Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: lazlokovacs on November 29, 2018, 05:51:25 PM
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went to start the lemans today and was greeted with the sound of the starter motor turning but not the engine.
a kind of nasty metallic scraping spinning sound
ummmm
broken teeth?
solenoid not working??
excuse my ignorance
it sounds really nasty!
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Something is broken. <shrug> :smiley: Maybe take it apart and see what it is? That's what I'd do..
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Pull it out and post pictures, we can't see it from here.
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Pull it off and bench test it, put it in a vice or it may flop around alot and fall on floor.
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Makes a difference which LeMans it is, and the year. Early ones had the Bosch starter which is quite different than the Valeo that came later.
The starter comes out easily - very accessible. But disconnect the battery negative cable at the battery before doing anything!
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My 2000 V11 sport had the exact same symptoms. Took starter apart found a magnet had come unglued. Did a little research and there didn't seem to be a reliable fix for regluing the magnet. Replaced the starter for under a hundred bucks with a new one. No problems since.
TDF
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My 2000 V11 sport had the exact same symptoms. Took starter apart found a magnet had come unglued. Did a little research and there didn't seem to be a reliable fix for regluing the magnet. Replaced the starter for under a hundred bucks with a new one. No problems since.
TDF
This.
Rich A
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What year, and is it a bosch or valeo starter?
When that happens to me it's not the starter. It's the flywheel bolts sheared. So you might want to stick a screwdriver through the timing hole and see if your flywheel is still attached to the crank.
When it happens to most everyone else it's the Bendix/pinion business on the nose of the starter either failing to engage the ring gear or failing to spin the starter. Pulling your starter and examining the pinion gear will tell a lot.
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will report back
crazy busy week
Its a bosch starter
I have an old Valeo somewhere which I'm gonna dig out
Really hope my flywheel is still in union with everything else!
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When that happens to me it's not the starter.
:grin:
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ok,
solenoid appears to be performing its spinning the starter function
but not moving the actuation arm to locate the gear on the flywheel/ring gear
is that possible?
Will a Valeo from a California vintage fit a Lemans 1000?
cheers
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Yes, and yes. If you are inclined to replace it, this would be a good time.
I'll let Kiwi Roy 'splain the first yes, but you've got an ancient starter there. Unless you want the experience of overhauling it for its own sake, you're way ahead in every respect to replace it with a valeo.
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thankyou RK
I made a mistake earlier,
the starter on the Lemans is actually also a Valeo
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Ok, so it's a valeo. The actuator arm is plastic and maybe it's broken. I've not run into this problem before, and I've taken apart a lot of these starters. It should be pretty easy figuring out what's wrong once in there. If it's not been apart before, there are two pop rivets that need to be drilled out - probably a part of the assembly process, and definitely not needed by us. You'll also need a small torx bit.
Let us know what you find!
If you're not into working on it, send me a PM.
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solenoid appears to be performing its spinning the starter function
but not moving the actuation arm to locate the gear on the flywheel/ring gear
is that possible?
Not possible with the Bosch starter. The starter motor won't spin until after the solenoid levers the gear forward. Glad you figured its a Valeo.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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yeah, already started taking it apart,
actuator arm is intact,
just doesnt seem to want to move when electrically stimulated....
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If the arm's not broken, then perhaps the solenoid isn't actuating it. But I don't understand how that could be. The solenoid has two functions - actuate the drive gear and connect the battery positive lead to the starter motor. The solenoid, when it sucks in, connects two large copper contacts. So if the starter motor turns, the solenoid is definitely sucking in, but for some reason it's not activating the drive gear. Either the actuating arm is broken somewhere, something happened to the large pivot pin, or the arm broke at the end where it connects to the solenoid. A close look should reveal all.
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the plot thickens
I have the offending solenoid on my bench, can I bench test it in any way?
I have a battery and some jump leads
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The big terminal where the big positive battery cable bolted on is where you'd clip the positive jumper lead. Put a bolt in one of the threaded holes and attach the negative lead there. When power is applied, the control rod should pop into the solenoid with a loud THWACK!. I forgot to add that the solenoid is activated with +12V at the spade terminal.
But that doesn't tell you if the solenoid is passing current to the starter motor.
Easiest thing would be to connect the solenoid back up - no need to deal with the control arm or any of that - and see if the starter motor is activated when the solenoid pulls in.
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the plot thickens
I have the offending solenoid on my bench, can I bench test it in any way?
I have a battery and some jump leads
Just be aware the solenoid will pull 45 Amps while it's pulling the gear into place so use a decent wire like #14 and be positive with your actions when you make contact with the spade connector, you will get a fair size spark as you break the connection, that's normal.
The solenoid is a powerful electrical device, it stores a lot of energy.
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I've never measured the solenoid's draw all by itself. Never would have guessed it was as high as 45 amps! I do know the starter can draw 1-200 amps when turning over the engine. Haven't checked the Valeo, but I think it's less than a Bosch.
Just thinking about it, I don't see how the solenoid could draw that much current considering the small spade terminal and light gauge wire for the activation circuit. The large threaded terminal where the battery-positive-cable lead attaches isn't for the solenoid's use, but the starter motor itself. The solenoid is just a heavy duty electro-magnetic switch (relay) - it switches on the starter motor by connecting the battery to the starter, plus engaging the starter gear.
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I've never measured the solenoid's draw all by itself. Never would have guessed it was as high as 45 amps! I do know the starter can draw 1-200 amps when turning over the engine. Haven't checked the Valeo, but I think it's less than a Bosch.
Just thinking about it, I don't see how the solenoid could draw that much current considering the small spade terminal and light gauge wire for the activation circuit. The large threaded terminal where the battery-positive-cable lead attaches isn't for the solenoid's use, but the starter motor itself. The solenoid is just a heavy duty electro-magnetic switch (relay) - it switches on the starter motor by connecting the battery to the starter, plus engaging the starter gear.
Have you ever heard the term Starts Interrupts?
Its caused by exactly that the light gauge connectors, contacts and the little bitty wires.
Yes, its the "plus engaging the starter gear", that requires the heavy current, thats a huge task for a simple electromagnet.
That's why it's not a simple electromagnet, it's two coils one of heavy wire that pulls around 40 amps and another of lighter wire that draws ~10 Amps
Or at least it would if Luigi would wire it right.
I don't know the exact point the solenoid stops operating altogether to give you the dreaded click but it's in the range of 25 - 30 Amps
Just by replacing the small wire from the relay to the solenoid on my 07 Griso it made the solenoid operate 3 x as fast.
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trying the electrical test just gets me a big spark and no discernible movement on the solenoid...
But the starter was spinning when it was on the bike
Flywheel is all fine and dandy, bump started the lemans and rode it home yesterday, nice to shed a bit of weight off the old bird
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Roy - now you've got me curious. I think I'll have to measure the current on that solenoid activation lead.
I know it's a heavy duty relay, but had no idea it required THAT much current!
Lazlo - That's really odd the starter would spin without the solenoid working. Doesn't make sense, unless the solenoid is stuck in the 'on' position. The switch delivering power to the starter is only ON when when the solenoid is activated.
It sure sounds like the solenoid is the culprit.
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Roy - now you've got me curious. I think I'll have to measure the current on that solenoid activation lead.
I know it's a heavy duty relay, but had no idea it required THAT much current!
Lazlo - That's really odd the starter would spin without the solenoid working. Doesn't make sense, unless the solenoid is stuck in the 'on' position. The switch delivering power to the starter is only ON when when the solenoid is activated.
It sure sounds like the solenoid is the culprit.
How do you plan on measuring it, do you have a high speed Ammeter?
It does require THAT much current. you might just get it to pull in with 20 Amps but it won't be reliable.
A typical Guzzi relay like the Omron G8HN used on bikes around 2000 is rated for 100 Amps Inrush Current
I assume by now you have pulled the end off the starter to check the magnets are in place, what was the cause of the grinding noise?
Answering for Lazio, Since the heavy current coil is in series with the armature it might spin without pulling in, it would accelerate quite slowly I suspect. A Valeo at least, I doubt a Bosch would.
BTW
I found the notes I took on the Valeo of my 2001 VII Sport, the two solenoid coils measured
Holding Coil 1.05 Ohms, by Ohm's Law at 12 Volts that would pull 11.42 Amps
Pull in Coil 0.25 Ohms, by Ohm's Law at 12 Volts that would pull 48 Amps
For a grand total of 59.42 Amps, could easily go over 60 with a little more Voltage
With the wimpy Guzzi wiring though I measured only 37, this is without any rotation yet.
Its all this current that causes "Startus Interruptus" it only takes a fraction of an Ohm somewhere along the way and all you get is "Click, Click"
Once the solenoid closed the main contactor and it started to spin over that big old DC3, the current drawn by the motor varied from 160 to 200 Amps depending on where the engine was in it's cycle.
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Thanks for that Roy. That's all very logical and makes sense now.I was thinking of using the clamp-on Amp meter, but don't know that it would catch the peak. Looking at it from a resistance standpoint is a good way to go about it.
You've got me curious now how the coils are internally connected. You're saying the Valeo armature is powered up from the Heavy Current Coil and not a set of contacts, closed when the solenoid is drawn in? I just assumed the Valeos were like all the other starters I've worked on.
When my T3 starter acted up (click, click, click...), jolting it would make it go. Pulling the starter (Bosch), dismantling it - finding nothing wrong, put it back together and remounting fixed the issue. I'd assumed it wasn't making a good contact with the bell housing. So it makes a bit more sense that a slight bit of oil on the mounting could provide enough resistance to prevent the starter from working.
Thanks again for clearing that up for me.
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It probably wouldn't hurt to go over the starter sequence.
As I see it there are 4 steps to the starter Operation
Step 1 engage starter gear
Step 2 Crank
Step 3 Disengage starter gear
Step 4 back to rest
The first sketch shows what's likely to happen on a bike with pristine wiring.
(https://i.ibb.co/0nRDX0V/2230-002.jpg)
The second sketch shows an older bike with tired wiring
(https://i.ibb.co/C60xg8s/2230-003.jpg)
This sketch shows how to put a new spring in its step
(https://i.ibb.co/k3dML9h/2230-004.jpg)
This is just an overall diagram
(https://i.ibb.co/QnvwcCz/2230-001.jpg)
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Thanks again. Saved in my "Roy's Guzzi Stuff" file. :thumb:
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If you were ever curious about what's inside the solenoid.
Here are the two coils, I suspect I'm pretty sure, I may have lost count and they are both the same number of turns.
The 16 Gauge coil is wound on first where the diameter is quite small
The 20 Gauge is wound on top.
(https://i.ibb.co/DwMdqkZ/Guzzi-Solenoid.jpg)
The strength of a magnetic coil is Amps x No of Turns
So using 40 and 10 Amps for example
The light coil is 300 x 10 = 3,000 Ampere Turns
The heavy coil is 250 x 40 = 10,000 Ampere Turns
So in step 1 the combined strength is 13,000 Ampere Turns while pulling the solenoid and gears into place.
Step 2 it drops down to 3,000 Ampere Turns while cranking, just enough to hold everything in place
Step 3 it drops to 450 Ampere Turns (almost equal strength and opposite)
If someone has an old solenoid laying around how about counting the turns for me :kiss:
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Thanks again, Roy! Excellent data.
I can't believe that some bikes would run 40 amps through the ignition or start switch. That's crazy!
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Thanks again, Roy! Excellent data.
I can't believe that some bikes would run 40 amps through the ignition or start switch. That's crazy!
Pretty much every Guzzi since the 60s, they get away with it for a while then it drifts lower as the resistance builds up.
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Ok - you sold me. I'm installing a relay. Come to think of it now, that's the way the airheads were wired and the right side bar switch wiring burned on the R90 due to that.
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Ok - you sold me. I'm installing a relay. Come to think of it now, that's the way the airheads were wired and the right side bar switch wiring burned on the R90 due to that.
Surprise surprise.. :smiley:
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The start button does have a relay, it only carries 100 - 150 milliamps
It's the ignition switch that has to pass all the current feeding the relay's 30 terminal.
A typical relay normally open contact is rated 100 Amps Inrush, the normally closed 60 Amps because the contact pressure is quite a bit less. I have never seen the specs on an ignition switch but my gut tells me it can't be even 20.
When we do the Startus Interuptus fix we move the heavy current from the switch and apply it directly to the relay.
The only explanation I can come up with for the factory wiring this current through the switch is they think it's only 10 Amps which is all you would see if you put a meter in series with the spade connector because the High current pulse is so quick all you see is the holding current through the light coil. So armed with that information a 15 Amp fuse and little bitty wire seems reasonable.
But if you were to take an Ohmmeter and measure between the spade connector and chassis you will get a reading significantly less than 1 Ohm so how can that be?
This is how I found out Luigi's drawings are wrong, there are two coils not one as he shows.
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It turns out the bike is a 1990 Lemans 1000
Carl has a drawing for that
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1990_LM_V.gif
I see a possible problem
Look at the starter relay (33) See the brown wire on the lower left terminal, it's fed from a fuse which in turn comes all the way from the ignition switch via another larger brown wire
you will be lucky to get 20 Amps all that way on a good day.
You can see this on a Voltmeter, the Voltage will read 12+ to chassis on the relay terminal but when you press the start button it will dip down, briefly if the starter works or go down and stay down if all you get is a relay click.
How to Startus Interrupts proof this wiring.
Take the wire from the lower left contact and combine it with the other wire on the coil upper left, so now its just the coil thats fed from the fuse and ignition < 1/4 Amp.
Run a new #16 feed from the battery thru a 15 Amp fuse to the relay contact lower left now you have a feed capable of supplying whatever the solenoid can draw 45 - 50 Amps and the starter will thank you for it.
A 15 Amp fuse should be sufficient because the high current spike is so short.
Of course if you want to keep the wiring original you could pull the switch apart, clean the contacts, polish up the fuse connections, tighten the jumpers and it might operate for a few more years but that will never come close to the speed of the starter with a decent feed.
Note: I'm ignoring the fact the starter solenoid is drawn wrong, only 1 coil not connected
Another weird side effect of this wiring, if you have your foot on the rear brake it probably has trouble engaging the starter.
BTW as a sparky I cringe when I see the unfused ignition switch feed (red wire), on my older bikes I added a 40 Amp Main Fuse at the battery just in case there is a short somewhere it will save the bike from a total meltdown.
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Roy, your diagrams are really helping me out
thank you
Swapped in my working Valeo from my old Cali and after a day it was slow turning and then click click click
Will investigate this weekend
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About a week ago I came home from Salem (50 miles to the south) on a cold and windy night. At the freeway exit eight miles from home, the engine died and the starter barely turned the engine over. A couple more tries and it was click click click. Pushed it off the road and down the sidewalk a 1/4 mile. The SO brought me a spare battery since I figured the alternator went out and the battery was discharged. With the new battery it was still click click click. I figured it was also discharged so hooked up jumper cables to the car. Still the same thing. Finally getting smart, I hooked up the cables directly to the starter and the thing wouldn't turn over. Went back home and came back with a spare starter - problem gone.
Two magnets had dropped in the Valeo - the two originals that hadn't broken free when I got it a year ago. I'd taken it apart and glued two magnets back into the case - and those two are still holding.
For anyone fixing their own valeo, I found a great source for parts. I got a brand new off-brand copy for $40 shipped on ebay. Except, it's not a guzzi, but for an oilhead BMW. The oil heads have the same magnet housing, solenoid, brushes, brush holder, and planetary gears.
Just the main housing with the magnets was $35 plus $12 shipping from a well known supplier. All of the spare parts I've gotten in a lot of years past have been copies, not original Valeo.
You've got to be careful with magnet housings. They may look identical, but the magnets can be arranged differently which determines rotation direction.
Another thing of note is that the magnets all look the same but aren't interchangeable. There are two distinctly different magnets - a North and a South. The side facing the armature is either a N or a S, and they alternate N, S, N, S inside the housing.
The oilhead bmw and Guzzi starters both rotate the same direction, so their housings are the same and interchange.
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So Roy,
Having a look at the electrical diagram for the lemans,
I need to make a new heavier cable going from battery via a fuse to the starter. What do I do with the old cable that it's replacing? ground it somewhere or?
thanks as usual
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to relay not starter
tape up old you made need switched power one day
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This is a Chinese-made "Valeo clone" starter which fits Guzzi's. For the price, this brand-new starter is probably cheaper than repairing a Bosch or a genuine Valeo "magnet-dropper". I've had one on my V50 for two riding seasons, and it has been perfect. Good value for money. But it still needs to run through a relay wired in the "startup interruptus" configuration for a bigblock, or the "Hayes mod" scheme for an early series smallblock.
https://www.dbelectrical.com/products/moto-guzzi-starter-0307307110-30730710-30730711.html#app-list
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Thanks again, Roy! Excellent data.
I can't believe that some bikes would run 40 amps through the ignition or start switch. That's crazy!
Yes it is crazy, that's why Guzzis suffer from Startus Interuptus.
The heavy current only goes through the Ignition switch however, not the start switch that only feeds the Start Relay coil about 100 milliamps.
The Start Relays are typically rated for 100 Amps Inrush so they are up for it, I don't know what the ignition switch is rated for, I can't imagine much more than 10 or 15 Amps
Go back a few posts to my 4 steps of starting reply 26, the high current is only for step 1, pulling in the solenoid.
Time taken at 25 Amps ~ 50 milliseconds or 1.25 Amp Seconds
Time taken at 40 Amps ~ 15 milliseconds or 0.6 Amp Seconds, higher current / less power
(these figures are from my Griso 1100)
I got berated for saying "the V7s are starting to fail" but as far as I can see nothing much has changed.
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This is a Chinese-made "Valeo clone" starter which fits Guzzi's. For the price, this brand-new starter is probably cheaper than repairing a Bosch or a genuine Valeo "magnet-dropper". I've had one on my V50 for two riding seasons, and it has been perfect. Good value for money. But it still needs to run through a relay wired in the "startup interruptus" configuration for a bigblock, or the "Hayes mod" scheme for an early series smallblock.
https://www.dbelectrical.com/products/moto-guzzi-starter-0307307110-30730710-30730711.html#app-list
Yes I think this is a Valeo clone with permanent magnet fields, you can tell by lack of the 4 large Phillips screws that hold the fields in place, I think the new Guzzis are using Chinese starters as well, nothing wrong with that.
Personally I love the old Bosch, they are a manly starter and will run forever if you throw a $10 Brush & Bushing kit in them every 10 or so years.
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going through the lemans 1000 wiring diagram,
there appears to be no starter relay??
is this correct?
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Or....
Are 'starter relay' and 'starter solenoid' interchangeable terms in this thread??
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You need a relay, it's $5 at the auto parts store, I would be safe and get one. Horn relay most likely will work. Don't trust the diagram, they can be wrong.
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Ready to put Kiwi Roy's plan into action
But....
I'm getting confused
On the back of the valeo solenoid there are 3 terminals, One which gets the big wire form the battery, another which passes it on to the starter and a single spade connector.
Parts diagram shows quite a strange setup which seems to have a tenuous relationship to reality..?
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What is it that is confusing? Because the diagram calls the relay a solenoid? Terminal #87 on relay goes to the spade connector on back of solenoid. Terminal # 30 goes to Battery or fuse.
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going through the lemans 1000 wiring diagram,
there appears to be no starter relay??
is this correct?
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1978_LeMans_II.gif
Yes, this one has the relay miss-labeled solenoid, item (37) is the Starter Relay, it relays the weak signal from the Start button to the stronger signal to the solenoid.
The solenoid is the cylinder on top of the starter motor.
The relay is usually under the seat or somewhere remote from the starter.
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thanks roy
It's all coming together now...
Got some 16 AWG
man that's a chunky cable!!!
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Only 50 thou (1.29mm) diameter, the copper that is.
You have my e-mail address do you want to make a simple sketch of what you are going to do so I can check it.
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Thank You Roy, even the LM4 supplement calls it the same.
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Roy,
thanks for all your help...
I had a look at the bike today, predictably the wires going to the starter relay didnt actually match the colours in the parts book...
just for the avoidance of all doubt, could you tell me which terminal is which on the moto guzzi wiring diagram?
I'm guessing bottom left is 30, bottom right is 87, but I'm not sure which way round 86 and 85 are.
Hope that makes sense
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An easy way to tell which is terminal 85 is with a volt meter or a test light. 85 is always hot when the key is on since it comes directly from the fuse block. If you need help, let us know. Test lights are a handy item and don't take much training.
Most of the time the terminals are numbered nearby. So if you pull the relay, turn it over and the numbers should be in plain sight.
According to the diagram 85 and 87 are tied together, so that should make things easy there.
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Usually all relays are marked on the bottom or top. You have to rub off the dust and get out the magnifying glass.
But in the diagram you are correct 30 lower left, 87 lower right, 86 upper left, 85 upper right.
30 is brown, 87 is red, 86 is blue with brown going to #30, 85 is black/white
Roy may be busy.
I don't use Carl's diagrams, I use factory.
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One thing to be aware of is upside down on a schematic has no meaning, the designer will draw the terminal anywhere in the box to line up with the wiring.
If you post a picture of the relay we should be able to recognize it.
It doesn't usually matter if you get 85 & 86 mixed up in fact Guzzi mix them up all the time, often between two relays on the same bike, same with 30 and 37 can be mixed as well, it becomes important when you need to use the Normally Closed contact 87a.
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Success!!!
Starter motor spinning like a top!
thanks to all who contributed, Roy, Guzzisteve, wirespokes et al...
help much appreciated
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:thumb:
What got it working?
:popcorn:
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I did roy's status interruptus fix as outlined above
:thumb: