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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ncdan on November 04, 2018, 04:25:28 PM
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Ok guys let's have a discussion or possible debate on the pros and cons of different cold weather ridding gear. Over the past 50 years of ridding I have used three types of systems of cold weather ridding gear. Leather with thermal under layers, textile with zip out liners and full cold suits designed for maximum warmth. I have never used heated because of cost and if it's that cold I chose my Jeep:)
I will disclose my opinion on the best system later in the discussion. We may actually learn something from each other.
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Here a fourth option, the old school European method: Leathers always, textile over the leathers when it's cold or wet.
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Textile with electric today :thumb: that’s what I rid in :grin:
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Here a fourth option, the old school European method: Leathers always, textile over the leathers when it's cold or wet.
This made me laugh ..
I have fond memories of overnight winter rides in Southern Australia wet, cold (0c). Dressed in woolen longjohns, jumpers, two piece leathers and a Belstaff jacket and overpants. Kept the water and cold out but I was forever in danger of wetting myself when I stopped at a servo as it would take two weeks written notice to be able to get out of all that gear.
These days it is modern woolen thermals, Two piece leathers or a two piece Synthetic "dry Suit" and a Goretex pants and jacket liner.
Does the job and much quicker to cater for "old man" type problems caused by too much coffee.
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It get's cold in NC ?
(https://thumb.ibb.co/mx29yL/IMG-0383-zpsc7orsrlm-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mx29yL)
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Textile with electric today :thumb:
+1 :thumb: when it's cold and/or wet-cold
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Textile with electric today :thumb:
I wore out three leather jackets before going to textile. The electric vest is prolly the number one thing I've bought since I started riding M/c's in 1959.
Tex
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The bottom of a case of water works well for me. Plastic and corrugated cardboard keep the core a lot warmer. Zip into the front of the jacket.
All of my leathers breathe so I prefer synthetic gear when it is cold. I have a one piece Olympia suit with a full liner. No gap around the waist for air to leak in.
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It get's cold in NC ?
(https://thumb.ibb.co/mx29yL/IMG-0383-zpsc7orsrlm-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mx29yL)
We ride year around but yes it's not unusual to get high teens in the day and single digits at night and mornin, in Jan and February, a couple days later it could make it to 50 degrees F.
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I wore out three leather jackets before going to textile. The electric vest is prolly the number one thing I've bought since I started riding M/c's in 1959.
It has to be very cold, but if it is I'll wear an electric vest under my (trim fit, race style) leathers, with the aforementioned waterproof textile jacket on top. Rain pants on top too if it's wet. I don't wear textile gear without race style leathers underneath unless it's a very casual ride.
If it's really cold (for example riding over a Swiss pass in snow) I'll be wearing a T-shirt, Patagonia jersey, electric vest on high (tight), race leathers, textile jacket (not tight) with neck closure sealed tight around jersey, and rain pants. Grips are heated and will be on high, with hand protectors to block the wind and the thinnest gloves I can get away with (so as not to lose feel). Gauntlets for the gloves go between leathers and textile jacket. Boots are Sidi On Roads (tall, lined), over the leathers and under the rain pants, with tall ski socks.
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Actually Dan was out today with a couple buddies and the liner textile gear was great and my favorite. Easily adaptable and I love the un zipping vents . Won't be going back to leather anytime soon. I've ridden in cold rain many times with my Olympia jacket and have been dry and warm. Well worth the $.
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I wear an Olympic Air Glide jacket year round. Air Glide pants in spring,summer and fall. Ranger pants in winter. Works well here in California.
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Actually Dan was out today with a couple buddies and the liner textile gear was great and my favorite. Easily adaptable and I love the un zipping vents . Won't be going back to leather anytime soon. I've ridden in cold rain many times with my Olympia jacket and have been dry and warm. Well worth the $.
Is the jacket waterproof itself or do you need to add the rain pants and top for the waterproofing?
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The jacket itself is waterproof but without pants your arse will eventually be soaked. I always keep some cheap rain pants on hand when touring.
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Textile with a heated jacket and light layered fleece of some sort.
Works a treat. I NEVER thought I'd go that way but after I did 4 seasons ago the FIRST thing out of my mouth was why in the heck did I wait so long?
I do use leather from 60 degrees and up.
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Maybe the best part is that a heated jacket is not bulky. Also, get one that is uninsulated. As the temp climes during the day you can turn it off and not overheat or even need to stop. And, when you travel light it doubles as a "all around" jacket. My .02. YMMV, and most likely will.
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I've used heated gear for many yrs. Likely started in the late 70's. For me the best of cold weather inventions for riding mc's is heated gloves. Most of my bikes over the years don't accommodate bark busters, etc. The gloves, as long as I'm wearing the jacket, plug in and have separate, variable heat control. Heated grips keep your palms warm. Gloves warm your entire hand and are interchangeable betwixt any and all mc's. R3~
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Thin, long-sleeved t-shirt - with heated jacket over that.
Some manner of textile, highly water-resistant jacket over the heated jacket.
Textile, waterproof overpants for those cold days. Leather chaps for temps 50-ish and up.
If ya can't have heated gear - I would still go with the textile gear. It's lighter and typically less bulky. Heavy fleece underneath helps. This is the reason that we finally broke down and bought heated gear. We were layered up like the Stay-Puff Marshmallow Man
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I doubt the stator on my Lemans could keep up with heated gear. Maybe if I shut the headlight off? My friend on the 1600 had heated vest,gloves and seat. And probably had kilowatts to spare.
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Gore-Tex outer on textile jacket and pants.
Aerostich for me, Rukka for Fay. No separate rain gear, warm when it needs to be warm (zipped up vents and layered), when it's warm, open the vents.
You can go anywhere in any weather and stay warm and dry.
Lannis
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I doubt the stator on my Lemans could keep up with heated gear. Maybe if I shut the headlight off? My friend on the 1600 had heated vest,gloves and seat. And probably had kilowatts to spare.
FYI the same Bosch charging system on my BMW R100GS will keep up with an electric vest and grips, wit a small (I’m guessing 55 W) headlight.
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Gore-Tex outer on textile jacket and pants.
Aerostich for me, Rukka for Fay. No separate rain gear, warm when it needs to be warm (zipped up vents and layered), when it's warm, open the vents.
You can go anywhere in any weather and stay warm and dry.
Lannis
When you say gortex outer are you saying you have gortex rain suit?
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When you say gortex outer are you saying you have gortex rain suit?
No, jacket and pants with Gore-Tex exterior. No rain suit, that's the good part. Don't have to carry it, don't have to put it on on, hopping around on one leg on the side of the road.
There are very few brands of them made, and they're expensive. Aerostich, Klim, Rukka, the high range of Olympia, and a few more obscure ones. $600+ for the jackets, $500+ for the pants at a minimum, sometimes twice that.
Fay and I did the research, bought 'em, and then went on a 7500 mile trip in them. The only way to go .... well, not really, but a good way to go.
Lannis
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I'll say one thing Dan. If you like cold weather riding, you're going to love the 1400 bike. You tuck your legs against those warm heat shields on the throttle bodies and it's like having the floor heat on in your car. Best cold weather bike ever. :thumb:
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I'll say one thing Dan. If you like cold weather riding, you're going to love the 1400 bike. You tuck your legs against those warm heat shields on the throttle bodies and it's like having the floor heat on in your car. Best cold weather bike ever. :thumb:
I'm still working on a better lower design to keep the wind off my upper body. The Harley lowers turned around backwards does much better than the little dinky factory ones but still not the calm pocket of air that I'm looking for. The Calvin had lower shields on the crash bars but this bike offers no such animals:(
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I rode old Greensboro Highway in NC today on my Eldorado 1400 with factory windshield and lowers, leather jacket with heated liner. The heated liner is worth the money and works over a wide range of temperatures.
What a great bike that Eldo is!
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For years now I haven't been able to justify the weight, bulk, and inefficiency of packing leather on any long trips. Textile layers (no heaters) do me nicely. I do have a lot of leather and I prefer to wear it on day or weekend runs when the weather will not be a factor, but with modern fabrics, aside from gloves, distance riding in leather is silly.
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For years now I haven't been able to justify the weight, bulk, and inefficiency of packing leather on any long trips. Textile layers (no heaters) do me nicely. I do have a lot of leather and I prefer to wear it on day or weekend runs when the weather will not be a factor, but with modern fabrics, aside from gloves, distance riding in leather is silly.
When I look at the road going by at 80 mph or so and imagine jumping off (again) leathers are my choice, and silly isn't the word that comes to mind. Fear must have something to do with my lack of frivolity :grin: I've done it twice at those kinds of speeds over the last 35 years and was happy not to have bled a drop either time. One time was on a long trip and I was able to pick up the bike after crashing at 80 mph, and do another 1500 miles before I was home. The bike low sided and slid on saddlebag and fairing with amazingly little damage. The quality textile jacket I was wearing on the outside almost protected the leathers, but not quite. Well enough that the damage to the leathers could be easily repaired by the manufacturer, so for that much it was good. The other time at 50 mph or so with no outer layer, the leathers took $400 to repair but I'm still wearing them. I don't pack leathers on the bike, I wear them. The extra jacket goes in a dedicated duffle bag when not in use, bungeed on top of one of the hard bags using bungee loops - you can get a set of four good bungee loops from Aerostich for $15 :wink:
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Nowadays there's decent textiles that work well (Rukka, Held, Klim, BMW & the like), but they cost as much as good leather. And leather I've found to resist abrasion better, while the textile might be good but only until the first off. So I use leather - wear it, don't pack it - with heated liners & superfine merino next to the skin. My leather trousers have zips to mid thigh (useful) and also keep the pouring rain out for a couple of hours. If raining more, then a rain jacket, & pants (with zips to the waist)., and those Rain Off over gloves from NZ.
Note that I don't use zip in liners any more, the heated jacket liner works better, as does the uber light down jacket (packs down tiny - the size of a pair of socks). Luxury.
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Modern HIGH QUALITY textiles are as abrasion resistant as leather. It is possible to buy much lower quality textiles with fancy names that are rubbish and will melt at a very low point. Old neglected leather will also have it's protection value drop quite low.
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Modern HIGH QUALITY textiles are as abrasion resistant as leather. It is possible to buy much lower quality textiles with fancy names that are rubbish and will melt at a very low point. Old neglected leather will also have it's protection value drop quite low.
King, I hear your point on the issue of superior quality textile but from what I've seen of them they are as costly as leather and possibly even more bulky than leather by the time the armor is added.
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For short day rides at cooler temps without rain I will use leather, but for long trips i will wear the Stich.
I have crashed a couple of times while wearing the Aerostich suit and neither time I was seriously hurt, still have the suit with some road rash but still serviceable. I do have the hip pads in the pants and I'm glad that I had them in those crashes because my hip hit the pavement first and I'm sure that things wouldn't have been so good without those pads.
In really cold weather, nothing but textile as there is more room in the suit to accommodate electric gear.
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I'm agreeing w/ KOF textiles don't detiorate like hides, that's why race organizer's don't allow old suits. One of the hidden secret textile Mfg.s I use is " Moto Port" it's all bespoke ,no alterations needed .race approved Kevlar is available , I'm fond of the 500 denier nylon a bit pricey but, my kit is almost 20 Yrs. Old . Slid it a couple times &walked away ! I've replaced jacket zipper & sleeve Velcro twice
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Full disclosure. Canadian Prairie Rider, ride from "ice free" in the Spring, to "ice on the roads" in late fall.
I'm a layers guy. Hot or cold, the base layer is always the Stanfield one-piece wool, with wool socks, and a wool "Buff" around the neck.
If it's hot, then the Stanfields also functions as my only shirt, buttoned up or down as needed. Pull on the armoured kevlar riding pants. Leather gloves. My riding jacket is armoured waxed canvas. Biltwell gringo helmet and goggles. I soak the buff in ice water at every stop.
At the extreme cold end of things (which was, in my riding history, at it's most extreme, -16 degrees C.) an extra pair of wool underwear, top and bottom as a base layer under the stanfields, a button up wool shirt (army surplus) over all that, and a THIN windbreaker. Same riding pants as the rest of the year. Same armoured waxed canvas jacket, but I put on an insulated Carharrt vest over it. I have another cold weather "buff" that is fleece for the neck and wool for the face. I break out the heated gloves, or layer up... wool liner glove, covered by a latex glove, covered by a riding glove. Same helmet and goggles.
Wool is king. It gets me through everything. Hot, cold, rain... always wool.
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Cordura and Kevlar are plastic (nylon and aramid respectively) and do deteriorate in the sun over time. Some may remember Moto Port suits being tested and they did not match leather for abrasion resistance, only strength which is not the primary issue. Leather can be maintained and last for decades if the stiching and seams are done properly. It is still and may always be the predominant material for race suits where people plan on falling off, they don't consider it a distant possibility.
An electric vest should be worn tight for best effect, and mine fits under my two piece zip together leathers. The cord can be run out of the gap in the waist zipper which looks a little funny but on a cold electric vest day it's all under my textile jacket, which extends maybe 6 inches below the leathers waist seam.
I agree about layers, the daily fine tuning they allow is helpful especially when you might be on top of an 8000 ft mountain one day and in a hot valley the next - or both on the same day. Reconfiguring at a coffee or lunch break works for me.
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For short day rides at cooler temps without rain I will use leather, but for long trips i will wear the Stich.
Yep, me too. I like the feel of wool and leather, but it doesn't keep the water out. So for day rides with a dry forecast, leather. And on long trips, toting extra gear for rain, and stopping to put it on and take it off and put it on .... doesn't work for me. So the Aerostich.
Lannis
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I have a River Road (Tucker Rocky) 3/4 length textile with a zip out liner I have never taken out. Room underneath for poly sleeveless vest &-or a non hoodie sweatshirt, and I wear a pull over neck warmer. Textile over pants with full length leg zippers and boots with no laces (air can't get in). windshield/fairing and bark busters also a big help
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Absolutely correct. many of the aramid fabrics are UV sensitive. Prolonged exposure will compromise the strength and integrity of the fabric.
Leather needs to be maintained with non silicone based products. In fact, one should avoid any type of pretro-chemical treatment for leather. That included a LOT of big box products. If you see petroleum distillates of any kind move on. You might also consider not purchasing leather garments with Kevlar(tm) thread or similar. They can cut right thru in certain impact and slide scenarios.
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I recently purchased a Belstaff roadmaster motorcycle jacket with armor in the shoulders and elbows. Yes it’s a wax cotton jacket, but not quite like the old gear. I still hate the zipper but the jacket does look good off the bike. I also found an establishment that will professionally re-wax the jacket for $50 bucks, which is cool because I have two Aerostch wax cotton jackets that I can’t get waterproofed even though I’ve done them a couple of times.
If anyone is interested: New England Reproofers for the wax treatment.
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NCDAN,
It can be that way, or not. But I know what you mean for sure.
I have a Vanson that's my favorite by a mile but it's heavy, still a bit stiff after YEARS of riding, and built like a tank.
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NCDAN,
It can be that way, or not. But I know what you mean for sure.
I have a Vanson that's my favorite by a mile but it's heavy, still a bit stiff after YEARS of riding, and built like a tank.
Yea, I think what it comes down to is that a garment which offers superior protection is going to be a bit stiff and bulky regardless of material. I have a leather California Highway Patrol motor jacket that I got back in the early 80s, it's a Schott, made in NYC and it's still stiff, to a point. It's made from horse hide and weights 5lbs. It has a scraped on the shoulder where a tractor made a Uturn in the roadway without attempting to look to see if anyone may be passing. Cracked a couple ribs but no road rash!
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I have a leather suit in SoCal, but gave up on leather in the Midwest years (and years) ago. Too cold when it's cold, too hot when it's hot. Need to carry a rain suit, etc. To answer the OPs question, textile for cold wx..
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I have a leather suit in SoCal, but gave up on leather in the Midwest years (and years) ago. Too cold when it's cold, too hot when it's hot. Need to carry a rain suit, etc. To answer the OPs question, textile for cold wx..
You forgot "heavy as a very heavy thing" when wet. Yeah, I love the abrasion resistance, but I'm not racing. If I was, I'd be wearing dead kangaroo.
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I use both leather and textile depending on mood. Battery powered electric vest, heated grips. Works well into the teens. Love the feel of a leather jacket
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
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I always wear my well-maintained leathers with waterproofs as necessary which is most of the time in winter. There isn't any shortage of rain here. All my leathers are treated with wax so they don't get soaked and, although they will never be completely waterproof, I don't have to rush to stop and suit up.
My winter kit.
Top half. Thermal base layer, shirt, wool jumper, windproof mid-layer jacket, leather jacket without its liner, waterproof jacket. I wear a buff but can't get on with a balaclava.
Bottom half. Thermal base layer, sealskin socks, leather trousers and well-waxed leather boots. I sometimes wear leg-warmers (remember them?) up over my knees. Waterproof over-trousers that zip open from waist to ankle. No one-leg-in-the-trouser-dance for me!
This year I have invested in some Gerbings heated gloves but have yet to try them. It's always my hands which are the problem. Till now I have worn silk liner gloves, winter leather gloves and gortex overmits.
I also ride behind leg shields and fairing/screen with hand protection in winter. The naked bike gets put away.
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I got a First Gear Thermo 6 years ago for just under $200. It's a one piece with 2 way leg zippers, waterproof, and comfortable down to 20 degrees. Above 60 degrees it's too warm. No armor.
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I got one of the EDZ suoer lightweight tops sold in the UK after a recommendation from a KoF dealer in the UK.
Folds up to the size of a softball, weights about 4 oz, and adds what seems like at least 10degrees extra warmth. It's always tossed into a tank bag or top case as supplied by the bike, and works an absolute treat.
Looks like Aerostitch sells something similar.
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I got one of the EDZ suoer lightweight tops sold in the UK after a recommendation from a KoF dealer in the UK.
Folds up to the size of a softball, weights about 4 oz, and adds what seems like at least 10degrees extra warmth. It's always tossed into a tank bag or top case as supplied by the bike, and works an absolute treat.
Looks like Aerostitch sells something similar.
For sure, some of the new cold weather gear all but eliminates electric stuff in all but the extreme weather.
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I have a ten year old Gore-Tex Windstopper N2S thermal from my cycling days. (similar to the one below)
Very thin, very breathable, windproof and designed to be worn as a base layer (Next 2 Skin).
It is also surprisingly shower/rain resistant for something that does not have sealed seams.
Lives in my top box during Spring, Summer and Autumn.
Goes under my ventilated summer jacket when it is cool or bucketing down with rain and keeps me warm and dry.
Particularly useful on the workday commute as it goes over my business shirt and keeps me dry on rainy days.
I've also used it as single layer under my leathers in winter.
(https://thumb.ibb.co/erPNqA/gorewindstoppern2whitebkgrd-630-80.jpg) (https://ibb.co/erPNqA)
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Columbia also make a line of ski/casual clothing called OmniHeat .
This is "Space Blanket" technology that uses silver dots to make a internally reflective garment that keeps the heat inside whilst allowing it to breathe and keep the wind out.
My partner and daughter use the 'puffer' style jacket for winter as it is windproof, shower proof and very thin (not the "Michelin Man" look you get from Down Jackets)
I will probably buy a set of the pants to use under my leathers or textile pants.
(https://thumb.ibb.co/crGcqA/gallery-1457390458-columbia-omni-heat-veloca-vixen-pant.jpg) (https://ibb.co/crGcqA)
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Speaking of leather, check out this 35 year old California Highway Patrol issued motor officer jacket. These were horse hide, tougher than tan cow hide. This one never actually got pliable, it's still heavy and stiff but surprisingly comfortable when actually in an upright position. It has a kidney brace and wide loops to allow the Sam Brown gun belt. It is warm with good under layers. Old school for sure, I got it in 83, we kissed the pavement in 98. It protected my hide but not my ribs:(
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Textile with electric today :thumb: that’s what I rid in :grin:
In warmer climes, I rid myself of leather. :wink: Winter is more for leather with thermal liners.
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Speaking of leather, check out this 35 year old California Highway Patrol issued motor officer jacket.
Can't see it ... ?
Lannis
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Sorry Lannis, old timers syndrome kicked in before I finished the task. That seems to happen more and more:(
(https://thumb.ibb.co/fSKP8V/FE39-B86-A-6792-4490-8498-317-B947-D94-F1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fSKP8V)
Click on the picture for a better shot
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Schott jackets are about 1 degree removed from armor!
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Schott jackets are about 1 degree removed from armor!
And just about as heavy. My first motorcycle jacket was horse hide. Wish I still had it, but it was the traditional Harley style that I'm not into these days.
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(https://thumb.ibb.co/e8Z33V/178824-B8-91-E5-40-E9-A958-7-F42-A565-EC4-C.png) (https://ibb.co/e8Z33V)
For a great movie on some cold rainy day with nothing to do, find the old Dirty Harry movie from the early 70's, Magnum Force. The motorcycle cops in that movie are wearing the exact same jacket as the one I have and posted. They are definitely old school and possibly out dated but I still think they are totally functional and cool! Mine is very warm with modern underlining clothing. Down side, after 38 years still stiff and heavy, horse hide.
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Schott jackets are about 1 degree removed from armor!
Schott and Langlitz jackets are the oldest of Old School. Their School is so old they don't even teach History there because it hadn't happened yet.
I have a Schott vest (that apparently shrank quite a bit since 1979) and it is absolutely top-quality. I can just imagine what their jackets must be like ....
And I love the old Langlitz catalog, although I've never been able to bring myself to drop Langlitz-sized dollars on one ....
Lannis
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I've tended to wear the Aerostich in winter and leathers when it's warmer and not raining. I love the Langlitz Goatskins the best but never thought of wearing them with extra layers over the top of them. I'm into the sport bikes, so hang out in the wind. I find the textile suits resist the wind where the leathers slide right through it. The textiles also breathe more than the leathers, so don't have the wind protection unless a wind breaker layer is worn under or over them. The leathers, on the other hand, get cold and transfer the cold into the jacket. Either way, insulating layers need to be worn under them
I wear a neck warmer (a fleece tube like a turtleneck) purchased at a ski shop plus a neck brace I made originally to close up the space under my ears. When I rode the R100RS all the time, the roaring wind noise was awful. To bring it down to manageable levels I made a split, foam doughnut covered in fleece held closed with velcro. It held down the noise so well I stopped wearing ear plugs. Then I found out it kept me warmer in the winter and cooler in the summer. It also probably saved my neck after diving onto a boulder head first, after going down a 20 ft embankment, after hitting an elk at 65 mph.
I'll have to try out some of the ideas you guys have given me.