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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nic in Western NYS on July 13, 2018, 03:05:13 PM
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For those of you who have sworn off the ethanol (for your bikes), you may have run into the problem of trying to plan your ride or even your day around where to get gas. I had a DUH, WHY DIDN'T YOU THINK OF THAT moment this morning wondering if I had time to stop at the ethanol-free gas station before work - a fresh little 2.5g of E0 in the garage in an easy-pour, no-spill container got enough fuel in the bike to get me where I needed to go with no stops. My brain had that gas pegged for the small engines.
(https://thumb.ibb.co/hXgbCT/No_spill.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hXgbCT)
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Yet another great thing about living in Wisconsin is having about 12 pure gas stations less than 3 miles from our home and another one or more in every small town in all nearby counties. Almost as plentiful as taverns not really but I'm grateful that is one less thing for me to worry about.
Brad
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Last year's idea of keeping a 55 gallon drum in my shed full of 90 octane E0 with Marine Sta-bil is working out fine.
No more clogged jets, no more "old gas", no more 10% gas mileage loss. I'll come back from a ride as close to empty as I can do, and fill up from the drum ....
AND if I'm in the car and get ready to go and say "Oh durn it, I'm about on empty, now I'll have to stop on the way somewhere (the nearest gas station is 5 miles from the house) ....", I just pump a few gallons into the car and off I go ....
Lannis
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Wow, wonder what I'm doing right.
We did see ethanol free gas this past trip. Maybe you get bad ethanol out west!
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Must be sweet to have E0 opportunities close to home. I'm not aware of any in the Los Angeles area, so I just go on mixing a small amount of Startron into each fill up.
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Must be sweet to have E0 opportunities close to home. I'm not aware of any in the Los Angeles area, so I just go on mixing a small amount of Startron into each fill up.
We now have THREE gas stations in our little tiny town that carry E0, up from ONE a couple years ago.
I think people are getting the idea.
Lannis
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The number of E0 stations are increasing around here. It is E0 Premium only, so I am not going to use it in my cars, but bikes yes. The closest station to me is 5 miles away. but it a couple of years ago the closest was 40 miles away so I am happy. There are also a few scattered in my favorite riding areas in SW Wisconsin.
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Like just about everything these days. There's an app for that . . .
Pure Gas, for your android device (cell phone). I imagine there is something for the I-device crowd too.
Nearest to me is 1.3 miles away. It also the local airports and marinas. Has maps and directions too.
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Be careful getting gas from airports and marinas. There is no road use tax on it.
And avgas isnt the same as mogas. Most avgas has lead in it unless it is mogas approves for use in aircraft certificated to use it. Avgas has a different additive package. It is made for slow revving constant speed engines with large bores and low compression. Think sloooow burning.
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Yet another great thing about living in Wisconsin is having about 12 pure gas stations less than 3 miles from our home and another one or more in every small town in all nearby counties. Almost as plentiful as taverns not really but I'm grateful that is one less thing for me to worry about.
Brad
Fellow Cheese Head here. Being sandwiched between Milwaukee and Chicago (Kenosha), we are pretty much stuck to using gas with ethanol. Yes, there are a few areas where I can get the good stuff, but with little time I have off from work, I just want to ride. My carbs have been re jetted for the last 20 years or there abouts. I've gone pretty close to the Euro jetting listed in Guzziology. From memory, I believe my main needle is up one notch from listed and that's about the only difference. It works for me. My only gripe is that once every 5 years or so, my float needle goes bad. Then when I get my LeMans out for the first ride in the spring, I have gas spewing out like a sieve. :angry:
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Glad I don't need to be obsessed or that. I just run whatever is handy.
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Glad I don't need to be obsessed or that. I just run whatever is handy.
:thumb: My Convert actually runs worse and gas mileage drops when I run E0.
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Glad I don't need to be obsessed or that. I just run whatever is handy.
Yes, count your blessings on that!
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Glad I don't need to be obsessed or that. I just run whatever is handy.
I don't "obsess", I'm just sick and tired of having to disassemble about 8 carburetors per year when the ethanol eats them up. Keeping E0 around is a fraction of the cost and trouble of trying to play "whack-a-toad" with the 18 IC engines around this place.
Your mileage obviously varies!
Lannis
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Non ethanol is easy to find here in western NY state ,or at least where I live...But the octane was dropped to 90 this year...Old Triumphs with stock compression can detonate badly on it, gotta use the 93E10...But my 96 Ducati is fine with the 90 octane
Ethanol seems to be a problem for one guy and not an issue for another...I know guys with carburetor bikes using E10 with no issues..In fact some of them don't even know you're supposed to have problems..
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Non ethanol is easy to find here in western NY state ,or at least where I live...But the octane was dropped to 90 this year...Old Triumphs with stock compression can detonate badly on it, gotta use the 93E10...But my 96 Ducati is fine with the 90 octane
Ethanol seems to be a problem for one guy and not an issue for another...I know guys with carburetor bikes using E10 with no issues..In fact some of them don't even know you're supposed to have problems..
Yes, 90 octane only around here. My 04 Duc is fine on it too, no pings so no prob - at least that's my understanding.
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I thought the farm subsidies are gone and ethanol is going away. Use straight toluene. Cheaper than gas per gallon, very high octane, around 114 and no taxes.
FORMULA 1
Toulene
R+M/2...114
Cost...$2.50/gal
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium
10%...94.2 Octane
20%...96.4 Octane
30%...98.6 Octane
Notes: Common ingredient in Octane Boosters in a can. 12-16 ounces will only raise octane 2-3 *points*, I.e. from 92 to 92.3. Often costs $3-5 for 12-16 ounces, when it can be purchased for less than $3/gal at chemical supply houses or paint stores.
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There's a lot more to gasoline that octane..Reed pressure and 90C evaporation rate have a large influence on detonation and preignition suppression..
And where do you buy toluene for 2.50 a gallon?
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There's a lot more to gasoline that octane..Reed pressure and 90C evaporation rate have a large influence on detonation and preignition suppression..
And where do you buy toluene for 2.50 a gallon?
Cut and paste formula. Toluene has to be hot to evaporate properly. The amount used in race engines is limited to around 86%.
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Cut and paste formula. Toluene has to be hot to evaporate properly. The amount used in race engines is limited to around 86%.
All fuel needs heat to evaporate.The proper evaporation rate can make more HP or prevent detonation that despite high octane might still occur. Where do you get Toluene for 2.50 a gallon.. I have formulas for home brew race but Toluene seems to be a bit expensive...
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I have E0 Premium 3 miles from my house, so that is what I normally use. When traveling and I cannot find E0 I add some Startron every couple of tanks.
On the web, pure-gas.org lists stations that sell E0, including airports and marinas that sell fuel that you don't want to put in your tank. Note: the "-" is an important part of the URL. They also have apps for Android and Apple that will show you the locations on a map of nearby stations.
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Non ethanol is easy to find here in western NY state ,or at least where I live...But the octane was dropped to 90 this year...Old Triumphs with stock compression can detonate badly on it, gotta use the 93E10...But my 96 Ducati is fine with the 90 octane
Ethanol seems to be a problem for one guy and not an issue for another...I know guys with carburetor bikes using E10 with no issues..In fact some of them don't even know you're supposed to have problems..
Back when they took lead out of the gas I was getting VP C12 for my Norton. 112 octane R+M/2.
That was the only gas I have used where you could actually feel the difference from pump gas. Easier starting, no hesitation and pulled harder. You can still get VP gas but I haven't looked for it in years. VP Sells high octane ethanol free both leaded and unleaded.
Rough, there used to be a gas station just this side of Spencer Speedway that sold high octane ethanol free that was rated near 100 octane. You might want to check that place out.
Pete
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OK, does anyone here know WHY ethanol in fuel is a bad thing?
After living in the #2 wine region of the USA for the past 20 years, lets say that I've been educated on this topic by people who make a living making ethanol in a controlled fashion.
Wine is a great analog for ethanol gas as the content is about the same 10% or so. What happens to ethanol if you expose it to oxygen and moisture? It breaks down into acetic acid, also known as vinegar. Winemakers hate when this happens unless they're doing it on purpose.
So, take a half full fuel tank of 10% ethanol fuel. It's vented, so there's oxygen available. On a humid day, it's also drawing in moisture, which condenses at night. Let this mix sit for a couple weeks and you have a tank of 10% vinegar... ok, it's not quite that fast, but it does start in as little as 24 hours.
The vinegar is a mild acid, it doesn't corrode steel much, but it does remove rust. So right away if there's any rust flakes in your tank... they're now on their way to plugging up your fuel filter. However, from highschool chemistry (at least, it was taught to me in highschool, now it's likely graduate level stuff) I learned that vinegar reacts with aluminum and zinc. Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc. So, at first it seems to clean things up nicely... but if left for some time, the vinegar eats the zinc out of the brass, leaving a structure that looks like swiss cheese. That is why brass parts break if exposed to ethanol fuel. As for lawnmowers and such, most of the carbs on them are zinc castings, with brass jets, plugs, etc. This is why my new lawnmower has an all plastic carb and fuel tank.
So, if you gotta run your bike on corn-fuel, it's okay as long as you keep running it. Don't let it set. I don't worry about filling my baby with 93 octane corn fuel as long as I'm running that tank through in a week. But for the last few weeks before winter, I run nothing but E0 to make sure it's all gone before being put up for 5 months.
One other thing, buy gas from a station that is busy. Busy means fresh fuel that hasn't turned to vinegar yet. JMHO, YMMV.
Rick
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We've had ethanol in gas here since '06. It ate up the fibreglass gas tanks in my boat. I replaced them with polyethylene tanks. I had to take the top end of the motor (350 chevy) apart to clean the gook out of the heads and intake manifold. Have not experienced any issues with any other gas powered machines.
No EO fuel around here to my knowledge, except for the Sunoco station in Preston that sells 102 octane racing fuel...
Larry
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OK, does anyone here know WHY ethanol in fuel is a bad thing?
After living in the #2 wine region of the USA for the past 20 years, lets say that I've been educated on this topic by people who make a living making ethanol in a controlled fashion.
Wine is a great analog for ethanol gas as the content is about the same 10% or so. What happens to ethanol if you expose it to oxygen and moisture? It breaks down into acetic acid, also known as vinegar. Winemakers hate when this happens unless they're doing it on purpose.
So, take a half full fuel tank of 10% ethanol fuel. It's vented, so there's oxygen available. On a humid day, it's also drawing in moisture, which condenses at night. Let this mix sit for a couple weeks and you have a tank of 10% vinegar... ok, it's not quite that fast, but it does start in as little as 24 hours.
The vinegar is a mild acid, it doesn't corrode steel much, but it does remove rust. So right away if there's any rust flakes in your tank... they're now on their way to plugging up your fuel filter. However, from highschool chemistry (at least, it was taught to me in highschool, now it's likely graduate level stuff) I learned that vinegar reacts with aluminum and zinc. Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc. So, at first it seems to clean things up nicely... but if left for some time, the vinegar eats the zinc out of the brass, leaving a structure that looks like swiss cheese. That is why brass parts break if exposed to ethanol fuel. As for lawnmowers and such, most of the carbs on them are zinc castings, with brass jets, plugs, etc. This is why my new lawnmower has an all plastic carb and fuel tank.
So, if you gotta run your bike on corn-fuel, it's okay as long as you keep running it. Don't let it set. I don't worry about filling my baby with 93 octane corn fuel as long as I'm running that tank through in a week. But for the last few weeks before winter, I run nothing but E0 to make sure it's all gone before being put up for 5 months.
One other thing, buy gas from a station that is busy. Busy means fresh fuel that hasn't turned to vinegar yet. JMHO, YMMV.
Rick
Not true Rick. You can't get acetic acid from ethanol and O2. The winemakers might get it but its due to other compounds in the wine. This was verified by a couple of PhD chemists here at work.
The problem with modern gas is its not stable and breaks down with time. Back in the day of leaded gas it would last for years in a closed container. VP gas is still very stable as its made much the same as it was made back in the '60s with added compounds to make more power.
Pete
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VP fuel is said by the manufacturer to be good for three years in the original sealed manufacturer container...Once the can is opened, the lighter ingredients start to evaporate. If you remove let's say one gallon from a five gallon container and then immediately seal the container again...the lighter ingredients can "evaporate" into the head space left in the container...Racers at the track always pour fuel from sealed containers for engines dependent on the best fuel...what's left, if not used with a month at most ,is used in a an engine less subject to detonation, like a stock street bike. I have personal experience with stale race fuel when I accidentally used 6 month old gas from a previously opened can and the engine went into detonation and seized a piston...
The stories about E10 gumming up insides of 4 stroke engines make me wonder what fuel is doing inside of the engine unless there's mechanical issues like excessive blowby etc...However, it can cause sticky valves on some engine when the E10 evaporated leaving a residue behind..
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Quote from: Antietam Classic Cycle on July 14, 2018, 11:45:24 AM (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=97043.msg1534173#msg1534173) :thumb: My Convert actually runs
worse and gas mileage drops when I run E0.
Did you rejet for E10? If so you went richer because alcohol is ann oxygenate which leans the mixture. Put in E0 and now you are really rich.
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Did you rejet for E10? If so you went richer because alcohol is ann oxygenate which leans the mixture. Put in E0 and now you are really rich.
It's interesting because in Charlie's experience, running E10 results in better gas mileage, but of course he runs carburetors. The jetting must be such that the leaner E10 mixture is more suited to the jetting.
On both of my ECU/FI bikes, my gas mileage improves by about 10% when I run E0. I don't know what the system is doing to compensate, but it's in the right direction. I recently ran 212 miles on my '09 Stelvio on one tank of E0 with some left over.
It's almost like the ethanol is just a "filler" and doesn't contribute to getting the bike down the road. But with a measured 44 MPG on E10 and 49 MPG on E0 .... Moneywise, it's a wash or worse, since when E10 is $2.40 here, E0 is $2.89 .... plus I add $.15 a gallon worth of stabilizer.
So I generally limit the use of my stabilized E0 to the two stroke equipment and the old bikes with carbs that might sit for a while ... the FI bikes, which get about 15K a year between them, get 87 octane E10 ....
Lannis
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Quote from: Antietam Classic Cycle on July 14, 2018, 11:45:24 AM (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=97043.msg1534173#msg1534173) :thumb: My Convert actually runs
worse and gas mileage drops when I run E0.
Did you rejet for E10? If so you went richer because alcohol is ann oxygenate which leans the mixture. Put in E0 and now you are really rich.
What is the difference between the two fuels to determine the jet size change?? Are you calculating by BTU content?...
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Plug readings and experience. With racecars running straight alk jetting was always richer. We would urn almost 3x fuel with alk. So rich it would get past the rigs and fill the oil sump and needed draining every night.
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Plug readings and experience. With racecars running straight alk jetting was always richer. We would urn almost 3x fuel with alk. So rich it would get past the rigs and fill the oil sump and needed draining every night.
We are discussing pump gas not straight methanol used for racing...E10 is 10 percent ethanol not 100 percent...The difference in energy content is about 4 percent between E10 and E0.There are other factors like specific gravity and additives that may have an effect...From actual experience about one main jet size and on some ,but not all.. the part throttle and idle mixture may need slight changes...
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We've had ethanol in gas here since '06. It ate up the fibreglass gas tanks in my boat. I replaced them with polyethylene tanks. I had to take the top end of the motor (350 chevy) apart to clean the gook out of the heads and intake manifold. Have not experienced any issues with any other gas powered machines.
No EO fuel around here to my knowledge, except for the Sunoco station in Preston that sells 102 octane racing fuel...
Larry
E10 gas started to eat my Norton Fiberglass tank. The factory originals (mine) were made of epoxy resin and held up well but I noticed paint was chipping off (fine pin head chips) that followed the bottom seam of my Fastback tank. I have since sealed the tank with no further problems. Friends who have repro tanks had major problems with the resin clogging the carbs. The aftermarket tanks use polyester resin with the fiberglass.
Good tank sealer:
https://www.caswellplating.com/epoxy-gas-tank-sealer.html
Pete
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We are discussing pump gas not straight methanol used for racing...E10 is 10 percent ethanol not 100 percent...The difference in energy content is about 4 percent between E10 and E0.There are other factors like specific gravity and additives that may have an effect...From actual experience about one main jet size and on some ,but not all.. the part throttle and idle mixture may need slight changes...
Rough, did you actually do dyno runs to compare the two fuels?
In theory E10 should only reduce energy content by 1%. Ethanol has 10% less energy than gasoline. 10% of 10% is 1%.
Pete
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Quote from: Antietam Classic Cycle on July 14, 2018, 11:45:24 AM (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=97043.msg1534173#msg1534173) :thumb: My Convert actually runs
worse and gas mileage drops when I run E0.
Did you rejet for E10? If so you went richer because alcohol is ann oxygenate which leans the mixture. Put in E0 and now you are really rich.
No, stock jetting with the needle raised one notch.
I had the same experience on my '77 Yamaha XT500 with stock jetting - while it had noticeably better throttle response just off idle, the rest seemed "flat" and gas mileage dropped off slightly.
E10 may not be a full 10% - the sign on the pump does read: "May contain up to 10% Ethanol. :wink:
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Rough, the alk content is different but the principle is the same. Less energy content so you need more fuel for the same output.
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Rough, the alk content is different but the principle is the same. Less energy content so you need more fuel for the same output.
Yes, but the difference is only 4 percent,That's about one main jet size .The difference in ambient temperature from 40 F to 70 F has more influence on engine fuel needs. I run carburetor well tuned bikes on both E0 and E10...I can not feel any difference in performance....I don't like E10 but it does the job...
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True but the fact remains alk has 33% less energy content than gasoline. No matter the amount to compensate you must add fuel.
Flex fuel engines do just that.
Remember when na$car went to E15 and injection? Many teams regularly burned up engines. They ran them too lean and they pretty much shut off fuel deivery when entering turns. They had to richen up the mapping and the problem was solved.
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Here is a video that explains some of what happens with ethanol in gasoline, and what you can do about it.
http://www.starbrite.com/videos/start-tron-videos-en
Select "Enzyme Fuel Treatment"