Wildguzzi.com
General Category => Bike Builds, Rebuilds And Restorations Only => Topic started by: F-22 on December 14, 2018, 01:35:50 PM
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Hello,
I guess the time has finally come to get my V7 Special restoration underway. Had a GT750 project in the garage all summer. I bought this V7 in spring in Italy. It has a lot of patina, but it is running. My first concern was sorting out the import documents (gladly, it all went smoothly, I got it registered in just a week).
(https://i.imgur.com/hxdPl6T.jpg)
That's how it was on an Italian swap meet, before I bought it. Didn't imagine I'll ever own one, as the prices are quite steep here in Europe, and I just couldn't pass a good deal.
I did a short ride at home.
(https://i.imgur.com/in6z3vN.jpg)
I may be among the youngest members here (21), but hopefully not the dirtiest. :grin:
After the ride, I popped of the heads. Sure enough, the cylinders are flaking a little. I plan on buying two new Gilardoni cylinder and piston sets. Should I completely tear it apart? How hard is it to get the engine out (can I leave the gearbox on?). I will probably remove the front cover and check the oil pump. I assume that if the oil pump is okay, the engine may be fine, and I will probably not go any further with disassembly. It's likely the bike was not used for a long time in Italy, as they have some odd complicated laws with registering old vehicles (many got "demolition" papers, and it's nearly impossible to register such a bike again in Italy, even if it is perfectly fine). The cylinders did not seem terribly bad, but some flaking was clearly visible. I hope to get to the oil pump tomorrow, to assess it further. I plan on keeping it original, with all the patina. Are the generators reliable? probably not a bad idea to check the bracket, as I heard/read that they like to crack.
Is there anything else that should definitely be replaced, as far as the engine is concerned? Or the gearbox and final drive?
Would anyone recommend any European supplier for parts? Currently, it seems Stein-Dinse has most of what I need, and the prices seem fine. I guess I really need to look for 83mm cylinders, but there seems to be plenty of 82,5mm kits (V7 Sport?). I doubt it would have an impact on performance, but I don't want any engine balance issues as the pistons may have a different weight. On Stein Dinse, they list 83mm pistons in the name, and 82.5mm in the description, but also just 82,5mm in the name on another listing, so I guess they have both.
Hopefully, I will post some more photos as I take the engine apart a bit more tomorrow.
(https://i.imgur.com/YaS1KJp.jpg)
Seems to fit well next to my Nuovo Falcone. The Falcone has 1900km, but I wouldn't be surprised if the V7 speedo turned over once. Currently, it shows 6000km, but I can't remember if it works. I think either the speedo or the tacho do not work. Noticed some models only had a speedometer, and it is practically the same one as in certain Fiat cars, with a different (Moto Guzzi) face.
Hopefully, this will go by smoothly. I study mechanical engineering (construction/design), and am still at least a year from finishing it up (perhaps I'll even continue on masters studies afterwards), so it may get really delayed, as I sometimes barely have any free time.
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Looks great! I buy a fair amount of Guzzi parts off HMB in Germany.
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Really nice machine and congratulations for wanting to keep the patina whilst getting the engine sorted !
You really need to get right down to the crank and clean out the sludge trap as there is no oil filter on these bikes...checking all the bearings would be a sensible move too even thogh it will take time and some money.l
I use SD and HMB ....both give good service.I prefer HMB oil pumps and other special engine parts but that's only me as I've heard that some SD stuff that is newly made isn't very good.That's only hearsay.
There are also a couple of other Loop frame specialists in Germany...possibly the same guys who specialise in falcones so that would probably be worth looking up on google...I'm into Tonti and small blocks....
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Well, I got it in the garage today.
(https://i.imgur.com/BlPVm6R.jpg)
And so it began.
(https://i.imgur.com/Yhemv3S.jpg)
The left cylinder head has some damage from a fall. However, it does not leak currently, and I think it will not be problematic to weld.
(https://i.imgur.com/WclI4wk.jpg)
This second crack is a bit more annoying, because welding it would probably mess up the sealing surface even more (and it does not seem to leak as it is). The thread is bad. I'll probably get a helicoil or a custom threaded insert in it, and it'll hopefully be fine. As you can see on the photo, the top fin is just a little cracked and bent. Bending it upwards would probably break it off. It's still perfectly functional, so I'll just leave it.
(https://i.imgur.com/ly5Lg4A.jpg)
Got it all off... On the top left, you can see a switch I found hidden in the frame tube/rail. It probably had turn signals originally, and someone removed them. Since I seem to have the stock switch, I'll probably go ahead and fit some old Italian turn signals too.
(https://i.imgur.com/PkiUAp8.jpg)
Got the other side off too.
(https://i.imgur.com/p6hcA3S.jpg)
The cylinders aren't scored or anything, but I think the flaking is clearly visible, even on the photos.
(https://i.imgur.com/IpqEt1a.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/gWmj7uj.jpg)
The piston actually looks rather good in my opinion. No deep damage.
(https://i.imgur.com/8DNhZkz.jpg)
The piston pin, however, seems bad. Theres a definite step that can be felt in the middle. It also seems like the small end on the right side wasn't "centered" properly, and there is some odd wear on the side of it. Pistons seem to come with new pins, but I guess the small ends will need replacing too.
(https://i.imgur.com/q2IaUEE.jpg)
The camshaft...follower s? do not seem too bad to me. There's definitely very little play when they are in the holes...
(https://i.imgur.com/ZvHb0vN.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/gb2ahbv.jpg)
I also removed the generator and its bracket.
(https://i.imgur.com/6bjv9zM.jpg)
There's some nasty welding underneath. I hear this was a common problem. Not sure what the best solution would be, but I'm thinking some rib reinforcements at the sides might help a lot. Possibly, some kind of dampening soft aluminium washer between the bracket and the engine would help too. There was a rubber dampener between the generator and the engine on the front, but it was seriously deteriorated. Again, perhaps I'd rather go with some kind of a soft aluminium washer here too, because the more movement it has, the sooner the steel bracket will crack.
(https://i.imgur.com/9XcWFVk.jpg)
Then I opened up the front...
(https://i.imgur.com/pFwN41X.jpg)
Didn't know they used plastic gears, but okay...
(https://i.imgur.com/Cu9Nzd4.jpg)
Couldn't use the average puller tool on the plastic gear, so I just made a simple tool - there are two M5 threads in the sprocket for it. I used some flat ~4-5mm thick steel, drilled two holes, used long M5 screws and nuts, screwed the M5 screws until I could feel them on the other side of the sprocket, then tightened down the flat steel with the nuts (and used some copper between the steel and the shaft, to not damage it). It was on quite tight, but I tapped the centre a little with a hammer, and it fell off.
Sadly, the pump does not look that great. But I am not sure how worn is "too much". The gears have some rust down in the bottom of the teeth.
(https://i.imgur.com/N7uH0Gl.jpg)
The driven gear seems to run quite near the housing, but the "free" gear has much more play. I do not know how much "play" a brand new pump has. There seems to be some rust on both gears.
(https://i.imgur.com/NIDFpzE.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/yL26AHb.jpg)
The oil pump is kind of the basis for good engine running, so I think I'll have to replace it. Is there anything I could measure about it?
HMB seems quite decent. Currently, I'm looking at about 900€ for the cylinders, pistons, and the oil pump, and I expect the shipping, seals and some other stuff will easily take it to 1000€ or over. I'm really afraid of taking the engine further apart.
If I replace the pistons, cylinder, and the oil pump, I presume no damage should occur to these parts, even if the crankshaft is dirty and the plain bearings are bad, and I could restore the crank if it ever becomes a serious problem.
Maybe I will remove the connecting rods too. Then I'd see the condition of the crank, and if the oil pathways aren't blocked. The standard shells do not seem too expensive either (~13€, I guess for one, so 52€ for 4).
EDIT: Forgot to mention. One stud broke off when I was unscrewing it on the right side. It was the first one, so I was really afraid for the others afterwards. They were really tight. I bet someone seriously overtightened it. Is it safe to assume the 850's and possibly even the square fin models had the same studs? I removed the other nuts with a pneumatic gun, I guess the vibrations help a bit...
EDIT2: Someone in Italy is selling brand new cylinders for a bit less than a gilardoni set https://www.subito.it/accessori-moto/v7-special-palermo-275922251.htm. However, no pins, and I don't doubt they're original chromed bores. Still, since they are brand new, they'd probably last quite a while, but I think I'll go for a gilardoni set cause I definitely need piston pins...
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Don't be afraid to open up the engine more .Thisoldtractor is a definite visit for you and you'll find masses of info with photos etc there. The pump body to rotor clearance is what you measure...plus check if the body is scoured.Get yourself a nice bottle of beer, google the site and relax...everything can be sorted !
Whereabouts are you...looks lovely and Alpine !
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Thanks, I'll measure it a bit more tomorrow. I'm from Slovenia (quite close to the geographical centre, it pretty much takes me at most 2 hours to be at anywhere in my country). So yes, I'm right under the Alps.
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I guessed right ! When my rebuild is roadworthy I'm thinking that Slovenia would be a good destination for a ramble...looks glorious !
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I've never seen a plastic pump gear before, not something the factory installed, I don't think.
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nice bike, looking forward to see your progress!
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I've never seen a plastic pump gear before, not something the factory installed, I don't think.
Odd indeed, but I'd be even more surprised if it not a factory part. Why would someone attempt make it? It's quite complex, with a metal centre and some kind of nylon gear riveted to it. Definitely something designed for mass production, not small aftermarket batches... Unless it coincidentally fits from some Fiat (perhaps not even that unlikely), I am sure it must be a factory Guzzi part. There's no wear on the gear either, so I guess it must function fine. To be fair, I'd rather see Guzzi kept the gear driven internals, even with plastic gears. The later chain drives (and their tensioner) were a very common source of engine problems.
Did the early Tonti framed 850T also had gear driven camshaft and oil pump? If those had steel oil pump gears, I'd be a little concerned (either they did not fit them originally, or they caused problems and stopped fitting them).
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Odd indeed, but I'd be even more surprised if it not a factory part. Why would someone attempt make it? It's quite complex, with a metal centre and some kind of nylon gear riveted to it. Definitely something designed for mass production, not small aftermarket batches... Unless it coincidentally fits from some Fiat (perhaps not even that unlikely), I am sure it must be a factory Guzzi part. There's no wear on the gear either, so I guess it must function fine. To be fair, I'd rather see Guzzi kept the gear driven internals, even with plastic gears. The later chain drives (and their tensioner) were a very common source of engine problems.
Did the early Tonti framed 850T also had gear driven camshaft and oil pump? If those had steel oil pump gears, I'd be a little concerned (either they did not fit them originally, or they caused problems and stopped fitting them).
Maybe an aftermarket part for a perceived problem that never really existed. I'd rather take my chances with a timing chain and dodgey tensioner than a plastic gear. If the tensioner doesn't tension, the chain just gets sloppy and rubs on the engine case. If a plastic oil pump gear fails, there's no oil pressure and the engine is likely damaged.
The 850-T never had gears, only chain. The Eldorado with engine no. 58535 onward and V7 Sport with engine no. 33448 onward had timing chains.
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Well, the engine certaintly ran before, and there is no visible wear on the plastic gear, so I probably shouldn't be worried about it. Really odd, since it seems Eldorados still had steel gears. This is a domestic market V7 Special, so perhaps they tried some low volume plastic gear production, or couldn't find reliable suppliers and stayed with metal gears... I guess it is possible that it is aftermarket, but it just seems really unlikely to me.
Finding 83mm cylinders seems to be difficult. Has anyone fitted 82.5mm kits, meant for the V7 Sport? I wouldn't want any vibration problems...
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Well, the engine certaintly ran before, and there is no visible wear on the plastic gear, so I probably shouldn't be worried about it. Really odd, since it seems Eldorados still had steel gears. This is a domestic market V7 Special, so perhaps they tried some low volume plastic gear production, or couldn't find reliable suppliers and stayed with metal gears... I guess it is possible that it is aftermarket, but it just seems really unlikely to me.
Finding 83mm cylinders seems to be difficult. Has anyone fitted 82.5mm kits, meant for the V7 Sport? I wouldn't want any vibration problems...
https://www.stein-dinse.biz/product_info.php?products_id=3974 Out of stock at the moment, likely waiting on Gilardoni to finish the new batch.
In stock now: http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68_129&products_id=2127
Once when Ambassador sets weren't available, I installed V7 Sport sets. The 82.5 Gilardoni (Asso) pistons matched the original 83 mm Guzzi (Mondial) pistons in weight and the engine was very smooth.
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Thanks, then I might just fit those if I can't find 83mm. I doubt there's a huge difference, as I know people fitted 1000cc kits on 850's, sometimes without any major impact on vibrations.
I emailed Stein dinse, but they do not know when they'll get them on stock. I find it really amazing they are available in the US, but hard to find in EU. I also emailed to HMB, I hope they have them, otherwise I'll probably order a 82.5mm set from them, and possibly even their new oil pump (still have to measure the current one, perhaps it is fine).
I understand a little Italian, but so far it seems the specialists in Germany and UK are way better organised/easy to find online, and any new part is way more expensive in Italy (they do have 83mm sets, but at 400€, I rather wait for Stein dinse to get them on stock and spend the excess on a new oil pump...). Hopefully I will order the parts this week, and they arrive next week so I can reassemble it soon.
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I also emailed to HMB, I hope they have them, otherwise I'll probably order a 82.5mm set from them, and possibly even their new oil pump (still have to measure the current one, perhaps it is fine).
I think this set on HMB is 83 mm, it's just a typo on their part:
https://hmb-guzzi.de/Cylinder-Kit-V7-Special
If you've never ordered from them, do be aware that they rarely package the shipment very well. More than one person has received their cylinder kits with broken fins because of the total lack of any cushioning material in the parcel.
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Italian based suppliers here
https://www.officine08.com/?session_id=r3mtt3o6pr2usi2kemdvp4h6s6
https://www.agostinimandello.com/ no experiance with either of them but Agostini have an awesome reputation and are in Mandello for what that's worth !
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Italian based suppliers here
https://www.officine08.com/?session_id=r3mtt3o6pr2usi2kemdvp4h6s6
Thanks for this link, lots of good stuff I've never found other places. Seems they're currently out of cylinder kits as well:
https://www.officine08.com/p10846_cylinder-and-piston-kit-moto-guzzi-v-7-special.html
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I just discovered them a few weeks ago..for once an italien web site that isn't out of the nineties either!
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Try Teo Lammers in Holland for the cylinders, just scored a set of 82.5mm sport cylinders with broken fins for cheap. :boozing: DonG
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Try Teo Lammers in Holland for the cylinders, just scored a set of 82.5mm sport cylinders with broken fins for cheap. :boozing: DonG
4 left in stock
http://shop.tlm.nl/en/cylinder-compl-v7special-130202000010-moto-guzzi
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Thanks for all the help.
I removed the conrods today. They do not seem bad, and the crankshaft holes seem "free". There is one slight step that can be felt. Left big end shells seem *really* nice, like someone already replaced them, while the right side shell was chipped. Not sure what could have caused it, but the journal does not seem damaged. I'll probably try blowing some air through the oil holes, to try and clean or clear it as much as possible this way. However, my micrometer seized, so I'll have to measure the journals properly tomorrow (I think I shouldn't get too excited). If it's fine, perhaps I could polish the journal a little bit, to buff out any steps.
Is it common practice to replace conrod screws on the old V7's? They seem seriously expensive, so I guess I'll stick with the old ones.
I did measure the oil pump as best I could. It's just slightly out of specifications. I still think I'll buy a new one, just to be sure.
I think I forgot to mention that one cylinder head stud broke when I was unscrewing the right side cylinder. Broke right under the nut. I suspect it was overtightened once. I'm glad the engine bottom end threads are fine. Talked to a friend today, and he has spare 850 engines for parts, and will give me one, so at least I have that sorted for now (I just hope the T3 studs are still interchangable, but they probably are...).
Same friend also suggested to search for Fiat 126 parts (Polski Fiat...). He claimed the big end shells are the same. I checked some Fiat 126 manual online, and they do claim exactly the same crank journal diameter (44.013-44.044mm). I wouldn't be surprised if they used the same suppliers. The 126 is the two cylinder version, so the Fiat 500 probably had the same ones too. A set of four costs around 10€ in Poland (seems a single shell for the V7 on HMB costs more).
https://allegro.pl/panewki-korbowodowe-do-samochodu-fiat-126p-cqn-700-i7555925154.html
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Well, I have searched a bit more, and it seems the shells should be the same, as well as a few other parts. I think I'll try my luck and buy a set of Fiat shells first, they seem so cheap that it does not matter if they do not fit.
I have found this Italian Guzzi forum:
http://forum.animaguzzista.com/viewtopic.php?t=23528
There's lots of information about which parts fit from Fiat models, especially for the V7 models - air filters, points, condensers, distributor cap, distributor rotor, ignition switch, they mention Fiat 124 valve springs, starter motor... Though most of these things aren't terribly expensive (and yet, an OEM Fiat part may have much better quality or is the same as an OEM Guzzi part but much easier and cheaper to find, while aftermarket parts may have worse quality).
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Nice bike you got there, I have a v7 Ambassador too, it is 85% restored, but needs the new wiring loom fitted and lots of other small things. You know, the famous last 10%.
I would certainly try and take the rest of the engine apart if it has unknown milage and if it never was cleaned out before. There always seem to be a load of crud in the trap in the crankshaft. See some of Canuck750's rebuild threads for a nice walk through with nice pictures.
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I have measured the crankshaft big end. It ranges from 44.01 to 44.03. Seems to be exactly what it should be, so I am quite happy. I will polish the journal as best I can, new shells, need to make new small ends, fit new cylinder kits, have the heads welded up and then hopefully ride it a lot next year.
The wiring is quite bad too. It sounds like the generator needs new bearings, perhaps also the brushes. I think I'll just make a neat new wiring loom for it, there aren't that many cables anyway. Lots of household wiring solutions on it currently (not sure of the english term, but those screw-connector terminals). I was reading about it a bit in Guzziology, and it seems it would not be a bad idea to add a relay or two to some parts of the system too.
Sadly, HMB did not reply to my email, and I am a bit cautious about making a 1000€ order from a company that won't even reply. So I'll probably order somewhere else. Stein dinse is out of stock (I ordered from them before, so I know they're alright). Gutsibits and TLM are a bit expensive (around 100€ more for both cylinders and oil pump, than from HMB). And yet, 350€ for a cylinder/piston kit does not sound that crazy either, so maybe I'll just order from them...
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You might consider buying the wiring harnesses from Greg Bender, best quality harnesses available anywhere:
http://thisoldtractor.com/for_sale_wiring_harness_loop.html
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Everyone 's on holiday since Friday night and were rushing to finish off as much as possible in the week before.HMB have always replied pretty quickly to me ....their pump is made by them and not the same as the SD one. Several guzzi mechanics I know of here in France will not touch SD repro mechanical stuff.
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Everyone 's on holiday since Friday night and were rushing to finish off as much as possible in the week before.HMB have always replied pretty quickly to me ....their pump is made by them and not the same as the SD one. Several guzzi mechanics I know of here in France will not touch SD repro mechanical stuff.
I wouldn't know why - I buy Stein-Dinse parts through MG Cycle and a few exceptions (speedometer drive, clutch thrust piece) it's all been good quality, equal IMO to the factory parts. Just put one of their oil pumps in my V700 engine rebuild, compared all of the measurements I took from it to those from the HMB pump I put in a customer's bike. Identical. The only difference seems to be the HMB gears are supposedly Nitrided. The one from HMB took nearly two months to arrive! DHL was on strike, blah, blah, blah...
Oh, and any HMB part number with a "Z" on the end is sourced from Stein-Dinse.
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I've had no issues Charlie but they refuse to fit the SD pumps, main bearings or drive box gears and as both of them are as experienced as you in Guzzi if not more so I listened to them when rebuilding mine ....the only replacement I had was the pump though.
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I've had no issues Charlie but they refuse to fit the SD pumps, main bearings or drive box gears and as both of them are as experienced as you in Guzzi if not more so I listened to them when rebuilding mine ....the only replacement I had was the pump though.
Zero issues with any of the main bearings I've bought (approaching a dozen sets) and as I wrote above the pump is nearly identical. <shrug>. At Charlie Cole's advice I've never used any aftermarket rear drive gears from any source.
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Good to know about the mains....I was relieved to find mine still in spec at 160,000 km.The pump was well out though so I put in an HMB one and that gives me over 4 bar at idle when hot which agreeably surprised me !
We had the same stories about dodgy quality with british bike spares in the 80's ....it pays to check carefully and with a qualified eye.
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Well, I finally ordered the parts today. I ordered from HMB, as they did reply to my second email (I used their webpage contact form the first time, and it might not work, because they replied the next day when I contacted them directy on their email address). Ordered two new cylinder kits for the V7 Special (it is listed as 82.5mm, oh well...), their V7 oil pump, new big end shells (guess I won't experiment with Fiat parts for now), and a few seals and service stuff (points, air filter, capacitor...). Time to clean up the engine for the shiny new parts.
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Sounds good, looking forward to the pictures of the rebuild :)
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Parts arrived!
(https://i.imgur.com/vYDEVT3.jpg)
First the good news - I can confirm the "82,5mm" V7 Special cylinders on their webpage are in fact 83mm cylinders.
(https://i.imgur.com/IO80rKb.jpg)
The oil pump also seems to be made well.
Now the sad bit - I must say I am very dissapointed. I ordered 82.5mm V7 700 head gaskets, but specifically added a note to to the order, to check and include correct gaskets for the cylinders I am ordering. The crush ring on the 82.5mm gaskets is way too small to be effective.
(https://i.imgur.com/XIziz9b.jpg)
At 79mm, they are probably slightly small even for the 700 model with 80mm bore. The gaskets were otherwise listed for a 82.5mm bore.
Another thing I noticed - three big end bearings have two small holes, while on has a single large hole - the original ones are like this single one.
(https://i.imgur.com/AuOX7MW.jpg)
What worries me most is that they also have different numbers on them (the three with small holes have 2000, the one with the large hole has 2030). I think the holes do not play a big role, but am worried if they are really all for the same standard size. The original plain bearings had those holes to squirt oil onto the cylinder walls, but I guess this is not needed (with nicasil)? Standard oversizes are 0.2mm, so the 2000 and 2030 are most likely just different part numbers due to different hole pattern.
(https://i.imgur.com/vHO1C4w.jpg)
Also, they only sent me a single rubber timing plug, even though I ordered two. It's just 1.11€ for one, but I am definitely dissapointed!
(https://i.imgur.com/ongcPjz.jpg)
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I'm amazed at the amount of cushioning material in the box! Too bad they can't seem to get the order right though...
Shouldn't you have ordered 83 mm V7 Special/850GT head gaskets, not V700?
You can retain the oil squirter function by just using the two hole shells on the rods and the other two hole and the one hole on the caps. I would measure the thickness of the odd shell to make sure it's the same as the others and using Plastigage to check the clearance wouldn't hurt either.
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They did cushion it, but I must also say there was not much logic in cushioning it this way - they placed the cylinders on the bottom of the box, then used the cushioning material over them - if the box fell, it'd probably damage the cylinders, because the material they used was practically in the middle and top of the box, nothing on the bottom or the sides. Sorry, but I'm quite dissapointed, just seems like they put no effort at all in the order - they forgot one thing and sent wrong gaskets. I order a lot of stuff, but I don't think I ever experienced multiple problems with a single order, and you'd expect they would be a bit more percise on a 1300€+ order.
I'll definitely check the shell thickness. Sadly, I don't know where I'd get plastigage around here, but I do have to take the conrods to a machinist friend who will make new small ends and probably recut my valve seats, and he may have it.
I have ordered 82,5mm gaskets, since they had the cylinders listed as 82,5mm. But like I wrote, I sent them a message that the gaskets need to fit on their cylinders, which they obviously did not read or did not care. Oh well, at least they're cheap at ~5€ each (and since I now have the gaskets, I guess I have a good excuse to buy a V700 to use them on). Most odd to me is that the gaskets that came are not even 82,5mm as they have them listed online, but rather 79mm...
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I must say that I have had similar experiences with them, especially on the packing. My box had lot of cushioning material, but most came from the shop trash bin. Same order also had missing parts.
Also my PHF36 carbs was not setup from the shop as advertised on their website. I didn't bother if they didn't get the correct jet or something, but the slides left and right didn't match! I found out too late and didn't get anything out of complaining.
The quality of the parts I have received haven't been bad, but they should really hire a new guy/girl to pack the orders.
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That's the problem with loose packing. The part may have started out on top, but vibration will cause heavy stuff to settle to the bottom of the box. I see this all the time with people shipping stuff to me, whether on ebay or buying stuff from forum members. It's a common misconception that it's packed properly if the part sits on top of a full box of peanuts.
The way to do it instead is make pillows by putting the packing material in plastic bags. That way the packing can't migrate and allow the part to settle to the bottom of the box.
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Well, I have a short update after a while.
Unfortunately, I have a problem with the plastic oil pump gear. It seems the original pump was modified for the plastic gear to fit (thinking it is from some Fiat car model now...), the second gear shaft and housing were slightly grinded off. The gear interferes with the HMB (or stock) oil pump. I do not want to modify it, so now I am searching for a standard steel oil pump gear. If anyone has any idea where I could find one, it would be a huge help. Can't find them on European ebay, though there are a couple of complete used gear sets in the US for reasonable money - but sadly, the listed postage is higher than the cost of the gears. I've asked if they would consider sending only the oil pump gear in a simple envelope for cheap postage, and I'd still pay the complete price for the set...
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Well, I have a short update after a while.
Unfortunately, I have a problem with the plastic oil pump gear. It seems the original pump was modified for the plastic gear to fit (thinking it is from some Fiat car model now...), the second gear shaft and housing were slightly grinded off. The gear interferes with the HMB (or stock) oil pump. I do not want to modify it, so now I am searching for a standard steel oil pump gear. If anyone has any idea where I could find one, it would be a huge help. Can't find them on European ebay, though there are a couple of complete used gear sets in the US for reasonable money - but sadly, the listed postage is higher than the cost of the gears. I've asked if they would consider sending only the oil pump gear in a simple envelope for cheap postage, and I'd still pay the complete price for the set...
I may have a one that is not part of a set, will have a look tomorrow when I'm back in the shop. Shipping via USPS First Class Package International (the least costly way) is still $24.00 though.
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I have recieved the oil pump gear!
(https://i.imgur.com/9UupCzL.jpg)
Thank you a lot! :bow:
In the meantime, I have also worked on some other interesting projects, like this early 30's Matchless Model X (supposedly the 9.9HP sport model due to the extra chrome) that'll hopefully soon fire up after being dissassembled in the 40's, just before the war:
(https://i.imgur.com/ZVzUbnw.jpg)
All original colour ect... Really cool to me.
My V7 also got some company.
(https://i.imgur.com/7EuNpFC.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ehzwW96.jpg)
It's my friends V700 Police, from 74' or 75'. It's quite interesting to me, seems to me they used various bits from here and there on it. The engine casting is such as on later round fin Tonti models (or the Eldorado). Pistons have a huge dome.
(https://i.imgur.com/OahgnH7.jpg)
I like how neat the single speedo is, though I think it was originally used in some Fiat, with a different face and calibration (possibly the Topolino? seems very familiar but can't quite say).
It had that ridiculous rubber block chain tensioner, and an old chain. Swapped it out for the ~20€ automatic tensioner, definitely looks a lot better and has no play now.
(https://i.imgur.com/gDtbyYo.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3Lblecz.jpg)
Makes me appreciate how great the gears are in my V7!
Had to do something with the monting end for the telephone, it looked odd without anything, so I 3D printed a neat ending. If I had a furnace, I'd even attempt casting it in aluminium, but sadly don't have everything I'd need right now...
(https://i.imgur.com/EVHNUnU.jpg)
Also cleaned and coated both fuel tanks.
(https://i.imgur.com/WwC7xtn.jpg)
Again, interesting to see, my V7 special tank is huge in comparison. Must be some 10cm wider overall. The police V700 had far less fuel inside. They seem the same unless you put them next to eachother.
I cleaned up the chrome (there was lots of rust...). His bike does not look too bad now...
(https://i.imgur.com/HEsjKd6.jpg)
Also retightened one head, and took off the other. The valves are a lot smaller than on the V7 Special, and the bore is smaller. He has the chrome bore, but says it'll be okay... Well, it's his bike. I guess if something goes wrong, it would be cheaper to just swap out the engine for some other round or square fin, and have loads of power and all the updates (like an oil filter) - the bike is not all original anyway.
Then I mounted everything on my V7. Straightened every cover on a big fairly straight surface (glass from some old window and sandpaper), it's amazing how bent everything can get with age and overtightening... I also have new guides in the heads, and I had the broken valve cover screw/tab welded back on, then I tapped the hole and straightened it all on a mill...
(https://i.imgur.com/21067rm.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/KaFZE5J.jpg)
Used hylomar on most gaskets. Also made those foldable tabs for the rocker scews. Don't like the short thread they have, and this allows me to use minimal torque and they'll still never loosen on their own...
(https://i.imgur.com/lcklHWO.jpg)
I also found a good generator bracket. Decided I'll reinforce it anyway, to avoid any problems in the future... I welded about 1cm long tabs on the sides.
(https://i.imgur.com/UW19F8C.jpg)
I think it will help a lot with the common fatigue fractures they had.
(https://i.imgur.com/2Ff42qm.jpg)
It's short enough so that the oil line goes by without a problem. Guess I'll just paint it, not a fan of zinc electroplating anyway (look at it the wrong way and it'll already start to rust...).
(https://i.imgur.com/D6Cygy0.jpg)
I mounted the sump on the engine, as well as the oil pump. For some reason, the oil pump does not turn around smoothly when torqued down, I guess it'll have to wear down the aluminium on the engine a bit. Otherwise, I filled up the sump as much as possible without the front cover, then turned the pump by hand. It only took a few turns, and it squirted out oil on top, so it should be primed and ready for the first fire up...
The oil pump sprocket went on as it should... Seems to be in nice condition too (well, did they ever wear out anyway...?).
(https://i.imgur.com/ufjGyvR.jpg)
As it sits right now:
(https://i.imgur.com/iMTJKrc.jpg)
Still have to torque down the crank nut (that's why I left the wrench on). Couldn't help myself not to use some new stainless screws. They do have a bit of a yellow-ish old tone to them, I think they do not stand out too much, and some of the old screws were quite rusty...
So next up, rebuilding the generator, finishing up the distributor (already mostly rebuilt it, but I have to find the housing O ring somewhere). I'll also open up the starter motor, to clean and lubricate it a bit... And probably lubricate the shaft drive splines and check/possibly rebuild the u-joints. That's most of the "hard" work I still have... Also fit the carbs and the exhausts...
Still have to fit the new springs I got in the distributor advance mechanism, any advice for this?
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Glad the gear made it there safely.
V700s were built up to '78 and used whatever bits were in use at the time on other models, but with the old short stroke crank, smaller bores, valves, etc. Weird how Guzzi did that.
I would have welded on an extension from the generator bracket back to the front distributor bolt. That helps alleviate issues with the bolts holding the bracket to engine case breaking. Those bolts should be replaced with studs anyway as well.
http://thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_distributor_rebuild.html
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Thanks, that article is very helpful.
I also just finished installing the studs in there, and used nylock nuts on top (guess the heat shouldn't be an issue, since Morini used them to secure cylinder heads...).
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Had to do something with the monting end for the telephone, it looked odd without anything, so I 3D printed a neat ending. If I had a furnace, I'd even attempt casting it in aluminium, but sadly don't have everything I'd need right now...
(https://i.imgur.com/EVHNUnU.jpg)
Print up another part 3% larger than the original size (103%) and send it to me. I can cast it up for your this summer. Should be able to get my foundry back up and running by then. Make sure that the print have 1-2% draft or more on all sides so it can be pulled from the sand.
-Ulrik
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That's a beautiful ride! Glad that the rebuild is progressing, though I'm sorry you've had some troubles with it. Such is life, right? Looking forward to more updates!
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Great progress, I really like what you did with the 3D printed piece, brilliant! :thumb:
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Well I got them both back on the road through this weekend! Good news is that everything I've worked on seems to be fine. I'm surprised there is quite a performance difference between my V7 Special and my friends V7 700 Police. My V7 seems way more powerful. I'm also very happy the engines do not leak one bit, and run quite nicely (though the 700 does not want to idle consistently, sometimes it just wants to "die", but I haven't done anything to the distributor yet so I suspect that's the culprit...).
The new air filter rubber (from stein dinse) seems to fit very badly, it likes to curl inwards when the engine is started, so the air bypasses the filter (did not happen on my Special, but it did happen on the 700, might also be the cause of poor idle).
Of course, the ride showed some other problems too... The fuel valves on the 700 are leaking. I did make new seals for my Special, but I checked on Stein Dinse that a new one costs 8.5€, so definitely not worth messing with.
My V7 Special final drive is leaking at the shaft seal when I go a little faster. Not horrible, but notable (goes up the tire...). I want to remove the swingarm to check the u-joint anyway, so that shouldn't take much to replace.
Another major issue I noticed almost immediately on my V7 Special - the front wheel is not "centered". I suspect the bike was crashed, because the rim is not Borrani. I guess someone threw on some new rim and did not mount it properly... Well, I remounted a couple of wheels, so I think I'll manage it (however, I hope I can do it without removing the tire from the wheel). Currently feels like I am riding over horrible potholes constantly.
The brakes on the V7 700 are HORRIBLE! My hand hurts from clutching the front brake. I tried to adjust it, but I'm not expert on these. Possibly, the shoes are smeared with something? Even the rear drum is very bad. Afterwards I went on my Special, and what a difference! The same drums, but the ones on my V7 are extremely effective, no problem completely blocking the wheels at any speed. On the 700 you just hold and pray... Replacement shoes aren't cheap, perhaps I'll just have them relined...
Here are some photos of the V7 700 a few kilometers from my home.
(https://i.imgur.com/BGhxyjp.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/U0meTIO.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/zfC5alg.jpg)
I also have to sort out the cables. Most are too short and routed very oddly (not through the forks...). Does anyone perhaps have any photos of the correct routing (clutch, throttle and speedo...), it would help a lot.
The other thing is the electrical system. The generator does not charge on either bike. I hope I didn't mess up the wiring somehow, but as far as I know there are only two things to connect (on smaller ~4mm screw on top, and probably the main ~M5 "+" terminal at the rear) However, the regulator does not seem too bad. Are there any cheap electronic regulators that would just fit in? I suspect the regulator is the same as on practically any old car (defintely the same as certain Fiats at least).
The other thing is the wiring - it's very old and worn. I think I'll really have to make my own loom (there's just a couple of wires anyway... just have to get some neat tubing, cables and end fittings).
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Looks good everything!
The other thing is the electrical system. The generator does not charge on either bike. I hope I didn't mess up the wiring somehow, but as far as I know there are only two things to connect (on smaller ~4mm screw on top, and probably the main ~M5 "+" terminal at the rear) However, the regulator does not seem too bad. Are there any cheap electronic regulators that would just fit in? I suspect the regulator is the same as on practically any old car (defintely the same as certain Fiats at least).
The other thing is the wiring - it's very old and worn. I think I'll really have to make my own loom (there's just a couple of wires anyway... just have to get some neat tubing, cables and end fittings).
If your bike has the Bosch system an electronic voltage regulator from an old vw beetle should work. They use the same generator/alternator.
-Ulrik
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Sadly, it is the Magneti Marelli generator. The regulators aren't interchangeable between Bosch and Magneti Marelli?
I'm thinking of the Polski Fiat 126p again, it may have had something similar...
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I'm using a solid state regulator designed for a Fiat 126 on my V7 700. Fitted 2 years ago and works fine for me. I wrote about it in my blog https://racingrhino.wordpress.com/2017/03/11/too-many-volts-11-mar-2017/ (https://racingrhino.wordpress.com/2017/03/11/too-many-volts-11-mar-2017/)
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According to Greg Bender they are not interchangeable between the systems, it needs to be either the entire Bosch or Magneti Marelli. I have the Bosch generator and the Magneti Marelli regulator so I need to get me a Bosch regulator instead.
-Ulrik
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That's a nice Matchless Model X you have. Were you able to get her running?
(https://i.ibb.co/fv5kfCZ/ZVzUbnw.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fv5kfCZ)
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We did not start the Matchless yet, but we finally got the correct magneto for it, and we machined the engine cover. Shouldn't be long now.
I've fixed the problems with the front end. Actually got really lucky on a recent swap meet in Italy, and found an original V7 Special rear wheel for very cheap. I've took the front wheel apart, and laced it with the new polished Borrani rim. Looks really neat now, perhaps even a bit too fancy for this bike. Also figured out what the steering stem wobble problem was. The bearings were tightened and seemed fairly new and freshly greased (probably replaced when the bike was crashed), so I only cleaned and regreased them. The play came from the bottom steering stem nut! The huge nylock nut was loosened, so I retightened it with some blue loctite, I think it should hold on now...
Also found a replacement dashboard light (the original one flew out when I took it on the first ride, loosened due to vibrations). The correct blue colour too!
Now I wonder which light means what. This dual instrument V7 Special has 5 lights and no markings... Probably one red for oil, one red for generator, green or red for neutral, blue for high beam, that leaves one light... Perhaps the green one is for "normal" lights, bikes may not have had them on all the time back then, and the neutral is another red light (perhaps this one should be orange but is not original, I have 3 red lights).
Took the final drive apart too, seems to be in good condition, no excessive play... The shaft needs new u-joint crosses, and I'm swapping the bearing in the swingarm. Also replacing the o-ring at the driveshaft, and I've already ordered the final drive seal. I also need new swingarm bearings. I hope I can source the u-joint crosses locally for cheap, I remember one costs 21€ at a local tractor/agriculture shop for the small twins...