Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: yogidozer on December 26, 2018, 05:45:48 AM
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Given a choice to buy a brand new MG with the options of.....
Fuel injection & computer (wi-fi and Starbucks locator as an option)
Or
Carbs. and point ignition.
Which would you choose?
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Of course, the modern one, albeit I am not interested in Starbucks.
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Of course, the modern one, albeit I am not interested in Starbucks.
That's what the wi-fi is for.. When your bike dies, and you can't fix it on the spot, use the wi-fi to locate the nearest coffee hole, til the wrecker gets there. 🤣
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I am a dinosaur...
So you already know the answer :grin:
Actually I would choose carbs and elec. ignition.
Regarding coffee I prefer Gas station coffee ah ah
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Since it's been around for 20 years in Guzzis, I'll take the fuel injection and coffee black leftover in the coffee cup from yesterday.
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Given a choice to buy a brand new MG with the options of.....
Fuel injection & computer (wi-fi and Starbucks locator as an option)
Or
Carbs. and point ignition.
Which would you choose?
The *new* V85TT (...hold the Wi-Fi and Starbucks locator, please!) :laugh: :grin: :wink:
(https://i.ibb.co/T2nv32W/Screen-Shot-2018-12-26-at-6-33-30-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/T2nv32W)
NOTE: ...and I will keep my 20-year old '98 Centauro GT :cool: :thumb: :smiley:
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Have made my choice. Carbs and electronic ignition. Yep, I'm a dinosaur, too. I understand carburetors, I don't know anything about motorcycle fuel injection systems.
Larry
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Definitely fuel injection.
I'm likely to be very tempted by the more road-oriented sport model of the V85 when it comes out.
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Carbs & points, It'll be the only thing running after the large sunburst happens.
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I am a dinosaur...
So you already know the answer :grin:
Actually I would choose carbs and elec. ignition.
Regarding coffee I prefer Gas station coffee ah ah
I'm with ya on that!
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No computer in my bike!!!!
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Can we have carbs and electronic (no points) ignition? :grin: I might go that route ... eliminate a lot of sensors that can fail, and I don't have to go back to filing points. :grin:
I really don't like the new trend of throwing more and more electronics on a bike. ABS is kind of nice though. Traction control I can see if your bike makes 130+ HP.
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I 've already made that choice. The Mighty Scura has simple electronics, no stupid "immonilizer" antenna and all hat other crap to fail. It's as reliable as a hammer.
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Another “what if” question. Could we make points and carbs be better than they used to be with modern technology?
For example, we now routinely make spark plugs with exotic metals that resist electrostatic erosion much better. What if we made points out of that metal so they lasted 100,000 miles.
Maybe precision CNC machines, and improved gasket materials, could create better carbs.
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Is it acceptable to like both old a new tech ? After all , old tech was once new , and what we consider new tech will become old .
Dusty
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Is it acceptable to like both old a new tech ? After all , old tech was once new , and what we consider new tech will become old .
Dusty
Look at all the post with FI or computer problems. Nuff said. :rolleyes:
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My preference is fuel injection and ECU that have no functional connections to the dash or the ignition switch. If the bike can be started when the dashboard/instruments are removed and the ignition switch is hotwired, I'm satisfied. (My Italjet qualifies, but not my Griso.)
Moto
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Look at all the post with FI or computer problems. Nuff said. :rolleyes:
or
It isn't like we don't hear about carburetors giving people fits , or failing condensors , or issues getting an old bike (pun intended) timed correctly .
Dusty
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Points can last a very long time when they're passing micro amps with the use of an amplifier. Still, if you're going to go with electronic ignition, why not eliminate the points entirely?
I'm not a fan of computers and electronics on bikes, so guess my answer. Nice when it works, but can leave you dead in the water with a long wait for an expensive tow and a longer wait at the shop. I'd rather have something I can fix myself.
And all those electronics that 'help' make for a better ride? No thanks. I'd rather keep track of my gas with a trip meter and petcocks with reserve handles, rather than a low fuel warning light. I like interacting with my bike - things like the special procedure firing it up when it's cold, making sure the side stand is up, paying attention to traction and all those other things a rider needs to do.
Yeah, 70s and 80s technology was once new, but that's not really the argument - it's rider interaction and whether the new technology is actually necessary. Does it really enhance the experience? If we could legally ride 150 mph, then maybe it would all be necessary - ABS, traction control, engine management and all the rest. But at half that speed, the old tech and simpler machines do just fine at a fraction of the cost and only slightly more maintenance. I've heard too many horror stories of newer bikes with extremely difficult issues to repair or diagnose even with the shop's computer. No thanks, I prefer simple.
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or
It isn't like we don't hear about carburetors giving people fits , or failing condensors , or issues getting an old bike (pun intended) timed correctly .
Dusty
Yeah, those are serious problems.
(https://i.ibb.co/hV70x3H/sheldon.png) (https://ibb.co/hV70x3H)
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Spare points and condensers take up a TON of room in the saddle bags, don't they? :rolleyes:
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While the old Jackal isn't *new* tech by any stretch , it is injected and computer controlled and other than a broken wire hasn't failed to run in 150K miles . Seriously , I don't really miss sticking floats filling a crankcase full of gasoline , or fiddling with a 6 CA dual points system on a 1968 Triumph , or the ridiculous old BMW design where the points are behind the points cam/bob weight assembly . Remember those ? The experience of owning an old motorbike is wonderful in short bursts , everyone should own a loop , or a vintage BSA , but the idea they are somehow simpler is silly , ever tried to keep all of the spacers required to assemble a 60's Triumph rear wheel in their correct order ? :laugh:
Dusty
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I had the best dad in the world, followed him around everywhere, never needed to ask me to help.
Dig a ditch, mow the lawn, go fly fishing, I was happy to be with him.
I sat on the fender of his 50's Chevy pick up, learning to set valves.
I could change points/condensers before I started school.
I'm no smarter than average, anyone can install points.
Same deal cleaning a carb. Goes back together the same way you took it apart.
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I 've already made that choice.
Come to that, every single ONE of us has already made that choice!
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I had the best dad in the world, followed him around everywhere, never needed to ask me to help.
Dig a ditch, mow the lawn, go fly fishing, I was happy to be with him.
I sat on the fender of his 50's Chevy pick up, learning to set valves.
I could change points/condensers before I started school.
I'm no smarter than average, anyone can install points.
Same deal cleaning a carb. Goes back together the same way you took it apart.
Sure that carb goes back together just like it came apart , but I have witnessed some very intelligent folks not manage to accomplish that feat :laugh:
Dusty
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Sure that carb goes back together just like it came apart , but I have witnessed some very intelligent folks not manage to accomplish that feat :laugh:
Dusty
And just who told you they were intelligent? :huh:
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Of course, the modern one, albeit I am not interested in Starbucks.
+1. $#*& Starbucks!
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And just who told you they were intelligent? :huh:
Oh , you know a couple of them from right here , and likely would consider them very intelligent :grin:
Dusty
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Oh , you know a couple of them from right here , and likely would consider them very intelligent :grin:
Dusty
Don't believe everything people claim to be.
Example, I am a very handsome man :laugh:
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I own carbed bikes and bikes with FI and computer. I still prefer the bikes without all the computers and sensors. The carbed bikes just seem easier for my to track down and fix the problem when one arises. But with that said my '60's truck is giving me a bit of a fit right now.
With this said. I do like the FI bikes. You just start it up and ride. But when something goes wrong, they are for me a bit harder to tack down the problem. For me to LOVE the FI bikes, I would like to be able to hook up a scanner and have it tell me EXACTLY which part has failed. On a car I had to mess with, the scanner showed the code, but the code was rather cryptic and I had to guess what part made the code come up. Yes, I did look it up on the net and found the most likely cause and fixed it.
Tom
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I'd buy a new 850 Lemans w/ carbs and points !
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I own carbed bikes and bikes with FI and computer. I still prefer the bikes without all the computers and sensors. The carbed bikes just seem easier for my to track down and fix the problem when one arises. But with that said my '60's truck is giving me a bit of a fit right now.
With this said. I do like the FI bikes. You just start it up and ride. But when something goes wrong, they are for me a bit harder to tack down the problem. For me to LOVE the FI bikes, I would like to be able to hook up a scanner and have it tell me EXACTLY which part has failed. On a car I had to mess with, the scanner showed the code, but the code was rather cryptic and I had to guess what part made the code come up. Yes, I did look it up on the net and found the most likely cause and fixed it.
Tom
What's up with your truck?
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What's up with your truck?
It has a stumble that starts at about 60mph and once it starts it continues at all speeds that I need to figure out. I may make a new topic if I can't figure it out.
Thanks for asking!
Tom
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Carbs and points. Otherwise, it's just pointless. :grin:
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I'm happy with DelOrtos and Dyna. But I'm not a mechanic or electronics/ computer dude either. Nor do I have a Guzzi dealer nearby. The setup I have has worked since '89 I say if it works-don't fix it. Cheers :boozing:
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I'm happy with DelOrtos and Dyna. But I'm not a mechanic or electronics/ computer dude either. Nor do I have a Guzzi dealer nearby. The setup I have has worked since '89 I say if it works-don't fix it. Cheers :boozing:
Don't you also own a modern Triumph , or am I imagining things :laugh:
Dusty
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EFI only. There's nothing to know about them. No more chokes. No warmup hiccups. Get on, start, go. That's the way I live life :-)
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EFI only. There's nothing to know about them. No more chokes. No warmup hiccups. Get on, start, go. That's the way I live life :-)
Problem is you need a computer to go along with them. Then comes the sensors.
Properly jetted, carb. bikes warm up pretty quick, and your oil warms and circulates in the mean time.
BAZINGA!
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Don't you also own a modern Triumph , or am I imagining things :laugh:
Dusty
I thought we were talking about our Moto Guzzis ?
A 2006 probably isn't considered "modern" to some of these guys <shrug>
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My 20-year old '98 Centauro GT - fuel-injected, electronic-ignition, Will-Creedon-chip, etc. The only thing in >7,000 miles that has DIED, since I have owned it, (...and replaced with another OEM model), was the POS Veglia Borletti tach.
(https://i.ibb.co/KGb70sN/Screen-Shot-2018-12-26-at-4-02-24-PM.png) (https://ibb.co/KGb70sN)
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If this was a post 100 years ago it would be, Would you rather buy a new ox or one of them modern kero burning tractors? Give me the tractor :laugh:
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Hope to turn eighty next month and have had my share of points & carbs. Give me the electronic ignition & fuel injection. Just want to ride without having to fiddle! :laugh: :laugh:
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If this was a post 100 years ago it would be, Would you rather buy a new ox or one of them modern kero burning tractors? Give me the tractor :laugh:
C'mon now....Guzzi's and Kerosene burning tractors...I see the correlation!! (LOL) :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :shocked: :shocked: :huh:
(https://i.ibb.co/Lvrf5R4/Screen-Shot-2018-12-26-at-4-51-01-PM.png) (https://ibb.co/Lvrf5R4)
(https://i.ibb.co/yQFLb3Q/Screen-Shot-2018-12-26-at-4-50-54-PM.png) (https://ibb.co/yQFLb3Q)
(https://i.ibb.co/1QHvD7X/Screen-Shot-2018-12-26-at-4-50-38-PM.png) (https://ibb.co/1QHvD7X)
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I remember when electric starters were considered , er , well , a lack of masculinity :shocked:
Dusty
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I remember when electric starters were considered , er , well , a lack of masculinity :shocked:
Dusty
And those sissy boys with windshields and front brakes.....terrible .
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And those sissy boys with windshields and front brakes.....terrible .
Yep , and who needed a 5 , or even a 4 speed transmission , why if your motor is any good 3 speeds is all anyone needs , and whatever you so don't get me started on automatic advance ignition systems , a lever on the bars is all anyone needs to control ignition advance , right ?
Dusty
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I'm fine with carbs and electronic ignition. :popcorn:
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Awe screw it , just give me an all lectric bike with 200 ft lbs. of torque and a 300 mile extension chord.
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I own carbed bikes and bikes with FI and computer. I still prefer the bikes without all the computers and sensors. The carbed bikes just seem easier for my to track down and fix the problem when one arises. But with that said my '60's truck is giving me a bit of a fit right now.
With this said. I do like the FI bikes. You just start it up and ride. But when something goes wrong, they are for me a bit harder to tack down the problem. For me to LOVE the FI bikes, I would like to be able to hook up a scanner and have it tell me EXACTLY which part has failed. On a car I had to mess with, the scanner showed the code, but the code was rather cryptic and I had to guess what part made the code come up. Yes, I did look it up on the net and found the most likely cause and fixed it.
Tom
When one can hook up the lap top and let tell what the problem is and which part failed youbcan bet the bank that failed part is some kind of piece of crap that the EPA forced on manufacturers that's not necessary on a motorcycle in the first place. 90% of the garbage on today's bikes is not essential for a gasoline combustion engine to operate.
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When one can hook up the lap top and let tell what the problem is and which part failed youbcan bet the bank that failed part is some kind of piece of crap that the EPA forced on manufacturers that's not necessary on a motorcycle in the first place. 90% of the garbage on today's bikes is not essential for a gasoline combustion engine to operate.
Including the rear wheel! :evil: Pretty sure some carbed bikes are still sold here. More likely it is the hp and mpg demands of the market that push the computer controlled fuel injection solution. Well mapped FI can optimize fuel to air for better power and economy at all temperatures and elevations. I've followed plenty of stinky carbed bikes that make your eyes and nose burn after 30 minutes.
Don't think the EPA has anything to do with it:
(https://i.ibb.co/qpjLjVG/Chevrolet-Corvette-C1-Early-fuel-injection-IMG-0423-a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qpjLjVG)
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Yep , and who needed a 5 , or even a 4 speed transmission , why if your motor is any good 3 speeds is all anyone needs , and whatever you so don't get me started on automatic advance ignition systems , a lever on the bars is all anyone needs to control ignition advance , right ?
Dusty
"I don't want Ty o go out and play, ma. I got an x box"
(https://i.ibb.co/C59GwVG/hjjv.png) (https://ibb.co/C59GwVG)
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"I don't want Ty o go out and play, ma. I got an x box"
(https://i.ibb.co/C59GwVG/hjjv.png) (https://ibb.co/C59GwVG)
Which apparently is much worse than pinball .
Dusty
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When you've lived long enough you you've learned that each evolution of industry/technology has their unique characteristics & level of aceptance. If it works it evolves, if not it goes away. (sometimes re-invented & improved a generation or more later.) What is true is something Grandpa said (a lifelong machinist), the more you have the more goes wrong.
Another thing leatned, Based on more than one experience, I will never buy another 1st year motorcycle. The final R&D is the street
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But mom, I am playing outside.
(https://i.ibb.co/8B8W6yK/m.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8B8W6yK)
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More likely it is the hp and mpg demands of the market that push the computer controlled fuel injection solution. Well mapped FI can optimize fuel to air for better power and economy at all temperatures and elevations. I've followed plenty of stinky carbed bikes that make your eyes and nose burn after 30 minutes.
Don't think the EPA has anything to do with it:
I figured EFI was a way to cut maintenance costs, so it's great for shops. The EPA likes it because it prevents owners from tampering - at least most of them. As for fuel economy, I don't see any difference - a well tuned carb gets about the same mileage as injection. Carbureted bikes were going as fast 50 or 60 years ago as they are now. But you're right - injection does compensate for temp and elevation - that's why it was first developed for aircraft.
As for poorly adjusted carbs, I've lived with BMWs that surged because the mapping was all screwed up compensating for EPA noise or CO standards. And BMW of course, denied there was a problem. It's not all roses on either side of the fence, but at least with carbs I can swap jets, needles, floats and make adjustments to get it right. It's a good thing you Guzzi injected guys have a guru in your back pocket to straighten out messes like that.
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Another “what if” question. Could we make points and carbs be better than they used to be with modern technology?
For example, we now routinely make spark plugs with exotic metals that resist electrostatic erosion much better. What if we made points out of that metal so they lasted 100,000 miles.
Maybe precision CNC machines, and improved gasket materials, could create better carbs.
The main thing that extended plus life is the removal of lead in fuel the materials have helped a bit although its more about stopping the high powered ignitions burning out conventional plugs. Higher compression makes it harder to throw a spark to keep up ingitions have gone from about 5000volts to 15-20 Kv. Magnetos are still used in drag racing for a reson.
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On the MPG thing. You would think the EFI bikes should get better mileage, but....
On my commute, my '72 850 Eldo carb, '04 1100 EVT EFI and the '07 Harley 1600cc EFI all got 40mpg or very close. 120 miles on 3 gallons. My '70 Ambo is the lame duck at about 36-38 mpg. Heck, my '62 F100 inline 6 gets about what my '14 F150 V6 does. F100 120 miles at about 70 mph freeway used about 9 gallons. F150 with mixed but mainly freeway and 120 miles used about 8 gallons per the computer.
Just some thoughts,
Tom
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What is true is something Grandpa said (a lifelong machinist), the more you have the more goes wrong.
It depends on what he meant.
There are more possibilities of things that can go wrong, that's true.
But many times what people instinctively want to assume is true science or at least disciplined analysis later proves untrue.
It's a generally proven fact that on a whole vehicles today require fewer repairs (are more reliable).
Just because a system has more possible routes to failure doesn't mean it will more often.
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I figured EFI was a way to cut maintenance costs, so it's great for shops. The EPA likes it because it prevents owners from tampering - at least most of them. As for fuel economy, I don't see any difference - a well tuned carb gets about the same mileage as injection. Carbureted bikes were going as fast 50 or 60 years ago as they are now. But you're right - injection does compensate for temp and elevation - that's why it was first developed for aircraft.
As for poorly adjusted carbs, I've lived with BMWs that surged because the mapping was all screwed up compensating for EPA noise or CO standards. And BMW of course, denied there was a problem. It's not all roses on either side of the fence, but at least with carbs I can swap jets, needles, floats and make adjustments to get it right. It's a good thing you Guzzi injected guys have a guru in your back pocket to straighten out messes like that.
There is no question that EFI (first open-loop and eventually closed-loop) was primarily driven by emmisions standards.
Thanks to the sometimes ridiculous testing conditions/emissions targets and unintended consequences of them carburetors can generally match power and mpg while polluting more.
The only thing the carbs can't due is safely approach the lean conditions required for best catalytic converter operation. You can see this in the evolution from open to closed loop systems, the adoption of cat-cons, and the increase in cylinder head temps and strategies for cooling air-cooled motors as the standards got tighter.
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On the MPG thing. You would think the EFI bikes should get better mileage, but....
On my commute, my '72 850 Eldo carb, '04 1100 EVT EFI and the '07 Harley 1600cc EFI all got 40mpg or very close. 120 miles on 3 gallons. My '70 Ambo is the lame duck at about 36-38 mpg. Heck, my '62 F100 inline 6 gets about what my '14 F150 V6 does. F100 120 miles at about 70 mph freeway used about 9 gallons. F150 with mixed but mainly freeway and 120 miles used about 8 gallons per the computer.
Just some thoughts,
Tom
The EFI machines in your examples are generally managing to get the same mpg out of heavier machined while making more hp, so they ARE more efficient. They also could likely be even more efficient if they weren't strangled with attempts to limit/control exhaust gases. You sometimes see this when a bike is retuned for more power and still manages the same or better mileage.
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A good example on this conversation is my first experience with EFI and on board computer systems was with the HD brand. My ridding buddy and I both had 03 Electra glides. Mine came factory with EFI and his was a carb, last year for them so both was available. Both started without issue, on cold mornings he pulled out his choke according to how cold, both got almost the same fuel mileage, and woukd neck to neck during heavy acceleration. The difference started to show when we both decided to install mid range cams. The same shop did both of them. His simply needed a jet charge, mine required a 200.00 computer add on and a ride on the mechine to tune it, another 200 bucks. However both ran great afterwards and were still equal in every way. Go figure.
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I remember when electric starters were considered , er , well , a lack of masculinity :shocked:
Dusty
That's right. If you can't kickstart it, you shouldn't be riding it. That's the way it was. Pity the poor sod who someone put a piece of cigarette pack cellophane in the points of his Panhead... "Come on, man, get that thing started, we gots to go!"
Larry
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The only thing the carbs can't due is safely approach the lean conditions required for best catalytic converter operation.
Kev, that´s not necessarily true. There is a small company in Stuttgart that provides solutions with Kats (in Germany called G-Kats or regulated Kats) for cars like e.g. really old Volkswagen Beetles (even Split Windows) by using the carburetors. How do they do that? Well, they add Lambda probes, a small by a computer regulated air valve and the Kat of course. The carb is tuned a bit too fat, the air valve (sitting behind the carb) adds air according the computer, which evaluates the Lambda probe. They have for years now astonished a lot of people.
Admittedly, to my knowledge they have only worked on cars. For those who can read German here the link: http://www.wurmkat.de/
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The cosr factor of parts needing replacing is more expensive EFI/ECU's/electronics (not counting economic/labor increases). I've had parts associates I'm familiar with apologize for a modern parts cost & help out where they could.
It's harder cost wise for a Dad to find a small non running used bike for an enthusiastic child & try to bring it back to life. ( Even if it's pre EFI etc.)
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Problem is you need a computer to go along with them. Then comes the sensors.
Properly jetted, carb. bikes warm up pretty quick, and your oil warms and circulates in the mean time.
BAZINGA!
I've gotten over 125,000 miles on EFI Guzzis and have never required a computer to keep them running and have never had any kind of sensor fail (knock on wood). I keep the throttle bodies cleaned, synched and run a little seafoam once a year or so. Heck, my wifes '01 CalSpec has 140K on the clock and has never had any type of malfunction related to the EFI. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I cannot say the same thing about my carb'd bikes in the past.
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I've gotten over 125,000 miles on EFI Guzzis and have never required a computer to keep them running and have never had any kind of sensor fail (knock on wood). I keep the throttle bodies cleaned, synched and run a little seafoam once a year or so. Heck, my wifes '01 CalSpec has 140K on the clock and has never had any type of malfunction related to the EFI. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I cannot say the same thing about my carb'd bikes in the past.
I think it's safe to say that when the EFI ECU bikes works it does a great job but I can attest when something goes wrong with that system it can be a nightmare if one, like myself, hasn't kept up with that technology and this is the well kept secret on the issue. Back in the day I could fix issues because my simple mind could comprehend the basics of the internal combustion engine of AIR, FUEL SPARK.
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Carbs & points, It'll be the only thing running after the large sunburst happens.
:thumb:
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Fuel injection and electronic ignition
I just hate smelling gas from carbs or like the old plungers you had to prime and got gas on your thumb!
Call me weird but would rather not smell or touch gas at my age........ :huh:
inditx
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Carbs & points, It'll be the only thing running after the large sunburst happens.
And mechanical pump diesels...
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the basics of the internal combustion engine of AIR, FUEL SPARK.
Which hasn't changed in the slightest, 125000miles the carbs will have worn out needles seats possibly slides and some cases bodies.
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I guess this sounds lame, but I don't miss adjusting my idle mixture every time I climb or descend another 3500 feet in the Rockies. I can live with carburetors (I even prefer them on some things) and I still have my timing strobe and dwell meter, but I find that electronically controlled injection and ignition is clearly a better system...from a standpoint of performance, reliability, and convenience. I loved my old '60 BMW, but I don't miss the constant maintenance.