Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: SmithSwede on December 24, 2018, 02:32:02 PM
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Went to replace my rear tire. Upon removal a bunch of little black plastic like balls fell out of the cush drive area. Well that’s odd.
After mounting the tire I went to lube the final drive splines. Pulled the drive unit off the swing arm, and the whole thing is filled with orange and black dust that is only slightly sticky. There was nothing resembling grease left on the splines. They were dry, rusty, and severely worn. Had to hammer the mushroom head coupler out of the flat sided coupler. Unfortunately the splined end of the driveshaft/U-joint assembly is also chewed up and a very sloppy fit. So basically these components are shot after 86,000 miles.
I’m pretty surprised by this. I have regularly lubed these splines, every 10,000 mile or so, whenever I change the rear tire. Always used GuardDog 525 moly spline grease, which the BMW guys all say is terrific stuff. Until this time, the grease was always greasy, still on the splines, and the splines always looked absolutely brand new with no discernable wear. Looked to me like they might last forever.
But this time the lube was either a rusty/crusty gritty type of dust, or it was so hardened and caked onto the splines that it was hard to scrape it off even with a sharp screwdriver.
So what the heck happened? Failure of the lube? Or was something mechanically wrong and that caused the lube to turn to dust? I’m pretty sure it’s not water contamination. I’ve had water in the swing arm before I sealed the boot, and it never seemed to affect the grease. No longer get water in there. And yes, all the parts were present and in the right location, like that little spring on the end of the drive shaft.
I would have expected the failure mode of these splines to be slow, gradual and even wear over an extended period of time. Not going from looking brand to totally buggered in 10,000 miles.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v391/SarahDocBrandyBaer/33995DBE-FACB-4214-80EA-3AF573FD7831.jpeg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/SarahDocBrandyBaer/media/33995DBE-FACB-4214-80EA-3AF573FD7831.jpeg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v391/SarahDocBrandyBaer/C1A0D00B-25FE-4AA4-A4E1-2E50CFF4D7AB.jpeg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/SarahDocBrandyBaer/media/C1A0D00B-25FE-4AA4-A4E1-2E50CFF4D7AB.jpeg.html)
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I have nothing. Except maybe you've been a bad boy and this is some sick Santa version of coal
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What's the bike?
Is it possible the cush drive has gone hard and the shock loading did it?
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I use a moly grease Swede and it has never gone hard on me. Smother it every tire change.
Revhead, I think he has a V7 smallblock. If the cush blocks are anything like the Breva they go soft instead of hard.
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Swede's bike is a 2013 V7 , hi-zoot moly grease . At 86K miles I would expect a problem or two .
Dusty
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it is the sb weak link apparently fixed v7/3 and v9
on my 8v sb I caught it just before fail but is obvious will happen again. lubing all we can do replace bits as worn, on mine driveshaft still good, fluke , another few miles it would of gone too or maybe ripped coupler first ?
hope they have it right now v85 cannot afford weak links. this was intended for v35/v50 maybe ok for them, def. oot up to any serious use
factory race ( dakar) sb’s used bb swinging arm and drive box they knew then
merry and happy etc
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It is a contagious disease, now that you have put those pictures on this site, we have all been
exposed to contamination.
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Swede's bike is a 2013 V7 , hi-zoot moly grease . At 86K miles I would expect a problem or two .
Dusty
86k miles is plenty, but I still feel like this spline wear is premature, especially since SmithSwede keeps up on his maintenance.
Perhaps a batch of splines that wasn't sufficiently hardened, or made too hard (so less tough). Open to ideas.
Joe
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Do you clean the splines really well every 10K, and then apply new lube?
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Well, I would not say I cleaned the splines “really well” before re-greasing them. I’d wipe off most of the old lube with a paper towel and then just slather on new grease. I certainly did not use solvent or a toothbrush to clean everything back to bare metal.
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After looking at the uniformity of the failed parts, I would be inclined to think that they are probably case hardened and over time the hardened layer wore down to the softer base metal and then it wouldn't take long to destroy itself. (10,000Miles) Possibly not hardened properly to begin with , I would think with the frequency you lubed them they should still look new or pretty darned close. Really the only way to be sure is to send them to a materials testing lab, but that ain't cheap. My $.02
Paul B :boozing:
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Even if the splines were never lubed this type of failure is really quite unacceptable. Think about car driveshaft splines that literally go 100,000's of miles without servicing. Rarely ever do you hear about this type of failure in the automotive world. We accept far to many substandard manufacturing practices from the motorcycle industry. If Hyundai or Kia can build a relatively reliable car for $10,000 why can't M/C manufacturers build a motorcycle at the same price point with the same reliability.
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I'm kind of leaning in the same direction as Mr Revhead. Could some unwanted slop elsewhere in the drive line have caused excessive wear to the coupling?
John Henry
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I’m liking the theory that the case hardening wore through. The wear is very uniform. I don’t see a piece chipped off or some kind of obvious mechanical damage—just severe wear and rounding over.
Shock loading? Well, the rubber bits in the cush drive and nice and rubbery. And not to brag, but I’m very smooth in up shifting. I don’t normally use the engine to decelerate, instead pull the clutch and use the brakes.
Is there another source of shock loading? Maybe something going bad in final drive?
The clutch was replaced at 65,000, and most of the shock springs on the old clutch were broken because the housing had cracked. On the other hand, the splines still looked new when I put in the clutch.
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I must disagree. The case hardening didn't wear through, because case hardening is not appropriate for this part, and Guzzi never would have used it. They would have "through hardened" the part, but I'm guessing either the alloy or the process wasn't correct and the hardening wasn't properly done.
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Hmmm. Why is case hardening not appropriate? I would think a spline would be a good application for case hardening.
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I have had a couple of good looks at the photos.
The two worn splines have not been very deeply engaged.
From memory without the parts in my hand to work it out properly I think you need to check that you have assembled the parts in the right order.
From memory there is a spring that should hold that side of the coupling together.
If the circlip in the coupling is on the wrong side of the disc the spring won’t hold it together.
The parts drawings are not very clear how it fits together.
The whole coupler seems to be a bit of a wearing replacement part.
A weak link to protect the drive box?
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Yes. The wear only extends half way down the coupling. It was like it was frozen and could not freely move.
But I’m quite confident it was assembled correctly. Maybe spring weakened?
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Where is Pete Roper on this?
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In the top picture the circlip looks polished on the back side.
For it to be polished by contact with the rear part of the drive box coupler it would need to be engaged deeply as the spring would encourage it to do.
Just from memory the disc sits on the front side of the circlip.
If the disc was fitted on the rear side of the circlip the spring would be ineffective in holding the coupler firmly engaged on the rear join.
The spring in the end of the driveshaft pushes on the disc, the disc pushes on the circlip and that holds the coupler back onto the part in the lower picture.
If the only wear you can see is between the rear of the coupler and the spline that slides onto the drive then just replace those bits.
I would say that the coupler has had a fair lifespan .
As long as the front end is good along with the driveshaft replace the 2 bits, slap it full of grease and ride.
Cheers, voncrump.
(https://i.ibb.co/6nHCtpV/C88-C2209-D77-E-4534-AFB7-CE5-C0-C6-AC014.png) (https://ibb.co/6nHCtpV)
This diagram is not a good guide because it shows things in the wrong position.
I feel the circlip and the disc should be shown at the front of the coupler.
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[This diagram is not a good guide because it shows things in the wrong position.quote]
Luigi was promoted to engineering for a while, but eventually demoted back to not greasing bearings on the production line. .
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Yes, I assemble it so the disc sits in front of the circlip—the disc is closer to the front wheel, and the circlip is behind it. So the spring bears on the disc, which cannot move past the circlip. Thus the spring tends to push the rest of the assembly back towards the final drive. If you did it the other way, the spring would be pushing the disc up and down the coupler on the back side of the circlip, which doesn’t seem logical.
If that’s wrong somebody sing out.
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Yes, I assemble it so the disc sits in front of the circlip—the disc is closer to the front wheel, and the circlip is behind it. So the spring bears on the disc, which cannot move past the circlip. Thus the spring tends to push the rest of the assembly back towards the final drive. If you did it the other way, the spring would be pushing the disc up and down the coupler on the back side of the circlip, which doesn’t seem logical.
If that’s wrong somebody sing out.
You have it right!! Parts wear out. There IS a reason it is changed on the V9, more poop=more wear.
In the top picture the circlip looks polished on the back side.
For it to be polished by contact with the rear part of the drive box coupler it would need to be engaged deeply as the spring would encourage it to do.
Just from memory the disc sits on the front side of the circlip.
If the disc was fitted on the rear side of the circlip the spring would be ineffective in holding the coupler firmly engaged on the rear join.
The spring in the end of the driveshaft pushes on the disc, the disc pushes on the circlip and that holds the coupler back onto the part in the lower picture.
If the only wear you can see is between the rear of the coupler and the spline that slides onto the drive then just replace those bits.
I would say that the coupler has had a fair lifespan .
As long as the front end is good along with the driveshaft replace the 2 bits, slap it full of grease and ride.
Cheers, voncrump.
(https://i.ibb.co/6nHCtpV/C88-C2209-D77-E-4534-AFB7-CE5-C0-C6-AC014.png) (https://ibb.co/6nHCtpV)
This diagram is not a good guide because it shows things in the wrong position.
I feel the circlip and the disc should be shown at the front of the coupler.
The diagram is the same in the service manual from 1981, Luigi has not changed his ways!!
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The reason for totally cleaning the splines is to remove any grit developed since the last cleaning. The grease holds it in suspension, and turns into a grinding paste. So yes, it's important to totally clean splines down to clean shiny metal and then add grease - with moly in this application.
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Thanks wirespokes, I had never considered that. Since I never did clean it down to the bare metal as you recommend, I am now wondering if the actual spline contact areas were filled with old dried up grease and metal wear particles. Which I simply covered over with a new slathering of grease. So it looked well lubed, but maybe not so much in reality.
Some of the grease that was actually in the splines was hard as a rock. Hard enough that it was difficult to chip out with a sharp screwdriver.
New parts en route. I’ll clean them good in the future.
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Trying not derail the thread :P
But if that spring (4), disk(3) and rear circlip (12) is at the wrong spot in respect to the cylindrical coupler (5) ,how would they go in together?
(https://i.ibb.co/NSbD3Zz/F02-A858-C-588-E-4059-965-A-D017-B0-A7717-D.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NSbD3Zz)
Like this or am I smoking something?
I didn't take Rear bevel off last time myself when having the rear tire change...so...ya... lol
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(https://www.wurthusa.com/medias/0890401000NEW.jpg-515Wx515H?context=bWFzdGVyfGltYWdlc3wxNzg0MnxpbWFnZS9qcGVnfGltYWdlcy9oZjYvaDA2Lzg4MTM2NTcyOTI4MzAuanBnfDJlMDNiNzMzOWMwMDQwMzRhZTI5YTgzMWM0ODZiYjUxZjcyOWRiNjQ4YmY3ZTkxN2Q3MjhmOTRjN2Y3OTEzYWM)
In new color appropriate packaging. :wink:
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My particular favorite:
(https://www.hondashop.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Molypaste-3-4-cc.jpg)
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My particular favorite:
(https://www.hondashop.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Molypaste-3-4-cc.jpg)
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Never had much luck with it. Pounds out, flings off, splines left dry as dust.
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Just got off the phone w/Karl W, his V7 II has over 100K mi on it and never any lube on splines, my Cal2 has 130K mi pulls a sidecar over 100k mi and no lube on splines. I think it's all BS!!! No one here worked on farm machinery, if you lube stuff it collects dust and wears faster.
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Holy Cow. Karl W is unstoppable! I remember when he got the V7.
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Just got off the phone w/Karl W, his V7 II has over 100K mi on it and never any lube on splines, my Cal2 has 130K mi pulls a sidecar over 100k mi and no lube on splines. I think it's all BS!!! No one here worked on farm machinery, if you lube stuff it collects dust and wears faster.
I'm in this camp. And for gawd's sake, it's NOT IN THE MAINTENANCE SCHEDULE.... And OEM's tend to be really anal-retentive about their schedules.
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Never had much luck with it. Pounds out, flings off, splines left dry as dust.
Oddly, not my experience. Different environment? The grease likes me & doesn't like you?
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My theory is that the grease keeps water out of the joint and therefore keeps the splines from rusting. I think it’s the rust particles that create the abrasive dust that wears the splines.
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My head is about to explode. I thought Wurth Sig 3000 was the best solution out there. Now we have some saying to use no lube at all? I would think by now we would have enough experience collectively to decide this, but here come 100,000-mile examples of success without any lube. Dirt is the abrasive. Rust is the abrasive. Grease is the solution. Grease is the problem.
Makes me wish for a simple chain drive.
Moto
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A grease thread is perilously close to an oil thread.
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Grease and oil are great until contaminated, then all bets are off. Running any spline without corrosion protection is recipe for disaster in a potentially damp environment. Spline to coupling fit/ tolerance is of upmost importance for longevity. Wear rate is exponential as fit tolerance slowly increases over time. A common problem with pto shafts. Periodic cleaning, inspection and lubing is the proper approach. Replace parts when wear becomes evident, before catastrophic failure comes knocking. Seems as though SS has done everything right , but eventually these thing do wear out just like us.
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Just got off the phone w/Karl W, his V7 II has over 100K mi on it and never any lube on splines, my Cal2 has 130K mi pulls a sidecar over 100k mi and no lube on splines. I think it's all BS!!! No one here worked on farm machinery, if you lube stuff it collects dust and wears faster.
Very valid point Steve! I had a 60s model New Holland bailer that made 10s of thousands of bails of hay and the torque on the driveline splines are tremendous, without hardly any noticeable wear. I think these type issues are simply crappy material that when it wears to a point the tolerances become a major factor to quicker failure as in this case.
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You don't use any lube on the chains of a corn picker or combine only the shaft bearings. Same w/an elevator.
Small Block drive was designed for 350-500 originally and not too many made it to 100K mi, just the nature of the beast. Now it's all been improved but only recently the drive. I think maybe the parts just wore out.
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You don't use any lube on the chains of a corn picker or combine only the shaft bearings. Same w/an elevator.
Small Block drive was designed for 350-500 originally and not too many made it to 100K mi, just the nature of the beast. Now it's all been improved but only recently the drive. I think maybe the parts just wore out.
I did oil the chain drive on the Bailer every season as well as clean and regrease the threading and knot tying components every cutting or it woukd not tie the knots proper and bales would spit out broken
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Interesting discussion... Some folks get huge mileage out of their splines with zero lubricant, others ,they wear out quickly with lube present. I personally have been using the Wurth 3000 for about 3-4 years now, and its like glue, stays where you put it, but considering the different results that occur, could it be a mis alignment of the swingarm flange causing a "wobble" and thus wear in the splines, like someone here suggested in the past on the big blocks? Or is this a completely different animal?
Rick.
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Hard to have smallblock misaligned, swingarm is against one side of trans mount w/spacer in between and snugged up.
A big block w/enclosed swingarm is supposed to be lubed by oil vapor from rear drive, some over fill it so this happens.
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Never had much luck with it. Pounds out, flings off, splines left dry as dust.
Then I don't think you had the genuine stuff. Its such a fine stticky paste (paste, not gel like grease) it can't fling off.
Everything I've used it on has stayed wet and lubed. Use on the splines of all my bikes. paint it on with a brush
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Then I don't think you had the genuine stuff. Its such a fine stticky paste (paste, not gel like grease) it can't fling off.
Everything I've used it on has stayed wet and lubed. Use on the splines of all my bikes. paint it on with a brush
I'm with Charlie. I tried Honda moly on the drive splines of my CNC mill, and it was gone shortly.
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Are you sure it was gone? Or just spread itself to a thin paste, like it's supposed to? It isn't grease, it won't sit there in big sticky gobs. It smoothed itself all over the surface coating it thoroughly. It is after all meant to lubricate close fitting high pressure areas.
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Then I don't think you had the genuine stuff. Its such a fine stticky paste (paste, not gel like grease) it can't fling off.
Everything I've used it on has stayed wet and lubed. Use on the splines of all my bikes. paint it on with a brush
How could I not get the "genuine stuff" when I bought it at a Honda dealer? Whatever works for you. It didn't for me and I moved on to something that does.
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The irony of this argument is that some say you don't need spline lube at all, and other say it's all about which lube you use.
I think the issue wasn't the lube at all, but a sub-standard heat treatment that left the gear softer than required. This issue was found on previous transmission gears so seeing it on the splines isn't abnormal.
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How could I not get the "genuine stuff" when I bought it at a Honda dealer? Whatever works for you. It didn't for me and I moved on to something that does.
Who knows what's being faked today... Just had a chat to a trailer builder mate who had to return an entire shipment of NSK bearings. Weren't genuine NSK, despite all correct packaging and serial numbers.
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Who knows what's being faked today... Just had a chat to a trailer builder mate who had to return an entire shipment of NSK bearings. Weren't genuine NSK, despite all correct packaging and serial numbers.
It's been ten years ago since I bought that tube of Honda Moly 60 Paste at Twigg Cycles in Hagerstown, MD. I have no doubt it was the genuine stuff, faking stuff wasn't even a thing back then.
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I thoughly clean the splines then coat them with dry film moly, Then I use Wurth on top of that. I have had good luck with doing it like that https://www.bing.com/shop?q=molybdenum+disulfide+dry+film+lubricant&FORM=QSRE1
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I thoughly clean the splines then coat them with dry film moly, Then I use Wurth on top of that. I have had good luck with doing it like that https://www.bing.com/shop?q=molybdenum+disulfide+dry+film+lubricant&FORM=QSRE1
Perfect! You not only have two types of lubricant, you have the unlubricated splines underneath! A grand slam!
Moto
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Over here in Minnesota it would be a Hat Trick..
My kid 7 years ago advancing his team to the state tournament,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsuFrWUJcZY
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Perfect! You not only have two types of lubricant, you have the unlubricated splines underneath! A grand slam!
Moto
Are you confused?
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Are you confused?
Yes. But let me start again after a couple single malts and I'll see if that makes it seem less so.
I'm thinking an artisanal concoction comprised of something like 1/3 boat trailer wheel bearing grease, 1/3 Honda #60 & 1/3 alcoholic tincture of laudanum.
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Yes. But let me start again after a couple single malts and I'll see if that makes it seem less so.
I'm thinking an artisanal concoction comprised of something like 1/3 boat trailer wheel bearing grease, 1/3 Honda #60 & 1/3 alcoholic tincture of laudanum.
Thats hilarious!
Rick.
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OK folks, what about the elephant in the room.
The couplers were not correctly engaged.
That’s what I get from looking at the photos.
Coat them with whatever you want but if half the rear spline is hanging out of engagement with the front then that is going to cause a problem.
Correct me if I’m wrong.
Cheers, voncrump.
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I see exactly what you mean Voncrump. And I agree, can clearly see it's only half been engaged and that's probably the main cause.
I won't claim to be familiar with this model, but it does suggest something in the wrong place, or around the wrong way. Is there the possibility of old grease caking up preventing something sliding home?
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Im by means an expert on the subject or engineer, just relying on common sense and past experiences, I'm about to come to the thinking that the reason for putting any type or amount of grease on splines is to allow them to be removed without having to use a hammer and pry tool. I'm not sure but I don't think the design tolerances of spline fit includes the application of heavy grease. If so, once the grease squeezes out there is a looser fit which encourages much faster wear.
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Im by means an expert on the subject or engineer, just relying on common sense and past experiences, I'm about to come to the thinking that the reason for putting any type or amount of grease on splines is to allow them to be removed without having to use a hammer and pry tool. I'm not sure but I don't think the design tolerances of spline fit includes the application of heavy grease. If so, once the grease squeezes out there is a looser fit which encourages much faster wear.
But this would only make sense if application of heavy grease could spread the splines apart, which it couldn't, the way it would normally be applied.
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This is all interesting.....My point of view is that if special lube is needed then perhaps the engineering and or material is not all it can be.. My viewpoint is from extensive 4x4 experience. Driveshaft splines do wear out.. they slide in and out constantly in response to suspension travel and many designs are more or less exposed to the environment..But most do last 100,000 miles in normal service ,some much longer..All of then are lubed by tranny lube or by grease ...None run dry to my knowledge...
What do other shaft drive bikes have? Are they a problem...Seems to me from of these shaft problems or the maintenance of pulling the shaft are more of a nuisance than the use of an O ring chain... :evil:
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This is all interesting.....My point of view is that if special lube is needed then perhaps the engineering and or material is not all it can be.. My viewpoint is from extensive 4x4 experience. Driveshaft splines do wear out.. they slide in and out constantly in response to suspension travel and many designs are more or less exposed to the environment..But most do last 100,000 miles in normal service ,some much longer..All of then are lubed by tranny lube or by grease ...None run dry to my knowledge...
What do other shaft drive bikes have? Are they a problem...Seems to me from of these shaft problems or the maintenance of pulling the shaft are more of a nuisance than the use of an O ring chain... :evil:
The BMW K bikes have a REAL bad issue with splines... that being said, I rode Suzuki GS G shaft bikes for years and never had the shaft apart, or heard of anyone having issues...
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How did all the Guzzi's w/300k mi on them(Karl had 2) or all the older riders like Ken have multiple bikes w/100's of thousand mi on them do this w/o greasing the splines? IT's all BS brought on by BMW guys riding Guzzi's. Guzzi's are NOT BMW's or Hondas. They have a weak link engineered in the drive and that is the coupler and that is what failed. SmallBlocks have a ball shaped spline piece on both ends of the coupler because of only 1 cross on the ujoint and it's engineered to fail. The little balls & little splines will only go so long. Don't believe me? where are all the smallblocks w/all the miles--- there aren't any!
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Steve - are you saying Guzzi splines should run without lube? Just trying to clarify.
I've been around airheads since 1990, so have some data on splines and lube issues.
I think the BMW guys who had spline trouble (other than the early Ks) over-lubed the splines and ran into trouble because of that. Now and then trans input splines would wear out, but think that was due to over-lubing leading to the creation of grinding paste. That sort of failure is pretty rare.
Generally, the airhead final drive splines tend to last 100K or more. I think one of the causes of early failure is wheel bearing issues causing the splines to work against each other. Another is corrosion, which as you know, is very abrasive and wears the mating surface. And yes, chain technology has improved enough over the years to now make the cost of chain vs shaft comparable. So it comes down to which you prefer rather than cost or maintenance.
The clutch splines are different since there's a sliding movement. But even in autos and heavy equipment, the splines are supposed to be lubed (even though very thinly) to prevent rust and help with the metal/metal contact rubbing forces.
Final drive splines benefit from lube to help prevent corrosion.
I've never owned a K bike, but do know the early ones had driveshaft spline issues. No idea what the problem was with them.
On the airheads, the final drive spline on the ring gear is what wears. It's an expensive repair requiring dismantling the final drive and sending off the ring gear to a place like Hansen's in Medford Or, where a new spline is welded in, or the splines are built up and re-machined. Not sure which. With the Guzzis, the male spline is in the wheel and easily replaced. Both the BMW and the Guzzi male splines wear, and from my own experience, the female side wears very slowly. I've been told it's the same with the Guzzis.
As for Guzzis going 300K without lube (are we talking driveline splines?) I'm really curious if that's true.
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That's exactly what I'm saying. The only lube I have seen from factory is on the wheel hub that goes into final drive. I worked on BMW's for years and airheads run oil in driveshaft tube. I've been riding & working on them(Guzzi's) since 76 and going to rallies since 80, working in dealerships since 88 and never heard of lubing the stuff anywhere. The ones that wear alot are from too much torque applied. I have twisted splines right off on my LM3. On enclosed BigBlocks the oil from rear drive (mostly vapor) comes out and travels up the shaft, there is a cutout in the pinion housing for this to happen. On smallblocks it's dry and only lasts so long, maybe 100K mi. years ago cause that's all they would go.
I think Swede's just wore through the hardened area.
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Thanks for the explanation, Steve! So it's not that the splines aren't lubed, because they are, it's that they need no outside attention. Kind of like cars with the driveline exiting the transmission where they're lubricated.
What are your thoughts on Swede's wearing out only half the teeth? Seems that would be part of the issue.
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What you see wore is all that touches. Look at the parts, it's 2 balls w/splines in a strait coupler. I always thought it was light duty stuff, I shredded a set in 2 months on a V65TT.
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How did all the Guzzi's w/300k mi on them(Karl had 2) or all the older riders like Ken have multiple bikes w/100's of thousand mi on them do this w/o greasing the splines? IT's all BS brought on by BMW guys riding Guzzi's. Guzzi's are NOT BMW's or Hondas. They have a weak link engineered in the drive and that is the coupler and that is what failed. SmallBlocks have a ball shaped spline piece on both ends of the coupler because of only 1 cross on the ujoint and it's engineered to fail. The little balls & little splines will only go so long. Don't believe me? where are all the smallblocks w/all the miles--- there aren't any!
Using one u joint on a drive shaft causes velocity changes as the shaft rotates, this is why auto driveshaft use two U joints, it's why the Guzzi big block uses two u joints.Two joints cancels the velocity change..A CV joint also has no velocity changes...There a a few vintage torque tube cars/trucks using one u joint with a sliding spline submerged in oil....
Interesting short demonstration of driveshaft U joint velocity......You can learn something by tearing out driveshafts on off road trucks.... :grin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmV4qwLfOMY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmV4qwLfOMY)
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New parts en route. I’ll clean them good in the future.
Cost for these parts?
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The V9 uses a single cross Ujoint on each end of the driveshaft.
Price is $121.00 for the pinion ball & sleeve, this not bad for the mileage it went.
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The V9 uses a single cross Ujoint on each end of the driveshaft.
Price is $121.00 for the pinion ball & sleeve, this not bad for the mileage it went.
Nope, not bad at all.
Not that it is the same but on a Ducati, how much money would be spent at a dealer for valve adjustments at the same mileage?
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Nope, not bad at all.
Not that it is the same but on a Ducati, how much money would be spent at a dealer for valve adjustments at the same mileage?
A conservative $500/service (valves only, not even counting timing belts) every 7500-15,000 miles depending on the model.
So what was the mileage on this, around 80k? that's 5.33-10.66 times - or $2500-5000. On the high end, nearly enough for an entire new Guzzi smallblock bike, and the low end, nearly enough for an entire used Guzzi smallblock.
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How much does top of the line o-ring chain cost?
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I am replacing all the suspect parts because I rely on this bike for daily transportion, including work and out of state trips. I probably could have eaked out several more thousands of miles by being gentle, but it is not worth the risk of total failure.
The output splines on the transmission and input splines on the final drive look fine. So I’m just replacing the U-joint drive shaft, the flat sided coupler, and the mushroom headed coupler. Total of $316.44 in parts for 86,000 miles of service. Call that $3.68 per thousand miles.
I run several chain drive bikes. No matter what I do in terms of maintenance, good quality X-ring chains are always worn out after 15,000 to 18,000 miles, at least in my hands.
Figure a good X ring chain is $85 per 18,000 miles. Figure new front and rear sprocket every 36,000 miles at $50 a set. Looks like running a chain would be about $6.10 per 1,000 miles.
So over this distance, a shaft drive has saved me about $208.12 (6.10 - 3.68 X 86).
So I’m ahead, but not by all that much. The shaft doesn’t create an oil mess during normal operation, I don’t have to lube it constantly or worry about it in the rain. On the other hand, the shaft system did fail me unexpectedly, and I’m not taking a Guzzi trip over the holidays as I had planned. In contrast, chain would have given me a lot of warning of its impending death.
Of course, I’m not figuring the expense of repairing or rebuilding the final drive. I suspect that when you factor in the eventual cost or repairing or rebuiding the final drive unit, the savings of using a shaft drive system disappear.
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I have an SP III on the lift right now for service. At 11,000 miles the drive shaft splines don’t show appreciable wear, but the splines do show spots of corrosion. There was rust on the shaft between the splines as well, and there the shaft shows noticeable pitting.
How water gets in there, I don’t know. The rubber boot was in good shape and tight on the flanges. Whatever the need for lubrication on these splines, it seems to me that a spline lube is necessary to keep water (and therefore rust) out of the splines.
As a side note, I don’t think the rear drive assembly on this bike has ever been apart. There’s old grease on all of the splines - both on the driveshaft and the wheel/hub assembly. Looks like factory stuff to me.
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A conservative $500/service (valves only, not even counting timing belts) every 7500-15,000 miles depending on the model.
So what was the mileage on this, around 80k? that's 5.33-10.66 times - or $2500-5000. On the high end, nearly enough for an entire new Guzzi smallblock bike, and the low end, nearly enough for an entire used Guzzi smallblock.
On a performance level, the V7 is not really comparable to an equal displacement Ducati.If the Ducati owner does his own maintenance then it's maybe 500 bucks but still a lot of hours work.. .However, 80 some odd thousand miles on a 140 bucks worth of parts that the owner can replace is pretty respectable....I can't imagine any Japanese machine doing any better...
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How much does top of the line o-ring chain cost?
More on top of the valve alignments.
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Who gives a crap? I like shafts and belts to spread out the work, set and forget for a long, long time.
There was a time when, if I had a chain, I'd be cleaning and waxing it weekly and replacing it annually, f that.
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On a performance level, the V7 is not really comparable to an equal displacement Ducati.If the Ducati owner does his own maintenance then it's maybe 500 bucks but still a lot of hours work.. .However, 80 some odd thousand miles on a 140 bucks worth of parts that the owner can replace is pretty respectable....I can't imagine any Japanese machine doing any better...
I think we're saying the same thing...
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I’m not sure how Ducati maintenance got into the mix here, but it’s ironic because I recently bought an old 2 valve Ducati on Dusty’s recommendation for a commuter bike. I plan to ride it a lot.
I recently ordered cam belts which were $88 for a pair. Supposed to replace them every 10,000 miles. I’ll do the valve adjustments myself. So I don’t think maintenance will be that bad.
Guess I’ll find out soon enough.
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How water gets in there, I don’t know. The rubber boot was in good shape and tight on the flanges. Whatever the need for lubrication on these splines, it seems to me that a spline lube is necessary to keep water (and therefore rust) out of the splines.
Condensation, unless totally airtight.
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Being a relatively recent Guzzi convert ( pun intended ) and having my first small block I was quite shocked to see the amount of wear in the splined coupling in the OP's pics.
However knowing the pinion splines and the transmission output shaft splines are OK and the carnage is confined to a ( relatively ) inexpensive coupling which is not a big deal to replace I'm once again sleeping soundly.
There is even a possibility that the coupling is designed to be somewhat sacrificial in nature.
Cheers and best wishes for 2019
Glenn
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I’m not sure how Ducati maintenance got into the mix here, but it’s ironic because I recently bought an old 2 valve Ducati on Dusty’s recommendation for a commuter bike. I plan to ride it a lot.
I recently ordered cam belts which were $88 for a pair. Supposed to replace them every 10,000 miles. I’ll do the valve adjustments myself. So I don’t think maintenance will be that bad.
Guess I’ll find out soon enough.
I've owned the same beast and belt changes are easy. Do the tension properly (lots of tricks available so no special tools required...) and they will last. You'll adjust the valves once (assuming it wasn't done properly before), and that will be it. My 900 cost very little in terms of maintenance - and I also tracked it. Sorry for the off-topic post
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Condensation, unless totally airtight.
And only being ridden 11K miles in 25yrs.
My old SP3, I sold after 2 yrs to pay some taxes. Bought it new and it had 40K mi on it w/sold AND it went another 60K mi before he traded it off on a Norge, no lube on the splines.
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So it doesn't matter, grease ,no grease. They eventually wear out. I do know lugging the engine hammers them. After thirty plus years as an aviation mechanic seeing the care that is taken to lube shaft splines, especially accessory gearbox splined shafts that are not internal to an engine , I'll lube mine at tire changes. I have grease to use up....
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Certainly agree about lugging putting a lot of stress on these components. However, I’m not a lugger, I’m a spinner. I run it between 4000 and 6000 rpm. Heavy throttle for passing is at 5,000 rpm or above.
Heck, I don’t even use engine to decelerate. I clutch in and let the brakes do their job.
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As an owner of a 2014 V7 Stone this thread is very worrying. My current mileage on this bike is 7000 in 4 years, so will MG be honouring warranty claims if my drive fails in....oh about 2063?
I also work on aircraft and will keep lubing mine at each tyre change - and cleaning the splines out so the lube is new and fresh. Just adding lube is not the way.
It is good to see pilots like SmithSwede doing the miles and (unfortunately) discovering what fails. It would be interesting to know what other failures he has had and at what mileage?
I have been very happy with the build quality and mechanics of my V7, but I do probably over maintain it
AndyB
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Certainly agree about lugging putting a lot of stress on these components. However, I’m not a lugger, I’m a spinner. I run it between 4000 and 6000 rpm. Heavy throttle for passing is at 5,000 rpm or above.
Heck, I don’t even use engine to decelerate. I clutch in and let the brakes do their job.
Perfect!!! :thumb: