Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: jacksonracingcomau on October 09, 2018, 10:52:17 PM
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Pete sent me ealy Griso 8v elephant's foot rocker adjuster to try, thread is same but somehow distorted, possibly overtightened ?
So I got some ktm ones #590362000
To my eye they are identical to Guzzi ones, either should work ktm more easily found
Am waiting on new valves, all I have here have worn tips and some just odd lengths ?
Hope new oe ones are at least all the same !
When I have them I'll post if any mods needed for clearance, possible I will grind some of bottom of rocker arm away/ shorten valve/ shorten pushrod.
Any way, they can and will fit.
But
These alone will not fix lario, before anyone goes here
1/ check camshaft for wear, dial gauge on all 4 lobes, easy mount in recess on rocker arm above pushrod. If cam is worn, at all, do not pass go, stay in jail till new cam is found/ground
2/ turn engine over without plugs, look at valve springs at peak lift, coil bind is your enemy, explaining why cam gets worn.
Pete also sent me beehive spring from 1400 to test, me likee, I'm using these, pressures and installed heights to follow (need new valves to do this too)
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Martin, I'm sending you a head with a couple of valves, collets and an early spring. Can you use your tester to see if the 'old' and 'new' springs are different. That'll allow you to get stack height and pressure comparisons which might answer some questions about the shims for early engines.
The head I would only use again under duress on one of my shitheap. Can you see where? :grin:
Pete
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Martin, I'm sending you a head with a couple of valves, collets and an early spring. Can you use your tester to see if the 'old' and 'new' springs are different. That'll allow you to get stack height and pressure comparisons which might answer some questions about the shims for early engines.
The head I would only use again under duress on one of my shitheap. Can you see where? :grin:
Pete
Will do
Let me know actual lift at valve(s) too, can measure this roller cam but don't know rocker arm ratio
Is lift same flattie or roller ? Only has to be longer duration at peak lift to make way better grunt
Did you ever dyno before and after rollers ? Torque curve should have got way longer at near max
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I’ll throw in a couple of rockers too.
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M6 exists in 0,7 and 0,75 thread ,
so a overtightend fit might also be a slightly different thread. they are quite hard to distinguish
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M6 exists in 0,7 and 0,75 thread ,
so a overtightend fit might also be a slightly different thread. they are quite hard to distinguish
Good point..
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At some point the thread pitch changed on the 8V rockers. #879707 replaces 873850. I had a stripped one I replaced, there are 2 pitches used. Pete should know the particulars.
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Yup, I sent Martin both.
I think that the change was because the original, coarser pitch, adjusters deform in use. I don't think it's over-tightening because of where in the removal process they get difficult to extract and during routine adjustments they move just fine. Whether the deformity is down to inadequate material in the adjuster itself and this is fixed by there simply being more metal in the component with a finer thread or whether the damage occurs due to the pizzling they get as the tappets fail and they begin to get hammered I really have no clue.
Unlike smallblocks I've never actually seen one fail by snapping due to over tightening which used to be quite common back in the day. They would rarely snap when being tightened or in service but if they had previously been gorillared they would tend to twist of the top of the adjuster with the nut when you came to loosen them again. The failure point always being flush with the top of the rocker.
Pete
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if they had previously been gorillared they would tend to twist of the top of the adjuster with the nut when you came to loosen them again.
:grin: That would take a serious shaved ape to do that.. I bought a used BWM R100RT one time that the previous "mechanic" decided he needed to use German torque.. Gutentight. :smiley: I replaced a *bunch* of hardware on that one.
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But
These alone will not fix lario, before anyone goes here
1/ check camshaft for wear, dial gauge on all 4 lobes, easy mount in recess on rocker arm above pushrod. If cam is worn, at all, do not pass go, stay in jail till new cam is found/ground
2/ turn engine over without plugs, look at valve springs at peak lift, coil bind is your enemy, explaining why cam gets worn.
Pete also sent me beehive spring from 1400 to test, me likee, I'm using these, pressures and installed heights to follow (need new valves to do this too)
I think you've got it sussed. Look forward to hearing more...need to measure my cam wear but have to get a gauge first and check out the Suzuki springs and replacement valves.Winter jobs....
Cheers
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Martin, check yer PM's. I'll dig out a clutch and the other bits and get them off ASAP.
Interesting project if you can make it work. I think this will closely reflect the 'Gen 2' V85 I expect to appear in a couple of years. I'd prefer it if they went Hi-Cam but we'll see.
Pete
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Pm replied. Please get me prices too, need to order some bits
If they and I are right, no need to lose pushrods, trick is all in cam and rollers
I mentioned the Irving Vincent before in v85 discussion, open secret what's in that
http://amcn.com.au/editorial/10829/
Pushrod Power proven
Easier when you don't have Euro 4 or 5 to meet, my 8v won't either
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Guys,
I measured the valve lift on the left hand pot on my Lario. I did this measuring the vertical movement of spring collar using a ruler and a hand held dial gauge that both gave similar results.
Inlet valves (both) 6-7mm
Exhaust valves (both) 5mm
In Guzzi's Lario handbook the difference between open and closed valves seems to be 8mm and I read elsewhere stock Lario cam lift is 0.3" (7.62 mm).
They are nowhere near being coilbound! I am running Suzuki GN250 springs and stainless valves of unknown manufacture.
Do you agree it looks like the cam is knackered? I'm gonna do the other side.
I have not had the bike running long and it does seem to bog down at higher revs and lack the sparkle I thought it should have.
Thanks
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If all of this is true, I don't know what else it could be.
(thinly disguised bump)
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cam is toast, any perceptible wear is too much
do measure spring installed height, or post pic of rocker adj and top of valve
if ones i have are common fixes they are wrong top caps and keepers have to match
had to shorten pushrods for elephant feet
just waiting for more valve shims but mine should run this week
booked on tas ferry december, 2 up loaded should be good test
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Are you running this with roller tappets?
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Not a great pic but best I could get. Uncompressed Suzuki GN250 spring looks to be 38/39mm? valves are 2 stainless originals and 2 stainless Honda car valves machined to fit (apparently).
I have ordered a later used cam from a points 650 NTX. This should be the later cam with 14mm lobes, part No. 27053362 Plan is to get Martin H in Germany to machine up some followers (they are rarer than rare) to match - unless you have a better solution - roller tappets? I'm in the hands of experts here - not been this deep in to an engine before. Is an elephant foot a roller tappet and where can I get them?? :laugh:
When I get the NTX cam how do I check for wear? I have 10 days to decide if it's good or needs to be sent back.
Springs - is there enough length on these to stop coil bound spring? Dunno, I guess I could fit the new cam and turn by hand (only) and see what clearance there is. I read that OEM springs are 1mm from coil bound (not enough) but how much is enough? If not enough I'll need new springs and valves. Iceman (Guzzi Brian) swears by the later, progressive Guzzi spring used on 2 valves. I will ask him what their fitted length is. He uses stainless 1 piece valves he hgets from China I think but not sure of dimensions.
For general reference here's some more info on springs from some loose spare parts I have that came with the bike. Measured with a dial caliper and easier access than the measurements above so should be a bit more accurate.
Standard OEM Lario valve spring
Loose, uncompressed length in the hand 40.3 mm
Fitted to head but uncompressed 37.5 mm
Thanks
(https://thumb.ibb.co/kKWgtL/measured-at-full-length-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kKWgtL)
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not been this deep in to an engine before. Is an elephant foot a roller tappet and where can I get them??
An elephant foot adjuster looks like this..instead of just having one point that touches the valve, it has a flat ground on a ball that is free to rotate in the adjuster. This keeps even contact on the valve stem. Picture stolen from a VW hp parts place.
(https://www.appletreeauto.com/images/P/4010.jpg)
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Thanks Chuck :thumb: Always good to learn new stuff
Cheers
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roller followers in next one with much more fruit.
this one just blueprinted to prove there is no intrinsic problem.
only mods valve springs, adjusters and some lightening
factory valves pistons etc
time just spent checking and rechecking believe no one I. have to know
not sure about suzuki springs that pic not as bad as mine, rocker arms on mine actually worn from hitting caps.
if you can wait a week or two I will post re using cali1400 springs I am convinced they are correct but setting pressure may be trial error all I want is 500 rpm safe overev
oe lario caps machined to fit
ktm adjusters in first post
followers are refaced orig grinder happy to use. is vital to use good oil with mushroom flatties but only time will prove longevity, tappet wear will not drop valve, cam wear another story
mark 2 with rollers the proper fix but may as well go for broke, rods lighten crank pistons big carbs etc etc. After mk 1 proven
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:popcorn:
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Thanks for the info. I got some more measurements from Lario Brian (Iceman on here) and his preferred springs which are OEM (outer) progressive springs used on late 2 valve models (Nevada/V7) Guzzi part No. 27037521. This spring has a free length of 43.5mm and a fully compressed length of 26mm. The stock Lario spring has a free length of 41mm and a fully compressed length of 27mm. So the progressive spring should be less likely to get coil bound than the OEM spring. This solution is proven on Brians bikes upto 8000RPM (original redline 7800). I have found 8 new springs for cheap and intend to fit them when I change my cam. You also need the specific collets and top and bottom caps as Larios don't fit. I'll start a separate thread on this as I'll need some guidance on cam changing...HTH :grin:
Cheers
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be sure to check all
installed height
full lift spring length
pressure at both. on every valve. assume nothing, shim for desired
coil bind check last, again no assumptions
“ should” never works for me
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Thanks, yes I'll be checking carefully when I get to it. What dimensions are the Cali springs?
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Thanks, yes I'll be checking carefully when I get to it. What dimensions are the Cali springs?
conical
length 1.6”
id top .6
od top .88
id bottom .77
od bottom 1.06
me
top caps oe machined a few thou
bottom suzuki gn i think
nevada etc bottom caps would fit not top
Buttoned it up today, elephant feet look good moving through stroke
but clearance between rockers on overlap is issue, this and rocker hitting pedestal are both things previous fixers did not address. odd, one of my 5 rocker sets needed no work, unmarked by anyone so could have been a qc issue from time. The other four kissed and crashed, scars to prove
fixed with dremel and file
(https://thumb.ibb.co/gUUqVA/548-B5894-D86-D-421-C-A329-D55756422-A39.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gUUqVA)
(https://thumb.ibb.co/h6km3V/E2-A6-E13-B-5597-48-D3-ABA8-7-A7-B430-F9975.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h6km3V)
(https://thumb.ibb.co/eAuqVA/D9-E5-CD36-75-E2-4-B32-82-CC-5-E3-B6-EDBB26-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/eAuqVA)
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:thumb:
Rocker hitting the pedestal - that is a new one, I've not looked but will now, time to buy some Rizzla papers.
Don't understand the clearance between rockers on overlap? So you mean left and right rockers rub/hit each other?
I have lash caps that were part of Guzzi's upgrade on post 87 (?) Larios; intend to use them with Yamaha adjusters
Cheers
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:thumb:
Rocker hitting the pedestal - that is a new one, I've not looked but will now, time to buy some Rizzla papers.
Don't understand the clearance between rockers on overlap? So you mean left and right rockers rub/hit each other?
I have lash caps that were part of Guzzi's upgrade on post 87 (?) Larios; intend to use them with Yamaha adjusters
Cheers
inlet and exhaust not left and right
could be only some but 4 of 5 show rub
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up and running, tickety boo, revs to moon, now only time will prove how long for but I am confident, first 100 miles awesome
pics for chuck, just looks like a v50 with funny plumbing!!
(https://thumb.ibb.co/iuvTX0/5877-FE20-4667-4372-8632-E5-D88-AD2-FEDC.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iuvTX0)
(https://thumb.ibb.co/gTHaC0/CC235406-6-E9-C-4-E29-B9-C2-A559-E6-A1-B4-CB.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gTHaC0)
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Looks fine to me, nice pipes(Dr. J style). Congrats on the finish.
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Attaboy, Martin.. :thumb: I *like* the character of the Lario engine. Hopefully, you've put the pin back in the grenade.. :smiley:
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Been a while....how's the Lario going with the elephants feet etc upgraded valvetrain?
Cheers
Dave
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Been a while....how's the Lario going with the elephants feet etc upgraded valvetrain?
Cheers
Dave
Totally perfect, cannot break it
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Just because
(https://i.ibb.co/bBCPvZq/A02-AAC2-F-3-AD2-4-C65-9-A57-2-CFBCB527421.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bBCPvZq)
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How many miles, now?
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up and running, tickety boo, revs to moon, now only time will prove how long for but I am confident, first 100 miles awesome
pics for chuck, just looks like a v50 with funny plumbing!!
(https://thumb.ibb.co/iuvTX0/5877-FE20-4667-4372-8632-E5-D88-AD2-FEDC.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iuvTX0)
(https://thumb.ibb.co/gTHaC0/CC235406-6-E9-C-4-E29-B9-C2-A559-E6-A1-B4-CB.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gTHaC0)
Looks just like my v65 except for the pipes and front fender. Pretty suhweet!
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Chuck
Just over 6k miles but like you I disappear for winter so won’t see it again till nearly October.
Did check tappets before leaving, no movement, am happy
FG
Didn’t stay like that for long, plastic Racer tank gave me a couple more litres and 25 odd miles more range
Le Mans seat saved me some weight , missus won’t like it but actually way better for me , v65 seat was just too short in front section, will fit a v7 seat for 2 up as on my bb.
Front guard is same as yours, I just took it back to bare plastic, white is under paint
Pic as is now,
(https://i.ibb.co/ZSQmSD9/79-F800-FF-B8-E5-4387-BF0-A-82-F63390-BD76.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZSQmSD9)
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FG
Didn’t stay like that for long, plastic Racer tank gave me a couple more litres and 25 odd miles more range
Le Mans seat saved me some weight , missus won’t like it but actually way better for me , v65 seat was just too short in front section, will fit a v7 seat for 2 up as on my bb.
Front guard is same as yours, I just took it back to bare plastic, white is under paint
Pic as is now,
(https://i.ibb.co/ZSQmSD9/79-F800-FF-B8-E5-4387-BF0-A-82-F63390-BD76.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZSQmSD9)
Yeah that tank would come in handy here, gas stations, especially those that sell premium, are few and far between.
I replaced the plastic fenders with steel ones. The front is from a Honda, the back from a Triumph. I hate plastic stuff on a bike!
(https://i.ibb.co/DR8B6wX/650sp.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DR8B6wX)
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Yeah that tank would come in handy here, gas stations, especially those that sell premium, are few and far between.
I replaced the plastic fenders with steel ones. The front is from a Honda, the back from a Triumph. I hate plastic stuff on a bike!
Funny that, I’ve gone full circle, bought my Le Mans new with plastic front guard and glass seat base/mudguard
Fitted it and many others with ss front guards .
Eventually they cracked, as did T3 etc ss rear guards
Of course the glass seat base survived through hell and back
So, on that I refitted orig plastic guard, about to do same on my uk bike
On the v65 I had to bog the glass rear where people had drilled extra holes but easy as
Front I just got rid of paint and sanded back some road rash scars
Lighter and should last forever, I’m back where I started
But I do hate plastic bits that don’t do anything, didn’t intend to run sidecovers but when I rewired it I found that space where big battery, rectifier etc etc was is perfect for tools, puncture kit , spare gloves, etc. Sidecovers stop it all falling out so they do have function on my bike
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Great to hear its running well :thumb:
Cheers
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Funny that, I’ve gone full circle, bought my Le Mans new with plastic front guard and glass seat base/mudguard
Fitted it and many others with ss front guards .
Eventually they cracked, as did T3 etc ss rear guards
Of course the glass seat base survived through hell and back
So, on that I refitted orig plastic guard, about to do same on my uk bike
On the v65 I had to bog the glass rear where people had drilled extra holes but easy as
Front I just got rid of paint and sanded back some road rash scars
Lighter and should last forever, I’m back where I started
But I do hate plastic bits that don’t do anything, didn’t intend to run sidecovers but when I rewired it I found that space where big battery, rectifier etc etc was is perfect for tools, puncture kit , spare gloves, etc. Sidecovers stop it all falling out so they do have function on my bike
I guess I prefer the metal stuff cause I've gotten used to it on the old Triumphs and the T. The only time I had cracking issues with the SS fenders was on an old Tiger Cub that was ridden off road. Most of them had painted or chrome fenders, mild steel rather than SS, and didn't crack. The ones that are on the v65 are chrome, so we'll see how that goes.
I left the the side covers off cause I've only one battery that I switch off between the v65 and the T. I have looked into making metal covers, talked to a local shop and they said sure, make us patterns we'll do'er. So I made some wood patterns, followed the T's side covers mostly, cause they looked like a simpler shape to duplicate, but when I brought'em in, they said no way, can't do anything like that. So I'll probably put the plastic ones back on at some point, but I'd sure prefer metal.
(https://i.ibb.co/sHgp58N/IMG-2244.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sHgp58N)
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[/quote]up and running, tickety boo, revs to moon, now only time will prove how long for but I am confident, first 100 miles awesome
Maybe biggest understatement on the net
Nearly 4 years later, thing still amazes me, gearchange at 8500-9000 with a little pop, straight into the meat, then another, property addictive.
Or ride it slowly, gentle as a lamb
TICKETY BOO
Anyone contemplating Lario build
JFDI
But please, ignore the nonsnse google will find
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I just picked up a Lario 1986 with 10k miles. how can I tell if the valves have been worked on? Is there a simple (look at this) or am I in for a bunch of digging around? I ride very conservatively compared to what I'm reading here. Thanks
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I just picked up a Lario 1986 with 10k miles. how can I tell if the valves have been worked on? Is there a simple (look at this) or am I in for a bunch of digging around? I ride very conservatively compared to what I'm reading here. Thanks
I can probably tell if someone’s been in there if you post a pic of valve spring compressed (valve FULLY open)
But read first post in this thread, it’s the cam you need to measure.
No matter how conservatively you ride, if the hardening is worn through (as it probably is) it will only wear more, until............
Measuring lift is not difficult but it is possible you could short cut that by getting an oil analysis , ring first and check they can tell, but logic says bits of camshaft have to show up in oil.
Or post pushrod or valve lift measurements here(dial gauge not ruler)
Measure all 4 lobes accurately
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Hi
I'm about to start preventative work on my Lario. It's done 50kms, and I know the first owner who rode it hard, including valve float a couple of times. It's history between him selling it in the early 90s and me acquiring it this year is unknown!
It might have had some work, it's an 88 and I've heard talk of lash caps used on the last ones? Mine has none and was running fine when I got it. However I have decided not to run it until I've made sure every thing will last.
Tomorrow I'm using a dial gauge on the rockers to see if there's any cam wear evident, but I'll probably pull the pistons and look. I'll post my findings once done.
I have a set of the later 2v springs as used by Iceblue, jacksonracingcomau you have spoken (I've been reading the threads!) of installed height etc being critical, but I've seen no figures, is there a figure I should be aiming for? Head assembly will be done by a local engine shop.
Also with the elephant feet mod, what ones exactly did you use? And what exactly needed doing to fit them? I think you said pushrods needed shortening?
I really want to get it right first time and have all the info to triple check everything before lighting the fuse!
Any help greatly appreciated!
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:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Rev.
Don't forget to detail your journey.
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Well, got the heads off today. Before I did I measured as best I could the cams by dial gauge on the rockers over the push rods. First of all that's a really tricky thing to do when your dial gauge adjusts each axis individually.
So side to side they are within 0.1mm of the other side.
However I got figures of 5.5mm exhaust and 6.3mm inlet. I'm not sure what they should be.
the only sign of any wear so far is one adjuster on the L/H inlet has some marks on it. Everything else appears pristine, however someone has been in at least the L/H side before, head gaskets a different type (colour) and a missing washer on the top stud.
Am going to ponder on whether I just do the heads and put it back together, or pull pistons and do the bearings and rings as well. Doing that also apparently gives visual access to the cam
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Different application, and not sure if it will hep, but when building High performance VW motors, it has become common to use elephant (swivel) foot adjusters for the swivel head and constant flat contact on the valve stem. My last build used 911 swivel foot adjusters in 1.7l Type 1 rockers due to the thickness of the adjuster screw (10mm?) In order to get the rockers to clear the swivel foot (aka elephant foot) you had to machine 2mm off the valve side of the rocker. Pretty simple to do.
When I did my first Guzzi valve adjust in 2015, I was pleasantly surprised to find swivel foot adjusters. Part of the reason Guzzi's can rev as high as they do. I actually run 0 clearance on my 2 liter Type 4. With a cam profile that provides a fat torque curve, and proper valve springs, that engine dyno'd at 155 at the crank, and a redline of 6500 (up from 5500).
Point of the ramble is if you find the swivel foot adjusters hit the bottom of the rocker, you can machine/grind the rocker a bit to get clearance. YMMV
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Does it have the wider cams in it?
Not being a Lario guy I gather there are two widths and the wider type is a must.
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It's supposed to being one of the later ones.
I might need to pull pistons and look for my self
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It's supposed to being one of the later ones.
I might need to pull pistons and look for my self
Trust nothing. If you want to have a reliable 4 valve, *everything* will need to be addressed. Don't ask me for the details, though.. as I've said many times I've forgotten more about Guzzis than some know.. but.. I've forgotten. :sad: :smiley:
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HA…!
Good one.
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Well, got the heads off today. Before I did I measured as best I could the cams by dial gauge on the rockers over the push rods. First of all that's a really tricky thing to do when your dial gauge adjusts each axis individually.
So side to side they are within 0.1mm of the other side.
However I got figures of 5.5mm exhaust and 6.3mm inlet. I'm not sure what they should be.
the only sign of any wear so far is one adjuster on the L/H inlet has some marks on it. Everything else appears pristine, however someone has been in at least the L/H side before, head gaskets a different type (colour) and a missing washer on the top stud.
Am going to ponder on whether I just do the heads and put it back together, or pull pistons and do the bearings and rings as well. Doing that also apparently gives visual access to the cam
It doesn’t, cam comes out through timing chest, then followers drop
I’d be pulling cam and followers before moving on if your numbers are even slightly accurate, Much easier to remove rocker pedestal and put dial gauge in pushrod cup OR measure valve travel directly on top collar
Elephant feet part number post #1
Pushrods need shortening to fit, all clearances checked (rockers to each other and to post)
Valve spring installed height depends on pressures with springs you use
I set mine at 75 on seat 150 fully open from memory, crucial that you don’t end up coil bound, no way I could work with Guzzi 2 valve springs for both reasons
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Thanks for that.
Yes this weekends job is to remeasure with the rockers remived.
Will see what that does. Was really hoping to not have to pull the cam
75 and 150, what units?
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Thanks for that.
Yes this weekends job is to remeasure with the rockers remived.
Will see what that does. Was really hoping to not have to pull the cam
All the hope in the world will not fix it and you have to pull cam to get followers out for inspection anyway.
Half an hour of your life to do, an hour worst case
quote author=Mr Revhead link=topic=98265.msg1829466#msg1829466 date=1660256917]
75 and 150, what units?
[/quote]
English pounds, pressure (weight) not currency, yank ones the same, I think
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Thanks for that.
Yes this weekends job is to remeasure with the rockers remived.
Will see what that does. Was really hoping to not have to pull the cam
75 and 150, what units?
Any update ?
Don’t give up, all will be worthwhile when you ride it
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Not giving up! Waiting on parts!
I wasn't going to post in this thread anymore as I've decided I won't use elephants feet adjusters.
Anyway I pulled the heads off and measured direct on the pushrods.
All measured exactly 5.9mm.
I then pulled a cylinder and you can see the cam easily. Cam looks as good as new, 14mm lobes.
So next step is to remove valves and springs and measure them up to see how they are as there is a chance someone has been in here before and applied a fix.
I have coming the Nevada springs, and I'll get my head shop to looking into sourcing valves.
So far it should be on the road for summer :bike-037: