage at the coil
Measure the resistance from the plug caps to chassis, both sides should be identical, I'm guessing 8,000 Ohms
If the spark is weak when you open the throttle the extra mixture requires a higher Voltage for the spark to jump the gap.
Hi Roy, I much appreciate you dropping in here. I'm going to disconnect the side stand wire from the relay and then I'll measure the voltage at the coils. I did measure the voltage there, I had to undo the LV wire connector plugs in order to get the probes from the voltmeter to connect. I can't remember what the readings were, but they seemed normal to me. However that doesn't tell you anything, so I'll take accurate readings and post them up
I checked the resistance of the coils themselves and the HT leads and caps, but not from caps to chassis. I'll do that pronto, and get the results down here.
When you say you also think it may be the ignition, I assume you mean the something on the ignition side as opposed to the digiplex unit itself? The reason I ask is that I have a spare Digiplex, but its a 2ts 501A from a Nevada small block, whereas the one fitted to my Cali is a 2ts 500A, and wondering if it might be worth a shot?
"Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since 1921" Haha, I just about peed my pants when I saw this. Electrics phase me at the best of times but I'm trying to see this as an opportunity to gain better understanding, and will be indebted to you if you can help enlighten me in any way. :wink:
Ahhh Martin you've attracted Kiwi Roy to the case, listen to him the guy REALLY REALLY know his onions when it comes to the Elek-Trickery
Good luck I'm keeping my eye on the thread from time to time
I was thinking that the drop in Volts you see from the misfire may just be attribitutable to the drop in RPMs when one side starts to cut, the revs will drop and that will reduce the generator output, so I could be leading you up the garden path there. The additional earth the Reg/Rec though is still a good idea and worth a look if it's easily accessible.
I also thought it might be an idea to measure voltage at the coil at one point so I'd defo do as Roy asks
John
Thanks mate, I do remember taking the readings voltage readings from the coils, can't remember what they were though, doh! Yes that thought ran through my mind, about the engine cutting, so might the voltage, rather than the voltage drop when missing on idle, causing the missing, ah, confusing though.
I'll PM you re visit to Scotland, we're just trying to set dates. ;) Hope you're getting somewhere with your bike's 'trying to kill you' issues....
I assume this bike has a factory electronic ignition? Does it still use a typical Guzzi distributor with an electronic device and mechanical advance? Or is the ignition full electronic with nothing mechanical? It's easier for a weak ignition to fire a richer mixture ,you said it runs a bit better with the chokes on...The electronic ignition may have issues... This is assuming the "chokes" when closed are not passing extra fuel to the engine... But usually the idle will be way off normal with leaky cold start plungers.
The only adjustment re timing is a digiplex connection to retard it by 2 degrees.
I don't think the choke plungers are the issue, but I'm not really sure how to check them for sure. It might be worth me swapping them over and see if the issues switch to the right handside. When I was getting more serious backfiring and the carb interiors were being blackened by the richness, the choke plungers did have blackening on them. I assumed with the back pressure from the backfiring would have been enough to push the plungers up.
Is there any way of checking for sure if a choke plunger is not sealing correctly, other than replacing it?
https://ibb.co/iMg6bd
https://ibb.co/bAmTpy
https://ibb.co/hYyf2J
This blackening was only there like this when opening the throttle suddenly would result in the engine dying out instead of accelerating. That appears to be cured now, just leaving the missing left side on tickover/very low revs.
I've ordered a couple of relays. One from Gutsibits, and one from AES (thanks John). I think it's the same spec, if so they're a damn sight cheaper, take a look if you're in the UK. £5.75 inc. VAT as opposed to £12.60 inc. VAT. I'll let you know if it's not the same, but it looks to be. https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/1032#flash-msg
https://www.gutsibits.co.uk/pr/TheShop/index.php?f=d&q=ELA01560
Sincere thanks to you all, Martin
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Hi there, further to my previous post.
It sounds to me like it could be ignition also
Check the Voltage at the coil
Measure the resistance from the plug caps to chassis, both sides should be identical, I'm guessing 8,000 Ohms
Hi Kiwi_Roy, the voltage at the coils is showing at 12.7v on each side.
The resistance between plug cap and chassis is 11k on the R/H and 11.18k L/H
My coils I removed from the bike gave readings of :- R/H primary 1.0 Secondary 31.80k
L/H primary 1.3 Secondary 32.50k
Stupidly, although I took readings of both coils when fitting the spares I had, I only managed to write one down for some reason, and that read:- primary 1.3, secondary 33.31k.
Does that give you anything to go on?
I've removed the side stand switch wire from the relay. I'll go take a quick ride and see if there's any difference before re earthing the rectifier......... one thing at a time so I'll hopefully be able to pinpoint the issue.
One thing I should perhaps have mentioned, although it's been the same for at least a couple of years now, is that the charge light comes on at idle. I've never been concerned about this, as I figured it must be a faulty sender, as the charging voltage shows on the replacement speedo I fitted, and has always shown what it should as far as voltage when charging or actual battery voltage when the engine is switched off. I hadn't thought to mention this though, as I've become so used to it that it didn't enter my head.
Edit, Whoops, silly me, looking at the wiring diagram, the rectifier is the sender for the charge warning light. So I need to run some checks there. As recommended by Old Jock, I'll run a fresh wire from the rectifier mounting bolt to a solid earth point. I believe I can test the rectifier and alternator with a multimeter. I'll check out how to do that on good old youtube, and get back to you with the results. :violent1:
Thanks, Martin
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12.7 should be plenty of Voltage for the coils
The Digiplex grounds out the other side of the coils so it needs to have good grounding not just fixed to the chassis, perhaps add a ground wire from battery Negative to any point that's presently grounded
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1994_California_1100.gif
Does it have the pointy European fuses as the schematic depicts
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I took her out for a good run yesterday to see if I could find more indication of the issues at hand, but in reality it just got more eratic, leading me to believe it must for sure be an ignition fault.
Sometimes when accelerating from low revs, the engine would cut, then I'd drop down a gear and the engine would take hold again and away she flew. Other times I'd be accelerating in a lower gear at higher revs, the engine would cut, this time stepping up a gear, thus accelerating in low revs, the bike would take hold and fly again.
Thus, two totally conflicting sets of circumstances brought about the same failure. I have to deduce from that, that what I'm looking for is an ignition fault, and doubting it's the coils themselves, as it'd be unbelievable bad luck if I swapped a dodgy coils for another with exactly the same issues. I will try swapping the old R/H one for the spare I've fitted to the problematic L/H side, but it's sop remote a chance, it's hardly worth bothering with.
When the engine dies on acceleration, it's either the left side failing and the right can't take that throttle on it's own and gets bogged down....... or both coils are not producing sufficient sparks due to a fault somewhere back in the electrics feeding them.
It's really easy for this kind of fuckery to hide itself. It will most likely be something very simple if only I could trace it. As I said above I'm no expert with electrics, but I have a multi meter and a pair of eyes.......... here goes again. :wink:
Izzug
This really sounds like a weak spark to me, My EV did something similar when the carbon core ignition wire went open .
Your reading of 11K from plug cap to chassis is more than I have seen, I would expect it to be more like 8,000
Can you add a 12V lamp to the coil supply to verify it's constant when the engine cuts out?
I have seen a dirty ignition switch cause a similar problem, flick it a few times to see if there is any change.
Could you post a link to the Carl Allison Drawing that best represents your bike?
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Thanks Roy, I don't know if you've read through it all, I know it's a bit long winded, but the cutting out under any sudden throttle has stopped, or appears to have done. This happened when switching relays over. The engine power is much more there now with it too.
However that still leaves me with a missfiring engine on tickover and very low revs, and on deccelaration. miss, miss, miss, miss, cough, miss, miss, miss, miss, miss,cough kind of thing. The idle screw and mixture screw on the left carb don't seem to have any affect at all on the, even though there is spare play in both throttle cables and the slides are coming down with a resounding clunk.
I'll check the ground to the digiplex, but I'm pretty sure it already meets up with an earth from the battery, but I'll double check that.
Bearing in mind the battery warning lamp staying on until a bit more revs than tickover, and although this was the case before the currents problems, do you think there's much chance the rectifier, or a bad ground to it could be causing the issue, now it seems restricted to very low revs. Or do you think I might be barking up the wrong tree there?
I've been going on the same schematics drawing of Carl's as the one you posted above. It seems accurate so far.
"Can you add a 12V lamp to the coil supply to verify it's constant when the engine cuts out?" - Not really Roy, with those sealed plug contacts, as in this photo. https://ibb.co/k5Wc1d
"I have seen a dirty ignition switch cause a similar problem, flick it a few times to see if there is any change." - There is no ignition switch since some toerags stole her. I've continued to hotwire it with male/female spade connectors. I have ensured these are a solid tight connection when testing.
If 11000 is too high, I assume it's something that's affecting both sides, making the digiplex earthing seem logica (there you go, see? I'm learning already, Only a few days ago I could see nothing logicical in electrics at all!! :laugh: ), but I'm not sure where the relay No.10 is yet and I'm guessing that, or it's connections, must be a suspect at this point too, unless my logic is running away with itself. :wink:
I have a couple of small'ish holes come through on the bottom of the silencers, could that be enough to upset the idle to this extent, and to the point of the left carb's idle screw and mixture screw not affecting the idle speed or missfire. I'd have thought not, but I'll stand to be corrected.
Thank's for your time and thoughts. :bow:
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Unless I'm doing something stupid, I really don't know what is going on at the moment, but I can't get a reading from my rectifier on any combination of poles.
If I'm correct, with the rectifier removed from the bike, and with the multi meter set to diode. Red pole of m/meter to black lead of the rectifier, black pole from m/meter to the yellow leads from rectifier, and vice versa, gives me no readings at all. Doesn't make sense as it definitely works.
It is a new very cheap multi meter, maybe the diode position doesn't work.
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The schematic shows a Ducati Energia Regulator
You should get a reading with the diode tester
Red lead to yellow, black lead to red of about 0.5 Volts
Same on the other yellow
The diodes in these regulators are between the yellow and red
Yellow---->|------Red-----|<-----Yellow
I really don't think it's a battery Voltage problem, it should run even if the battery was a bit low e.g. 10 Volts
Could you plug the muffler holes with muffler putty to see if the popping improves?
I assume you are referring to relay 10, I don't know what that's required for
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Digiplex Ignition on SPIII and Spada
On my SPIII with a Digiplex ignition, it would occasionally quite and then restart, a most dangerous situation. In an effort to fix it, I replaced the ignition relay with a SPDT relay (5 pin). With the new relay, it just wouldn't run. Upon checking, I found that the 5 pin relay is in fact a SPST relay with the center pin just another connection to the 87 pin. So what you have is two 87 pins connected (both are designated as 87, not one 87 and one 87A). On the SPIII, the center pin needs the connection to the outer pin in order for the ignition to work. I removed the connectors from the collector and tighten them up before reinstalling. Everything is now fine.
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The schematic shows a Ducati Energia Regulator
You should get a reading with the diode tester
Red lead to yellow, black lead to red of about 0.5 Volts
Same on the other yellow
The diodes in these regulators are between the yellow and red
Yellow---->|------Red-----|<-----Yellow
I really don't think it's a battery Voltage problem, it should run even if the battery was a bit low e.g. 10 Volts
Could you plug the muffler holes with muffler putty to see if the popping improves?
I assume you are referring to relay 10, I don't know what that's required for
Yeah Roy, I watched one or two youtube vids and got it set to diode, but couldn't get any reading from it. I suspect the diode part of the new cheapo m/meter isn't working as the Rec/Reg (same thing?) is clearly doing it's thing. I went in there to run a good earth from the rec/reg to the (cleaned) main chassis point to wich the Neg battery post runs to. It's also the same good earthing position for the Digiplex (you asked about that Roy). Whilst I was in there I checked the AC voltage from the alternator, and all good there, going to 80+v with some revs.
Got ya on the voltage not being the issue mate, thanks for clearing that up. :wink:
I could putty the exhaust up, but the MOT Test is due the 20th of this month and was hoping to fin someone to weld me some plate on them. The holes are at the underneath of both silencers. I'm not ure if the putty would get in the way of welding. I quite like the look of bandaged exhausts though, so that's an option I guess, but probably more expensive than having the welding done. I could maybe try the old fizzy drink can jubilee clipped over the holes for a temp test, but maybe I should just get the welding sorted out pronto.
Yeah Roy, relay 10, no wire colours to it to determine which one, though I can check which the other 4 are by checking the colours going to them. There are 5 on my fuse/relay block.
I'm taking her for a good ride tmro as I need to see my parents, so I'll report back.
Cheers Izzug
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Digiplex Ignition on SPIII and Spada
On my SPIII with a Digiplex ignition, it would occasionally quite and then restart, a most dangerous situation. In an effort to fix it, I replaced the ignition relay with a SPDT relay (5 pin). With the new relay, it just wouldn't run. Upon checking, I found that the 5 pin relay is in fact a SPST relay with the center pin just another connection to the 87 pin. So what you have is two 87 pins connected (both are designated as 87, not one 87 and one 87A). On the SPIII, the center pin needs the connection to the outer pin in order for the ignition to work. I removed the connectors from the collector and tighten them up before reinstalling. Everything is now fine.
What Charles sez. I tried to get Carl to understand the Guzzi diagrams weren't correct, but never quite got that job done. :smiley:
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Onefrom Guzzi is on the left. I can't figure the little shitty diagrams, can anyone say if the one on the right is on the same layout as the Guzzi one?
Thanks
relays photo
https://ibb.co/fZsybd
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The resistance between plug cap and chassis is 11k on the R/H and 11.18k L/H
My coils I removed from the bike gave readings of :- R/H primary 1.0 Secondary 31.80k
L/H primary 1.3 Secondary 32.50k
Stupidly, although I took readings of both coils when fitting the spares I had, I only managed to write one down for some reason, and that read:- primary 1.3, secondary 33.31k.
Does that give you anything to go on?
The resistance doesn't add up from cap to chassis should be the greatest as it's the sum of cap, lead and coil.
Switch the meter leads around also, any difference points to a corroded connection creating a cell.
relays photo
https://ibb.co/fZsybd
Yes the relays are the same, just different make
I'm thinking less and less about electrical
The mixture screw should make a difference, perhaps it has a blocked passage
You should balance the carbs again, one way is to use a drill bit under the slide as a gauge, both sides the same but if you have ports for a "U" tube manometer just make one from plastic tube and some engine oil
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I really don't know how you have the patience for this. If it were me, I would have fitted a points dizzy and got a pair of good quality car coils, new copper wire leads and be done with it.
I did that to my Cali when the ignition started to play funny buggers and after it was always rock solid. But I'm a grumpy old man.
And you izzug otom are a backwards kinda guy.
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The resistance doesn't add up from cap to chassis should be the greatest as it's the sum of cap, lead and coil.
Switch the meter leads around also, any difference points to a corroded connection creating a cell.
relays photo
https://ibb.co/fZsybd
Yes the relays are the same, just different make
I'm thinking less and less about electrical
The mixture screw should make a difference, perhaps it has a blocked passage
You should balance the carbs again, one way is to use a drill bit under the slide as a gauge, both sides the same but if you have ports for a "U" tube manometer just make one from plastic tube and some engine oil
Thanks Roy. I think changing the relay instantly cured the opening throttle and engine dying. I switched a couple over and not sure if it was the side stand relay or the digiplex relay. Ayway I have a couple more to play with. Thanks for ID'ing them as the same. I spent a good while trying to figure it out. I've obviously got a lot of Moto Guzzi schooling in electrics to go yet. :wink:
I'll switch M/meter leads over and try the plug cap to chassis resistance again. It's reading virtually the same each side, seeing as it's effecting both equally would that narrow it down to an earth somewhere.
I see what you mean with the figures not adding up. That's my fault Roy, I'm sorry. The coils' figures have the decimal place out :violent1:. They were reading 3,180 and 3,250 (3k+, not 31 and 32k)
I'll rebalance the carbs, yeah I usually use a couple zipties instead of drill bits. I had a pair of vacuum guages, until I lent them to a friend. I'm thinking of buying another set, but I'm intrigued by the home made manometer, I'll check that out on youtube, thanks.
By ports do you mean the screws into the inlet manifold Roy?
I can't understand the holees in the exhaust being responsible for so much difference and just on one side, both sides have holes in the silencers. I've had carb cleaner through all the orifices and jets, etc. and was very thorough. However I am wondering about the choke plunger. I can't see anyway of checking them in situ, so maybe swapping them over will make the miss, cough 'n splutter swap sides.
Having said that, I wonder if there's a way if checking leaking with the float bowl off. Any ideas, per chance? It would explain being very rich on the left, and possibly too much fuel running through, therefore the idle and very low revs might not be affected by richening or weakening via the mixture screw, and possibly the idle screw can't raise the slide enough to let adequate air in to compensate. Does that make much sense?
Cheers, Martin
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I really don't know how you have the patience for this. If it were me, I would have fitted a points dizzy and got a pair of good quality car coils, new copper wire leads and be done with it.
I did that to my Cali when the ignition started to play funny buggers and after it was always rock solid. But I'm a grumpy old man.
And you izzug otom are a backwards kinda guy.
Ah but what if you then found it was the side stand switch or a simple dodgy relay.
"And you izzug otom are a backwards kinda guy." Hahahaha! :grin: :grin: :grin:
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I see what you mean with the figures not adding up. That's my fault Roy, I'm sorry. The coils' figures have the decimal place out :violent1:. They were reading 3,180 and 3,250 (3k+, not 31 and 32k)
By ports do you mean the screws into the inlet manifold Roy?
Having said that, I wonder if there's a way if checking leaking with the float bowl off. Any ideas, per chance? It would explain being very rich on the left, and possibly too much fuel running through, therefore the idle and very low revs might not be affected by richening or weakening via the mixture screw, and possibly the idle screw can't raise the slide enough to let adequate air in to compensate. Does that make much sense?
Of course I should have figured that out
3K for the coils + 5 K for the caps = 8K so there's still 3K left
Has it got those shitty carbon leads as well?
No I meant the passageways inside the carb
I don't know much about carbs
Yes the float level might account for it, my buddy with Kawasakis has little plastic tubes he attaches to check the float levels.
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HT leads and caps were the same at 5.5k Roy.
Sorry I meant about the manifold screws in relation to the manometer. I get you about the passage ways maybe blocked, but I've stripped the carbs, clewaned them thouroughly and spraayed carb cleaner through and checked every orrifice had its squirting through. However, as I'm going to take the backs off to balance, i'll strip them another time and check them against each other, in case I've missed a hole or something.
I'm just back from a 100mile ride. She;s still not behaving. Although she gets wound up really good and flying, some of the acceleration curve is flat in places. But the mixture screw on the left carb seemes to make a difference to flat spots when caning the throttle, rather than just the first 1/4 , very odd. The idle screw made a very slight difference today, though the engine probably got a good bit hotter today.
However, the hot wire, wow did it get hot, to the point where it'd burn to hold it. I nearly headed back due to it, I was half way there when I noticed, but the by fluke, realised it only gets hot with the headlights on. Also, funny things happened with my speedo too, it kept jumping from voltage to KMH, to MPH, uncontrollably too. The rear mode button did nothing to help settle it. So I don't quite know what to think about it. So that's what I'm going to do now, food and think about it. Shorting somewhere I guess. I should be able to check for voltage drain with the positive battery lead, but disconnected from the battery. I saw it on a youtube the other day. I can't feel any heat anywhere else, handlebar switches, fuses and relays etc, though I haven't been able to check much as I tried to do most of the ride in daylight.
I'll take the tank off. It's time I checked all those connections in the blocks with a m/meter for continuity, and have a go at things, look for bad earths or a short around the jumble of wires behind the improvised dash lights box.
Now I'm not sure this is anything to do with my running issues, though, but as the ignition switch wires are affected, so I need to at least erradicate the this problem, from the maddening mess. Humph, oh well.
Thanks guys, Martin
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Hi there, I've been trying to figure out why the ignition hotwired connection gets hot when the headlights are on. I've found the wiring diagam confusing, as there are two parts of the wiring which are listed with the same number "item 4". It's at the very top left of the wiring diagram and then it's also here again just below in the area with the dash warning lamps.
Edit :- The item I'm referring to top left No.4 should read No.14, the flasher switch. Nothing to do with my problems.
http://www.guzzitek.org/schemas_electriques/gb/1100/1100California_Carbu_1994.gif
I did wonder if it was the spade connected hot wire I have in place of the ignition switch, but I guess I can rule that out as it only gets hot with the lights on. I can't for the life of me work out where the fault might lie regarding the wire getting hot I can't find anything obvious. I'm not really sure this can haave anything to do with the running of te engine, as I have the same running issues with lights on or off.
The speedo going nutz with the mode setting is a new one, it's the first time for that, which continued faulting when the lights were switched off.
I'm very confused by it all at the moment, I seem to be fighting two issues here and not really sure if they could be connected somehow.
Any thoughts greatly appreciated.
Cheers, Martin
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Hi there, I've been trying to figure out why the ignition hotwired connection gets hot when the headlights are on. I've found the wiring diagam confusing, as there are two parts of the wiring which are listed with the same number "item 4". It's at the very top left of the wiring diagram and then it's also here again just below in the area with the dash warning lamps.
Edit :- The item I'm referring to top left No.4 should read No.14, the flasher switch. Nothing to do with my problems.
http://www.guzzitek.org/schemas_electriques/gb/1100/1100California_Carbu_1994.gif
I did wonder if it was the spade connected hot wire I have in place of the ignition switch, but I guess I can rule that out as it only gets hot with the lights on. I can't for the life of me work out where the fault might lie regarding the wire getting hot I can't find anything obvious. I'm not really sure this can haave anything to do with the running of te engine, as I have the same running issues with lights on or off.
Not quite sure if I follow Martin, but as to your hot wired connection getting hot with the lights on.
I haven't spent to much time on it and could have it wrong, but are we talking with the engine running or just with the ignition switch (spade) connected and the engine stationary?
Looking at the diagram and it's the same for a lot of Tontis, the power is taken from the battery down to the starter, black wire, 36, the connection is commoned up there to two reds one to Reg/Rec one to the ignition switch terminal 33, so with the engine off all power flows through the ignition switch before going to the fuse box on terminal 75/?? (cannot make it out) I'm wondering if your wire getting hot is simply because you are pulling more current.
As stated before a wire getting hot means it's CSA is not sufficient for the current it's being required to carry, although the photo you posted looked ok to me, I cannot tell for sure. It could be dirty/corroded connections also. It's not a short otherwise the fuse would blow.
Check the Molex and make sure all your fuse box and fuse connections are clean and tight
When the engine is running at a bit above idle the load should get taken off the ignition switch by the generator
That's the way I'm reading it, Roy will possibly chime in to confirm/deny my hypothesis
John
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I agree John, must be a bad connection in the spade connectors, the wire looks to be beefy enough
https://ibb.co/cZrX9y
This must be causing Low Voltage on the ignition wouldn't you say?
IO, you need to fix that switch, I'm sure the flakey Voltage is causing your speedo to change gears as well
Heat is Current squared x Resistance
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Yes Roy I concur there is something going on with that feed through the ignition
As Roy states this will lead to Volts drop and the hotter the wire the worse it gets, its a downward spiral
If the volts drop is bad it can lead to all sorts of mayhem with the electrics and ultimately the running of the bike, including your dash and God knows what it's doing with the Digiplex.
I think the best plan is fix that then move on from there, at best it's adding to your problems.
Eliminate it and then see how the bike is behaving.
John
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Not quite sure if I follow Martin, but as to your hot wired connection getting hot with the lights on.
I haven't spent to much time on it and could have it wrong, but are we talking with the engine running or just with the ignition switch (spade) connected and the engine stationary?
I'm wondering if your wire getting hot is simply because you are pulling more current.
John
Yes John, with the engine on or off, when the spade (ign switch) is connected and headlights on it heats up.
I don't really understand what could cause "pulling more current", could you explain?
Sorry I really struggle with electricity, I can read the wire colours and trace them, but beyond that I have very little understanding of what they actually do, other than knowing the very basics, such as live feeds and earths :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu
I agree John, must be a bad connection in the spade connectors, the wire looks to be beefy enough
https://ibb.co/cZrX9y
This must be causing Low Voltage on the ignition wouldn't you say?
IO, you need to fix that switch, I'm sure the flakey Voltage is causing your speedo to change gears as well
Heat is Current squared x Resistance
Do you mean fix the connecting two wires to something better than these spade connectors Roy?
I can't get over the price of a Guzzi ignition switch, even second hand, my funds are low for the time being, hence the spade connection.
Thanks for bearing with me on this, I'm in a bit of a spin, and I'm probably not as focussed as I could be, despite trying, as my parent's suddenly made request to be moved into a care home a few days ago, so my 2 bros and I have been busy with that....... just when I could really do with my bike being reliable, as they live 45 miles away.
Cheers, Martin
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When it comes to replacing my spade connectors with a switch, are generic key ignition switches such as this suitable guys?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/LOVELIFEAST-Stainless-Ignition-Button-Durable/dp/B019I06XS0/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_2?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1531175509&sr=1-2-fkmr1&keywords=motorbike+12v+ignition+key+switch
Thanks, Mart
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Update
Yes that switch looks ok is the hole in dash 19mm?
Replace both the crimp connectors with new ones
Read my comment at bottom regarding possible short to chassis
Earlier
The ignition probably draws (pulls) about 3 Amps
The headlight. say 60 Watt bulb draws (pulls) 5 Amps
So with the lights on you are "Pulling more current" than with just the motor running
You have a bad connection with the arrangement you have, that's why it's getting hot, it's also dropping the Voltage downstream and playing havoc with your electronics.
I suggest finding a 10 Amp automotive toggle switch until you can find another ignition, it will be just as secure.
BTW
If you accidentally short the spade connector to chassis you can easily get 100 or more Amps that will burn the wire up, I like to add a 40 Amp in-line "Main fuse" where it leaves the battery or in this case the starter terminal.
If you connect the two wires at the switch you could just use the out of sight fuse I suggest as a security device
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Update
Yes that switch looks ok is the hole in dash 19mm?
Replace both the crimp connectors with new ones
Read my comment at bottom regarding possible short to chassis
Earlier
The ignition probably draws (pulls) about 3 Amps
The headlight. say 60 Watt bulb draws (pulls) 5 Amps
So with the lights on you are "Pulling more current" than with just the motor running
You have a bad connection with the arrangement you have, that's why it's getting hot, it's also dropping the Voltage downstream and playing havoc with your electronics.
I suggest finding a 10 Amp automotive toggle switch until you can find another ignition, it will be just as secure.
BTW
If you accidentally short the spade connector to chassis you can easily get 100 or more Amps that will burn the wire up, I like to add a 40 Amp in-line "Main fuse" where it leaves the battery or in this case the starter terminal.
If you connect the two wires at the switch you could just use the out of sight fuse I suggest as a security device
Thanks Roy and John.
That gives me a bit of a better understanding of things
Ok so tmro, firstly I'll fit new spade connectors to the two red wires, and see if it makes a difference. (I have wire brushed them).
Then order an ignition with the correct diameter fit for the dash. I've just found a second hand guzzi unit for about £15 with 6 months g'tee, or brand new for £30, so not as bad as I thought. I'll order one or the other tmro mornin, and should arrive the following day.
I'll also order a 40amp inline fuse and do as you suggest there, thanks.
Do you mean to permanently connect the switch wires Roy, and use the hidden fuse effectively as the switch, or do you mean just for an added precaution? I'm aware that may be a stupid question :wink:
Yes I've accidentally caught the live spade to the dash housing, the crackle and sparks have always ensured it's been the for briefest of moments though. I'll check the positive all the way back and see if there's any chaffing on the wire anywhere, or other possible shorting to chassis.
Along with that I'll check all the molex connectors, and the wires and connections to the relays and fuses. They all seem tight to the touch, but I'll remove the block from the bike and disconnect and clean up each individual connection.
Thanks again guys, I'll report back my findings ASAP.
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Hi Martin
Roy will chime in but I'm in total agreement with the fuse its a very good idea.
The fuse is simply there as a protective device and should be installed as close after the battery as practicable.
Probably in this case assuming the wiring diagram is correct, on the red wire after it leaves the starter terminals and heads up towards the dash. Place an in line type fuse down near the starter, where it's convenient to get to but not subject to splashing road grime etc:
Something like this
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/STANDARD-CAR-AUTO-BIKE-BOAT-INLINE-BLADE-FUSE-HOLDER-12-VOLT-30-AMP-SPLASHPROOF/282568763817?epid=23017011962&hash=item41ca6929a9:g:V~IAAOSwlXhZZipJ (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/STANDARD-CAR-AUTO-BIKE-BOAT-INLINE-BLADE-FUSE-HOLDER-12-VOLT-30-AMP-SPLASHPROOF/282568763817?epid=23017011962&hash=item41ca6929a9:g:V~IAAOSwlXhZZipJ)
Fuses only protect faults occurring upstream (obviously) so you want it as near to the battery as you can to provide maximum circuit protection
The ignition switch should be used to stop/start the bike (or make/break that circuit), the fuse is only there for protection
Hope that helps a little
John
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As a sparky I'm appalled by the way Guzzi ran so much un-fused wiring direct from the battery on the older bikes.
Your bike has a red wire from the starter terminal all the way to ignition switch and back to the fuse block. If this was to touch the chassis along the way it would be red hot in seconds melting the insulation off any other wire in the loom it touches to make a dreadful mess.
John is right if you add a 40 Amp fuse at the starter, or you might like to combine it with the other red wire that goes from the battery to headlight relay, just one fuse at battery or starter, it should never blow but it makes a convenient way of disconnecting the battery.
I think I would leave the wire from the regulator as is in this case.
I added this "Main fuse" to several older Guzzis I have owned.
The large wire from the battery to the starter is also un-fused, that's ok it is large enough that if it gets shorted the battery will be drained before it can do much harm.
BTW, Guzzi have a history of grounding the battery to the steel frame or some other unreliable point, I would make sure it's connected to a gearbox bolt or at least clean and grease the connection point.
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Thanks guys, I've ordered a new Guzzi ignition key switch, should arrive on Thursday. In the meantime I'm going to change the spade connectors already in place for new ones and see if I can get any where with it.
I'm just in the process of cleaning all the connecions and checking they're tight, also checking each one for continuity. I haven't found anything a miss so far. I'm assuming the likely suspects are the ignition and lighting circuits? Is there an effective way that I can test the handlebar kill switch, I guess that's another possibility.
It'd be easier if I could remove the whole fuse/relay block from the frame, but one of the two bolts holding it to the bike is really difficult to get to, the other side being right up against the air filter box. I could get it off, but I'd never be able to hold the nut in place again for bolting back up again. If there's one place for having a fixed nut it's surely here, doh!
The lights issue heating the wires up isn't an intermittent issue, is there a m/meter test I can do to try and better track down the fault?
I'm looking to buy an inline fuse holder from Amazon prime (next day delivery), but they all seem to be 16 AWG (I don't understand the AWG numbers, wire guage rating?) 30amp maximum current rating, I can't find a 40amp one. Will a 30amp suffice, or do I need to get a 40amp fitted Roy.
Yeah Roy, my old Nevada suffered a meltdown in the wiring loom, fusing many wires into a big gloopy mess. I had the bike totally rewired after that, so yes, thanks I can see the sense in the fuse shortly after leaving the starter, and it seems nutz that Guzzi don't have that as standard, it's not rocket science even for and electrical newbie like myself. I'm assuming this isn't anything to do with the issues I'm facing, but a precaution against further, more serious damage?
"I think I would leave the wire from the regulator as is in this case." However I don't understand why the live running to the reg/rect is any less of a danger. Is it because it doesn't interfere with the general wiring of the bike?
"BTW, Guzzi have a history of grounding the battery to the steel frame or some other unreliable point, I would make sure it's connected to a gearbox bolt or at least clean and grease the connection point." It is earthed to the frame Roy, the same connection as the digiplex earth, and now a direct earth from the Reg/Rect, although I'm not sure the wire gauge is suitably heavy enough, I ordered it online and obviously got it wrong. I'll order some more, or pick some up from a local car maintenance shop and replace. The original reg/rect earth is still in place though. I've given the surface of the frame and all connections a very thorough wire brushing, and smeared them with copper grease. I'll definitely consider earthing to the gearbox bolt once I've got the issues in hand sorted.
Your support here is very much appreciated. I'll get back with any progress ASAP.
Cheers, Mart
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Martin,
I'm not convinced you have a fault with your lighting, it seems more like the normal current is causing the heat due to resistance in the contact between the 2 spade connectors, if there was no resistance you would get no heat.
With the light On you probably have double the current of without light but the heat generated is a square relationship
The 30Amp fuse and 16 gauge wire will be fine, the table I have suggests 16 Gauge is ok for about 2 feet at 30 Amps, your normal current will only be 10 or less. If you get an accidental short the fuse will save you from the Nevada mess.
I made a mistake before in saying the other red wire feeds the light relay, it actually goes to the bottom fuse which I think has something to do with the 4 way flasher switch, you decide if you want to include it in the new fuse.
Some of the earlier Guzzis used the pointy European fuses, if you bike has those it's a good idea to polish up the ends and spend some time tightening up all the connections. I think Mr Pirsig would approve.
I suggested leaving the regulator because the battery clamps the generator Voltage down if it were connected with the ignition to the fuse and the fuse were to blow the Voltage could easily spike to 60 or more, also you have the same charge setup as the VII series bikes, they are famous for burning up the 30 Amp charge fuse where fitted again due to poor contact between the fuse and fuse-holder the fuse plastic melts due to heat, the fuse doesn't blow, I suspect charging spikes may be over 40 Amps.
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Hi guys, the more I look the more dumbfounded I become, but I'm trying to get to grips with it.
Martin,
I'm not convinced you have a fault with your lighting, it seems more like the normal current is causing the heat due to resistance in the contact between the 2 spade connectors, if there was no resistance you would get no heat.
With the light On you probably have double the current of without light but the heat generated is a square relationship
Ok Roy, I get you there. I've removed the spade connectors. I opened the can of worms and see that I've made (a very untidy) link between wires here, and the short link I've made from that connection to the spade connecting the ignition is significantly narrower guage than the original Guzzi wire. I don't know if that in itself is an issue. There is plenty of spare length of the original Guzzi mains wire to take a section out and use that instead of the narrow guage piece now in use. Problem is I've run out of large crimp connectors to connect it all back up, and with them being beefy wires it will need a large one to hold them. Are these crimp connectors a good idea generally, or am I better to use an alternative. I did check for resistanceacrossthe spade connection and the undidy conection with m/meter but I couldn't detect any.
(https://preview.ibb.co/gbjrNT/DSCF2770.jpg) (https://ibb.co/e38J2T)
(https://preview.ibb.co/etSLhT/DSCF2779.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bZZ0hT)
The 30Amp fuse and 16 gauge wire will be fine, the table I have suggests 16 Gauge is ok for about 2 feet at 30 Amps, your normal current will only be 10 or less. If you get an accidental short the fuse will save you from the Nevada mess
Some of the earlier Guzzis used the pointy European fuses, if you bike has those it's a good idea to polish up the ends and spend some time tightening up all the connections. I think Mr Pirsig would approve.
Cool, I'll get the 30amp ordered pronto.
This one uses 'blade' fuses. ............ I dare say Mr Pirsig would be quite disparaging of my ability. :whip2:
I suggested leaving the regulator because the battery clamps the generator Voltage down if it were connected with the ignition to the fuse and the fuse were to blow the Voltage could easily spike to 60 or more, also you have the same charge setup as the VII series bikes, they are famous for burning up the 30 Amp charge fuse where fitted again due to poor contact between the fuse and fuse-holder the fuse plastic melts due to heat, the fuse doesn't blow, I suspect charging spikes may be over 40 Amps.
I knew there'd be good reason, thanks. :wink:
How are the wires connected to the fuse and relay block. They all seem tight eough on the tug test, is there any other way I can test these contacts. Like are they spade connectors that I can pullout? I didn't want to risk justyanking them before I asked.
(https://preview.ibb.co/ckPahT/DSCF2719.jpg) (https://ibb.co/m9fsU8)
Also these Molex connectors. How can we test these, the probes of my multi meter don't seem to make any contact here. Is it just a matterof pulling them to give visual inspection, plus tugging on the wires to seek anything loose?
(https://preview.ibb.co/mPfsU8/DSCF2781.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cGpVGo)
I don't seem to have got very far I'm afraid.
I've had the battery disconnected whilst fiddling around so I'll connect that back up and old style twist the two ignition switch wires together, switch the lights on and see if it still gets hot.
Cheers, Mart
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It seems more like the normal current is causing the heat due to resistance in the contact between the 2 spade connectors, if there was no resistance you would get no heat.
With the light On you probably have double the current of without light but the heat generated is a square relationship
Absolutely right guys. A simple twist of the wires and there's no heat when the lights are switched on. :bow:
I figured spade connectors are pretty much standard, and despite wire brushing them and making sure it's a tight fit, I can see this one has failed. Would this most likely be due lack of connectivity? I tried to read it for resistance with the m/meter but got no reading....... sorry, just trying to understand things properly as I go. :smiley:
I've checked the best I can with visual and tug tests on the wiring connections at the fuse/relay block and the molex multi connectors. I'll put the tank etc back on later today and see if the spade connector is responsible for the poor running of the bike.
Do you know if there's much chance this may have caused damage to the digiplex unit itself?
The other thing I've just noticed which I find very odd is that, on the wiring diagram it shows a yellow and black wire exiting from a '-' terminal from the Rev Counter/Rev Counter Bulb (Diagram item No.5), into a molex connector , then all the way to a connection in the digiplex.
I removed the rev counter ages ago, without realising a wire from it was hooked up to the digiplex. This was done a long time before any of the current problems were apparent, but I assume this must have a bearing on the digiplexes workings somehow of course, why else would it be there. I just capped the ends off with insulating tape.
Have you any ideas on that guys? Or what I should hook it up to? It looks like an earth as far as I can make out, but why that would run to the digiplex leaves me perplexed or digiperplexed. :shocked:
Thanks, Mart
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Full marks to you Martin for your thoroughness
IMHO any poor connections or/and thinner gauge (or CSA if you prefer) is a big deal and will introduce resistance and therefore heat............... .Bad!!!
The negative connection from Digiplex to rev counter is most likely a pulsed negative to provide a drive for the rev counter. If it's not used just insulate it and tuck it out the way.
I don't think you will have done any damage to the Digiplex, I cannot be certain but don't over think this or get too concerned.
The normal method to connect the wires on the loom are crimp connectors, now there are crimps & there are crimps...........So rry, what I am trying to tell you is that crimping a connector is a good way to obtain a low resistance connection (what you want). IF it's done correctly, personally I am not a big fan of the insulated type shown in your photo. Perhaps it's just me but I have had way more dodgy connections over the years with them than with the non-insulated type, to which a sleeve is slipped on after the connection has been made.
Next what are you using to crimp them on? Please do not say pliers, the most common type used are the single crimp multi pliers, something like these
(https://wickes.scene7.com/is/image/travisperkins/largeNormal/Pliers-Wickes-Electrical-Wire-Crimping-Tool-250mm~T3274_500070_00?defaultImage=travisperkins/missing-product)
Better to purchase a proper tool, ideally a ratchet type but if cost is a limiting factor something like this type is very good and I frequently use that sort of tool
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Electrical-Terminal-Crimp-Plier-Crimper-Wire-Stripper-Crimping-Tool-22-12-AWG-/283049297988 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Electrical-Terminal-Crimp-Plier-Crimper-Wire-Stripper-Crimping-Tool-22-12-AWG-/283049297988)
Just to add the the tools for insualted and non-insulated connectors are different.
Don't get too hung up on resistance checking, just make sure the terminal is secure and clean and the fit is tight
I don't want to start a discourse on other types of connections, the most common other way to connect wires is twisting and soldering, soldering has it downsides too, the solder connection is rigid and therefore more brittle and prone to breaking. However if used on a straight section where the wire is properly supported it works a treat.
Finally I also like all the Posi products, simple and effective the downside is they are a bit large, so if you only have one connection to make then they are great, but multiple connections in a tight space less so.
http://www.posi-products.com/index.html (http://www.posi-products.com/index.html)
You can get them from E-Bay or Amazon
A good rule with wiring is if in doubt go up a size and the wire I use is thinwall, this stuff is way superior to the stuff you'll get down the corner autoshop
https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/70/category/114 (https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/70/category/114)
On that topic Auto Electrical Supplies is where I get most of my stuff, price and range is pretty good
Finally rather than use electrical tape purchase some shrink sleeve and use that, better properties and no icky mess later on down the line and will not come unfurl and cause you grief later
Did I answer all the concerns?
Roy will be on later to confirm or confound my answer (and mark me, I'm aiming for B+ but we shall see)
John
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You have seen what happens with a bad electrical joint, it gets hot. If you can why not remove the short tails you have added and terminate the original wires directly on the new switch with the appropriate connectors.
If the original wires are too short you could extend them even with a short length of smaller gauge. I’m not familiar with how they rate wire in your part of the world but a suitable metric wire would be about 1.3 mm square(16 AWG) or greater
As John says, there are crimps and there are crimps
Insulated crimps are ok if they are done right, I prefer the sort of crimp tool that puts a significant dent in the rear of the connector not the ones that just make it oval shaped, if it’s anywhere damp I will dip the wires in Vaseline first so they don’t corrode inside the connector. I may be wrong but the wires you are holding look discoloured, perhaps that is where the heat was coming from.
https://www.amazon.ca/4-Inch-Crimping-Cutting-Insulated-Non-Terminals/dp/B0006M6Y5M?th=1&psc=1&source=googleshopping&locale=en-CA&tag=googcana-20&ref=pd_sl_7sr4hytskg_e Unless you are an electrician it’s hard to justify the expense.
I asked about your fuse block, my California II had the European type that sat between a couple of brass clips, they are awful IMHO yours look like ATC blade type fuses, certainly well oiled LOL, I don’t think you will have a problem with those.
The contacts are removable, it’s just figuring out how and which special tool to use.
You probably won’t be able to measure the resistance with a multimeter, the way to measure joint resistance is to pass a known current through it and measure the Voltage drop and then calculate using Ohm’s law, but what’s the point best to just fix it.
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Hey thanks John.
I have a couple of pairs of crimping pliers, for both insulated and non insulated, as shown in your picture, except red handles.
I've ordered these 3.9mm bullet connectors with waterproof covers, I assume my crimping pliers will not work affectively with these then?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B072V3S7HH/ref=pe_3187911_189395841_TE_dp_1
They should arrive today between 6pm and 10pm.
I haven't tried my bike yet of course to see if it's helped with my running issues, but I've got my fingers crossed that this has been the issue. As soon as I'm able to connect it up, hopefully this evening, I'll give it a go and report back.
Whoops, I thought I'd posted this ages ago, sorry. The bullet connectors have arrived, they're not very beefy though. My inline fuse holder and my Guzzi ignition switch should arrive tmro though, so I'll hang on til then and fit the the new ignition.
Cheers for now, Mart
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You have seen what happens with a bad electrical joint, it gets hot. If you can why not remove the short tails you have added and terminate the original wires directly on the new switch with the appropriate connectors.
If the original wires are too short you could extend them even with a short length of smaller gauge. I�m not familiar with how they rate wire in your part of the world but a suitable metric wire would be about 1.3 mm square(16 AWG) or greater
As John says, there are crimps and there are crimps
Insulated crimps are ok if they are done right, I prefer the sort of crimp tool that puts a significant dent in the rear of the connector not the ones that just make it oval shaped, if it�s anywhere damp I will dip the wires in Vaseline first so they don�t corrode inside the connector. I may be wrong but the wires you are holding look discoloured, perhaps that is where the heat was coming from.
https://www.amazon.ca/4-Inch-Crimping-Cutting-Insulated-Non-Terminals/dp/B0006M6Y5M?th=1&psc=1&source=googleshopping&locale=en-CA&tag=googcana-20&ref=pd_sl_7sr4hytskg_e Unless you are an electrician it�s hard to justify the expense.
I asked about your fuse block, my California II had the European type that sat between a couple of brass clips, they are awful IMHO yours look like ATC blade type fuses, certainly well oiled LOL, I don�t think you will have a problem with those.
The contacts are removable, it�s just figuring out how and which special tool to use.
You probably won�t be able to measure the resistance with a multimeter, the way to measure joint resistance is to pass a known current through it and measure the Voltage drop and then calculate using Ohm�s law, but what�s the point best to just fix it.
Thanks Roy.
I thought some of that was original wiring guys, but I remember what I did, it's a bit of a bodge job, no wonder I wanted to forget it, lol, but I'm afraid the wires are all too short, they were cut by the toerags that stole her from the front of my house. I'll have no alternative but to add short extentions with the waterproof, non insulated bullet connectors that came through today.
I'll be sure to coat them in vasolene, or would copper grease work ok for this application Roy?
Yes, the wiring I used to extend the 4 ignition wires, is some old wire, I don't know where I got it, or when. I think some of the discolouring is from thew white'ish grey build up from the corroding alloy of my makeshift dash box. You can see it looks a bit of a mess in there, no doubt worse for not having the ignition barrel hole plugged. I'll give it a good squirt of WD40 when I put it back together, and yes I'll replace all of the tails that are currently in place, with fresh ones, hopefully to a much better standard, ahem!
Here are the ignition wires, Red, Brown, Green and White as per the wiring diagram, and I've used the same insulated crimp connectors to extend them all with the 4 chunky Red wires.
(https://preview.ibb.co/h3bpST/DSCF0512_2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kODsgo)
<a target='_blank' href='https://poetandpoem.com/sick'>sick poetry[/url]
(https://preview.ibb.co/hPW67T/DSCF0516.jpg) (https://ibb.co/c0SeST)
I don't like the ignition key set up so there's a middle 'ign off' position and then another notch anticlockwise leaves it 'ign off' but with 'side lights on' ............ doh, flat batteries! How would I connect the wiring to avoid this? Would I be right to assume it's by moving the green wire to the brown wire terminal of the ignition switch?
http://www.guzzitek.org/schemas_electriques/gb/1100/1100California_Carbu_1994.gif
I kinda hope I don't have to do that much electrics that it's worth me buying a $44 worth of criping pliers :rolleyes: I have a couple of sets like the ones John posted a pic of, one set are quite good quality, the others are terrible. There are cheap crimp pliers and there are cheap crimp pliers too :wink: .
I'm eager to find out if this has solved my running issues.
Cheers, Mart
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Next what are you using to crimp them on? Please do not say pliers, the most common type used are the single crimp multi pliers, something like these
(https://wickes.scene7.com/is/image/travisperkins/largeNormal/Pliers-Wickes-Electrical-Wire-Crimping-Tool-250mm~T3274_500070_00?defaultImage=travisperkins/missing-product)
Better to purchase a proper tool, ideally a ratchet type but if cost is a limiting factor something like this type is very good and I frequently use that sort of tool
Just to add the the tools for insualted and non-insulated connectors are different.
John
Ah, so I think I misunderstood, you John. Are you saying the crimping pliers in the photo on your above post (the blue Wickes one) are not really up to doing an adequate job?
I'll have to see what's available today locally if so.
Thanks, Mart
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That type in my experience Martin never do a very good job.
They are intended for use on insulated crimps and simply squeeze the terminal, this means you need to use them twice to get a proper termination. Unless you have very strong arms it's also very easy to not apply enough pressure.
As Roy stated the best type fold and bite the terminal lugs into the wire. The very rear of the terminal is then also folded into the insulation.
The terminals they are used on is the bare metal type, remember to slip the insulated hood onto the wire first, if I had a pound for every time I forgot to do that I'd be a wealthy man
The type I referenced in the E-Bay link, have a force multiplier action and will apply a lot more force onto the terminal to ensure the ends bite into the wire. I haven't used that specific pair but I have a couple of tools that look identical and they have served me reasonably well
That's just my experience, the price of decent termination tools has dropped by a huge amount and if you plan to do any wiring on anything it's worth shelling out the extra to get a decent tool
John
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Thanks John, yeah, I've done similar things to not puttig the sleeve on first lol.
I'm going to have to make do with the pliers I'm afraid, at least for now. I do always double crimp them and at slightly different angles, so I'll do the very best I can to get them tight as.
The local auto shop was crap, the wire looked crappy, didn't know the guages and it all looked very thin.
The wire I got from AES is this spec, but looks quite thin to me, but it says 2.0mm squared, which is considerably thicker than the 1.3mm squared as the bare minimum outlined by Roy above.Thin Wall Cable - 010703 28/0.30, 2.0mm�, 25.0A - cable OD 2.7mm Red
The other alternative is that when I ordered the inline fuse holder, I actually got 5 of them. They were the only 30amp rated ones with AWG14, so I could cut the 4 tails required off of them.
Is the spec above ok for the tails? Or should I go with the spare inline fuse wires?
I only have insulated spade connectors to attach to the ignition switch posts, although they'll be easy to switch for better ones, and to be honest all the dash lights could do with being replaced.
So is it the Thin Wall Cable - 010703 28/0.30, 2.0mm squared, 25.0A - cable OD 2.7mm Red, or the 14AWG tails from the spare inline fuse holders?
Thanks guys.
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Feck me it is fiddly trying to get those crimping pliers to work withthe non insulated connectors, for sure, I see what you mean there. I think I've got them good and tight though. I've fitted the connectors to the bike end of the wiring, so I'm indoors making the extention tails. I'll go with the 14AGW cable that's on a spare inline fuse holder for the main feed in and the other heavier brown ignition wire. The green and the white are both of narrower gauge, so I assume the thinner 2mm squared will suffice.
The 2mm squared cable core seems a fair bit narrower than the 14AWG fitted to the inline fuses, although the 14AWG is not thin walled.
Any tips on ditching the "park/sidelights on, ign off" position on the ignition switch connections?
Thanks Mart
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That's a feature of all Guzzi ignition switches, the tail light is always on a different contact for that reason.
You could move them over to the headlight circuit I guess.
I would learn to live with it.
Modified to answer the next post
http://www.guzzitek.org/schemas_electriques/gb/1100/1100California_Carbu_1994.gif
If you look at the schematic the ignition switch is shown as 3 circles, this is the way they represent the 3 positions of the switch
Left circle is Park, middle circle is ON, right circle is OFF, just visualize each one moved to connect the wires where the right circle is sitting now
The battery hot wire goes to terminal 30, I believe the other redish looking wire on the left terminal should be Brown, that goes to the two top fuses item (29)
Note that the green wire from the switch goes to the next fuse down. (I know your fuse block is laid out differently)
So all you have to do is remove the green wire from the switch and connect it to the Brown
Leave the other white wire where it is, that contact of the switch disables the Start button. (although it could be just connected to brown at a pinch)
So now when you put the switch in Park nothing will happen because there's no wire on that terminal.
I don't know anybody that leaves the park lights on, perhaps it's a legal requirement in which case you could just have a 2 way toggle switch to connect the park lights to Brown or the battery or the switch where the green wire was.
You could snip the green wire near the fuse block and connect it to Brown there but you must remove it from the switch anyway or it will backfeed the ignition in Park
Also if you do it at the switch the next owner will be able to change it back if they want.
I hear you on the flat battery, I leave my 72 Eldorado lights on all the time by accident :violent1:
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That's a feature of all Guzzi ignition switches, the tail light is always on a different contact for that reason.
You could move them over to the headlight circuit I guess.
I would learn to live with it.
Yeah, I know mate, I wonder how many flat batteries that's been responsible for over the years tho, I bet it's a fairly big number, certainly a few times here :violent1: .
I never have been able to get used to it. Sometimes I'd think about heading back to the bike filled with dread that I've done it again. It should be simple surely, one way for on, the other way for off. Like a tap, or any other ignition I've ever had.
Moving it over to the lights, sorry, but would that be green joining the white post. EDIT :- actually that doesn't work on the diagram, it looks like green to the brown 15/54 terminal. :wink:
Also is it somethin that could cause problems down the line and thus bad practice to move it to the lights connection Roy? I know you not to say things for no reason :wink: .
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14 AWG is 2.08 mm^2 so for all intensive purposes the Copper CSA is the same
As you already figured Martin, if the wire is normal PVC it will look considerably beefier that the thinwall, but the thinwall will actually be capable of supporting a larger current, 25A should be fine.
I always leave a margin, never load a wire up to it's max rating, it will shorten the life and also remember the longer the run the less current the cable is capable of supporting.
I usually just solder the tails on the inline fuse connector onto the wire I'm running and cover the joint with a couple of layers of shrink sleeve.
AWG is just a rating system used commonly in the US & Canada, this side of the pond we tend to use area, but it amounts to the same thing, Google it & you'll get a raft of equivalent tables
What you want to focus on is the cross sectional area of the conductor. Confusingly (for me anyway) the higher the AWG number the lower the CSA.
If you are trying to terminate bare spades with a tool intended for insulated connectors you are going to have a hard time indeed, if you can achieve a good connection you're more skilled than me.
The side light or parking light used to be a legal requirement, it still might be but it does not form part of an MOT AFAIK (I've never had it checked by a tester)
It will be interesting to see what the end results are and how it impacts on the running of the bike
Good Luck
John
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14 AWG is 2.08 mm^2 so for all intensive purposes the Copper CSA is the same
John
Useful information, thanks John.
I usually just solder the tails on the inline fuse connector onto the wire I'm running and cover the joint with a couple of layers of shrink sleeve.
I think I'll do the same, thanks. :wink:
It will be interesting to see what the end results are and how it impacts on the running of the bike
Good Luck
John
Thanks mate, I've really got my fingers crossed ............. I daren't hold my breath though.
One thing for sure is that I've really learnt a lot from both you and Roy i this thread, and rwally so pleased you've given your time and energy to help. I really can't thank you both enough. It's a huge thanks though!
All the tails are made up, I'm going to fit her back together now. I'll let you know the result of course.
Cheers, Mart
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Cutting into an existing wiring harness can be a Pandora's Box. I have had better luck with solder and shrink tubing than those crimp connectors. It conducts current better, is better isolated from nature, and takes up a great deal less space...
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Cutting into an existing wiring harness can be a Pandora's Box. I have had better luck with solder and shrink tubing than those crimp connectors. It conducts current better, is better isolated from nature, and takes up a great deal less space...
Thanks Sheepdog, yes I'm sure that is a better way. If it all works with this set up I may well redo the joints, I'm really non too impressed with the bullet connectors I bought, though I think I've made good contact with them all.
She's finally back together, time for a test ride and see if there's any difference to the running probems I've had.
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John and Roy, what can I say............. I feel really humbled by your patience and good will, thanks so much guys.
Seriously guys, you've really been great and helped me so much in my quest to get to the bottom of things, and the issue now seems to be solved!! :boozing: :boozing:
I do still have a cough and misfire on decceleration, but I realise that's not connected to the poor running issues and engine cutting/dying on acceleration,and had been a bit of a red herring. I haven't been for a very long ride, but far enough to notice a huge consistant difference for the better. I'm pretty sure the miss on decceleration is down to the holes in the exhaust, or possibly the carb slides are a little out of balance. I'll run her on tick over for a minute or so when the engine is warmed and just check the plug on the left compared with the right if it's lean or rich. I'm guessing a bit on the lean side myself. I'll check the balancing of course.
I'm not very happy with the quality of the bullet connectors I ordered, so I'll be re-doing those connections in the very near future.
I have to say, it also improves the, albeit scruffy, look of my Cali considerably, especially from the riders perspective, with a proper ignition switch fitted to the dash, instead of the hole with ugly wiring/connection. I had to do a little filing for it to be a snug fit, but not much effort. What do you think . . . . . . . err . . . . . . other than the rust on the chrome work etc? ;)
(https://preview.ibb.co/eLsDsT/DSCF2833.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dnHeXT)
I really never got why the original clocks and were so big and dominating. It felt quite strange, but I couldn't get over how much smaller the bike feels without the bulk up there when riding, and why the need for a rev counter on a Cali anyway........ does anyone actually look at them on such a bike, other than to see te needle move? I mean surely people don't really use the rev counter as an indication as to when to change up a gear?
I just never did get that, always assumed it was an fashion accessory for boys with toys, although that's probably a harsh view of it really! :wink: .
Cheers guys, you're truly stars in my book. :bow:
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Hi Marty
RESULT!!!!
Glad I could help some, Roy is the real genius, I consider myself more of a happy amateur
You persevered and asked questions that's what the forum is all about, WG has IMHO probably the best experts on the brand (myself excluded)
Always nice to see a positive outcome and another Goose on the road
As for the Rev counter, the Cali can make a surprisingly sporty tool, if it's ridden the right way she can really pick up her skirts and fly. I used to know a guy who had one who could put distance between me and himself on one and I was on a Daytona at the time (much to my embarrassment).
Oh bike looks good to me, that's just a bit of patina
Remember to PM if you decide to make that trip up north
John
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the Cali can make a surprisingly sporty tool, if it's ridden the right way
Yep, slide forward on the seat, keep the needle pointing at about 6, relax, and let it do it's thing. :smiley:
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You persevered and asked questions that's what the forum is all about, WG has IMHO probably the best experts on the brand (myself excluded)
Always nice to see a positive outcome and another Goose on the road
It feels so natural that we should all be operating in this way instinctively, the sharing of knowlege to help one an other to get along, but it doesn't seem to be the way of the world these days, and time is pressured for so many and hard to find spare for some people. I always participate in doing so in my main areas of expertise, photography and music, when I can help, and spend time mentoring people who want to learn and develop their skills.
As for the Rev counter, the Cali can make a surprisingly sporty tool, if it's ridden the right way she can really pick up her skirts and fly.
Yeah, I do like to nail her myself sometimes, but surely we still mostly ride and change gears by feel, vibration and tone of the engine, especially when going lickety split down a winding road I mean who's got time to take their eyes off the tarmac? :wink:
Oh bike looks good to me, that's just a bit of patina
Remember to PM if you decide to make that trip up north
John
Patina is bang on for this ex antique furniture restorer/dealer. Mind you I've acquired some patina myself since those days. ;)
It's looking unlikely that the guys I was planning the trip with are going to be able to make it, kids and ex's to arrange. I might take a ride up myself, but might work out best for me if it's very late Sept if the weather holds out.
I lived in Wishaw for a few years in my very early yrs. I have no great desire to go there of course. I remember getting the 2 or 3 tailed leather strap at junior school, no wonder yer all 'as hard as' up there. I've always fancied visiting Glasgow though, never been there or Edinburgh yet. I love the East coast up there too. Crail, St Monnans.
I've always fancied doing the coast of the UK with a rule of always using the nearest through road to the coastline at all times. I took a look at that on the map and though "feck, that's going to take months, and even then done in segments .... meaning I'll probably never do it. I'd like to start it though all thee same. The coast of Scotland would be a fab trip in fine weather..... have you done much of it ........ PM would be better I guess.
Cheers Mart
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Back in'2015, I left London and just whacked John O'Groats in the Tom Tom and followed it.
Up there it's all beautiful..
Ya' can't lose no matter what you do. I didn't get to Glasgee, but have not given up.
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The coast of Scotland would be a fab trip in fine weather..... have you done much of it ........ PM would be better I guess.
Cheers Mart
Only in a car Martin many years back wifey and me went up one side, across the top and down the other, more or less.
My take is that the east coast is pretty, but the west is where you want to be, some stunning scenery especially up Ullapool way. Unfortunately the NW 500 has alerted everybody to it and I've heard it's a lot busier than it used to be. When I was up we had the roads to ourselves a good deal of the time
Glasgow is no great shakes it's a former industrial town, some pretty bits, but what city hasn't?
The Uni
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Wklkg0GWqtxyk3zxU4OuEyvAg24QcZ0XkeLdHYCCjIxoH0jy_1bdb_4ubG-z8pUB2i_LDjbVsASDFcnPrU7uJuanHGK5EzpR_lncsqiHxDyxqZztaZlOdUELpf3f2C6PKdDGfA6I-rgZ0pJCr53wYZcCI4ItK7rJni2bAwRBVi7NmwzC1-nnXWHixITdaTuE3qY89IacpZUnFtPHk0vJEmz5YZ69cCezP_qPid_fsuqLwzDrVSBWAYSszKoPRdaxDlJ9NyqZqwSfY10a9DQOMA39O_vWF1TWnkWnXbZMVc2Bhp-goeCqt4NJoByyH1QSNfab-H9tgRja1qIu1bdY_gz3GGfnkm3YhXj5a5tKpb48XqiQRIYlBY37VUkAsIzeF08xkeJA9rMHEZjibNmE-GBFxnU1RSABJM-3KL_hhg4Rwk4sg1qXrql9zV0KYz96nT2cbCDtiESxDBpwcFHzO_Q2sQ02D9LTBdxdLDtPwFkDMN6SGXV7T3Hgbu17U-KUrKtcijw34po9fDilN30ch0rUai8sSTx11fMYgC48L6wxXGPoQicjbPLPmQFTmQAC7nSKrOfRf_YCMUCCjZ7gGzaE71W48GaXjs90bVA=w1478-h985-no)
Park & Trinity
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Au9qTOxEqLPaEtTO__PUnyPZUHghBsWHk_mL_LAIqb-_0Ugp2EoJ6pOe95h9GwiiX9QgxmFt6eQlwNIPdBLdIkoBbooMCVILEjAYA0uYwreIPQfoW6IG3bzFo6X12UfQFzjbrYJE44miycCn7zYGIAsWy_02dsZLsOM6_GyRWeQbV7w8I8M0nVAXWRSGLYL2zuFIa34jFQB6NuLqkHD1gccsCr5XNT5D1VaFe8Ua5AMa4MeBixAGTG7IlTNLScrUZ1lyzDwrOnyFUyAnQoE0q-guTlOLXsh-UPZrAXxHWhMN96BFVHBoessW0kVNSe-lP9JBf7bEPd0X01jLuVx3899MOPE_RWH11u_uMHjotOBr7T-VQKjv1u1TU3FYRTiYb93PyPm351ynVySQNb3V9wSUvZMcbcFOXSYWIQfwLemjeySO1Gd1_UBog-WIY8MToPX9stBWe0evKyjMj20fpcGvE-cz2_IqIr38Em0m1olzkoiX9j40_dhsb425kRMAjUUGpEKiyrcj4oYftfGW-SOP8fnyHP74DYW1MDYGzFn0fPQQLsp4fmZxeQ7ryRwPmPqK4YSXWE4ieWcT7pqoMpgwkiEQ8LHnuMzY8ME=w1478-h985-no)
Errinborro is the pretty girl of Scottish cities ("The Paris of the North" and all that)
Couple of pictures from Nelson Memorial
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/kLd6d_r8WKYO0eByHiVJPQb9auSwocpSDGSRempbhBYGQ7tsCyUdkZd1qKJtf1abBWxEutDIBZtxdNWTkdBfY7tBG4wMr27OxM-b1ePW5BC6GOg8UiP4SrE7wXUhDpMDaWvlOU13pun5hTo9p7gcyDFevm3uWSu1G8Nn37PaLYQgE-QKyPfXS65MO2jW9DgS0XJZ46AKs2PuqWelgo8ilYIkUTwusGqflCKF1u-D-ecEfFNFyjNgxlsTi-s_EKXxRtVkJNBlGvLYCF4yiqwZ76Pl4ykqUlTX88oi1IMoeopgqiOZI9Snr7_9KX77ICZ_5yOQ9GszEafp-bEBasBwrZdl_q4PBxcjHm8NFnlU1lS3NLsof03Id78a0nzxcrI8fOoswnKn2_D6CebDqXoGOSCUFNa67ucBvzkxgNhgbqOEh8ZwX9irz2yG7z62JF2jjFs6DcIKmxlghalD9rgVUGYEDt1GeE55z29YTxG3hGwgDPmvmYKQr9_fM48P3IG389lhvBeMiIyULKECkDTzCMyj6ZG2UoN0zCAzSWv7CvXN28OiXhMlqMbame1qW4lvUMYeUdRos70Q-okYgWB40EeXuZVgaJw6wrNjTSM=w657-h985-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/oFo331YY6bG4naOuVmX7v3mCdtw5ODROQ9gRmRoHY18_Aa1jS1zs95R5ZftKH3nOLLFiKc-QRjH9HS3snhByT7o7JoOYN-Y68dA6xClL0CArM2CKhDh7Swb1GFRhVvAYslADfPJTdMo8v-6g44dyO6vCt5xCnXQfJqA77G7upUSGQUqfgZ15b6fkPNXPElx2BToAUv3hOjeeOXKzaERl-70DIlszdOXyQJPzS9F1UxquscyVxETTh35yCidUDhbzyGs-_Nc_2pPa8gmf_iy1WzLXxhkTWzN2GJ2D1HzawnGxcg6d1aVFlxAILzwfjhR9MJ2Qfyi28S6KcGRY_666iA78PVlXHyo0jt3yIE2LAwkN0R9qwbH7xCJHPRp2-ktL_em4NmTju7DbiOlj1Rwr93kwBg2zmKHNhtaRYFBRm2hRl_cWIYNMVXAxVWaxGkyXebIIHnwEdWqqqgp4h82cA1TswcySvky5KW8RN75QOqGbT_LE71V_G5W_unpMlapykXSHUkqFeran0RX-mc4FftWpteGrqHqCH0IWdd839Z0HT3-SNEk1VnGVaIf61XBQlYN4TQyHFOrPUr5aTgBmf78eoKFEtLrmExsIapQ=w1478-h985-no)
The main advantages of Glasgow are it's a reasonably big city, so all the amenities but good roads & scenery about 20 miles out, so simply going out for a day on the scoot can be a fabby experience
Parts of the borders are really nice too, not nearly so far to travel and I've been told by a mate who lives down there that there are a lot of empty roads