Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: KJDub on November 01, 2018, 12:31:16 AM
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Hi All, I recently purchased with a good friend a 1970 Ambassador. Found in northern Michigan while visiting family and friends. Bike runs, albeit poorly. 10,004 miles on the odo. Bike is heavily patinaed, having spent substantial amount of time outdoors, but is essentially complete. Came with a Calafia fairing sans screen, panniers of unknown provenance, and a metal egg crate. Bet that latter is worth some cash! I'd add a pic but couldn't figure out how to make that work.
Price was right so picked it up and had it shipped west to home, wet home in central WA state. Our plan is to address mechanical/electrical issues and not worry about cosmetics just yet. Just getting going on it, will do some initial investigation this weekend. PO claims to have had cylinders replated and new rings installed. Plan to start with the top ends and carbs. First question, what would be the expected compression pressure for this bike? Should it be done cold or after warming it up?
Thanks for any help offered. Looking forward to working on the bike and being part of this community.
Ken
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Moved to General D , will receive more attention here .
Curious about the claim PO made about having the cylinders plated , seems double checking what was done or not done would be wise.
Welcome to WG .
Dusty
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10,004 miles on the odo. Bike is heavily patinaed, having spent substantial amount of time outdoors,
Ken
Arrrrrggghhh! Even in 1970 the Loops were SOOO much cooler-looking that their British or Jap counterparts, How in heaven's name could anyone leave one with so few miles out in the weather to rot? Sorry, this has been beaten to death before, it's just one of my MAJOR peeves with motorcycle owners.
I was born a Yooper, whereabouts were you visiting? I had a cousin-by-marriage show up at a reunion about 20 yrs ago in Kinross on an Eldo with a set of dual solo saddles on it. He was a Harley/brit bike guy and had no clue about the bike we was currently riding.
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Welcome to the forum, you will find your old loop is very endearing, lots of charm.
You are just down the line from us, you will get all the info you need on here.
Mine was pretty rotten after 20 years in a damp garage with the heads off.
(https://image.ibb.co/dfHNeG/Headless-Wonder.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/iBEqYb/Front.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/b5JHDb/Front-Wheel.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/g4vxDb/DashView.jpg)
You would have a hard job prizing my fingers from the grips now though.
(https://image.ibb.co/mBn0Sc/photo-3.jpg)
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Here, didn't want you to fall over. :wink:
(https://thumb.ibb.co/evdnCf/photo-3-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/evdnCf)
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Hi All, I recently purchased with a good friend a 1970 Ambassador. Found in northern Michigan while visiting family and friends. Bike runs, albeit poorly. 10,004 miles on the odo. Bike is heavily patinaed, having spent substantial amount of time outdoors, but is essentially complete. Came with a Calafia fairing sans screen, panniers of unknown provenance, and a metal egg crate. Bet that latter is worth some cash! I'd add a pic but couldn't figure out how to make that work.
Price was right so picked it up and had it shipped west to home, wet home in central WA state. Our plan is to address mechanical/electrical issues and not worry about cosmetics just yet. Just getting going on it, will do some initial investigation this weekend. PO claims to have had cylinders replated and new rings installed. Plan to start with the top ends and carbs. First question, what would be the expected compression pressure for this bike? Should it be done cold or after warming it up?
Thanks for any help offered. Looking forward to working on the bike and being part of this community.
Ken
Hi Ken,
Great find and welcome....you'll be happy you found it and this site
I have to ask where did you find this bike? also show us some photos. 135 - 150 would be reasonable compression for this motor.
I'm in NW Lower MI
Cheers
Giusto
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Ambassador's are great bikes, I bought my first one in'77,put about 140K on it, bought another and put 130K on that one, by that time it was a mix of both bikes, the best of both that my wife rode and started getting trophys for the oldest bike. It was traded in on a leftover V65C that we still have. I got stuck on Guzzis because I sure enjoyed those Ambassadores as I think you will. A couple things I would change would be the generator mount and a more powerful front brake. If they had made the generator mount with the two bolts into the case crossways from what they are, it wouldn't have been a problem so there are a few fixes for that.
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Thanks for all of your responses. What a great group!
Brider, I was up in the Keweenaw peninsula (pronounced kee-wa-naw, emphasis on the first syllable, for you non-yoopers). My family hails from there. The bike was parked on front of a restaurant in Calumet. Turns out it was the restaurant owner's. He found it parked in a back yard. The PO was no longer able to ride so parked it. The guy I bought it from got it running, then was ready to move it on to the next owner. He didn't want to see it go to a junk yard.
Checked compression today, 155 in the right, 90 in the left. Looks like a teardown is in the future. Drove it around a bit to warm it up first, love that torque curve, even with a half-dead cylinder.
I've figured out how to add a pic. Here's one.
(https://thumb.ibb.co/jkgjtL/MG-Ambo.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jkgjtL)
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Cool . That fairing greatly resembles a model that was made in Tulsa in the 70's and 80's .
Dusty
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That looks pretty nice. I'd check the valves on the side with low compression.
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Here's another pic, after I removed the fairing and luggage. And washed the worst of the grunge off as well.
(https://thumb.ibb.co/mJoT50/MG-Ambo-2.jpg) (http://https:/ ibb.co/mJoT50)
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Kiwi_Roy, Looks like you did an amazing job on that resto! Are you in the PNW as well?
Guisto, I've spent some time in your neighborhood. When kids were younger I would meet my brother and his fam in Empire, south of you . We'd rent a house, enjoy the beach and visit family in the area. I have family scattered all over Michigan, from the Keweenaw to the Motor City.
Turin and Dusty, I plan on pulling down the top ends to determine if the plating was actually performed and also to inspect pistons and rings. Will check valve clearances prior to teardown. PO said it was locked up when he got it. Put new rings in but used old pistons. Also claims had a valve job done. Makes me suspicious of the pistons. Don't think he was a detail oriented kind of guy, not into measuring things with a micrometer, etc. But he did save the bike from a worse fate, so can't complain.
Ken
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Dang that looks like a good score
I would enjoy having that
enjoy
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Great find! You will love that bike. You would have had to re-do the cylinders anyway, it's a must do. Gardiloni kit with cylinders and pistons run about $400 ea. I had to rebuild my Ambo, basically had the same experience, didn't quite know what I had bought. Now I have two loops.
Your link to the large photo got broken somehow. Should be: https://ibb.co/mJoT50
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Kiwi_Roy, Looks like you did an amazing job on that resto! Are you in the PNW as well?
Not really, I didn't try to make it back to original, it was too far gone, I just rebuilt it it how I wanted. The white paint was the original colour though.
Most of the chrome was rusted away, I just repainted with POR 15. Yours looks like its all there.
Mines an Eldorado a 72
New Westminster BC, a suburb of Vancouver
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Not really, I didn't try to make it back to original, it was too far gone, I just rebuilt it it how I wanted. The white paint was the original colour though.
Most of the chrome was rusted away, I just repainted with POR 15.
Love what you did! What mufflers did you put on it?
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Love what you did! What mufflers did you put on it?
The bike came with something like old Brit mufflers with no baffles
The mufflers you see are Guzzi branded, they were on a Lario I bought.
I found the original Lario mufflers which freed them up.
You seem to have the correct ones on your bike, the paintwork patina is wonderful.
You will soon find out the old girl will attract lots of nice comments whenever you park it.
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That looks pretty nice. I'd check the valves on the side with low compression.
Thanks for the advice Turin. I did a leakdown test, the right leaked 4%, the left leaked 90, whistling out through the carb. Popped the rocker cover, exhaust clearance in spec, intake clearance is zilch. Reset the clearance, left now leaked 15%, compression up to 130 psi from 90. Those numbers seem borderline, mabye the valve was damaged slightly? Anyways, bike now sounds like a twin and definitely has more power. Still not up to snuff, carbs all gummed up. Onward and upward!
KJ
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Make sure you join the discussion forum for LoopFrame_Guzzi over on yahoo groups. And reference all your needs on Greg Bender's site at:
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe.html (http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe.html)
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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Brider, I was up in the Keweenaw peninsula (pronounced kee-wa-naw, emphasis on the first syllable, for you non-yoopers). My family hails from there.
My Father's family is in L'Anse, and I have an aunt that lives in Baraga. Mom's side is from Rudyard, strung out between there and the Soo (Sault St. Marie, for you non-Yoopers).
I rode my old Convert over the Mackinac Bridge and up to the Soo one year, and also my old '74 Eldo across the bridge in October in a later year, in a snow squall, Had to be escorted across the bridge because the winds were so bad. Sadly, never turned to the west across the bridge to make it to the L'Anse-end of the UP.
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Thanks for the advice Turin. I did a leakdown test, the right leaked 4%, the left leaked 90, whistling out through the carb. Popped the rocker cover, exhaust clearance in spec, intake clearance is zilch. Reset the clearance, left now leaked 15%, compression up to 130 psi from 90. Those numbers seem borderline, mabye the valve was damaged slightly? Anyways, bike now sounds like a twin and definitely has more power. Still not up to snuff, carbs all gummed up. Onward and upward!
KJ
Here's a trick you can try. Bring the left back up to TDC and hook up your leak down tester. While pressure is on, take your copper hammer and smite :smiley: that intake valve rocker a few times. Aircraft mechanics call this "staking" the valves. Many times it is just corrosion and carbon on the valve and seat, and this will blow it out. I *have* brought long dormant engines with low compression back to normal this way.
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Everyone knows that 1970 was the best year for Loops. :tongue:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Ambo/i-5JPBqPH/0/dc9d6694/XL/20180714_113838-XL.jpg) (https://dougritchie.smugmug.com/Ambo/i-5JPBqPH/A)
They're great bikes to work on. You're gonna love riding it.
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Who sells the side mount reflectors we see in the stunning example WCG posted?
I had some cheap Chinese ones but they have all dropped off over the miles.
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I got those from Moe @ CycleGarden
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Every year loop is great
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If your looking for reflectors, check out the British bike guys, Lucas reflectors. DonG
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If your looking for reflectors, check out the British bike guys, Lucas reflectors. DonG
Thanks for that it seems Lucas RER25 is the standard model Amber in front Red at rear
Led me to this
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_fender_reflectors.html
Roy
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Roy try British Cycle Supply in Wolfsville Nova Scotia, they should have what you need. DonG
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My Father's family is in L'Anse, and I have an aunt that lives in Baraga. Mom's side is from Rudyard, strung out between there and the Soo (Sault St. Marie, for you non-Yoopers).
Hey Brider, I had breakfast in L'Anse on the way down south. My brother and I poked around north of L'Anse up towards Pequaming looking for property. That's my brother's hobby, he never actually buys any! Many decades ago I spent weeks wandering around the UP on my Honda CB 500 four, a $350 special that didn't run when I bought it. A few hours of work and it was ready to hit the road, never left me anywhere. Passed through the village of Slapneck (Ha! Mosquitoes must be bad there) while exploring the top speed capabilities of the bike. Locals probably just thought it was a big one passing through! Great memories.
KJ
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Hey WitchCityGuzzi, where did you get that seat? Looks real slim, like it.
Ken W
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Hi all, finally set aside some time to work on my Ambo. Removed both wheels, found I couldn't turn any of the bearings with a finger stuffed in them. Were they rotating on the axles? No obvious signs of wear on the axles. Not sure how to remove the bearings, there are sleeves in the inner races. How do I get those out? I've done this on other bikes but the sleeves get in the way. Any suggestions greatly appreciated.
Removed the forks and replaced the steering stem bearings. Originals felt notchy, found corrosion upon inspection. One fork slider felt a bit loose, other felt ok. Will clean and replace oil, potential rebuild saved for the future.
Removed heads and inspected cylinders. Looked good, cross hatching apparent, slight golden brown tint, appear to be nikasil as claimed by PO. Will replace gaskets and reassemble, checking for magnetism as final precaution prior to.
Dropped oil pan, poked around in sludge, didn't find any obvious flakes of chrome. Did find a piece of steel (magnetic, stuck to screwdriver) About .020" wide by a few thou thick x 1/2" long. Not worried, have found much worse in other bikes (a gear tooth in a Ducati single sump, rode the piss out of it with any problem, now next in the rebuild queue when I get the cylinder back from boring for the 10:1 piston).
Love this bike, did all of the above with my buddy and co-owner Rees in about 8 hrs. Our goal is to get the bike back on the road in good mechanical condition but retaining the patina due its age.
Best to all!
Ken W
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See here for wheel bearing and fork reconstruction issues.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe.html (http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe.html)
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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Hi all, finally set aside some time to work on my Ambo. Removed both wheels, found I couldn't turn any of the bearings with a finger stuffed in them. Were they rotating on the axles? No obvious signs of wear on the axles. Not sure how to remove the bearings, there are sleeves in the inner races. How do I get those out? I've done this on other bikes but the sleeves get in the way. Any suggestions greatly appreciated.
If it has fresh seals, you might not be able to turn them with your finger. But, it's a good idea to clean and repack the wheel bearings on any Loop you don't know the maintenance history of. Once the seal is removed, the (tapered roller) bearing race with "sleeves" will come right out. No need to remove the "sleeves" unless you're replacing the bearing. The seals can be removed with a paint can opener, best to have new seals on hand though. Do keep track of the shims.
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Hi Charlie, thanks for the advice! Are the seals a standard item available at bearing supply houses? I looked on the MG Cycle website and didn't find any listed.
Best, Ken
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Hi Charlie, thanks for the advice! Are the seals a standard item available at bearing supply houses? I looked on the MG Cycle website and didn't find any listed.
Best, Ken
Odd size, likely special order from any bearing supply retailer. I buy mine from MG Cycle:
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=79&products_id=1358
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Thanks Charlie. Somehow I overlooked that item when searching the MG Cycle website.
Are the shims located in the center, between the two sleeves?
Thanks again, Ken
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Thanks Charlie. Somehow I overlooked that item when searching the MG Cycle website.
Are the shims located in the center, between the two sleeves?
Thanks again, Ken
There will be a central spacer tube and one or more shims. The shims are usually at only one end of the tube and tend to stick on the inner side of the bearing.
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Charlie
wondering,,,,,just had mine apart and didn't find any shims. I remember thinking it odd, but it seems to spin fine. Should this be the case and where can do you buy shims?
thanks,
Mark
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Charlie
wondering,,,,,just had mine apart and didn't find any shims. I remember thinking it odd, but it seems to spin fine. Should this be the case and where can do you buy shims?
thanks,
Mark
The shims were probably stuck to one or the other of the bearings. They'll stay put even through cleaning and repacking of the bearing. I need to use a magnet and/or pick to get them loose most of the time.
Best practice to check shimming is clean everything, don't grease the bearings (just light oil), no seals, assemble on an axle with the nut tightened down. Very slight play is okay, tight is not.
I buy "generic" shims from McMaster-Carr.
http://thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_wheel_bearing_shims.html
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Charlie
thanks for that - next time I have the wheel off I'll double check
Mark
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Removed the seals from the wheel bearings and found that the bearings did rotate freely without them. There was just a film of grease on the bearings, it looked like they had never been repacked. Wiped the grease from the outer races, found small pits in three of them and a small chip of metal in one! So time for new bearings, ordered them from MG Cycles. My blind bearing puller doesn't have a big enough collet for these bearings. How have others removed the outer races from the hubs?
Thanks for your suggestions!
Best, Ken
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How have others removed the outer races from the hubs?
I just (carefully) drive them out from behind with a long brass drift and hammer.
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Turns out that the Motion Pro steering race remover works perfectly on the wheel bearing races! My partner on the project bought one for replacing the steering bearings, so we doubled the utility of that tool!
Ken
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Hmmm, I see that McMaster Carr sells shims in packs of 25! Anybody have any shims they want to sell? I'm making a spacer to allow me to torque things up before checking clearance, off to use my friend's lathe. After that I should have some idea what thicknesses I may need.
Ken
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Hmmm, I see that McMaster Carr sells shims in packs of 25! Anybody have any shims they want to sell? I'm making a spacer to allow me to torque things up before checking clearance, off to use my friend's lathe. After that I should have some idea what thicknesses I may need.
Ken
I may have some, depending on what thickness you need.
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Made the spacer last night, assembled each wheel/axle/bearing, torqued it up and measured end float with a dial gage. Rear had .004"-.005", front had .003"-.004". Each assembly had only one shim, rear was .130" thick, front was .150" thick. The end float seems a bit high, reading on this old tractor suggests .002". Looks like I have to get some shorter shims in a selection of thicknesses to get to where they should be. Any comments or suggestions?
Thanks!
Ken
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Made the spacer last night, assembled each wheel/axle/bearing, torqued it up and measured end float with a dial gage. Rear had .004"-.005", front had .003"-.004". Each assembly had only one shim, rear was .130" thick, front was .150" thick. The end float seems a bit high, reading on this old tractor suggests .002". Looks like I have to get some shorter shims in a selection of thicknesses to get to where they should be. Any comments or suggestions?
Thanks!
Ken
Use emery paper to reduce the thickness of the shims or length of the spacer?
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If you let me or Charlie know the length of shim you need in MM instead of inches, I probably have enough to send you. I have to find them and see what I have. Or just buy 1 bag of each metric shims, like .2 and .3mm. You can combine them to make odd or even lengths.
You would need to replace your stock thick shims with a set of shims that make the correct length.
Tom
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Use emery paper to reduce the thickness of the shims or length of the spacer?
Charlie,
I had my doubts about this method, having tried it on Ducati single opening valve shims many yrs ago. Those things are hard, you could sand for a long time to take a thou off! But nothing ventured nothing gained. So I mounted a hose clamp on a 20mm impact socket, extending just far enough to capture the shim. Got out my handy-dandy stone rolling plate and laid down a sheet of 220 sandpaper. It took minutes of clockwise and counter clockwise motion gripping the socket and pressing down lightly to take off a thou or two. Ok, I'm dead nuts on with .002-.003" end float. Clearly the shims are not hardened, no need. Thanks for the idea!
Tom, appreciate the offer of shims, doesn't look like I will need them.
You guys are great!
Best, Ken
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Being a belt and suspenders man, I also ordered shims from McMaster Carr. No big deal, only $20. So now I will shortly have 10 1mm shims and 25 0.1mm shims. Anybody need them, contact me and I will forward them at no charge.
Best, Ken
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Hi All, Long hiatus now making progress again. New wheel bearings installed, new steering stem bearings installed. Heads pulled to confirm nikasil (yes), oil pan pulled to poke thru sludge for chrome bits (no). Forks disassembled for new seals and bushings, waiting for paint on sliders to cure before reassembly. Brakes disassembled, cleaned, lubed, reassembled, next step is arcing shoes to match deglazed drums. Fasteners being derusted using oxalic acid, this process has been working fairly well.
Question: how is the crank arm on the rear brake pivot shaft removed? This is the shaft that the foot lever is mounted on. Need to remove it, derust it, polish up the shaft where it pivots in the frame and lube things up. I have removed the clamp bolt but have been unable to get the arm to move on the shaft. Is there a key? Splines? Just a tight press fit?
Thanks for your help!
Ken
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Question: how is the crank arm on the rear brake pivot shaft removed? This is the shaft that the foot lever is mounted on. Need to remove it, derust it, polish up the shaft where it pivots in the frame and lube things up. I have removed the clamp bolt but have been unable to get the arm to move on the shaft. Is there a key? Splines? Just a tight press fit?
Did you remove the circlip on the left outer end of the shaft? Once the pinch bolt is removed from the bellcrank, I use a small hammer to drive it off of the splines, while pulling the shaft out to the right.
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Thanks Charlie, I'll give that a shot today.
KJ