Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: pete roper on November 11, 2018, 05:32:45 PM
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:evil:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4848/45109834564_70bc234e8c_z.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4827/30894697887_91df99a605_z.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4856/45109834244_7849167a85_z.jpg)
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Woopsie..
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(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0YLDid0sWu8/TUB363fYC9I/AAAAAAAAKX0/vLtc_Hxnffc/w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu/Billy+Crystal+-+I+Hate+When+That+Happens.jpg)
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Ouch...
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I don't think that will buff out........
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:evil:
Is there a narrative that accompanies this? :)
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Is there a narrative that accompanies this? :)
Yeah, "BANG!!!!"
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that's what happens when you don't use the exact same type of oil that I like.
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stelario, Pete?
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From an owner after setting his valves, no skewer needed.
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Some fellers are just hard on equipment , (suspenders snapping )
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:shocked: Ouch is right!
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Well, thats one way to make a Guzzi 'thumper'
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Damb, What be the cause of dat?
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Pete, we must know!
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Scared? nah .... not me! I love riding a bike that can implode like this..... gives me something to talk about. :laugh:
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A broken valve stem?
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A missed shift during an Italian tuneup.
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That's sub-optimal...
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Yes, it dumped it's cam timing due to being assembled, I think at the factory, with one of the holes in the finger plate over the cam locating pin.the pin worked it's way out.
In normal service most of the force needed to spin the cam is imparted by friction between the face of the sprocket and the cam but given time and enough heat cycles and once the pin isn't doing its job the sprocket will start to creep.
Before it went 'Bang' he'd checked the valves and the exhausts were tight. That should of been the red flag but he missed it. Thenon his last trip it must suddenly of slipped badly and biffed the exhaust valves hard enough to bend both and snap the head off one.
Anyone got a spare motor hangin around?
Pete
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Actually, amazingly, the bore on that cylinder is fine! Not a mark on it. The head is scrap obviously but I've found a spare second handy off one of my wrecks and will find the closest weight piston I can out of the multiple barrel sets I have and use that in his bore. New rings, couple of valves and a head service, handful of gaskets and stuff and he'll be mobile again. Bottom end feels fine.
I think I might just check the clinger plate location on the other side as well eh? :laugh:
Pete
PS. When the silly pricks redesigned the barrel for the larger reservoir for the chain tensioner they made it so big you can't lift the barrel! Then the Loctite the studs in with 'F@#& off I'm never coming out!' Green Loctite! :rolleyes:. Luckily we have an even more 'F@#& off' stud extractor with teeth like a Great White shark! That and a metre long breaker bar made short work of the factory's attempt to make me drop the engine! :evil:
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How is the conrod on that side ?
Dusty
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Rod is fine! Bearings also feel fine. I've checked it as best I can without removing it and it looks good. (shrug?) Go figure.
Pete
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(https://thumb.ibb.co/mYAEFA/scotchguard.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mYAEFA)
There is a current Topic on "Leathers or Textiles".
Maybe the owner/rider of that bike may want to comment on the benefits of "Scotch Guarding" and how it can preserve your Leather or Textile pants during emergencies?
:evil: :evil:
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(https://thumb.ibb.co/mYAEFA/scotchguard.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mYAEFA)
There is a current Topic on "Leathers or Textiles".
Maybe the owner/rider of that bike may want to comment on the benefits of "Scotch Guarding" and how it can preserve your Leather or Textile pants during emergencies?
:evil: :evil:
No need, it wasn't a crisis. He stopped and then rode it onto the hard shoulder. The damage would of occurred in the first hundred or so revolutions. After that it was just a 600 single.
Pete
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re checking rod for straight. I was sus on larios that both had popped. Bolted 2 gudgeon pins together while join in bush spinning to keep true. Tells the story, maybe not nth but one rod flagged up, ended up using the other crank and rods. Use case mouth to measure clearance, up down and twist. this one twisted !
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Pete, check the big end rod bearing. Had a similar thing happen and the bearing had a nice dent. If not for the dent, it looked fine.
Tom
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Guys, believe it or not I actually know most, if not all, of the shortcuts you can do to avoid a total strip down.
I'm acutely aware of the fact that a the sort of top end damage caused by in incident like this can cause problems lower down, usually with big end bearing damage rather than rod and believe me 8V rods are, err? 'Robust'.
Can I get him out of this mess cheaply? I really don't know. But using my skills and experience I'll try or go down fighting. I've already told him I can give no guarantees but the alternative is essentially a new motor......
His choice, not mine. I'll happily shovel it into the back of a Ute if he wants. My feeling though is that that would be a waste.
Pete
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Guys, believe it or not I actually use best testosterone boosters (https://www.wtkr.com/brand-spotlight/best-testosterone-boosters) and know most, if not all, of the shortcuts you can do to avoid a total strip down.
I'm acutely aware of the fact that a the sort of top end damage caused by in incident like this can cause problems lower down, usually with big end bearing damage rather than rod and believe me 8V rods are, err? 'Robust'.
Can I get him out of this mess cheaply? I really don't know. But using my skills and experience I'll try or go down fighting. I've already told him I can give no guarantees but the alternative is essentially a new motor......
His choice, not mine. I'll happily shovel it into the back of a Ute if he wants. My feeling though is that that would be a waste.
Pete
That's most certainly a waste. Did you try talking him out of it?
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Initially I gave him a worst case scenario. Then I gave him a scenario using second hand parts from outside sources, (This was before I'd pulled the cylinder, a task in itself!) then I realised I could get him out of it cheaper, but not without risk.
This was all communicated in full, along with all the 'All care, no responsibility' caveats that come with taking the cheap path.
I also said that if he wanted I'd give him $2k for the wreck and explained I had lots of slow moving CARC stuff, (Like everything apart from engines!) so I was hardly likely to make a sudden killing but I ADVISED him that I thought the odds of me getting it running by the cheapest route were very good.
I then threw it back in his lap.
Before I'd had the chance to tell him that his barrel was good and I'd got a serviceable head he called me back to say go ahead with the expensive, (And far more profitable to me!) option. I was able at that point to say I had what I thought was a better, cheaper, option.
Perhaps I did that because I'm a real snake with a hidden agenda.
.................
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Perhaps I did that because I'm a real snake with a hidden agenda.
.................
Don't forget 'venal' and 'Machiavellian'. :evil:
:whip2:
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Sorry, I’m five beers in so my vocabulary is somewhat restricted :boozing:
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Was this a flattie ? Maybe the flinger plate was miss aligned when Rollerized. Perhaps all who have had their 8v flatties rollerized should take a quick peak at the cam sprockets for good measure. I know I will be. Easy enough on a griso anyway. That is one robust motor to take that and have such minimal damage, or just shit luck. Good luck with the remodel Pete, as always thanks for sharing. :thumb:
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Pretty sure it was a factory roller bike. All the witness marks appeared to be intact.
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Never understood why the hole is in the flinger plate in the first place.
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Years ago I saw a piston hanging over a workbench in a shop. It had a valve jammed into it the same way.
I asked the mechanic for the story and he said a Harley rider came in complaining that his engine was missing on one cylinder.
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That engine is now a piston port single....
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A guy came in with a Stinson (Franklin opposed 6) one day and said it was a little down on power. Two of them would never run again.. :grin:
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Never understood why the hole is in the flinger plate in the first place.
You and me both??? Unless it's something to do with its manufacture there is no reason for the holes at all.
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Years ago I saw a piston hanging over a workbench in a shop. It had a valve jammed into it the same way.
I asked the mechanic for the story and he said a Harley rider came in complaining that his engine was missing on one cylinder.
How could the rider tell? :evil:
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How could the rider tell? :evil:
99% of Harleys are still on the road.
the other 1% made it home :evil: :wink:
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Good one John!
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As you can see the valve punched right through the deck of the piston! :grin:
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1961/44036616900_a18afb5292_z.jpg)
The damage was directly on top of the rod though so the force wasn't a bending one. As I said I checked the rod by sticking a straight edge across the top of the bore and then slipping feeler gauges between it and either side of the piston. There was no discrepancy, everything moves nicely. Visually it all looks fine.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4805/31982154808_4d52bb5d63_z.jpg)
Second hand piston and new rings and gasket and it's all looking pretty dandy!
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4889/44036617480_afef1fa386_z.jpg)
Now I've just got to wait for the head to come back from the head shop and I can get serious about seeing if it's going to make any horrid bottom end noises!
Pete
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Attaboy, Pete.. :thumb:
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Now I've just got to wait for the head to come back from the head shop and I can get serious about seeing if it's going to make any horrid bottom end noises!
Pete
Are you talking about the engine or the rider next time he or she takes the bike out?
:evil: :evil:
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Pete, I really appreciate this arms length tutorial....... YOU ROCK!
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Are you talking about the engine or the rider next time he or she takes the bike out?
:evil: :evil:
Has probably evacuated the colon after hearing the bang..!
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If you can't afford to fix them, you can't afford to own them... Welcome him to the fold.
I've got a (non-Guzzi) piston top half with a valve head still parked in it, hanging on the wall in my shop. Dad said "It was running ok but but smoked a little and had a bad miss". It's right beside a pinion from my v7 sport with 5 roller bearings welded to the shaft, courtesy of the p.o.
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It shouldn’t of needed fixing, that’s the thing. By the numbers it’s a factory roller and it doesn’t look like it’s been apart but I pulled the LH breather plate and Lo and behold the LH flinger plate was set up with an ‘ole over the pin too! Giuseppe was obviously on a roll when he built this one.
I’ll post a pic when I’m not using my phone.
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Nice to see top quality training and induction processes are high on the agenda at Mandello! (Or wherever the engines are built? Modena maybe?)
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1914/30933023977_e4bf41613b_z.jpg)
More annoying is that the inlet valves are bent too :sad: More expense. Grrrrr.
Pete
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Nice to see top quality training and induction processes are high on the agenda at Mandello! (Or wherever the engines are built? Modena maybe?)
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1914/30933023977_e4bf41613b_z.jpg)
More annoying is that the inlet valves are bent too :sad: More expense. Grrrrr.
Pete
Is the pin completely missing? Not fallen into the sump, but never there?
ALMOST reminds me of the Harley we bought that was MISSING any intake manifold bolts (or any signs they had ever been there).
It ran a little hot during break-in before we noticed.
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Nah, you can see the pin through the hole in the flinger plate. It hasn't started to move on this side. Only a matter of time though.
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Nah, you can see the pin through the hole in the flinger plate. It hasn't started to move on this side. Only a matter of time though.
Where's the pin at 1 o'clock?
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In the 9 o'clock hole, I use the small holes to cover pin. You can then still see it and use to set cam up.
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In the 9 o'clock hole, I use the small holes to cover pin. You can then still see it and use to set cam up.
:thumb: thx
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So in this case the pin migrated out of the camshaft and into the sprocket, through the improperly aligned hole in the finger plate, thus allowing uncoupling of the timing.
Is it possible for the pin migrate in the other direction, towards the cam lobes ? Surely not ! But I can't remember exactly how it was designed to prevent that ...
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So in this case the pin migrated out of the camshaft and into the sprocket, through the improperly aligned hole in the finger plate, thus allowing uncoupling of the timing.
Is it possible for the pin migrate in the other direction, towards the cam lobes ? Surely not ! But I can't remember exactly how it was designed to prevent that ...
It is a blind hole if I recall, so it can't got deeper.
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Can't go in, cam has a blind hole pin sits in. Oil slinger has the other holes. The fastening bolt is extra long w/blue loctite on it. W/O the pin it's just a matter of time.
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(https://thumb.ibb.co/kg5xs0/14066724471-4778f113c2-z.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kg5xs0)
In this picture I thought I could see the other end of the pin in the camshaft....
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(https://thumb.ibb.co/dSY3zf/20181114-140048.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dSY3zf)
It is oddly drilled most of the way through. If you look closely you can see the step on the back side.
Man that thing got rusty sitting in a trash box in the garage for a couple years.
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(https://thumb.ibb.co/dSY3zf/20181114-140048.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dSY3zf)
It is oddly drilled most of the way through. If you look closely you can see the step on the back side.
Man that thing got rusty sitting in a trash box in the garage for a couple years.
Thanks for the picture -- one less scenario to worry about !
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Well, this morning I finally got everything back together, (Jeez, Norges are boring with all their crappy little brackets and pins :rolleyes:) filled it with oil found out the shitty LiFe battery had gone to sleep so I rang Mark to ensure I didn't do something that would cause it to explode! He set me right and then with some trepidation I pressed the go button.
Arse! It wasn't running on the RH side! How'd that happen when I was so careful with the timing?? Ah! Yes, (Hmmph!) it helps if you remember to plug the injector in! :embarrassed: Try again and brumph! and it immediately settles down into a regular 1200rpm idle!
No nasty bottom end noises, yet! Verily I am a mechanical god! NOT! :grin:
Nah, sounds good. If it holds together it could of been so much worse.......
Pete
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Win!
(http://i84.servimg.com/u/f84/18/91/78/64/image10.png)
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Hurray! Great info.
Why are there holes in the flinger plate at all?
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I can only assume that they are something to do with the manufacturing process when they are stamped out.
Pete
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Hurray! Great info.
Why are there holes in the flinger plate at all?
The holes should be called "Roulette Holes", designed for people that want to gamble with the life of their engine....... :evil:
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I can only assume that they are something to do with the manufacturing process when they are stamped out.
Pete
If I had a good picture, I could probably give an educated guess on the stamping process. I apprenticed as a stamping diemaker back in another lifetime. :smiley:
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I can only assume that they are something to do with the manufacturing process when they are stamped out.
Pete
I'm convinced it is in case the assembler screws up at the factory, so they can fix it quickly w/o disassembly. The fact that Pete has seen it and this bike trashed confirms the idea.
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I can only assume that they are something to do with the manufacturing process when they are stamped out.
Pete
Would seem easy to make the holes smaller than the lock pins. (too many engineers?)
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I started rollerising a 2010 today. I'll post up pics of the flinger plate a bit later. Interestingly the early bikes only have two large holes. Later ones,(Like the Norge.) have four. Two extra tiny ones.
Pete
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I started rollerising a 2010 today. I'll post up pics of the flinger plate a bit later. Interestingly the early bikes only have two large holes. Later ones,(Like the Norge.) have four. Two extra tiny ones.
Pete
Same number as the VPC
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Chuck? Some pics.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4822/45053051625_954a06e259_z.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4856/31026176917_0d0be213a7_z.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4854/45053051535_a406fb8b61_z.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4809/45053051515_c50c5f6123_z.jpg)
Pete
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Chuck? Some pics.
Ok. I can see no reason for those holes. <shrug> That part could be made in one operation.
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I wonder if it is to allow the cam to be aligned and the pin to be inserted AFTER assembly. Then rotate the plate and tighten it. Maybe an attempt to speed up assembly.
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I wonder if it is to allow the cam to be aligned and the pin to be inserted AFTER assembly. Then rotate the plate and tighten it. Maybe an attempt to speed up assembly.
:thumb: To coincidental for the holes to align with he cam sprocket pin.
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:thumb: To coincidental for the holes to align with he cam sprocket pin.
But from an assembly point of view there would be nothing to be gained by doing that. All it would do is increase the risk of dropping the pin into the bowels of the engine!
Pete
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That pin must fit into the cam shaft tightly and self retain, or else we would be hearing of this happening more often, no ? I'll bet not that much attention is given to the position of the holes in the plate during assembly, and then there is also the possibility the plate can rotate on the bolt over time. Do you think this case is a rarity ?
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It doesn't fit real tight, you are supposed to cover it up so this don't happen. The bolt holding the sprocket and slinger is long and has Loctite on it and is torqued up. I use the small hole to cover it, so I know it's location. If it's an early model I mark w/grease pencil.
You have to move the plate and torque the bolt before Loctite dries. In a factory setting they are going fast for production RE's.
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I've heard of very few cases of this occurring.
The pin is an interference fit in the cam, in fact on this one I replaced the pin as the one that had moved was sloppy in its hole in the cam. Luckily I have a bajillion pins in dead flat tappet cams so I just removed one and pressed it in. Remember though that the majority of the drive is delivered by friction from the clamping force between sprocket and cam imparted by the bolt. The pin is mainly for timing the cam and as a fail-safe. As long as the plate covers the pin it shouldn't be able to work it's way out.
Anyway, the Norge went home yesterday. The owner texted me from Newcastle, about five hours away, and said the bike had never run better and felt both smoother and more powerful which would lead me to believe the cam timing on that side had never been right.
Pete