Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: JeffOlson on June 27, 2018, 12:10:47 PM
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Once again, the Norge has won.
As some of you may know, I placed a deposit on this bike (well, one that looks like this bike):
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/wDbdn9M0JCQ/maxresdefault.jpg)
I had thought I would ride more to work. If I were to do that, I could easily justify $25,000 for a new bike. However, the last time I rode to work (last week), I realized again that I hate riding through Portland on I-5. It takes nearly an hour to slog through bumper-to-bumper traffic, with my foot down 100 times, feathering the clutch and not even being able to get the bike into 1st gear. And it is is only going to get worse--much worse. No, I need the comfort of a large automobile to maintain any sanity while commuting through hell. Something like this:
(https://scontent.fsnc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15873442_10208160145943333_8312424431137409341_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=15cdcd3207095e75817fe15fdc63c0b0&oe=5BA81B47)
I got my deposit back yesterday. I am going to stick with joy-riding the Norge around the Olympic Peninsula and commute only in my car:
(https://scontent.fsnc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28872086_10211436798017587_3752123638207965389_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=321b3e7621ba5e209ac091d6086b6962&oe=5BB736CD)
At least until the pain of my last ride through Portland wears off and I think, "Maybe this time it will be better..."
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Where are you coming from/going to in Portland? If you are coming down from Washington and looking at more than a half-hour delay getting across the river, it may be worthwhile, or at least sanity-preserving to cross at Longview and come in on Hwy 30.
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Where are you coming from/going to in Portland? If you are coming down from Washington and looking at more than a half-hour delay getting across the river, it may be worthwhile, or at least sanity-preserving to cross at Longview and come in on Hwy 30.
I am coming down from Olympia and going to Lake Oswego, and then back up later. Sometimes I will take I-205, but I hadn't thought about Longview. I will look into that. Even a longer ride is better than standing still, cursing...
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Even a longer ride is better than standing still, cursing...
That's the way I usually feel about it. I'll admit I don't know much about 30 as a commute, but anything that takes the I-5 bridge out of the equation can't be all bad.
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That is the way I feel about my commute near Seattle. 20 miles on I-405 usually takes an hour with most of that on a 5 mile stretch from Bellevue south. I have a company truck at my disposal and many days I will leave the bike in the parking garage at work if traffic is all balled up.
I have just about had it with the Seattle area. Gonna exploit the economy as much as possible for the next couple years and then head for the hills. Permanently.
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I sat on the new R1200RT last summer. Way too many fancy do dads for me. When all those slick electronic gizmos start acting up in 10-15 years , you'll be digging deep into your wallet. I'd be getting the Norge also.
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8 Years ago when I was looking for a Sport Touring Bike, that BMW was on my radar. I really liked the bike, but the seat height was way too tall for my short little legs. When I tried the Moto Guzzi Norge, it was a perfect fit for me. I still have it. I love the white. That is my only disappointment. I do not like Black. I would have loved a red one. Oh well, that is what they had.
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I really couldn't make sense of the title, the photos or the narrative. Non sequiturs.
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Moved from Seattle to Spokane about 20 years ago. It was a mess then, and far worse now. I have never regretted the move. Much better bike roads out here too.
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feathering the clutch and not even being able to get the bike into 1st gear
Find a good used Convert, they're great in stop and go traffic :thumb:
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You can get to Lake Oswego from Olympia and never touch I5 after Longview.
Take the Longview/Rainier Bridge to Hwy 30.
Go East on Hwy 30 to NW Cornelius Pass Road to Hwy 26.
Go East on Hwy 26 to Hwy 217.
Go South on Hwy 217 into Lake Oswego.
That route is maybe 10 to 20 miles longer than taking I5 all the way.
I have to say that the traffic on 26 and 217 can be heavy at times
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Norge - no cruise for a sport tourer :shocked:
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Norge - no cruise for a sport tourer :shocked:
It's no big deal to put one on if you *have* to have one. BMW=over priced over farkled over rated. Just MHO. Get a Norge and a V7 or maybe 2 Norges for the price of an RT. :evil:
Glad you came to your senses, Jeff. :grin:
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Regardless of the cost difference, I will always give BMW Motorrad credit for figuring out their marketplace, and knowing how to sell into it. And understanding how to price their bikes to match their demographic. Guzzi needs to take a lesson (never.) MOA and RA still both publish nice club mags, and obviously, someone in MOA knows how to loosen up BMW's purse strings .... the current MOA raffle is for 25 Beemers, all to be raffled at the MOA Rally this summer. Don't want the bike? .... take cash.
They're not targeting the small base of Guzzi riders ..... they're selling to the rider base they, along with MOA and RA, helped to create, expand, support, and maintain.
Bob
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IMHO, the R1200RS would be a much better comparison to the Norge than the R1200RT.
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I have a 2007 GS and while I really enjoy riding the bike, the cost of ownership is very high. it seems the cost of parts average about 4 times the cost of parts on a Japanese bike. And it's the little extras that really hit you in the wallet. the saying is true, "gadgets are to BMW what chrome is to Harley".
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Extremely high parts cost is part of the reason late model BMWs depreciate so badly. That plus complexity/gadgetry that cannot be maintained forever at reasonable cost.
Ducatis get a bad rap for high cost of ownership, but dont depreciate in the same way. I have four Ducatis with a combined market value of around $50K, bought by me over time for about the same (combined) $25K cost as this single BMW, a bike that will depreciate to nothing over the same length of time. My Guzzis are not much different, like the Ducatis they've all held their value pretty well. BMW knows their market and customers, but I wonder if they actually laugh at them when discussing how to remove their money for a product that has no lasting market value?
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Tough call on the commute. Lane splitting makes commuting on a bike a much easier decision here in California - as does the ability to use the HOV lanes. Are there no advantages for motorcycles on roads in Oregon? Not even access to carpool lanes?
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There is a car pool lane on one side of I-5 in Portland (heading north from 3 to 6 pm). However, it is occupied by single-occupant vehicles and semis, no doubt flipping their middle fingers at the Man. The only other option would be to ride illegally on the left shoulder (as many motorcycles already do, no doubt flipping their middle fingers to the Man).
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Riding a bike in heavy traffic is simply no fun however you slice it. Then there is the crazy person that takes offense to you trying to move through the lanes and tries to make your life miserable. In situations such as that, I would much rather be in a car. At least you have a bit more around you.
Another thing. Now a days, there are a lot of cars that get excellent fuel economy. Some as good or better than some bikes, so the argument of saving gas does not always apply either.
I prefer the path of least aggravation.
John Henry
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. BMW knows their market and customers, but I wonder if they actually laugh at them when discussing how to remove their money for a product that has no lasting market value?
Maybe its because to some of us, residual value is a very small factor in the purchasing decision..no?
It never entered my mind when I bought my rockster new in '04. About $10K out the door. Today 14 years later I can $3K or more, hardly worthless.
:-)
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The semis are fun to watch in the car-pool lane. They almost always have their right turn signals on, but they never get over. Oh, and the single-occupant landscaper trucks with their loose garbage cans in the bed. (One of them flew out one day and hit my BMW; fortunately, it was empty and plastic and only scratched the bumper cap...)
The cops ticket motorcycles for riding down the right shoulder to get to an exit, but they never ticket anyone in the car-pool lane. (Probably because it is impossible to get to once clogged traffic stalls, or maybe they are just lazy...)
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Maybe its because to some of us, residual value is a very small factor in the purchasing decision..no?
It never entered my mind when I bought my rockster new in '04. About $10K out the door. Today 14 years later I can $3K or more, hardly worthless.
:-)
BMW does know their market, one that has on the average aged dramatically, and apparently they agree that for riders at a 'certain age' future value may not be very important.
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Yes, the I-5 is much of what I dislike about urban environs. Even when outside of rush hour it can be a maddening chore. I tried commuting into New Orleans when I worked there a while back. I could see that it was not sustainable from a safety standpoint. I just had too many near-misses that I could not have avoided...
I test rode an RT, as it was getting rave reviews from the moto-media. It is a refined and comfortable bike, albeit a little porky. Also, for here in the South, the wind protection was a little too good. The leftover 2016 RS on the floor worked out to be the better choice. It's a much simpler bike and though electronic features still abound, I keep my bikes in a climate-controlled shop so I'm hoping the combination of dry air, not splicing into the harness, and protection from the elements will delay failures. The bike is astoundingly competent and the dealer made me a great deal. It's a big change from my Vintage (that I will keep as long as I can) which is exactly what I was going for: a bike that would expand my moto-paradigm rather than replace it.
(https://preview.ibb.co/fe5jH8/2_EA047_D3_2_F12_4648_8_BA5_87_C7094_FA1_AA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dzmDAT)
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BMW does know their market, one that has on the average aged dramatically, and apparently they agree that for riders at a 'certain age' future value may not be very important.
Yes and with age comes wisdom. Last BMW rally I attended was mostly middle age folks and some of us old guys that have never grown up.
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Yes and with age comes wisdom.
And mortality, which is why those 'wise old owls' buying BMWs in 2018 are not concerned about spending $25K on a disposable motorcycle. My friends in Germany who work for BMW are eternally grateful.
Last BMW rally I attended was mostly middle age folks and some of us old guys that have never grown up.
I have been riding and socializing at least weekly with my local BMW club members since 1984. I'd estimate during that period that the age of the average member has increased form roughly 40 to roughly 65.
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I feel your pain as I commuted 100 miles a day splitting lanes in So Cal for more than 20 years on my HD dressers, all accident free. *My Joke is I live in Seattle, I can see it but can't get there!! The roads here on the Kitsap pennisula and around the 101 are mostly pain free and easy traveling. Getting to MI would be a major hassle up the 5 at just about any time of the day. The White Norge is beautiful!
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Nice ride, Sheepdog!
Bob
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I'm lucky in that my commute avoids most of the traffic most of the time. This is a mixed blessing, because while I'm dealing with a lower volume of crappy Portland drivers, the ones on my route have more velocity behind their bad decisions.
I've memorized alternate routes for each freeway exit I pass, in case things suddenly go south (or if I just get a worse than usual feeling about the drivers I'm sharing the freeway with).
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And mortality, which is why those 'wise old owls' buying BMWs in 2018 are not concerned about spending $25K on a disposable motorcycle. My friends in Germany who work for BMW are eternally grateful.
I have been riding and socializing at least weekly with my local BMW club members since 1984. I'd estimate during that period that the age of the average member has increased form roughly 40 to roughly 65.
First of all you don't have to spend anywhere near $25K for a new BMW any more that $50K on a good car.
and to say they depreciate to nothing is nonsense.
What is the point of all your near condescending remarks?
Most here that ride BMW don't really give a D***n what you think about beemers, so why do you persist on telling us how bad they are.
This kind of rhetoric is useless.
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That is the way I feel about my commute near Seattle. 20 miles on I-405 usually takes an hour with most of that on a 5 mile stretch from Bellevue south. I have a company truck at my disposal and many days I will leave the bike in the parking garage at work if traffic is all balled up.
I have just about had it with the Seattle area. Gonna exploit the economy as much as possible for the next couple years and then head for the hills. Permanently.
All these "commute in big cities" stories validate (at least in my own mind, where it matters) my decision years ago, to "head for the hills" before I even started to get into those kind of commutes.
Lived in Atlanta for 3 years, and Denver for one. Lived in the city, and commuted by bus and train, and then got away, where my commute was 3/4 rural roads.
Didn't make as much money as I could have in "the big city", but you can't put a price on quality of life, either .....
Lannis
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Besides spending way too much time on here when I should be out riding :laugh:, I also spend a lot of "unproductive" time on face book. Anyways, there are a few R1200RT owners over there hitting 100,000 miles without a bit of trouble. One guy absolutely loves his. I don't think that you can go wrong either way. The cost factor would have me leaning toward the Norge, but that's just my thrifty self.
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Most here that ride BMW don't really give a D***n what you think about beemers, so why do you persist on telling us how bad they are.
I'll be riding my BMW from Munich to Hamburg to Berlin and back starting on Tuesday and it has 100,000 miles currently on the clock, so I think you can count me among BMW riders. What has become quite apparent to me over 25 years or so since I started owning and riding them in parallel with my other bikes is the obscene increase in costs associated with them, both in terms of original purchase cost, plus much increased depreciation and maintenance costs. I think its the sheer shock of seeing that occur to a marque that earned its current reputation being exactly the opposite, plus the manipulative way that BMW designs-in dealer service into 2018 models, that provokes my reaction.
Although some probably don't (or wouldn't) care, I think many BMW buyers today have no idea of what they're buying into. For example, a friend at work bought a used K1600 in good condition and was a bit shocked when the first time the dealer service light came on he took it to the dealer saying to "do what BMW recommends" and was presented with a $4K estimate. That came down to $3200 after some discussion. Likewise a flying friend with an R-bike who told me on Saturday that he's looking at a $1600 estimate for what i'd consider routine service (not including resealing his Ohlins shocks). A good friend and fellow European touring rider owns the BMW dealership... and with that in mind I suggested only that he might want to look at a DL1000.
Whether you or anybody approves of any of the above, or not, is relatively unimportant to me.
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I almost rode today. At the last minute, I decided to drive. I am glad I did. Olympia to Vancouver was breeze. Portland, however, was another matter. Sigh�
My point in this thread was not to slam BMW but to say that my justification for riding one has faded: riding to work is no longer a good option. I have had about 20 BMW cars over the years, including three 7 Series, so I am not afraid of them, but it seems foolish to drop $25,000 on a bike and not ride it much when my Norge is perfectly adequate for now.
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...but it seems foolish to drop $25,000 on a bike and not ride it much when my Norge is perfectly adequate for now.
Yup, that seems the basic point here. Now, for $5,000 or less, you can get a used, low-mile Ducati ST3 that will flat out smoke that BMW, while being just as comfortable. I'm enjoying mine quite a lot. Pardon the thread drift into Ducati-land.
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I miss my ST2. So does my wife. That was her favorite bike for riding behind me. The Norge is a bit of an old man's bike to her compared to the Ducati. (Any bike that gets my wife excited is a good bike!)
I've been looking at the new Ducati SuperSport, but the passenger accommodations suck compared to the STs...
Here's the bike that always got my wife excited:
(https://scontent.fsnc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/10265658_10203404573176986_6978238715903211383_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=b5efbdd04cc00d27e5a4725db968cfc6&oe=5BB4F131)
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The STs depreciated as fast as a BMW :laugh: and faster than just about any other Ducati, but the upside is that given their 90s Ducati design they can be maintained indefinitely by a diligent owner with time on his hands but nothing special in the workshop. $5K is about right for a really mint, low mileage example. They are still maybe the best overall performing factory hard bag equipped touring bike you can get. This one is only a ST4, not an S but it makes 110 RWHP and handles well. An ST2 seems to settle in to an 80 mph cruise speed, this one feels good with passenger and loaded bags at a 90 mph cruise, right in the midrange.
(https://thumb.ibb.co/fqZtwd/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fqZtwd)
If I had to recommend one, I'd personally recommend the nicest ST2 you could find.
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The BMW will always come up trumps on paper...
Trouble is, we don't ride on paper..!
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The STs depreciated as fast as a BMW :laugh: and faster than just about any other Ducati, but the upside is that given their 90s Ducati design they can be maintained indefinitely by a diligent owner with time on his hands but nothing special in the workshop. $5K is about right for a really mint, low mileage example. They are still maybe the best overall performing factory hard bag equipped touring bike you can get. This one is only a ST4, not an S but it makes 110 RWHP and handles well. An ST2 seems to settle in to an 80 mph cruise speed, this one feels good with passenger and loaded bags at a 90 mph cruise, right in the midrange.
(https://thumb.ibb.co/fqZtwd/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fqZtwd)
If I had to recommend one, I'd personally recommend the nicest ST2 you could find.
New ST was about $11K, it's now at $3-5K 20 years later. That ain't in the same league as BMW depreciation. Just sayin
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Yup, that seems the basic point here. Now, for $5,000 or less, you can get a used, low-mile Ducati ST3 that will flat out smoke that BMW, while being just as comfortable. I'm enjoying mine quite a lot. Pardon the thread drift into Ducati-land.
That's a fact.. great handling, comfortable for a Sport tourer, easy to maintain. (for a Duck)
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Guilty for Duc-hijacking the thread. Just got mine back on the road, properly tagged for NYS and am smiling ear to ear.
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As Leafman has told me with regard to his newish GS, either get an extended warranty or sell before the factory warranty runs out. And if you like changing your own oil, plan on paying the dealer $50 bucks or pack up with some folks to buy the computer device to turn off the maintenance light.
Even with the minor problems that I have had with my Norge, at 70K miles it has never been back to a dealer and I've never had to give someone $50 bucks to turn off a light.
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I’ve had one of my BMWs for sixteen years and have had no extraordinary repair issues — just the routine maintenance you would expect.
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I’ve had no trouble with my ‘16 BMW. The first service was reasonably priced; under $300. The next will be more, as I will need tires. My ‘60 BMW never gave me any trouble, either...not even once.
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My '04 Rockster (r1150r) is very high mileage and has only been to a dealer for the first (600 mi) check.
But I keep a log book and do aircraft type inspections/maintence.
The reason I have stuck to the 1150 is you CAN maintain it at home. The most sophisticated tool I have to have is a good digital meter.
I will never sell the rockster, might give it away when THE time comes, same for the CX
My old Guzzi has had its troubles but always has made it to the barn under its own power. Its easy to maintain and we have become good friends!(like my beemer).
:-)
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I imagine BMW has its share of lemons. However, I cannot believe all of their stuff is junk. If it were, they would not be selling everything they can screw together.
My latest 7 Series had an issue. The dealer could not fix it. So the factory engineers got involved, diagnosed the issue, and told the dealer how to repair it. It took quite a while, but in the meantime, the dealer made my payments for me and gave me another 7 Series as a loaner.
If I were to buy a BMW motorcycle, I would demand similar treatment from the dealer, and I expect I would receive it...
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If I were to buy a BMW motorcycle, I would demand similar treatment from the dealer, and I expect I would receive it...
Good luck with that. I'd be really surprised if you see that level of service from the average BMW motorcycle dealer.
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As Leafman has told me with regard to his newish GS, either get an extended warranty or sell before the factory warranty runs out. And if you like changing your own oil, plan on paying the dealer $50 bucks or pack up with some folks to buy the computer device to turn off the maintenance light.
Even with the minor problems that I have had with my Norge, at 70K miles it has never been back to a dealer and I've never had to give someone $50 bucks to turn off a light.
I'd agree but be careful with extended warranties. My local US friend (the BMW franchised dealer) has had a customer's bike waiting for a gearbox part for 6 months because the extended warranty company will not pay for a whole new gearbox, but BMW does not always stock the individual part in either the US or Germany. They order a few periodically from ZF or whoever, but if they run out they do not restock until the next scheduled order. BMW expects that the whole gearbox will be replaced as the normal procedure. If you don't agree $$$$, you may be screwed for parts even if the franchised dealer has the latitude and skills to overhaul the gearbox.
Meanwhile, 6000 miles away at another dealer, in related news :grin: this weeks story is a friends 2005 R1200GS that has just had the gearbox, drive shaft and rear drive unit all replaced at 50K miles. Actually the work was done by an independent BMW mechanic who now due to 30 years seniority works his day job as a service writer (not a mechanic) at the BMW factory owned dealer, with side work to make extra money. The gearbox could be overhauled by him, whereas the factory-owned dealer strictly replaces and does not rebuild gearboxes. They've built so many types that BMW can no longer train the line mechanics to that level. The bill was $2500, but would have been a great deal more if done by the dealer with an all new gearbox, and not as a special deal.
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Really? Is that too much? Well, I would pay extra for that. And I really would expect it if I had a lemon like some of the people here seem to have encountered. But perhaps the car part of the business is different...
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I really enjoy riding and traveling on my 2007 R1200GS. It has the ABS pump issue that is common on them at 35,000 to 50,000 miles and cost $2600 just for the pump and another $1200 to install it. The TPMS have gone out (batteries went dead and are non-replaceable) and are $141 each with a $50 reprograming fee. I recently put new shocks front and back, as originals went bad.
Love the bike but costs are way more than most other brands.
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^ Ouch! That is like a car repair bill.
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Good luck with that. I'd be really surprised if you see that level of service from the average BMW motorcycle dealer.
Like I said before, I don't understand this thread. I know my brother told me that "he's glad he bought the extended warranty" with his K1600 'cause the front shock was $2800. He said he won't bother with the 30k valve check because of his out of pocket. I know a guy that said "he's glad he bought the extended warranty" for his R1200R because the fork replacement was $1800. I know a guy on this board that has a 10 year old GS with a ABS light on because the ABS pump costs $3k. ...
Even though I don't know the purpose of this thread, but I've shied away from a Beemer R1200RT because of this crap. It ain't because I can't afford it but because of my BS sensor and I don't like to think of myself as a sucker.
It's a free country (for now), buy what you want (and I still don't know what this thread is supposed to be about).
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I really enjoy riding and traveling on my 2007 R1200GS. It has the ABS pump issue that is common on them at 35,000 to 50,000 miles and cost $2600 just for the pump and another $1200 to install it. The TPMS have gone out (batteries went dead and are non-replaceable) and are $141 each with a $50 reprograming fee. I recently put new shocks front and back, as originals went bad.
Love the bike but costs are way more than most other brands.
I just think I referred to you in the post above.
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The point of this thread was this:
1. I wanted to get a new bike because I thought I would like it more on the freeway and might actually ride it more to work.
2. But when I experienced once again how horrible Portland traffic is, I realized I would not ride it more. I will drive my car instead.
3. Therefore, my rationalization for the added expense of the new bike evaporated, so I am am staying with my Norge.
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The point of this thread was this:
1. I wanted to get a new bike because I thought I would like it more on the freeway and might actually ride it more to work.
2. But when I experienced once again how horrible Portland traffic is, I realized I would not ride it more. I will drive my car instead.
3. Therefore, my rationalization for the added expense of the new bike evaporated, so I am am staying with my Norge.
That wasn't very clear to me. It started as comparison between the RT and Norge but the text was about bad traffic.
So because only you knew what this was about, did the comments match your expectations?
I thought the comments were pretty random based on the mismatch of text to title.
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I got Jeff's message OK. Long commute and wanting a more comfortable highway bike, but traffic congestion makes setting on any bike at a standstill not enjoyable. So a car makes more sense.
Then the campfire thread drift takes over comparing a Norge (which Jeff has and will stick with for pleasure riding duties) to the RT, and of course cost of ownership enters the conversation, with owner examples of older, less complicated "gadgetty" machines verses the newer ones with the expensive to maintain expresso dispensing handlebars.
I love a good camp fire discussion.
Jeff, I agree with your reasoning and logic. Sounds like you have made the right decision for your circumstance.
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I understand that those ABS pumps on GS's,etc. can be repaired for substantially less money. Leafman had one go out on his GS, and the dealer? in Baton Rouge repaired it for something like $500 bucks, but that is from memory.
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I understand that those ABS pumps on GS's,etc. can be repaired for substantially less money. Leafman had one go out on his GS, and the dealer? in Baton Rouge repaired it for something like $500 bucks, but that is from memory.
I heard that too.