Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: EldoMike on November 19, 2018, 09:11:51 PM
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I may be late in this but here it is anyway..
https://www.rideapart.com/articles/276810/moto-guzzi-v85-new-model/
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Thanks for the link! I'd read a hint somewhere before but this has some more info.
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Who was that idiot that said there should be a V8 in between the V7 and V9, back a year or two..?
With stand off styling reminiscent of the Le Mans as a tip of the hat and calling it the V8, I recall he reckoned it would be giving due credit to the 80's relic, whilst dragging the whole she bang into this millennium.
Anyway.
That suggestion was met with sneers of derision at the time.
Now I know he was an Aussie, but probably the wrong one.. :wink:
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A sport touring bike would make a lot of sense - something between a Griso and Norge. Lighter than either but better suspension than the V7/9 lineup. Maybe it's time to roll out a next-gen LeMans?
(https://thumb.ibb.co/kBgYS0/lemans-mk1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kBgYS0)
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Be still my freak'n heart. I'm hoping it is a sport touring styled bike and not a throwback of any kind. I'm hoping it "tics" all the boxes for us (me and the wife).
1. 2up comfort -
2 Little to no fairing -
3. Side bags and trunk capable -
Shut up and take my money!!
something between a Griso and Norge. .......with better suspension.
I'd love to see suspension with hi/low compression adjustment and not only preload and rebound.
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+1
Hopefully it'll have enough juice to run a few extras with out any strain.
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Give it to me as a bog standard blank canvas of a bike, please. Classic styled standard.
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If the V85 model makes substantially more power, I think Piaggio will use it to develop a line of bikes. Ducati pursued the same stratgy successfully starting in the late 80s when they focused on developing the relatively weak <50HP Pantah 650 engine, their version of the small block, and abandoned their more expensive larger block engine. By the early 90s they had a pretty good lineup with a mid-70s RWHP engine, including the 'blank canvas' Monster which made good money.
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I can't wait to see what this thing's going to look like. :popcorn:
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I'm looking forward to seeing it too. Im not looking forward to reading all the complaining that will pop here by curmudgeons who will lash out one way or another.
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My only worry now (which I hope is totally off base), is if the 850 engine will have qualms about dragging two average sized adults around the hills of WV. We're used to larger engines for 2up.
*after a little research, it looks like an 850 should work fine for us. Plus only being an 850, it should be great for wheelies when I ride solo.. (I kid)
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A sports tourer sounds fine to me -
With a decent sized tank - buck the recent trend with 20-25 litres,
Mudguards to keep the water off
A robust rear rack, as with the V7s
Half way decent suspension
A decent headlight - I prefer a single round, but if they have decent reflectors, I'm not too fussed
Possibly a minimal fly screen (the only fairing I have experienced that works well is that on the 1100 Sport/V11 Lemans & that's likely overkill).
I like to tour with rear sets & low bars, but realise many others aren't shaped that way, so the ability to cater for both set ups would be preferred.
Not too much to expect?
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A strees bike with less weight and less power than the Griso would be very interesting!
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My fears are you’ll never see another 1100/1200 and the 850 will replace the V7 & V9. Just like HD Guzzi could become a two motor company with different frames and set-ups.
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My only worry now (which I hope is totally off base), is if the 850 engine will have qualms about dragging two average sized adults around the hills of WV. We're used to larger engines for 2up.
*after a little research, it looks like an 850 should work fine for us. Plus only being an 850, it should be great for wheelies when I ride solo.. (I kid)
I've done 2-up on everything from 350's to 1200's. Depends on your expectations. Loaded up with pillion and gear for an overnight or two is a lot different than a nice couple hour ride in the country which again, is different than going around the corner for ice cream. I suspect this 850 will need to be revved a bit more than a big block but should do fine for the riding you describe. Just need to be smooth on your downshifts so you don't bonk helmets, or bash your wife's nose... :shocked:
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(https://thumb.ibb.co/dXo7NA/56-AD7-F9-A-0-D80-4821-B03-B-269-DBA8121-A2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dXo7NA)
Like this?
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Like this?
Nicely done and yes, like that! How did you get the shaft and shock on the left side? Also dig the Griso muffler.
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(https://thumb.ibb.co/dXo7NA/56-AD7-F9-A-0-D80-4821-B03-B-269-DBA8121-A2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dXo7NA)
Like this?
Yup I like that too, a Roadster we can Farkle up. A step up from the V7
Maybe the remaining dealers can have a good year, just in time lol
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My fears are you’ll never see another 1100/1200 and the 850 will replace the V7 & V9. Just like HD Guzzi could become a two motor company with different frames and set-ups.
Harley only has one motor in the upcoming electric bike, but has several engines. If you are not including displacement they have 3 blocks. If you include displacement they have 500, 700, and 1200cc then they have 107, 114, and 117 inch displacement. In addition the softail engines have a second counterbalancer.
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Harley only has one motor in the upcoming electric bike, but has several engines. If you are not including displacement they have 3 blocks. If you include displacement they have 500, 700, and 1200cc then they have 107, 114, and 117 inch displacement. In addition the softail engines have a second counterbalancer.
Pedantic definitions aside, Harley has the following powerplants:
* Revolution - 60 degree, water-cooled, OHC - in 500cc and 750cc displacements (the 750 in two different versions/tunes)
* Evolution - 45 degree, unitized, air-cooled 2V pushrod - 883cc and 1200cc displacements
* M8 - 45 degree, air-cooled, 4V pushrod - in 107", 114" and 117" displacements, in either single-counterbalancer/rubbermounted and/or dual counterbalancer/solidmounted versions, some with water-cooled heads too.
So really yeah, I agree, I'd call it 3 engines - available in multiple displacements.
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So I'm a little confused. So the Griso (and other CARC bikes) die off due to Euro emissions. Then MG's "new" platform is a 850cc engine, air cooled, 2 valve, seems like a downsized 1100 Griso engine (yes I get the large block, small block thing), but nothing really "clean running" about this "new" 850 engine design.
So how does the 850 become a platform for the future and the 1200 Griso is dead? Is it just capacity? Easy to have the proper Euro emissions with 850cc vs. 1150cc?
I think that red mock up bike looks great, but I was thinking "why would I sell my Griso and buy that?" ... can't think of any reason. Maybe it would be ~30-40lbs lighter?
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The V85 is a small block, not in any way related to the big block V11/Griso engine. The small block is a product of the 70s, the big block a product of the 60s. The small block was designed as a cheaper to produce engine.
My thought is that if (which is a fairly big if) the V85 does make reasonable power and the market buys it in multiple platforms, Piaggio might focus on that engine alone. The cruiser engine and the bike itself has not sold in great volume.
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well I read on the internet of things (shocking!), that 2019 model of V7 will be the last year of the bike...
No idea if the rumor is true or not...but if it indeed is true, they have to do something and making a V85 road based bike makes sense...
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Just need to be smooth on your downshifts so you don't bonk helmets, or bash your wife's nose... :shocked:
That would still be preferable to
"Bashing her helmet"
Or
"Bonking her nose...!"
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So I'm a little confused. So the Griso (and other CARC bikes) die off due to Euro emissions. Then MG's "new" platform is a 850cc engine, air cooled, 2 valve, seems like a downsized 1100 Griso engine (yes I get the large block, small block thing), but nothing really "clean running" about this "new" 850 engine design.
So how does the 850 become a platform for the future and the 1200 Griso is dead? Is it just capacity? Easy to have the proper Euro emissions with 850cc vs. 1150cc?
I think that red mock up bike looks great, but I was thinking "why would I sell my Griso and buy that?" ... can't think of any reason. Maybe it would be ~30-40lbs lighter?
I'm also confused by the strategy. I'm assuming the market for 'vintage' bikes is far more profitable per dollar of investment than the market for 'modern' bikes. Perhaps they had to make a choice to go one way or the other but could not sustain both. I would have loved to see a new bike utilizing the big block, CARC and modern electronics.
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(https://thumb.ibb.co/dXo7NA/56-AD7-F9-A-0-D80-4821-B03-B-269-DBA8121-A2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dXo7NA)
Like this?
THAT looks amazing.
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Maybe I did not explain my confusion very well.
If a 1150cc air cooled 4 valve engine can't meet Euro emissions, then how can a 850cc air cooled 2 valve engine meet Euro emissions?
Is it just a smaller engine pollutes less? Maybe the 850 has better fuel management (leaner and supposedly still runs ok)?
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I think it has to do with with down selecting to as few engine designs as possible for economic production, including amortization of emissions certification costs. Piaggio is probably just trying to minimize the number of products they have to build and certify worldwide and the small block looks like the best down selection for Guzzi based on current annual sales of that engine and number of years they think they can build and sell them.
Same basic reason the LeMans II got the small valve engine for the US market way back when, resulting in the CX100 for which the 'explanation' was that Americans preferred a larger engine displacement. Certification was easier then, but all the other big blocks they were selling in the US at that time had the 949 cc small valve engine and the rest of the world didn't have meaningful emissions regulations - so for 200 US sales over two to three years it wasn't in the budget to separately certify the round barrel 850 Le Mans II engine. When they subsequently came out with the square barrel engine they must've reevaluated based on the prediction of selling more Le Mans IIIs in the US.
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(https://thumb.ibb.co/dXo7NA/56-AD7-F9-A-0-D80-4821-B03-B-269-DBA8121-A2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dXo7NA)
Like this?
That your own photoshopping?
That looks NICE! :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
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I might need a bit of the TT's rear on it though. More of a structure for luggage and modified seat. I need to find a nice half-faring to graft on there now.
(https://image.ibb.co/dgQLhA/Image-Flat-3.jpg)
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(https://image.ibb.co/dd2i2A/Image-Flat-7.jpg)
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It looks nice but I still don’t believe it’ll have 80hp. I think it will be about 65hp at the wheel, at most. Like I said in the TT thread, I can’t think of one air-cooled, screw and lock nut bike that has ever made 100hp per liter. It will end up with 5-8hp less than a SV650 and weigh30-40lbs more. That seems like a recipe for a fun bike but I’m with Roper in the power claim.
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If it can carry two adults and some bags without balking, the numbers won't matter to me. If we test ride it and it can't get out of its own way, then we have an issue.
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I am sure I would like it (a street-bike version), but I might want more power. The 1200 was a great motor, and I am sure I would like the 1400 as well, but 850cc seems a bit small to me.
Still, my Ducati ST2 had only a 944cc motor with about 83 hp, and it had plenty of power, even for two-up...
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The new KTM 790Duke (799cc water-cooled parallel twin) is listed at 105 hp and 65 ft-lbs torque. The air-cooled V85 motor will not match those power figures, but Guzzi's claim of 80hp does not seem unreasonable using new technology, such as titanium intake valves. Ducati has produced 80+ hp in the past from air-cooled engines of similar displacement. Let's wait and see what the actual real-world test data say before dismissing Guzzi's claims.
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I am sure I would like it (a street-bike version), but I might want more power. The 1200 was a great motor, and I am sure I would like the 1400 as well, but 850cc seems a bit small to me.
Still, my Ducati ST2 had only a 944cc motor with about 83 hp, and it had plenty of power, even for two-up...
An ST-2 makes about 83 HP at the rear wheel, and is no feather weight. I agree that's fine for two up. 65 RWHP seems more achievable for the Guzzi and I'd guess with some certainty that the 80HP claim is at the crankshaft, but time will tell. The Ducati engine is a 944 cc overhead cam desmo with water cooled heads.
My SV650 (DOHC 4V per cylinder) makes 68 RWHP and will haul 275 lbs of people without trouble - but is not ideally suited to it, feeling a bit tightly wound at 75 mph two up. It's a roughly 130 mph motorcycle. My R100GS makes far less power (40s at the rear wheel) and can't go nearly that fast but is better doing the same two-up job... larger displacement and lower RPM play a role, not just power. It's just my POV but I think if Piaggio has actually done the best job that's possible to develop the 850 cc small block it'll do the two up touring job comfortably... but it'll need to be a really good detail reengineering job relative to the engine they've been selling.
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An ST-2 makes about 83 HP at the rear wheel, and is no feather weight. I agree that's fine for two up. 65 RWHP seems more achievable for the Guzzi and I'd guess with some certainty that the 80HP claim is at the crankshaft, but time will tell. The Ducati engine is a 944 cc overhead cam desmo with water cooled heads.
My SV650 (DOHC 4V per cylinder) makes 68 RWHP and will haul 275 lbs of people without trouble - but is not ideally suited to it, feeling a bit tightly wound at 75 mph two up. It's a roughly 130 mph motorcycle. My R100GS makes far less power (40s at the rear wheel) and can't go nearly that fast but is better doing the same two-up job... larger displacement and lower RPM play a role, not just power. It's just my POV but I think if Piaggio has actually done the best job that's possible to develop the 850 cc small block it'll do the two up touring job comfortably... but it'll need to be a really good detail reengineering job relative to the engine they've been selling.
Agreed and good points. For me, as a smaller, short-arse (i think it was Huzo?) rider it's the weight of the machine that will have me sold on it. It's not that I can't handle the bigger bikes - it's just that the weight has so much of an effect on how it handles and stops. Thus the fun factor goes down for me. 450ish is my limit...
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It looks nice but I still don’t believe it’ll have 80hp. I think it will be about 65hp at the wheel, at most.
You are correct, it will not have 80hp "at the wheel". They're advertising that "at the crank".
80bhp at the crank, should be about 68-70 rwhp on a shaft-drive Guzzi.
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The new KTM 790Duke (799cc water-cooled parallel twin) is listed at 105 hp and 65 ft-lbs torque. The air-cooled V85 motor will not match those power figures, but Guzzi's claim of 80hp does not seem unreasonable using new technology, such as titanium intake valves. Ducati has produced 80+ hp in the past from air-cooled engines of similar displacement. Let's wait and see what the actual real-world test data say before dismissing Guzzi's claims.
The Duke is shim under bucket and liquid cooled. Ducati never made an air-cooled bike that put out 100 hp per liter and they have desmodromic valves. Ducati claimed the 4 valve 1100 EVO put out 95hp but it only made 80-ish hp at the rear wheel. 1100/95hp(claimed)= is 1hp per 13.75cc's. Guzzi is claiming 80hp from 850. That's 850/80=1hp per 10.625cc's. That's sheer fantasy based on the respective engine architecture and you know....physics. There is no new "technology" listed in the spec sheet that will bend the law of physics or mathematics.
If you assume Guzzi can get the exact same specific power per displacement as the Ducati at the rear wheel(which they can't), the V85 would make 62hp at the wheel. I think the bike will dyno closer to 55hp than 65hp. That's plenty for a fun runabout but anyone who thinks the bike is going to be "fast" is delusional. Cue everyone saying, "ride a slow bike fast...blah, blah, blah."
None of this will really matter to most of us if the bike is reliable and handles well but the hp claim annoys me. It would please me to no end if I was wrong and the V85 makes 70hp at the wheel. A naked V85 with cast wheels should weigh 20-25lbs less than the TT and if it DOES lay down 70hp at the wheel it'll be in the same ballpark weight and power wise as a SV650...which is one of the most fun middleweight twins ever made.
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(https://image.ibb.co/dd2i2A/Image-Flat-7.jpg)
Poilshed wheels, silver forks and some subtle green and white accents please ...
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Good post, John. I hear ya.
But it won't matter to me, at least. 55, 60, 62hp, whatever. It'll be quick enough to have fun.
I've really come to like the ease of maintenance of the Guzzi product. It's a huge factor for me.
Time will tell.
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(https://image.ibb.co/dd2i2A/Image-Flat-7.jpg)
Still looks like a volcanic eruption of boiling arse!
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Still looks like a volcanic eruption of boiling arse!
Cheese and crackers! :shocked: What the heck should it look like then? That isn't the "retro" look you despise so much. Is it supposed to have "Bill the Cat" headlights like a BMW, or like any one of the Japanese bikes with it's pointy bug-torso arse sticking up toward the sky? Look like a Triumph or KTM? Maybe an Aprilia? :undecided:
One thing is for sure - I definitely would not ever want to be in the design dept. of any motorcycle company, because no matter what your design looks like, there's always going to be someone who thinks it looks like a "volcanic eruption of boiling arse". :sad:
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thanks for putting that out there. I like the first 80% of that design but would like the last 20% to have a flatter, more comfortable looking seat. I can't think of a woman that would want to ride on the back of that design for more than a few minutes. Just my opinion, thanks for letting me express it.
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That's mockup is actually some designer's recent take on what it "could" look like with the rear seat and subframe area from the V85 TT with a mini fairing from a Breva 1200 Sport.
Sometimes the seats are more form over function it seems. The aftermarket seat customizers will be around for a long time!!!
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I'm agreeing with Charlie on this. What should it look like? What should it be?
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Cheese and crackers! :shocked: What the heck should it look like then? That isn't the "retro" look you despise so much. Is it supposed to have "Bill the Cat" headlights like a BMW, or like any one of the Japanese bikes with it's pointy bug-torso arse sticking up toward the sky? Look like a Triumph or KTM? Maybe an Aprilia? :undecided:
One thing is for sure - I definitely would not ever want to be in the design dept. of any motorcycle company, because no matter what your design looks like, there's always going to be someone who thinks it looks like a "volcanic eruption of boiling arse". :sad:
I'd just want it to look as if it had a modicum of thought put into it! You say it doesn't have the 'Retro' look I despise? I disagree, it doesn't seem to ape anything classy though. If you want to know what it reminds me of most it's a mid eighties commuter middleweight! Something like a GS 400 Suzuki. Now they were a sound, if unexciting, motorbike but charismatic they definitely weren't!
Sorry, but I really think that Piaggio have completely missed what GUZZI was about and that is obvious in what they are pinning their hopes on and the suggestions of others for what they should build. They spend a lot of time banging on in their press releases about 'Heritage' and past glories and then build machines that are, quite frankly, an embarrassment. I can think of no other manufacturer of anything more than truly pedestrian 'Poverty Pack' commuters who would even think of producing a 2VPC OHV engine for their flagship model in 2019! It's not just pathetic, it's insane!
Pete
PS. I do wholeheartedly agree. I wouldn't want to be the 'Stylist' for anything. Taste is far too subjective!
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My 79 lemans makes 63 rwhp with a b10 cam and 40mm carbs, I would think that 40 years later I could expect at least 70 at the wheel
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Why? The laws of physics haven't changed?
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I'm confused, my 20 year old air cooled Centauro dynoed 92 at the rear wheel with it's 1000cc. I'd like to think in 20 years of continuing refinement a 2 valve could produce decent numbers.
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My 79 lemans makes 63 rwhp with a b10 cam and 40mm carbs, I would think that 40 years later I could expect at least 70 at the wheel
Why would you? The V85 lump is 10% smaller than a CX100 but fundamentally the same engine. It also meets modern emissions. I wouldn't be surprised if modern oil doesn't contribute to higher specific output than the titanium valves. 10/60 4T probably nets a couple HP improvement in either engine.
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I'm confused, my 20 year old air cooled Centauro dynoed 92 at the rear wheel with it's 1000cc. I'd like to think in 20 years of continuing refinement a 2 valve could produce decent numbers.
All due respect...but the Centauro was rated 95 at the crank. The 1200 Sport was also rated 95 at the crank and those typically showed low 80's on a dyno. I don't know why a Centauro would only lose 3-4% from the crank to the wheel when 15% is what most Guzzi's have for drivetrain loss.
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All due respect...but the Centauro was rated 95 at the crank. The 1200 Sport was also rated 95 at the crank and those typically showed low 80's on a dyno. I don't know why a Centauro would only lose 3-4% from the crank to the wheel when 15% is what most Guzzi's have for drivetrain loss.
Somewhere I've got the dyno runs from when they mapped the Centauro to the PC3 from Guzzi tech, but I've heard of others in the 95 range. Now they could have made it all up, but that wouldn't explain the others with similar or better numbers.
And to quote a post by Will Creedon
"Standard horsepower on a V10 Centauro is typically in the range of 83 to 88 at the rear wheel, give or take. The easiest way to increase that is by removing the airbox, the maps actually don't have much to do with it, other that supporting whatever mods have been done to the bike. A replacement exhaust crossover is the other thing people do, obviously, and this typically detracts slightly from peak power and helps in the midrange. The typical result is about 90-95 rear wheel horsepower, roughly 5-10 over stock.. Not much to do with the maps, however, regardless of source. "
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Had to dredge back a fair way in the memory but I found it!
Google up images on a Honda CB250 'Super Hawk' from 1981. It looks pretty much identical. They made a 400cc version too. It was an ugly, underperforming turd as well!
Pete
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Disagree. While the Stelviomay well of hatched in a nest at the top of the ugly tree and then been pushed out and hit every branch on the way down to ground level it is still, unmistakably, what it is.
The photoshop 'Street' 850 looks like anything and nothing at the same time! A veritable tsunami of arse!
Pete
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Peter? If you're going to make a statement at least have the courage to stand by it!
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Still looks like a volcanic eruption of boiling arse!
Nup..
Wrong this time.
Looks like a solid dependable jigger that'll help you keep your licence and you won't need to shit your pants each time you go to the letterbox !
If it feels as good as my Norge but with a bit less torque, I'd have one next to the new V 85 and dump my Mk 2 onto some misty eyed old fart that wants to hang onto something with artificially inflated value to fund the purchase.
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Now that sounds more sensible!
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Peter? If you're going to make a statement at least have the courage to stand by it!
Ok then Pete.
Upon second thoughts, I felt that I was being "trollish" by bagging a bike that a lot of riders genuinely like, so deleted the post.
I'm just wondering as to why you'd launch a burst of manufactured vitriol upon something like the image, yet you fell somewhat in love with an overweight lard bucket of a thing like the Stelvio, and paid a few bob for that sidecar thing you grabbed.
Your description of the V 85 roadie, is amusing as always, but a self indulgent exercise in exaggeration.
Courageous enough..?
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Why? The laws of physics haven't changed?
True, but the practical application of the laws of physics has gained much ground.
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Maybe Guzzi could let a little teaser photo out and show what direction they're going. As I stated earlier, that first (basic) mock-up was from Lord who knows who. I could only dig back to see it may have been from the Facebook page of Moto Guzzi V85 Italy Group from Nov 2017. Or it could have been one of the design studios that grab every bike and give their take on it, or it could have been a true amateur photoshopper. For the fairing'd mock-up from later in the thread, I grabbed the back off the TT for somewhere to attach bags and add a tiny bit more seat (which would be still too thin). I'd like a larger fairing for a touring bike, but that small fairing was from the first picture I could find of a Guzzi with a fairing, sitting at the same angle.
I figure the real road-going version will look little like the mock-up. (I'm still hoping for an Ohlins shock at least) I'm hoping, when it appears, that it looks a bit more modern naked sport tourer...and less old style. Yeah...it's a little too funky at the front where there's tank meeting frame members. A nice sculpted tank combined with a half fairing might bring her up to modern standards. And while they're at it, give us a nice smooth pillion friendly seat with SOME FOAM!!
I can't wait to see the real deal!
V85 Stradale GT!
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(https://thumb.ibb.co/j0t4uq/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/j0t4uq)
Why not a V85 tribute - replica model, as close as possible to their most iconic and famous motorcycle?
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Their most famous and iconic motorcycle? Which would that be? The Bicylindrica or the V8?
And Peter I suppose I have somewhat fallen for the Stelvio. Why? Because it is a great motorbike that does most things well and very few badly. It has enough performance to be both exciting and enjoyable, is a superb two-up tourer and it has decent enough suspension to be comfortable on just about any road. It's one major Achilles heel is it's weight. I don't look at it when I'm riding it! :D
Pete
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Their most famous and iconic motorcycle? Which would that be? The Bicylindrica or the V8?
And Peter I suppose I have somewhat fallen for the Stelvio. Why? Because it is a great motorbike that does most things well and very few badly. It has enough performance to be both exciting and enjoyable, is a superb two-up tourer and it has decent enough suspension to be comfortable on just about any road. It's one major Achilles heel is it's weight. I don't look at it when I'm riding it! :D
Pete
Ok that's a perfectly valid point of view from any angle, but those same words could be applied to the mock up that we see here, depending on your level of expectation and personal taste.
One of the early posts regarding your Stelvio read something like..
"It's an ugly turd...
But it's my turd"
Hardly a glowing appraisal, yet you've grown to become fond. I wouldn't be ashamed to be seen on it, I reckon it's almost half as nice as my Norge.
High praise indeed..,
PS
I don't look at my appendage when I'm "using it" either...(but it's still ugly... :azn:)
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Their most famous and iconic motorcycle? Which would that be? The Bicylindrica or the V8?
And Peter I suppose I have somewhat fallen for the Stelvio. Why? Because it is a great motorbike that does most things well and very few badly. It has enough performance to be both exciting and enjoyable, is a superb two-up tourer and it has decent enough suspension to be comfortable on just about any road. It's one major Achilles heel is it's weight. I don't look at it when I'm riding it! :D
Pete
Most people who buy new Guzzi’s have no idea about the bicylindrica or V8. I think the current V7 is the iconic Guzzi to the vast majority of buyers. This forum is a deep, dark rabbit hole and it isn’t a representative sample(thank god) of the buying public at large. If it was, Moto Guzzi would have gone out of business in 1980. Everyone here will bitch and moan no matter what Guzzi brings to the table. I include myself in that number. Based on what has actually sold in the last 15 years...the absolute best bet for Guzzi is putting the new engine in a V7 chassis.
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Well I figured I should way in as well...… Not sure if I'm old, I don't feel it and I have owned new and older machines of many different manufacturers and IMHO Newer is not better in most cases.
I know it shouldn't be like that but it appears that's the way its working for most..... so that being said I will be holding on to my stable of girls for the foreseeable future.
PS Just to keep it real I never miss a chance to ride the next new G Wizzz must have according to GQ mag.... will the next contestant please step up LOL.
Enjoy :thumb: Ciao
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Well I figured I should way in as well...… Not sure if I'm old, I don't feel it and I have owned new and older machines of many different manufacturers and IMHO Newer is not better in most cases.
I know it shouldn't be like that but it appears that's the way its working for most..... so that being said I will be holding on to my stable of girls for the foreseeable future.
PS Just to keep it real I never miss a chance to ride the next new G Wizzz must have according to GQ mag.... will the next contestant please step up LOL.
Enjoy :thumb: Ciao
Weigh..
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(https://thumb.ibb.co/j0t4uq/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/j0t4uq)
Why not a V85 tribute - replica model, as close as possible to their most iconic and famous motorcycle?
This. Call it a V850 Le Mans and be done with it. The styling of the V7 is already half way there, and with values of the LM1 so high the timing is perfect. As long as they release it quickly it would sell very well. I would be a buyer myself.
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Remember the 1000S? That was nearly thirty years ago. People said "Why don't Guzzi build a LeMans again? I'd buy one!" So they built the 1000S and it sat around in showrooms like a stale bottle of inferior beer!
Back then the idea of a 'Sporting Tonti' was already a ludicrous anachronism. Nothing has changed. If they were to build a facsimile of the LeMans now it would still sell like rat sandwiches. Move on for Christ's sakes!
Pete
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Remember the 1000S? That was nearly thirty years ago. People said "Why don't Guzzi build a LeMans again? I'd buy one!" So they built the 1000S and it sat around in showrooms like a stale bottle of inferior beer!
Nothing has changed
Pete
I. concur
everything they made since then has done the same
except v7 series of course
v85 the first light in the tunnel for years
new lemans inevitable hope they get it right this time
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No Martin. The CARC series bikes were really competitive in their field. The problem was that the old codgers were upset by them and the general public were ignorant of them.
I know you'll never agree but that's the truth of it.
Pete
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Well I figured I should way in as well...… Not sure if I'm old, I don't feel it and I have owned new and older machines of many different manufacturers and IMHO Newer is not better in most cases.
I know it shouldn't be like that but it appears that's the way its working for most..... so that being said I will be holding on to my stable of girls for the foreseeable future.
PS Just to keep it real I never miss a chance to ride the next new G Wizzz must have according to GQ mag.... will the next contestant please step up LOL.
Enjoy :thumb: Ciao
The problem is your statements are generally false.
Well, arguably so.
More accurately your statements are subjective.
Newer vehicles are generally "better" in most subjectively measured metrics when compared with products from the same segments (see note) that came before them:
* Make more power
* Are more efficient
* Put out lower emmisions
* Have better brakes
* Have better suspensions
* Are easier to maintain/require fewer repairs
Note: of course you'll find exceptions, but most are say comparing the cheap suspension of a modern entry level bike to say a premium sporting product from yesteryear. Or like looking at a cruiser's weight when that segment's priorities are comfort, room, etc.
Anyway the point is all your original statements are only true IF you're measuring other metrics and isolating then to things that YOU prioritize.
Or stated another way, if you just added the words "to you".
. Like how I find Guzzis and Harleys better than anything else on the market TO ME.
:thumb:
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But Kev, AH Fan stated "IMHO".
Wouldn't that cover your problem with him not adding "to me"?
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I'm in two minds about this, espcailly as no one has ridden the V85TT so no idea if the motor lives up to the claims. An 80hp shaft driven bike with twin shocks? I've ridden them, they're crap and Ohlins will simply be rolling a turd in glitter, it may help but you are trying to get around physics. Modern production version of the paraleogrammo a version of the CARC system or the anti jacking system on the spine frames. Something needs to be done I'm somewhat skeptical of the V85TT as it doesn't seem to have an anti jacking system the Quota sorta worked although the shock wasn't bolted directly to the final drive and it wasn't a cure especially if they have any intention of widening their market base.
The real issue is modern bikes are now so far ahead of anything offered from Guzzi they really need to stop pandering to the past and do something different, a Hyabusa hunting V8 sports tourer? An all electric sports bike?
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But Kev, AH Fan stated "IMHO".
Wouldn't that cover your problem with him not adding "to me"?
Good point, yes it probably does, and I'm not coming at him personally so much as to say it's ok to prefer one or the other, but it's probably silly to blanket say "better" without qualifying it.
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Single side shock.. Ohlins maybe?
I can't wait for these models to actually come out. That way I relate an informed opinion.
Who knows, I just might like riding big glittery turd!
If I don't like it, I'll keep my 06 B11 and go in search of a Multistrada...or Kawi H2 Se tourer. That'll show'em.
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Single side shock.. Ohlins maybe?
Not exactly reassuring is it? We'll see what the reviews are like I guess.
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I'm in two minds about this, espcailly as no one has ridden the V85TT so no idea if the motor lives up to the claims. An 80hp shaft driven bike with twin shocks? I've ridden them, they're crap and Ohlins will simply be rolling a turd in glitter, it may help but you are trying to get around physics. Modern production version of the paraleogrammo a version of the CARC system or the anti jacking system on the spine frames. Something needs to be done I'm somewhat skeptical of the V85TT as it doesn't seem to have an anti jacking system the Quota sorta worked although the shock wasn't bolted directly to the final drive and it wasn't a cure especially if they have any intention of widening their market base.
The real issue is modern bikes are now so far ahead of anything offered from Guzzi they really need to stop pandering to the past and do something different, a Hyabusa hunting V8 sports tourer? An all electric sports bike?
Every single model they’ve trotted out to compete with modern bikes has been a failure or as with the CARC bikes, an evolutionary dead end. That’s a shame since the Griso and Norge 8 valve bikes were very good machines.
They really don’t need to continue failing. The V7 is a success. The V9 is not. A V8 styled like the V7 would sell. Everyone here can gnash their teeth and complain but there no arguing that the most popular motorcycle Guzzi has produced in the last 30 years is the V7.
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Every single model they’ve trotted out to compete with modern bikes has been a failure or as with the CARC bikes, an evolutionary dead end.
Indeed. The CARC bikes might have succeeded if they weren't such an obvious copy of BMWs product line, except one or more evolutionary steps behind. The Griso is an exception and one that reflected much better on the brand, but I'd maintain that no company will ever build or rebuild a brand by copying another successful product. Piaggio has seemingly figured that out at last, and is slowly rebuilding the brand with the V7s. I think if they keep going, building economical but stylish, distinct Guzzis first then slowly moving upmarket, they stand a much better chance of succeeding.
The V85TT is a way to move a little bit progressively upmarket, exploiting a niche for a more 'grounded' adventure bike that has been vacated by competitors. The styling and concept is good enough. The only thing it needs now is to perform 'well enough' to get good reviews. The small block V7 has already shown it doesn't have to be a Superbike like the original to be successful, and similarly the V85TT won't need to have numbers like a R12GS. If the TT works out I think you can be sure the next one will be a V85 street bike.
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If you are going to say that the CARC series bikes are 'Copies' of BMW's you'd have to say the same for every previous Guzzi twin from 1967. It's a lousy argument. The layout of the engine makes the hi-cam distribution system a no brainer. Short of bevel driving the cam or cams in the heads it's the only option really.
Pete
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The Brevona, Norge and Stelvio are BMW derivative bikes, not engines. The same power train in something else might’ve caught the markets attention.
Also, Guzzi introduced their original modernized engine at the same time as BMW (1993)
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IMHO, the CARC bikes were a well conceived, but poorly executed, attempt at a modern line-up of a standard, sport, sport-tourer and adventure tourer. When sorted they were stellar performers in the handling, braking and power delivery encompassing some pretty high end components. I wish they had continued to evolve.
What hurt he CARC bikes was poor assembly quality, some major design flaws and a sparse dealer network that had inadequate factory support.
Number one, todays high end motorcycle buyer should not be expected to have to do things like disassemble the swing arm and shock linkage to add missing grease, coat circuit boards that should have been done at the supplier or replace delicate spark plug caps. That may have worked 30 years ago with the mechanically inclined riders of that era, but not in this century.
Number two, and maybe biggest was the poorly designed and handled flat tappet fiasco, along with needing fuses to protect an aux light circuit that can disable the bike if shorted out, add start circuit wiring to fix inadequate wiring/switches.
Not repeating these issues will be paramount for any new bikes they trot out, whether I like the design or not.
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Indeed. The CARC bikes might have succeeded if they weren't such an obvious copy of BMWs product line, except one or more evolutionary steps behind. The Griso is an exception and one that reflected much better on the brand, but I'd maintain that no company will ever build or rebuild a brand by copying another successful product. Piaggio has seemingly figured that out at last, and is slowly rebuilding the brand with the V7s. I think if they keep going, building economical but stylish, distinct Guzzis first then slowly moving upmarket, they stand a much better chance of succeeding.
The V85TT is a way to move a little bit progressively upmarket, exploiting a niche for a more 'grounded' adventure bike that has been vacated by competitors. The styling and concept is good enough. The only thing it needs now is to perform 'well enough' to get good reviews. The small block V7 has already shown it doesn't have to be a Superbike like the original to be successful, and similarly the V85TT won't need to have numbers like a R12GS. If the TT works out I think you can be sure the next one will be a V85 street bike.
I agree with most of what you say except that I disagree manufacturers can't get ahead copying the competition. Even if the CARC bikes were aimed squarely at certain BMW models, they failed due to marketing and not because the bikes were bad or inferior. Ducati jumped on the scrambler bandwagon and sold 16,000 of them in the first year. They haven't had a scrambler since 1962 so it's not like they did a whole lot with the niche in the last 56 years. Ducati was smart by saying the Scrambler isn't a model but a separate brand within a brand. It's the whole "lifestyle" thing that we all hate. As much as we hate it...it works. It sells motorcycles.
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Hello
Over the weekend I went into a mega multi-brand motorcycle shop to buy a new helmet (stinking deal on a Shoei) and nostalgia is well and truely in. Triumph especially but offerings from Suzuki and Honda (a 125 Monkey bike for goodness sake)
I generally avoid these places like the plague but at the same time opened my eyes a bit.
I think there is a place for a LeMans replica using the V85. The whole nostalgia thing was definitely not in action in late 1980's-early 90's so I do not think the 1000S history is a reasonable example. At that time I was working on drilling rigs and making good money with little opportunity to spend it. As a Guzzi owner and fan at the time, I considered a 1000S and considered it a poor copy of the original and didn't buy one. I do not understand why they command the $ now either........
Anyway fast forward to today and seeing Triumph's with faux rigid rears, paint jobs circa 1962 and probably stick on bullet holes and considering the current range of other manufacturers, if people weren't buying them they wouldn't be for sale eg Re-booted Katana anyone.....
So I think a faux LeMans will find buyers, the demographic that it is targeted at is now old enough and perhaps cashed up enough to live the glory days they never had (just don't make the rearsets and clip-ons too extreme for old bones)
But that shouldn't be it in the range, no way! Give me a 1400 version of this http://www.guareschimoto.it/gc-corse-kit-varano/
Then I'll be happy!!! Nothing wrong with looking forward and back.
Cheers
Jason
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I'm in two minds about this, espcailly as no one has ridden the V85TT so no idea if the motor lives up to the claims. An 80hp shaft driven bike with twin shocks?
The TT has a single shock and an Ohlins option.
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The TT has a single shock and an Ohlins option.
Yes, it does, but a cantilever rear end is really a bit so-so on the back of a bike supposed to have dirt road capability.
Having said that once I'd bought it a decent shock my Mana was actually a very nice machine both on tar and graded dirt but it's fat, road tyres meant it was never going off road.
Pete
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No Martin. The CARC series bikes were really competitive in their field. The problem was that the old codgers were upset by them and the general public were ignorant of them.
I know you'll never agree but that's the truth of it.
Pete
i was agreeing with sales failure comment hence nos grisos still bolted to dealers floors now, years after production
hardly good bizYes, it does, but a cantilever rear end is really a bit so-so on the back of a bike supposed to have dirt road capability.
Having said that once I'd bought it a decent shock my Mana was actually a very nice machine both on tar and graded dirt but it's fat, road tyres meant it was never going off road.
Pete
pds (linkless) shocks not hard to research off road. Pioneered by WP for kato and burg mx/ enduro bikes . Many titles won
wether market needs parawhatsit rear end nuther story
I don’t a good shock with 6” travel perfect for me
thing will be a seller imho
the lemans rep that follows even more so
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The frame looks like my old Suzuki Bandit 600, not a bad thing. But I hate that rear subframe. I'd rather it look like an old Guzzi or just chopped off.
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Remember the 1000S? That was nearly thirty years ago. People said "Why don't Guzzi build a LeMans again? I'd buy one!" So they built the 1000S and it sat around in showrooms like a stale bottle of inferior beer!
Back then the idea of a 'Sporting Tonti' was already a ludicrous anachronism. Nothing has changed. If they were to build a facsimile of the LeMans now it would still sell like rat sandwiches. Move on for Christ's sakes!
Pete
Pete what I have trouble understanding is ebay listings like this https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Moto-Guzzi-1000S/153274844197 $18700 and possibly still climbing for this used stale bottle of inferior beer. I was not one of those that said they would buy one 30 years ago as I was a young bloke with a wife, kids and mortgage. I have always liked the look of them but for a price rapidly approaching 20 big ones I hope it has been well maintained as stated in its 81000 km's. I guess I will always like the look of these but at this price I will never be in a position to comment if they are as good as something like a Tooheys old or your description.
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My $.02. I'm a Guzzi lover, owned three: 2 V50's and a Breva 1100.
When it comes to styling you cannot beat the shape of the V7 Tank and for the most part the overall look. I just can't deal with 49 H.P. in a 750 cc bike. So when the V9's came out I got excited a bit more power, but the styling went out with the babies dirty diapers.
Now we have a V85 with the right power in an adventure style - I like. So where is the sin to just put the V85 engine in the V7 or tweak the V7 Power, add a mono shock . The 850 engine is not new MG had them for many ears in Europe.
I'd buy a new one IF the small blocks were more on par with Triumph Bonneville's, Ducati Monsters, Yamaha F-07's, BMW F800's. MG are priced in their league, now back it up with comparable specs and performance.
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I'd buy a new one IF the small blocks were more on par with Triumph Bonneville's, Ducati Monsters, Yamaha F-07's, BMW F800's. MG are priced in their league, now back it up with comparable specs and performance.
But everything you just mentioned is apples and oranges in terms of motor (water cooling and OHC or Desmo). Hell only the Bonnie even has the styling of the smallblocks.
That said I'd still take a V7 over a Bonnie Street Twin---though we might add the latter to the fleet.
As for Duc comparisons, at least mention the Scrambler which still out-powers the smallblock but since we have basically the same motor in our older Monster I can truthfully tell you I would still take a V7 over it.
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My $.02. I'm a Guzzi lover, owned three: 2 V50's and a Breva 1100.
When it comes to styling you cannot beat the shape of the V7 Tank and for the most part the overall look. I just can't deal with 49 H.P. in a 750 cc bike. So when the V9's came out I got excited a bit more power, but the styling went out with the babies dirty diapers.
Now we have a V85 with the right power in an adventure style - I like. So where is the sin to just put the V85 engine in the V7 or tweak the V7 Power, add a mono shock . The 850 engine is not new MG had them for many ears in Europe.
I'd buy a new one IF the small blocks were more on par with Triumph Bonneville's, Ducati Monsters, Yamaha F-07's, BMW F800's. MG are priced in their league, now back it up with comparable specs and performance.
The V7 wouldn't be the same bike if they made all the changes you suggest, and the changes needed to balance the bike to the additional power. I say, build a new street bike that appeals to those who don't want a V7, but keep doing what they are doing with the V7 until it is no longer popular.
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Not challenging. My point MG can bump up the power and Water cooling, OHC, Desmo won't be necessary BMW did a fine job with the old airhead bikes. I agree I'd take the V7 over those mentioned, just would like to see be more competitive in performance. Just mike buyers of those other bikes take notice and buy. Increased market demand will bring more dealer interest. Heaven knows we need more dealers.
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Just to be helpful the v7lll series are all rated at 52hp!
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Just to be helpful the v7lll series are all rated at 52hp!
Right up there with my old 78 Bonneville
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Right up there with my old 78 Bonneville
Which wasn't nearly as restricted by emissions and couldn't even RUN without melting itself if you tried to get this power out of it AND get anywhere near EU III or IV emissions levels. Which makes the comparison useless.
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Couldn't agree more.
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Pete what I have trouble understanding is ebay listings like this https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Moto-Guzzi-1000S/153274844197 $18700 and possibly still climbing for this used stale bottle of inferior beer. I was not one of those that said they would buy one 30 years ago as I was a young bloke with a wife, kids and mortgage. I have always liked the look of them but for a price rapidly approaching 20 big ones I hope it has been well maintained as stated in its 81000 km's. I guess I will always like the look of these but at this price I will never be in a position to comment if they are as good as something like a Tooheys old or your description.
I have a 93-1000S with about 65,000 miles (104,600KM) on the clock, have owned it for over 20 years and have replaced the U-joint(only because of bad mechanic) the final drive seal and the Ducati voltage regulator. Did replace the front springs as the stock Bitubos aren't very good. My 07 Norge (75,000 miles with little maintenance issues) is probably a better bike, but I much prefer riding the 1000S.
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Why? The laws of physics haven't changed?
technology has been refined, better carburation, flow, material strength, injection, computer analysis and simulation. Same reason wheels are better and lighter. better pistons? lighter valve train? Better cam profiles?
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technology has been refined, better carburation, flow, material strength, injection, computer analysis and simulation. Same reason wheels are better and lighter. better pistons? lighter valve train? Better cam profiles?
Good point.
We can see one illustration in the new 2019 Bonnie Street Twin which just debuted as a revision to the previous generation.
According to Triumph's claims all they did was lighten some internal engine components (balancer shaft and maybe crank etc.) and without even different camshaft profiles they got another 10 crank how out of the thing at peak by spinning it faster.
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Which wasn't nearly as restricted by emissions and couldn't even RUN without melting itself if you tried to get this power out of it AND get anywhere near EU III or IV emissions levels. Which makes the comparison useless.
Don't be dissing my old Bonnie Harley-boy :boxing: :boozing: and yes it did melt, but that's because the guy I sold it to had a garage fire that melted it, a Gold Wing, and something else. Emissions, you're funny. plus I was just aiming that at Chad :bow: As much fun as I had on that bike, similar weight and power would make the V7 a fun bike. I just think the tank is ugly.
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Found this over on the lemans forum , interesting explanation on the power bump.
The secrets of the Moto Guzzi V85 engine Antonio Cappellini - responsible for the design of the Piaggio group - reveals the secrets of the two-cylinder Moto Guzzi V85. Titanium and maniacal valves seeking lightness to increase power and make the delivery smoother, as well as semi-dry crankcase lubrication At the last Motor Show in Milan, Moto Guzzi presented the prototype of the V85 endurona. In the last few months we interviewed Marco Lambri, the person in charge of the bike line, who told us some anecdotes about the birth of this bike. Now instead the word goes to Antonio Cappellini - number one of the design of the Piaggio group - that exclusively for Motociclismo unveils the secrets of the twin-cylinder Moto Guzzi V85. Off-road rider, amateur rider of motocross and husband of a motorcyclist who in his youth guided the Aspes Hopi (and who knows if he knows that the 125 Gallarate was a nice peperino!) Cappellini does not skimp information on the new engine dell'endurona. The secrets of the Moto Guzzi V85 engine A new Guzzi engine is always a highly anticipated event not only by the enthusiasts of the Mandello del Lario brand. Really this V of 90 ° is different from the two-cylinder that equip the custom V9 and the naked V7 III? "It derives from the V9 engine, but only in architecture and bore and stroke measurements; the analogy ends here and can be considered a whole new engine. And I explain why. Let's start by saying that the lubrication is a semi-dry crankcase and not a wet sump. We have two coaxial pumps instead of one; they are used for the delivery and to recover the lubricant. In the old V7 engine all the oil was sent to the top of the heads and less to other parts. Of course, so exposed to the air it cooled well and lowered the temperature of the hottest area, but it was not the best for general lubrication. We are so sure of the performance of this semi-dry system that we do not even have an oil cooler. With the semi-dry solution we also have a crank shaft crankcase completely insulated, avoiding the possible absorption of power deriving from an "open" solution where the piston must also overcome the back pressure inside the crankcases ". But how did you manage to increase the power up to 80 hp? The V9 has only 55. A nice step forward. "Everyone thinks that this engine has four valves per cylinder for this performance. Actually we only have two. It was a good undertaking to get 100 HP / liter from an air-cooled engine while maintaining the distribution to rods and rocker arms. However, we wanted to respect the classic technical architecture of Guzzi engines ". What is the secret to having these benefits? "Having a titanium intake valve. It weighs half of an analogous steel and this has allowed us to adopt a geometry of the opening of the valves much more radical. We still used only one intake manifold, but with a throttle body of 52 mm in diameter against 38 mm of that of the peaceful V9. In addition, the accelerator is ride-by-wire, while the other has a mechanical drive. With the electronic throttle control, engine management is facilitated and we can better manage the entire supply, starting with the various mappings and the traction control system. But we did not stop here in the technical review of the V9. Because the V85 has a new crankshaft, several stiffer connecting rods and even shorter-clad pistons. We have saved almost 30% of the weight of the embellishment. And this has allowed us to cut the vibrations drastically even at maximum speed ". The frame is completely different from those of the history of the twin-cylinder V7, so much so that the engine has become an element of stiffening of the entire structure. Did you have to intervene on the base? "Yes, the carter are all new, sturdier just to give greater rigidity because I wanted a frame that would allow you to enter the curve with the same precision and solidity of our Stelvio. And I told my engineers: 'As long as I do not feel the tread that rubs on the asphalt I'm not happy'. And touch, I assure you that it touches! We have also extended the swingarm to make the rear suspension work better and increase the driving precision on the fast ". The secrets of the Moto Guzzi V85 engine The V85 is born to confront with a fierce competition in the off-road sector, motorcycles that have brilliant engines ... "I assure you that this twin-cylinder will be quick and bright. We have a torque that expresses the maximum of its value of 80 Nm at only 3,400 rpm and its work curve is actually a straight line that remains so until the maximum of laps. Of course we can not compete with the twin-cylinder 1200, but we play with the competitors of equal displacement. We are there having a year around this engine and we have not finished yet, but we want to be sure to have a motor at the height of a great Guzzi. We could certainly build a liquid-cooled twin cylinder with four valves per cylinder - and we will do it - but we wanted to keep the image of a classic Guzzi at all costs ". Guzzi engines are recognized with their eyes closed not only for the sound to the exhaust, but also for that clock that accompanies the insertion of the gear. "You will not hear it anymore. Using a dry clutch, and ours is, when the first gear engages, the complete disengaging of the clutch allows the whole system of the primary transmission and the gearbox to turn quickly again. The clock that is heard derives from the engagement of the selector that collides with the fast rotation of the gears. With the friction in the oil bath everything is 'softer' and the noise is lower. But we worked hard to soften, even make this clock disappear and have more silent gearshifts than the six-speed gearbox. In addition we have put a damper on the output of the gearbox due to the increased power and to have an even 'softer' response to the final shaft transmission ". It has always been said that the ever more stringent anti-pollution regulations would not allow to keep the air-cooled engines ... "But this V85 is the proven proof that you can very well make a similar engine that passes the guillotine of emissions without problems. It was immediately OK for the Euro 4 and is already ready to adapt to the much more restrictive Euro 5. We will probably have to work hard on the catalysts, but with a power of 100 hp / liter there are no problems even with air cooling. And then this is an engine that consumes very little. If you think about it, it's a propeller that does not have too many components to absorb power. It has no cooling pump, it does not have long chains or distribution belts and the rod and rocker system is among the most parks in eating power ... And so we consume little ". Has it been studied to grow in displacement? "No. Not because it is not structured to accommodate a cubature even higher, but because it is born to have a balance between performance and lightness. And that's what we're looking for from a bike in this category ". Will it also be used for other models? "Yes: we are working on a road version that already today drives very, very well, and then on more ...".
https://www.google.c...llini-70088.amp
docc, nobleswood, footgoose and 2 others like this
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I got as far as, “maniacal valves”....
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"In the old V7 all the oil was sent to the top of the heads and less to other parts." Oh my sainted aunt fanny!
And then there is all this waffle about pistons overcoming back pressure? One assumes he's banging on about combatting windage but who the hell knows?
Lighter valves? Yes, helpful! I would expect a considerable amount of that weight saving to be offset by the increased mass of the roller tappets. As for the cam profiles we won't know until someone graphs them.
Bigger throttle body is of course a major factor but not without its drawbacks. I wonder if they'll use a large plenum like the Cali 14? I still expect a quite high idle, 1500 rpm or higher.
I'm still guessing we'll see 63-65 real RWHP. If we get anything much more than that I'll be impressed.
Pete
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:laugh: :laugh: I thought that article might get your attention Pete.
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Yeah, I'd seen it before. I'm sure some stuff was lost in translation but the vast majority of it is mindless blather.
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I'm still guessing we'll see 63-65 real RWHP. If we get anything much more than that I'll be impressed.
Pete
Wait, wtf don't we plan on like about a 15% loss from crank to rear wheel on a Guzzi shaft drive?!?
Cause 80 crank hp - 15% (12 HP) = 68 rwhp
Or within a few hp of your prediction.
And if that's the case, what the HolyMotherFruckinCr ap is with all the weeping, bitching, and gnashing of teeth?!?
Why in the love of gawd do you give a FlyingMotherCumFruk ThroughaRollingJell yDonut? Is the 3 hp or so give or take difference between claimed an actual a problem?!?
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Kev it makes ZERO difference to me what it's figures are. The PROBLEM as I see it is that they are making a big noise about 80HP and people are assuming that means at the wheel, (They do, most people do!) and as soon as it's taken out by the press it will be revealed that it's way off the mark and it will get panned and non Guzzi folks will loose all interest.
It's not what the bike will be like, I think it will be OK, it's what it will sell like that concerns me.
Pete
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Kev it makes ZERO difference to me what it's figures are. The PROBLEM as I see it is that they are making a big noise about 80HP and people are assuming that means at the wheel, (They do, most people do!) and as soon as it's taken out by the press it will be revealed that it's way off the mark and it will get panned and non Guzzi folks will loose all interest.
It's not what the bike will be like, I think it will be OK, it's what it will sell like that concerns me.
Pete
No, no frigging way. No one past an adult version of a window licking moron in this day and age is ever going to think that a HP figure published by an OEM is REAR WHEEL vs crank, that hasn't happened by pretty much any major manufacturer in DECADES.
And even if there is an exception the one that expects otherwise is still a booger eating moron!!!
Seriously, wtf, what OEM has released a hp figure that didn't show a lower number on a mag Dyno test in decades?!?
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It's not what the bike will be like, I think it will be OK, it's what it will sell like that concerns me.
Pete
My hope is that it's modern enough with enough power to take it out of the "old fart's bike" category to something that's appealing to a broader audience. If enough wins the day and more people buy this Guzzi it will be mission accomplished, regardless of specs. That so many folks get all worked up about numbers is amusing but your point is well taken. The majority will never take a test ride because a bike is too heavy/light, chain/shaft, has a beak/doesn't, has gas tank seams, etc, etc, etc. "Only" making +/- 65 rear wheel HP may turn many off without ever setting foot in a dealership. Too bad for them but also too bad for Guzzi.
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Lots of valid points concerning who this may or may not appeal to. The one thing I like about the whole concept is the return of an 850 small block. If it has anyway near the the 76 ponies of yesteryear's it will be a perfect mount for a lot of folks who could care less about HP spec. The carbed 850 motor is one of Guzzi's best to date IMHO.
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No, no frigging way. No one past an adult version of a window licking moron in this day and age is ever going to think that a HP figure published by an OEM is REAR WHEEL vs crank, that hasn't happened by pretty much any major manufacturer in DECADES.
And even if there is an exception the one that expects otherwise is still a booger eating moron!!!
Seriously, wtf, what OEM has released a hp figure that didn't show a lower number on a mag Dyno test in decades?!?
Your(I hope) humorous outburst notwithstanding, a lot of people do believe manufacturer claims regarding both HP and weight. Dry vs wet weight and crank vs rwhp are often taken as gospel. When someone buys a motorcycle they always seek to affirm their decision. It's natural that they choose to believe the best about their bike. Hardcore enthusiasts are not the majority of riders and many, many owners don't know the difference between RWHP and crank hp. If I had a dollar every time some rider claimed their old cruiser could go 160mph or a guy on a Harley said their bike has 120+hp...I could pay a few months mortgage.
Motorcycles riders are like fisherman....they lie.
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That's beautiful, John.
It won't be the bike for bench racers, that's for sure.
I wonder if history will repeat itself here. Dave Serle, the last competent editor for MotorCycle Consumer News, wrote a glowing review of the Stelvio several years back. Went so far as to say, and I paraphrase, that it was an equally valid choice as the 1200GS. High praise indeed from the press.
It didn't mean a hill of beans for sales.
I'll be totally amazed if the reviews that are forthcoming are anything like the R/E new 650's, which by and large are getting nice press as being quite entertaining at the modest power output. I'll expect more like "Guzzi missed the boat with only xxxxx power in a bike segment that screams for xxxxxx power".
Time will tell, as in most things.
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I'd buy a new one IF the small blocks were more on par with Triumph Bonneville's, Ducati Monsters, Yamaha F-07's, BMW F800's. MG are priced in their league, now back it up with comparable specs and performance.
So you can have a modern Guzzi as is (hand made in Italy) or a modern Triumph as is (assembled from parts made in S.E. Asia)
I'd chose the slower Guzzi every day! Those Bonnies should been made in the U.K. regardless of price.
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If I had a dollar every time some rider claimed their old cruiser could go 160mph or a guy on a Harley said their bike has 120+hp...I could pay a few months mortgage.
Those are examples of the window lickers...
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I got as far as, “maniacal valves”....
I have some Maniacal Valves. They're from an ALFA Romeo V6. Those maniacal sons of bitches are lying bent in a bucket of other broken parts that came out of the top end of the engine...
:grin:
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I read the original article in Italian and IIRC the engineer was quoted as saying the design team had paid maniacal attention to the design of the valve train, cam etc. in order to improve engine performance.
A friend of mine has a Stelvio and Griso, as well as a new R12GS in the US and a 2005 GS in Europe. He thinks the Stelvio is closer matched to the 2005 GS, notwithstanding the ridiculous electric assist brakes on that bike.
The V85TT will benefit from not competing directly with much of anything. A follow on street bike can and should do the same. A good example from the past is the Ducati Monster.
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That's beautiful, John.
It won't be the bike for bench racers, that's for sure.
I wonder if history will repeat itself here. Dave Serle, the last competent editor for MotorCycle Consumer News, wrote a glowing review of the Stelvio several years back. Went so far as to say, and I paraphrase, that it was an equally valid choice as the 1200GS. High praise indeed from the press.
It didn't mean a hill of beans for sales.
I'll be totally amazed if the reviews that are forthcoming are anything like the R/E new 650's, which by and large are getting nice press as being quite entertaining at the modest power output. I'll expect more like "Guzzi missed the boat with only xxxxx power in a bike segment that screams for xxxxxx power".
Time will tell, as in most things.
I think it's going to get good reviews based on the very positive press that's been generated before the bike has even been road tested. Unless Guzzi really screws the pooch(like the bike dyno's sub 60hp or they lunch themselves ala roller fiasco), it might be a nice sales booster. It's not going to poach sales from the small blocks or big blocks. A roadster will. I think they're going to have to dump the 750 and use the new mill in a V7IV. The "Le Mans" that people are clamoring for in this thread will be the V7IV Cafe Racer. Swapping everything in the current small block line up to the 850 is really the only thing that makes sense for a company that sells 10,000 bikes a year.
Testers will whine about the tube tires and dealer network, like everyone else, but as long as the handling is up to par and the bikes are reliable they will ride and test well. The price is right. The bikes are feature rich. They fit into a popular niche. I don't see a problem. However, I am convinced the bike is going to dyno at 60-63hp. It has to. Physics is physics doncha know.
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Dusty,
You made me spit out my coffee!
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I wonder if an OEM has ever "suggested" or tweaked a dyno report? Nah!
Never do they install a "factory enhanced" computer, either. Or hot timing and/or cams.
Never heard that about Guzzi but it's been strongly suggested and even published about possibly a few others.
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I think they're going to have to dump the 750 and use the new mill in a V7IV. The "Le Mans" that people are clamoring for in this thread will be the V7IV Cafe Racer.
<snip>
I don't see a problem. However, I am convinced the bike is going to dyno at 60-63hp. It has to. Physics is physics doncha know.
Either way, it would be perfect homage to a LeMans - you know, claim XX hp, actually make a lot less. :angel:
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So we seem to be back to bitching about hp figures. All I care about there is that the bike has a nice bump in power over my V7iii that more than makes up for the extra weight. Pretty sure it will do that.
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Why was I worried??? Of course that motor will be strong enough to pull 2 people around all day!!
*We went too many days without someone from either side of the horsepower argument piping up. :boxing:
(http://discoverv85.motoguzzi.com/assets/images/gallery/moto_gallery_ambiente_01.jpg)
I hear that if you ride in just swimming trunks, it'll be good for another 5hp. "Free-style" ! :wink:
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This was posted in the V11 Lemans Forum:
(https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/uploads/post-7543-0-07980500-1543998595.jpeg)
google for "V85PP (Peso Piuma)
Nice idea, a V85TT with the looks of a Griso.
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This was posted in the V11 Lemans Forum:
(https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/uploads/post-7543-0-07980500-1543998595.jpeg)
google for "V85PP (Peso Piuma)
Nice idea, a V85TT with the looks of a Griso.
A kids drawing of a Griso? I'd rather have a near copy of a LeMans, LeMans III or 850 T5
(https://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/Gallery%20%20A/Moto%20Guzzi%20850%20T5%2083%20%201.jpg)
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Why was I worried??? Of course that motor will be strong enough to pull 2 people around all day!!
*We went too many days without someone from either side of the horsepower argument piping up. :boxing:
(http://discoverv85.motoguzzi.com/assets/images/gallery/moto_gallery_ambiente_01.jpg)
I hear that if you ride in just swimming trunks, it'll be good for another 5hp. "Free-style" ! :wink:
I'm starting to come around to the Ronald Mc Donald look...
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I'm starting to come around to the Ronald Mc Donald look...
I like the red frame, but not the bits around the triple cramps or tail section....too much!
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I like the red frame, but not the bits around the triple cramps or tail section....too much!
Dude, I swear to gawd I feel like I'm following you around from thread to thread (and forum to forum) listening to your complaints:
* You don't like the matte paint on the V7
* You don't like the blacked out engine on the W800
* You don't like the fenders on the CX Sporty
* You don't like the red "bits .... "
jeez man....
Anyway, as usual I'll differ on this. The red frame (including the sub-frames at front and back) on this bike seem perfect to me!
As a matter of fact I kinda wonder what the red/white premium is gonna look like, I hope it has the red frame too.
Maybe something like this:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/xY8HzWOtrhe2QqDi1DyKwJY3Cdt8vBTMKgS8_VympWOhy-0B5hkLBPSnPv0qrDAEkebSBNFwbr0-4mme3dRRBV797_1rQl9xL_AXaaYB-apAf2velhdac-s_OIlHmEAb07_7SKwUcqizz_f-zM1G6ibVxo9MRQJOHxeaCYcqyesKg2q0SYywr2VH33_jerY3x4PV0XJG1lm24Sp1A_M70pS2nQRVpe87oB1bljYHK3pf3vU4aCVOj7w-6JK4ViIPVTzUwPW3sdn5b2D-KIfkKLDZUIeM7_jUEoD9GU9jmdH6rCb3nN3laitfBhfP3h9ceP6HpeKgZBKLKH__Z8cxTtv93SivkAzqqnIqwa4jdAMmac41LUhOYVfXA1hbBDLkCziKrBMc2Qv47WmwkT4_Diy2ZIpsLL4OPn4gkBEpDdlD09nT5xUoqa1pzgg7tC28jicZC2O72l-gQfSmnccF0QigFGevj61BlbR8DEuAoGMlBS1ldy-t16qDW8tRFOqUbEHUCCHmF52K_DZkhzhYMMCt4aR8ubLIG5ymvQZVLdE7Z7kTy38F1usbIJ8XZjdlLD1OpvBD-HwwfohsK0EgV1mqfW81IPxtAOVwTJEimSB63H3Xn8e7m947-gxfUY_oay6aZu4SvUYd34ctf_ht9HO2PL7gzB6EXSyivJRTrdK7kl0vEFtPFD_VPLxv8YHml9zKRSVuK2jdMIj2xqQ=w640-h529-no)
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Dude, I swear to gawd I feel like I'm following you around from thread to thread (and forum to forum) listening to your complaints:
* You don't like the matte paint on the V7
* You don't like the blacked out engine on the W800
* You don't like the fenders on the CX Sporty
* You don't like the red "bits .... "
jeez man....
Anyway, as usual I'll differ on this. The red frame (including the sub-frames at front and back) on this bike seem perfect to me!
As a matter of fact I kinda wonder what the red/white premium is gonna look like, I hope it has the red frame too.
Maybe something like this:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/xY8HzWOtrhe2QqDi1DyKwJY3Cdt8vBTMKgS8_VympWOhy-0B5hkLBPSnPv0qrDAEkebSBNFwbr0-4mme3dRRBV797_1rQl9xL_AXaaYB-apAf2velhdac-s_OIlHmEAb07_7SKwUcqizz_f-zM1G6ibVxo9MRQJOHxeaCYcqyesKg2q0SYywr2VH33_jerY3x4PV0XJG1lm24Sp1A_M70pS2nQRVpe87oB1bljYHK3pf3vU4aCVOj7w-6JK4ViIPVTzUwPW3sdn5b2D-KIfkKLDZUIeM7_jUEoD9GU9jmdH6rCb3nN3laitfBhfP3h9ceP6HpeKgZBKLKH__Z8cxTtv93SivkAzqqnIqwa4jdAMmac41LUhOYVfXA1hbBDLkCziKrBMc2Qv47WmwkT4_Diy2ZIpsLL4OPn4gkBEpDdlD09nT5xUoqa1pzgg7tC28jicZC2O72l-gQfSmnccF0QigFGevj61BlbR8DEuAoGMlBS1ldy-t16qDW8tRFOqUbEHUCCHmF52K_DZkhzhYMMCt4aR8ubLIG5ymvQZVLdE7Z7kTy38F1usbIJ8XZjdlLD1OpvBD-HwwfohsK0EgV1mqfW81IPxtAOVwTJEimSB63H3Xn8e7m947-gxfUY_oay6aZu4SvUYd34ctf_ht9HO2PL7gzB6EXSyivJRTrdK7kl0vEFtPFD_VPLxv8YHml9zKRSVuK2jdMIj2xqQ=w640-h529-no)
Kev.
I doubt that there'd be anyone on this forum that says "I disagree" more than you do. For every opinion on which you differ, there is an equal and opposite force (opposing view).
So does it not follow that their view could be equally as valid, and therefore you could be open to similar critique..?
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Kev.
I doubt that there'd be anyone on this forum that says "I disagree" more than you do. For every opinion on which you differ, there is an equal and opposite force (opposing view).
Look, I like OH, and I think he knows that.
That said, there's a HUGE difference in disagreeing philosophically on and debating how to handle X task or philosophically/morally with Y and just stating "I don't like". The latter is fine in moderation but quickly becomes boorish if overused.
There's PLENTY of bikes I don't like, and gear I don't like, and activities, and food and...
But I generally don't come onto threads about them and bitch about em (at least much, and not over and over).
I might occasionally lament that I would prefer one thing over another (say tubeless wheels on a certain model).
(And to be clear, although I'm giving OH shit in the last post, I do realize more or less that's all he's doing. It just seems that as of late he's doing it in about a half dozen or more threads here and elsewhere all at the same time, which is why it rose to the level of giving a bud a little shit).
N'est ce pas?
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:popcorn:
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Actually, the black rims look drab. They need to be polished alloy with stainless spokes, like Norge ones... :wink:
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Was wondering what it would look like in the red/white combo.Looks good except for the pink frame.
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Either way, it would be perfect homage to a LeMans - you know, claim XX hp, actually make a lot less. :angel:
:grin:
That's OK, if they build it, I'll want one to park next to my '77 Le Mans.
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Look, I like OH, and I think he knows that.
There's PLENTY of bikes I don't like, and gear I don't like, and activities, and food and...
But I generally don't come onto threads about them and bitch about em (at
I might occasionally lament that I would prefer one thing over another (say tubeless wheels on a certain model).
(And to be clear, although I'm giving OH shit in the last post, I do realize more or less that's all he's doing. It just seems that as of late he's doing it in about a half dozen or more threads here and elsewhere all at the same time, which is why it rose to the level of giving a bud a little shit).
N'est ce pas?
No prob. here. KevM & I probably agree on bikes more than we disagree. I’m just lookin’ & dreamin’ (it's winter) and when I see all I want (and none of I don't) I might, finally, pull the trigger, again.
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No prob. here. KevM & I probably agree on bikes more than we disagree. I’m just lookin’ & dreamin’ (it's winter) and when I see all I want (and none of I don't) I might, finally, pull the trigger, again.
May you find your bliss my friend!
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May you find your bliss my friend!
Any one of the three in your garage would do it!