Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: czakky82 on December 26, 2018, 08:44:20 AM
-
Hope everybody had a great holiday. I spent mine replacing chrome bores! Which went really well.
I’m having more and more questions about this old girl so I figured I would start my own thread. Instead of cluttering up the board.
I recently did the recommended timing chain/tensioner replacement and while I had my right cylinder off swapping out old chrome ones I noticed one of the original tensioner bolts (unused and shortened) was through the case a bit on the crank side. It looks like about 1mm or more of clearance to the crank on the forward most counterweight.
Is this enough? I have no clue how much a crank can move under load.
I am not too keen on buying another timing gasket and removing the sprockets again to shorten this bolt.
Thanks as usual for any guidance.
-
If you can pull crank forward w/hand in hole for cyl, pull in clutch too, that puts pressure on the crank also. See if it's got clearance to the flyweight. Put a tiewrap on clutch lever.
Safer to have it flush w/case, extra work and parts or not.
-
Good point on the clutch, I didn’t think of that....
All the money and effort I suppose I should make it right.
-
You think I can re-use a metal core timing cover gasket?
-
So Greg Bender’s super awesome and helpful website has the handlebar switch wiring for a Cal II. My somewhat helpful Clymer manual has a somewhat legible wiring diagram for a Euro spec T3.
My bike is a 77’ T3 civilian as far as I can tell.
Are these going to have the same wiring as either bikes?
-
So Greg Bender’s super awesome and helpful website has the handlebar switch wiring for a Cal II. My somewhat helpful Clymer manual has a somewhat legible wiring diagram for a Euro spec T3.
My bike is a 77’ T3 civilian as far as I can tell.
Are these going to have the same wiring as either bikes?
What switch are you installing on your T3? Greg sells a "plug and play" adapter for both K&S and Domino switches:
K&S:
(http://thisoldtractor.com/for_sale/switch_ks-to-molex_1.jpg)
Domino:
(http://thisoldtractor.com/for_sale/switch_molex-to-molex-left_1.jpg)
See all the details here: http://thisoldtractor.com/for_sale_wiring_harness_tonti_850_t3.html
-
I saw that but I wanted to run the wires through the bars.
I have some Emgo switches from MG. They are narrow and have an on/off switch, if not attractive...
-
You think I can re-use a metal core timing cover gasket?
Yes, if w/you wipe it off no rubber is missing. Then you may want to use a very light smear of Pro Black on it or Threebond.
-
late to the party but could you just remove bolt and put a washer under the head?? Probably to simple to work??? Or, better yet~ crank it up see if it works as is???
-
@Steve, got one ordered anyway...
@jcctx, if/when I make it that far to the not shortened enough bolt I will just buzz her down some more. It does have enough clearance but this is going to be my zen cruiser and I don’t like having these things in the back of mind. Plus I’m not sure what goes on in there when nobody is looking!
-
At this point I’ve got to get back in the timing case to shorten up those pesky bolt(s). Then I’m going to wrap up my brake job with fresh lines. Followed by the replacement of both the gaskets on the sump lowering kit and fresh oil of course.
After that I was thinking of putting some fresh lube on the splines. Should I? What’s involved?
Definitely don’t need a step by step but I hardly read about anybody arriving old Tonti splines. Am I missing something?
Please pardon my ignorance...
-
I found a very small amount of pitting on my 2 of my cam followers when replacing the cylinders. Like two 1-.5mm specs of plating missing. Of course I’m all buttoned up now.
Should I worry? Will I notice an increase in valve lash if I have problems?
-
What do you guys/gals think of my splines. I haven’t cleaned them up or anything. Bike has an alleged 45k miles.
Thanks for any input
(https://i.ibb.co/YhXR6GF/90-ED2-D77-B9-B0-4807-9951-EF49292-BC106.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YhXR6GF)
(https://i.ibb.co/rZt4bdK/A2-B5-F05-F-4040-4688-820-F-8-C541-F2-CD8-B6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rZt4bdK)
-
What do you guys/gals think of my splines. I haven’t cleaned them up or anything. Bike has an alleged 45k miles.
Thanks for any input
(https://i.ibb.co/YhXR6GF/90-ED2-D77-B9-B0-4807-9951-EF49292-BC106.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YhXR6GF)
(https://i.ibb.co/rZt4bdK/A2-B5-F05-F-4040-4688-820-F-8-C541-F2-CD8-B6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rZt4bdK)
Approx. 50% worn.
-
When new, the tooth crowns and tooth valleys were all approximately equal dimensions. What we see now is worn but serviceable. How many more miles do you expect? Not another 100K.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
-
I was thinking less 50% life. So thanks!
I guess I would just like to not worry about it for a couple tire changes. Also it looks like parts are still available for not crazy money.
Moving on to the u-joint and swing arm bearings....
Thanks for your input guys.
-
Swing arm out and u-joint too. The u-joint seems to fit into the carrier bearing somewhat easy, maybe a slight push to fit. I can feel not play in the u-joint splines are great. Carrier bearing is smooth and happy.
The only thing I’m a bit unclear about is the fit between u-joint and bearing. Everything I’ve read is “tight” not pressed or tapered. I’m just not sure how tight is tight...
Not trying to be cheap, I just want it right.
Thanks for any input
-
While she purred like a kitten and fired up before the starter made a single rotation, unfortunately she was leaking like the Econ Valdez out of the bell housing :cry:. Frame crabbed trans out...
Any recommendations on things to take a look at while the trans is out? Selector spring? I’m just going to replace any seal I can find. Isn’t there o-rings for the push rod that are leak prone?
-
Replace the two crush washers on each side of the large bajo bolt at the base of the engine block and use some thread sealant on the bolt threads, my Eldorado leaked out of that bolts for two years/ You could check the rear crank shaft main seal but you will need to pull the clutch and flywheel and then you as may as well replace the clutch discs......
-
While she purred like a kitten and fired up before the starter made a single rotation, unfortunately she was leaking like the Econ Valdez out of the bell housing :cry:. Frame crabbed trans out...
Any recommendations on things to take a look at while the trans is out? Selector spring? I’m just going to replace any seal I can find. Isn’t there o-rings for the push rod that are leak prone?
Although mine is a smallblock, oil leaks are the same.
The burning question is, which oil, motor or gearbox?
Engine oil usually discoloured. Gearbox oil has an acrid smell. May be black from clutch dust though. You don't want to replace all the gearbox seals only to find it was the main seal in the engine.
-
Replace the two crush washers on each side of the large bajo bolt at the base of the engine block and use some thread sealant on the bolt threads, my Eldorado leaked out of that bolts for two years/ You could check the rear crank shaft main seal but you will need to pull the clutch and flywheel and then you as may as well replace the clutch discs......
The plan is to replace anything that might leak... Will do!
-
Although mine is a smallblock, oil leaks are the same.
The burning question is, which oil, motor or gearbox?
Engine oil usually discoloured. Gearbox oil has an acrid smell. May be black from clutch dust though. You don't want to replace all the gearbox seals only to find it was the main seal in the engine.
It is definitely engine oil. Hard to say for sure it’s the main seal but the PO didn’t know he had a sump extension with a regular dipstick (a quart over filled). After cleaning the engine the only place that had oil was the bell housing weep hole. Nice clean oil after a fresh change.
I was hoping the flywheel and clutch would come out as a unit (first time getting this deep into a Guzzi). Would you suspect it would need a clutch at 45k?
-
One more thing. Do I need the clutch centering tool, main bearing puller or the main seal installation tool?
-
Would you suspect it would need a clutch at 45k?
That depends entirely on how it has been ridden. Sitting at stop lights holding the lever in? Maybe. Drag racing? :grin: Yep.
-
Alright, alright I’ll throw some friction discs in my MG Cycle cart. I hope my wife never discovers how much I spend there.
What about the specialty tools? You guys find them necessary?
-
One more thing. Do I need the clutch centering tool, main bearing puller or the main seal installation tool?
The clutch hub can be used as a clutch centering/spring compressor tool with a suitable spacer for in the center and bolt. If you're using friction plates with 2 mm splines (vs. the later 4 mm splines) this tool is inexpensive: https://www.claussstudios.com/store/p726/Moto_Guzzi_V700_Ambassador_Clutch_Alignment_Tool.html
If you're pulling the rear main bearing/flange, then the proper tool or a home-made copy is a good idea.
A main seal installation tool isn't really necessary IMO - I install the seal into the main bearing while it's out of the engine. A large socket makes a good seal driver.
-
I think I’ll do the trans input seal. Even if it shows no signs of leaking. That way the only special tool I’ll need is the special socket.
Thanks
-
I think I’ll do the trans input seal. Even if it shows no signs of leaking. That way the only special tool I’ll need is the special socket.
Thanks
There are two o-rings on the input shaft that you should replace too.
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=117&products_id=1382
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=117&products_id=1385
And I would recommend replacing the clutch pushrod seal (could be a plastic sleeve or the "update" two rubber cones) with the six o-ring stack. I'll send you the six o-rings for free if you PM me your mailing address.
-
Can’t pass that up! PM sent
-
Alright the back of the engine is all sealed (main seal, gasket, crush washers,can plug and breather return gasket). Transmission is almost all sealed as well as a new output bearing and thrust bearing. Clutch kit on order (SD TEC) fresh springs etc.
I have a question on my swingarm though.
I stuck the nicer u-joint that MG sells in the freezer and mated it with a fresh carrier bearing. I’m just not sure i’ve got the u-joint seated all the way. How do you tell?
-
Keep your old clutch plate center. Remove center boss, weld on large piece of steel, = cheap tool to hold the main shaft on the gearbox when you need to do the bearing.
-
Clutch and flywheel back on.
All bearings and seals in transmission that needed replacement are done.
Stupid memory is failing me. When I replace the back cover does the speedo drive ball bearing ride against the stake nut on the output shaft? Is there supposed to be a washer there?
-
Looks like the speedo drive ball I received was the wrong size. I got it figured out with the correct size ball.
Next problem. These brakes drag real bad. It’s actually hard to push this bike around unless I loosen a caliper. It’s definitely the linked brakes. This winter I went through everything, rebuilt all calipers, fresh brake lines. The PO installed a new MC about three years ago. Still drags the same way it always did front and rear wheel.
Is there an adjustment on the MC or proportioning valve? Could my calipers not being center mess me up?
-
I'm guessing the problem is with the left side? Was the foot activated master the one that was replaced?
It's possible the linkage has no slack and is actually energizing the calipers. Maybe the return spring is missing and the weight of the brake lever is applying pressure to the cylinder?
-
Yes the linked brake side. That’s a really good point about the linkage.
-
It doesn't take much. Looking down into the master through the reservoir, there are two holes - one large, one small. The piston closes up the small one first and that's the bleed-back port. The piston, at rest, is very close to that port, so it doesn't take much movement to block it. When it's blocked, the brakes don't release. Sometimes some crud can block that port with the same result. But in your case, my guess is something with the linkage.
-
I should have time to look at it today. I’ll post my findings.
-
I backed off the bolt that the lever rests on when not in use. It seemed to have worked on the front caliper but not the rear. One other thing I forgot about, the rear caliper has a missing bleeder nipple. Both pistons seem to move freely (closed at least).
Should I just pony up and buy the new caliper or is there a test I can do on the propotioning valve?
-
I backed off the bolt that the lever rests on when not in use. It seemed to have worked on the front caliper but not the rear. One other thing I forgot about, the rear caliper has a missing bleeder nipple. Both pistons seem to move freely (closed at least).
Should I just pony up and buy the new caliper or is there a test I can do on the propotioning valve?
On the T3 that is just a junction block, not a proportioning valve.
-
Well done getting the front to work.
The big question on the rear is if the piston moves all the way out in its travel. Does the lever arm on the master have some slack or is it tight up against the piston?
No need to replace the master. It's one of two things: 1. the piston isn't going all the way to the end of its travel because it's prevented for some reason. 2. The bleed back hole is plugged, in which case, unplug it.
Those are about the only two things that could be going on with it. I guess it could have been built with the wrong seals - that's a possibility. Never had that happen, or even heard of it, but I guess it's possible. So first off, make sure nothing is pushing on the piston when it's supposed to be at rest, and check on the bleed-back hole.
-
Ok I’m an idiot. After actuating the master a million times I took off the cover on the caliper. Definitely not enough shim in there.... Always something simple.
Thanks for the help guys.
Now it’s the off idle stumble I’ve got to solve. I’m going to start with rechecking ignition timing...
-
Ok I’m an idiot. After actuating the master a million times I took off the cover on the caliper. Definitely not enough shim in there....
You lost me there. First off, there are no shims in the caliper. With the cover off you'll see the alignment pins, a spring clip, and the pads attached to their metal backing plates.
It sounds like the brakes aren't dragging anymore but I haven't a clue what happened...
-
Sorry that wasn’t very well articulated.
So my “method” for aligning the caliper was to use the seam in comparison to the disc. After I popped the cover off it was obvious that one side (pad) was dragging on the disc.
Basically I think there was two problems. The original issue, Wirespokes led me to the right place by looking at the linkage.
-
Good! Got the linkage situation handled.
Just want to make sure the pad wasn't rubbing on the disc because the caliper piston wasn't retracting. You'll know soon enough once the brakes are applied and they drag again.
But if it was due to new pads taking up all the room with the pistons totally retracted, then I guess the caliper would need to be exactly placed. So the shim you're talking about positions the caliper on the mount - I get it.
-
Alright, stumped again...
After my heavy duty refresh this winter and my first couple rides she ran great, not perfect but acceptable. Then somehow after getting my linked brake issue solved she’s running like crap. Like just bogs with any throttle input. Hot or cold it doesn’t make much difference. Once rolling up past 4K it seems to get better but still bad. If I give her some choke (enrichener) it would just die.
Could my valves have tightened up that much after the fresh gillardoni kit? It’s probably less than 100 mikes and maybe four heat cycles.
I’ve gone back through the carbs again.
Opening the fuel tank doesn’t change anything, I’ve got good flow through both petcocks.
It’s T3 with pods and Bub exhaust fresh points/condensers.
Here’s a pic of the plugs, both look the same.
(https://i.ibb.co/Mp0LKkG/6426-E2-D3-F988-4-ECF-A3-D4-1-FE988-B11-B19.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Mp0LKkG)
pic hoster (https://imgbb.com/)
-
Could my valves have tightened up that much after the fresh gillardoni kit? It’s probably less than 100 mikes and maybe four heat cycles.
Have you retorqued the heads and adjusted the valves any since installing the Gilardoni kits? In my experience, you need to do that very often in the 1000 miles or so, until the gaskets finally finish compressing completely. I usually: assemble the top-end, torque the head nuts, but leave the rockers off. Next day, retorque, install rockers, set valve lash. Start engine and run 15-20 minutes, let cool completely back to ambient temp, retorque, adjust valves again. 5 heat/cool cycles - retorque again and adjust valves. 500 miles - ditto. 1000 miles ditto. Then it should be settled in.
-
I was thinking water in the gas. If re-torquing and adjusting valves doesn't fix, pop the float bowls and look for water in the gas.
-
Have you retorqued the heads and adjusted the valves any since installing the Gilardoni kits? In my experience, you need to do that very often in the 1000 miles or so, until the gaskets finally finish compressing completely. I usually: assemble the top-end, torque the head nuts, but leave the rockers off. Next day, retorque, install rockers, set valve lash. Start engine and run 15-20 minutes, let cool completely back to ambient temp, retorque, adjust valves again. 5 heat/cool cycles - retorque again and adjust valves. 500 miles - ditto. 1000 miles ditto. Then it should be settled in.
Ok I did do the overnight re-torque, but that’s it. I read somewhere to just re torque after 500 miles and you should be good.
I will do that tomorrow.
-
I was thinking water in the gas. If re-torquing and adjusting valves doesn't fix, pop the float bowls and look for water in the gas.
Yeah I went through the carbs completely... again. Will report back after heads re torqued.
Although I have to say there is some valve noise. Not as loud as my V11 Sport, but some...
-
I know you went through the carbs, but this has nothing to do with that. Condensation builds up on the gas tank inside, then drops to the bottom of the tank since water is heavier than gas.
When it flows into the carb, it sits at the bottom of the float bowl and blocks the jets. It doesn't evaporate out since gas is covering it. The only way out is through the jets or by dumping it.
When pulling the float bowl, keep a container under it to catch what comes out so you can check if it's got water or not. You know what to look for? It's like a bubble rolling under the gas.
-
It sounds totally feasible. I did dump gas from the bowls in a clear jar, didn’t see anything. I will try again though.
-
You've gotta look really close. Tilt the jar a little so the water collects at the low spot. Wiggle the jar a little and you'll be able to see the 'bubble' jiggling.
-
Re-torqued the heads this evening. I started by checking valve clearance. Right side was a bit tight. I originally set it to 6 and 8 thou and found the right at 2 and 4 the left maybe 6 and 4. I was actually hoping to find them a bit tighter.
The heads were pretty loose though. When I backed the nuts off to re-torque they loosened up at around 15ft/lbs and went way past there original position, so I guess it was needed.
Reset valves to 6 and 8 and buttoned her up. Unfortunately I couldn’t test anything out since we got a couple inches of snow today :angry:.
I will check those float bowls tomorrow hopefully.
Sorry if this project is hogging the discussion board lately....
-
Don't be sorry. Keep up the work and let us know what fixes it!
Good luck!
Tom
-
By chance, are the carbs still set for the stock cylinders. Sounds the idle is set too low.... :undecided:
-
@Wirespokes, unfortunately the gas was water free after multiple attempts.
@TomH, :thumb:
@Tom, the idle has been adjusted multiple times. It actually idles pretty well.
While I was there I checked compression: 130L psi 148R. Ice cold throttle wide open. That’s not great with fresh cylinders and pistons....
I also checked spark it was decent with a solid orange/blue.
I also have an issue where the gen doesn’t start charging until like 3k+ rpm. On the other hand my battery is rock solid.
Could this be my culprit?
-
Does it start charging at 3K or slowly climbs to it?
-
Gen light is on until 3k then it stays off after it get revved. It will however get over 14v when revved up to 4K but then no charging below 3k I’m pretty sure.
-
That shouldn't be the problem. The bike would run off the battery till you get it up to 3K.
-
I went back through the carbs again today (among many other things). I found that my floats are labeled 8g where the service manual calls for a 14g float. Anyway I found somewhere the 8g floats are to be set at 18mm as opposed to 23mm or some where there abouts. Try as I might but there is no way for me to set these floats that high. I found them at 23mm (I’m forgetting exactly what the height is) which is what they were supposed to be set at stock.
Does anybody have an opinion on this?
-
I went back through the carbs again today (among many other things). I found that my floats are labeled 8g where the service manual calls for a 14g float. Anyway I found somewhere the 8g floats are to be set at 18mm as opposed to 23mm or some where there abouts. Try as I might but there is no way for me to set these floats that high. I found them at 23mm (I’m forgetting exactly what the height is) which is what they were supposed to be set at stock.
Does anybody have an opinion on this?
Let me guess: the 8 gram floats are those horrible white ones? I chuck those in the bin and replace them with original 14 gram ones.
-
No they are actually solid black ones. I said 8g they might be 10...
-
The answer, of course, is replace them with 14 gram floats. :evil:
-
NLA.
Anybody have 14g black floats?
I don’t think this is my problem, since the bike did run fine for a while. It should be made right though.
-
14g floats are NLA???
That sucks!
-
10 or 14 - I've never seen much of a difference. Set them at 23.5-24.5 mm.
-
A freakin bad CONDENSER! Brand new of course. Right cylinder. Aaaargh!
Happy I got it!
Thanks for the support.
-
A freakin bad CONDENSER! Brand new of course. Right cylinder. Aaaargh!
Happy I got it!
Thanks for the support.
I had the same thing on a customer's V700 - brand new Facet condenser bad right out of the box. The first bad one of probably two dozen I've installed over the last few years.
-
Yup, I’ve always heard that a good old condenser is better than an unknown new condenser.
Really felt like a lean condition but it never backfired or popped.
What’s the sayin? 90% of carburation problems are ignition problems.
-
I've heard that a bad condenser can mimic just about any poor running condition.
And that takes us back to the mechanic's maxim "inspect the last thing changed/handled".
Well done figuring it out! My first condenser issue was in 1970 in the middle of nowhere Indiana cruising along, then suddenly running like crap. Thought it was carburation but couldn't fix it, called a tow, the tow driver went right to the consdenser and fixed it on the side of the road. Had a condenser go bad on the R90 and spent days figuring that one out. It would run fine, then suddenly die and not restart. After a while of checking, it would suddenly start again. Took it on a test ride to Swan Island which is a couple hundred feet lower than the rest of the landscape. It died down there and so I pushed the thing all the way back home, which wasn't that far, but the push up the hill was certainly tiring.
Some experiences you just don't forget.
-
Yup, I’ve always heard that a good old condenser is better than an unknown new condenser.
Really felt like a lean condition but it never backfired or popped.
What’s the sayin? 90% of carburation problems are ignition problems.
That's mine. Carburation problems are generally ignition. :smiley:
-
Nice find. :thumb:
Electrolytic condensers can repair themselves to a certain extent, but of course, they will always be faulty. It does tend to lead to that "intermittent" which we all love. :evil:
-
I know of a guy (I won't mention any names :wink: ) that traded away a very nice disc Eldorado because it wouldn't run right. Turned out to be the condenser.
-
Not out of the weeds yet... She ran great, like really great for about 3 miles. Then the same symptoms came back.
I have yet to dig into it again, but what would cause a condenser to keep dying?
As I type this I am wondering if a failing regulator could overcharge and cause problems with a condenser?
I haven’t diagnosed anything yet, just spit balling...
-
After my heavy duty refresh this winter and my first couple rides she ran great, not perfect but acceptable. Then somehow after getting my linked brake issue solved she’s running like crap. Like just bogs with any throttle input. Hot or cold it doesn’t make much difference. Once rolling up past 4K it seems to get better but still bad. If I give her some choke (enrichener) it would just die.
These are the symptoms? Sure sounds like carburetion to me. It ran fine last year before all this work?
My guess would be something aint right in the carbs.
-
I just bought the bike this winter. It has run great for a few miles twice. Then something happens seemingly with a condenser. I am going to dig into it a bit this evening.
It definitely ran great after replacing a condenser, I could see constant blue sparks on the right side points when idling before I replaced the condenser.
-
Have you checked for spark at the 3 miles when it acts up? Both sides?
Things to consider.... Coil, plug wires and caps, plugs, fuel filter, fuel valves.
Runs fine for a short while..... Could be getting gas starved. If it sits for a minute, does it run fine again for the same time? Could be ignition. The components can act up when hot. Had a coil that worked fine until it got warmed up, then cut out. Do you need to let it completely cool before it runs decent again?
Just some things to think about,
Tom
-
Now the left condenser! Both were brand new. Again I popped the distributor cover off and the left cylinder was sparking like crazy. Threw the old one on and went for a quick spin and it ran fine.
I bought the allegedly better condensers, they even test good with my meter that can check capacitance. I’m not sure what I’m missing.
@TomH, it seems to have nothing to do with being hot or cold. When it starts running like crap it stays that way. I’m very confident that it’s the condensers now. Just not sure why they are playing up? When they fail they completely fail. Yet test ok....?
I’ve got to travel for work for a couple days but hopefully this weekend I can get some miles on her.
-
What a headache! :violent1:
-
Coils can start off ok, then die, cool down and repair themselves only to die again when they warm up.
-
Can a coil contribute to a condenser failing? Would a coil have to do with some real ugly sparking at the points?
In case you can’t tell I’m stuck on the condensers.
-
I don't know how much the wiring has been fiddled with but I would check for correct polarity on those coils. Ugly sparking has me wondering.......... ...
Paul B :boozing:
-
With the old condensers back on she has been running great!
But I’m still not out of the weeds. My original regulator had tape wrapped around it and I was only getting 13.8v at full song. Regulators are cheap so I threw one on from MG. Then she stopped charging. I threw back in the old reg but still she wasn’t charging. Checked AC voltage at the rectifier, nothing. Checked resistance at the rotor and it was good. Went through my connections at the stator and fired it up, nothing. Then for no reason at all it started charging again.
This is the original type charging system (three phase. Bosch?).
What gives? Does this sound like brushes? I’m not too familiar with these systems.
-
It could be brushes. When they're worn they can get cocked in their channels, hang up not contacting the slip ring. Take a look and see if the pigtail is stretched tight. I think the brushes are something like 14mm new (don't take my word for it - been a long time since I've looked at the spec).
Whatever it is, it's intermittent - the worst kind of fault! Maybe it's a lead broken inside the insulation. Or broken near its end.
I'm not familiar with Guzzi sites on troubleshooting the system (Greg Bender?) but the airhead BMWs have the exact same system and this guy (snowbum) has quite a write up (his day job was electronics repair):
http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/trbleshootalt.htm
-
Looks like a good read.
Thanks again wirespokes!
-
I just replace all the old Guzzi electronic componets with new parts from Euro Moto electrics, pretty cheap if you buy all the bits in the kit. I have had two bikes aith one bad diode that just kept the charging system under minimum.
Are you using coper core high tension leads? Mike Harper diagnosed a similar problem years ago on my 1972 Eldorado, I was running /modern' high tension leads that overheated the coil.
https://www.euromotoelectrics.com/product-p/edl1-altkit105.htm
Ekectrical gremlins are a bear!
-
If I have another blip after replacing the brushes, I will end up buying that kit.
Not sure if my HT leads are modern, they are the recommended ones from MG Cycle. With resistor caps. That is interesting though.
-
If I have another blip after replacing the brushes, I will end up buying that kit.
Not sure if my HT leads are modern, they are the recommended ones from MG Cycle. With resistor caps. That is interesting though.
If you got the leads from MG Cycle they will be copper core, the 'right' ones to use.
-
Just when I’m about ready to shop for horns!
I went for a nice ride this evening and it looks like my base gasket is leaking. :cry: I thought I was out of the weeds!
Full disclosure, I had a moment of, “Did I orient the rings correctly?” This winter and took this cylinder apart to verify after the initial two head torques. Then I proceeded to re-torque after a few heat cycles and again after 200 miles.
So unless anybody tells me otherwise I’ll get the parts on order and refresh the gaskets... again.
Do I have to re-hone the cylinder or anything? It’s brand new (300 miles).
That’ll take the wind out of a guys sails...
Thanks for any help.
-
Anybody have opinions on my last post? I can’t find anybody who ever had leaking base gaskets...
-
For the hone, I wouldn't.
For the head gasket I would replace it. Many, many moons ago, I was told that if you pull a head, always replace the head gasket. That is what I do.
For the base gasket, and it's leaking, I would replace it. BUT....If this was a loop, I would also change out all the O rings and make sure that they are in the right places. I "think" you engine uses the same set of O rings??
Tom
-
I've had some Guzzi engines that were "serial leakers" - fresh gasket, properly torqued, etc. and still a leak. So, those get a light coating of Permatex 300 on the gasket surfaces, fresh gaskets and new (Viton) o-rings.
-
Light coat of hylomar (that’s what I have) and she’s back together. Tomorrow I’ll retorque go for a short ride cool her down and retorque. After a dozen or so heat cycles I will torque both heads. If if leaks, there might be an almost sorted T3 for sale :wink:.
-
Well that wasn’t it.... I see nothing from the breather setup (loop style) I replaced the distributor gasket just now. There might’ve been a tear in the old one. Fingers crossed.
-
Well that wasn’t it.... I see nothing from the breather setup (loop style) I replaced the distributor gasket just now. There might’ve been a tear in the old one. Fingers crossed.
Did you install the "Loop style" breather box? Did it have a intact/working "flapper" disc? Is so, did you remove the original ball type breather valve before you installed the Loop breather box? If you have both the flapper and ball valves in place, the crankcase could be building up pressure which could cause a leak.
-
I never knew the loop style breather box had a flapper... I bought mine brand new from MG Cycle. I will say that there is a good positive pressure out of the exit tube of the breather. FWIW.
Will check that breather box, thanks!
-
I never knew the loop style breather box had a flapper... I bought mine brand new from MG Cycle. I will say that there is a good positive pressure out of the exit tube of the breather. FWIW.
Will check that breather box, thanks!
Yep. If you look up in the large tube of the breather box you should see a metal disc. You want one or the other - ball or flapper - but not both.
-
Makes sense. I know I’ve got the ball valve at the block.
-
So I have a flapper in the breather box and the check valve ball thingy coming out of the case. I will eliminate the check/ball valve.
Thanks for the heads up, I would’ve never known that. :thumb:
I of course have another question.
I took apart my non locking gas cap to clean it up on the inside. I didn’t pay attention to how deep the little screw is, thinking I knew how it worked. :embarrassed: Now it’s pretty hard to close and leak when full.
Anybody have recommendations on how deep the screw goes?
-
Alright, stumped again...
After my heavy duty refresh this winter and my first couple rides she ran great, not perfect but acceptable. Then somehow after getting my linked brake issue solved she’s running like crap. Like just bogs
Did you renew the condenser/s, I made the same mistake, bike ran ok for a couple of days then started to miss so badly I was lucky to get her home, would idle ok but any throttle at all would cause it to miss badly. It turned out the condenser I bought from a California source was a cheap knock off.
-
She’s running good, condensers replaced.
Leaking a little fuel out of the gas cap... see above.
-
Looks like I’ve got a stripped drain plug on my rear drive :cry:.
Can I heli-coil this without stripping the box?
How bad is it to strip a rear drive? I’m afraid of shimming...
-
I just did a level plug on an 850 Le Mans rear drive yesterday. I'd recommend stripping it down.
The hardest part might be getting the cover/flange loose from the case. If you reassemble it the same as you find it (thin paper gasket on each side of the shim), then shimming won't be effected.
You really need to be quite precise when drilling and tapping the hole - it needs to be as close to perfectly perpendicular to the machined sealing washer surface as possible. Otherwise, it could leak.
To prevent it from happening again, you might consider using a "dowty" or "Stat-O-Seal" type washer (metal washer with rubber center). These require much less torque to seal than aluminum, copper or fiber washers.
-
May I suggest a slightly longer bolt.
At least on my loops, the drain and fill level bolt is rather short compared to the depth of the threaded hole. I have used a 5mm,ish longer bolt and it held just fine. Just make sure that the longer bolt WILL NOT hit the gears.
This may not be a permanent fix, but it will get you by until you need to pull the box for a seal job or the like and then fix the threads.
Good luck,
Tom
-
Awesome, good info.
Dowty washers on the way. Any idea what the thread pitch is?
Edit: I found it
-
May I suggest a slightly longer bolt.
At least on my loops, the drain and fill level bolt is rather short compared to the depth of the threaded hole. I have used a 5mm,ish longer bolt and it held just fine. Just make sure that the longer bolt WILL NOT hit the gears.
This may not be a permanent fix, but it will get you by until you need to pull the box for a seal job or the like and then fix the threads.
Good luck,
Tom
The T3 era rear drive casting is made thinner at the drain and level plugs, so at best there's 2 threads left once the hole is stripped. Might be enough to hold with a "dowty" washers, but maybe not.
Awesome, good info.
Dowty washers on the way. Any idea what the thread pitch is?
Edit: I found it
M10-1.5
-
The T3 era rear drive casting is made thinner at the drain and level plugs, so at best there's 2 threads left once the hole is stripped. Might be enough to hold with a "dowty" washers, but maybe not.
M10-1.5
Thanks Charlie, I didn't know the case was thinner. On my loops, the fix has worked on the rear drive. On the trans, it worked on the level hole, but not for the drain hole.
BTW: I don't ham fist these bolts tight. The issues are on used parts that someone else ham fisted the bolts in.
Tom
-
Thanks Charlie, I didn't know the case was thinner. On my loops, the fix has worked on the rear drive. On the trans, it worked on the level hole, but not for the drain hole.
BTW: I don't ham fist these bolts tight. The issues are on used parts that someone else ham fisted the bolts in.
Tom
Precisely my issue.
-
Installing a helicoil or some such will generate more chips than you expect. I wouldn't chance doing it without stripping it down. Many people are afraid of transmissions, but it's just nuts and bolts. Look at Petes and Johns tutorials, and you'll wonder why you were scared.
"You feeling lucky, punk?" :evil: :smiley:
-
Thanks for the vote of confidence Chuck. I’m going to try one more thing and I’ll report back.
-
Still waiting on parts for my rear drive.
In the meantime I’m looking for headlight parts. Either nice US headlight rings or Euro bucket. I posted in the swap meet.
Cheers!
-
Still waiting on parts for my rear drive.
In the meantime I’m looking for headlight parts. Either nice US headlight rings or Euro bucket. I posted in the swap meet.
Cheers!
I have a very nice US headlight rim with all the adjuster bits. Responded in the Swap Meet thread also.
-
Loving this bike more and more, but I found one thing a bit disconcerting. I only get like 35mpg... I’ve got stock VHB 30s w/stock pilot jets, needles, needle jets, slides and I went up to 145 mains, due to my Bub exhaust and pod filters with the stock velocity stacks. I ride it fairly hard I just figured I could do a bit better than my V11 Lemans... I tried leaning and richening the needle clip but it runs best in the middle where it’s at. It does run good though.
-
So I’ve put about 3k miles on this bike so far and installed LED warning lights this winter, so I’ve never ridden without them. I’ve also been reading that LED lights in the GEN position might be a bad move. I never read why though. The bikes been charging fine once running (13.9v).
Am I living dangerously?
I started reading about the light because my GEN light has been staying on a little longer after startup, but continues to charge well once underway...
-
So I’ve put about 3k miles on this bike so far and installed LED warning lights this winter, so I’ve never ridden without them. I’ve also been reading that LED lights in the GEN position might be a bad move. I never read why though. The bikes been charging fine once running (13.9v).
Am I living dangerously?
I started reading about the light because my GEN light has been staying on a little longer after startup, but continues to charge well once underway...
If it's charging, then no worries. On my Convert, I installed a "bootstrap harness" from Greg Bender that makes sure the Bosch system will charge even if the bulb is blown out.
-
Awesome. Thanks Charlie!
Just to verify my charging system I took the stator off for a quick inspection and found one brush spring uncoiled providing no tension to the front brush. It charges a little sooner in the rev range now it seems.
-
That wouldn't help things.
Have found sometimes on automotive generators that carbon dust can sometimes glue the brush in the holder enough so that any out of roundness in the comm will allow the brush to "bounce" and lose contact.
-
Ive really been bonding with this old girl lately and am still looking for some parts. I have an ad posted in the “Swap Meet”. I’m sure if you’re not actively selling stuff you might not look there, but if you have old Tonti stuff I might be interested.
Thanks
(https://i.ibb.co/12Z4HQZ/4-C4-E93-FC-96-CB-428-F-B08-D-34-D4-EB864668.jpg) (https://ibb.co/12Z4HQZ)
-
So one of my winter issues to sort is the metal crossover fuel line.
I’m wondering though. Why not just run a fuel line from each petcock to the carb?
I’m sure this has been asked before...
-
Best way is to get two double pipe banjos for the carbs...link the two carbs with one outlet, the other goes to the tap.Your way will work but when you hit reserve ....
-
I suppose there is a safety issue with the dual reserves. I get it dueling banjos it is.
Thanks
-
So one of my winter issues to sort is the metal crossover fuel line.
I’m wondering though. Why not just run a fuel line from each petcock to the carb?
I’m sure this has been asked before...
Incase one side of your tank runs dry before the other, though dual banjos will also do the trick, with a hose connecting the carbs
-
In answer to the LED instead of an incandescent bulb for the charge light function: The alternator has no permanent magnets to generate electricity. Instead, the rotor is an electromagnet that generates an electrical flow in the windings around it (the stator).
The small electrical current through the charge light goes to the rotor to initially jump start the electromagnet. Once started, it generates it's own electricity which is fed back into it.
LEDs don't pass enough current to jump start the rotor.
In your case, the rotor has most likely become magnetized to some degree and doesn't need the current that comes through the charge light. Who knows how long this will continue. I've heard of it lasting a year or more. Or it may suddenly not charge one day.
Do as Charlie suggested and install a jumper - I think it's a 250 or 150 ohm resistor - perhaps five watts. I can get the data for you if you want, but it's not critical. If nothing else, approximate the current the original bulb would have flowed.
-
Copy that Wirespokes. I will throw in that resistor.
-
Copy that Wirespokes. I will throw in that resistor.
Greg Bender will sell you a ready made wire with the resistor already in it. $6.75.
28727200: Rectifier to fuse panel.
(https://i.ibb.co/V95DHYL/bootstrap-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/V95DHYL)
-
Ok on to the rear drive.... I’ve got it apart to heli-coil the drain and “level” plugs. I had a big (inner) seal fail this summer. Replaced and she’s been dry.
Here’s my question: The small (outer) seal is new afaik, should I replace it while I’ve got the box apart?
Seems like I could screw a few things up in the process...
Thanks for any input.
-
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it." :wink:
-
You don’t have to tell me twice! The roller bearing is $70 if/when I screw it up.
-
Still a ton of winter left and I’ve got a potential issue that keeps me up at night.
I did the Gilardoni cylinder thing last winter, put about 5k miles on her and all is good.
Then sometime late this summer I stumble on the directions for a SB Gilardoni set.
I don’t remember any discernible difference between the top two rings but the instructions show one having a cleft.
If I got this backwards how bad would it be? If this is what I did do I need a re-hone?
Not really to excited to get the whole top end gasket set again, but will if it’s crucial.
Thanks again
-
Still a ton of winter left and I’ve got a potential issue that keeps me up at night.
I did the Gilardoni cylinder thing last winter, put about 5k miles on her and all is good.
Then sometime late this summer I stumble on the directions for a SB Gilardoni set.
I don’t remember any discernible difference between the top two rings but the instructions show one having a cleft.
If I got this backwards how bad would it be? If this is what I did do I need a re-hone?
Not really to excited to get the whole top end gasket set again, but will if it’s crucial.
Thanks again
Oh dang , I hate it when that happens :laugh:
Dusty
-
JMHO, I don't think you would have any damage at this point. I think if you had a ring up side down, it just wouldn't seal correctly. If you swapped top ring to middle, there I'm not sure. If the rings are the same thickness, there should be no problem.
If your unsure if they are in correctly, pull it apart. Your bike will thank you in the long run.
Tom
-
I’m pretty confident that the rings are facing the correct way, they are labeled “Top”.
That makes me a bit more motivated. I’m not super excited to go through the new gasket re-torque process again.
Live and learn
Thanks for the input.
-
You said you found directions for a "SB" set.
A little latter today, I'll see if I can find the directions that came with the set for my Eldo and see what it says.
Tom
-
You said you found directions for a "SB" set.
A little latter today, I'll see if I can find the directions that came with the set for my Eldo and see what it says.
Tom
That would be awesome!
Thanks
-
It's in Italian and if you look it over, it I think talks about the 850. Here you go:
(https://i.ibb.co/wcmZk3p/20191209-110335.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wcmZk3p) (https://i.ibb.co/8Y2HvrW/20191209-110347.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8Y2HvrW) (https://i.ibb.co/fnVwHKw/20191209-110414.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fnVwHKw)
Hope this helps,
Tom
-
I’ll get the gaskets ordered...
Thanks again Tom!
-
Two hours and it'll be done. You and it will feel better.. :smiley:
-
Ok ok I’ll get to it.
-
Well I broke a freakin ring! The kicker is I’m pretty sure I had it right.
Live and learn...
Now I’ve got to hone a cylinder anyway.
I guess I’ll use this opportunity to bring my heads to the machine shop.
-
Not sure you'll want to hone a Nikasil cylinder.
-
According to HMB in Germany it is required.....first and only place I have ever read that however.Never done it on any nicasil bores ( not Many !) and never had issues but.....
-
I think I’ll just lightly scuff with a scotch brite.
-
Not too sure the cylinder honing is a necessity , and I'm sure I'll hear a lot about this , but if the head gskts aren't damaged I've
reused them numerous times on a number of different bikes and they've never needed a re-torquing . :thumb: . I do however replace
the cyl. base gskts . Peter
-
So first off MG Cycle is awesome. They sent me a spare ring they had laying around the shop.
But now I’m even more confused...
I asked for a top compression ring for an 83mm Gilardoni ring set.
I’ve reviewed the “English” instructions posted on the This Old Tractor website.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_gilardoni_cylinder-_piston-_ring_installation_instructions.html
It says something about certain small blocks having chrome compression rings (top) and all others not identified also having a chrome top ring. Then the picture shows a cleft on the second ring for big blocks is the way I read it.
My original ring set has a chrome-ish ring with a slight cleft and a clearly cleft middle ring(assuming) that was matte.
The new ring has zero cleft and was verified as being a top/compression ring from MG.
I just don’t want to get this wrong.
Does anybody know what goes where? I might be overthinking this but I just want to be done with this and not have to do this again....
Thanks
Bill
-
Look at the pics I posted and the link you posted. The 750/850 should have the "cleft" ring in the middle per the instructions. If I remember right, the rings looked like the instruction sheet. I hate to say this, but if I read your post right, you had two "cleft" rings on one piston. I'm wondering what is on the other side? Or was it a MFG change for the set you have?
Unless someone like Charlie says differently, that is how I would do it and IIRR is how I assembled my bikes.
Tom
-
The rings are going to have to wait, I have a suspicion on what I was seeing.
My heads are at the machine shop but I’m wondering if anybody knows what the valve spring pressure open/closed is supposed to be? I had this for a v11 Sport head
Outside spring
load of 20.33-22.47 Kg at 35 mm (valve closed)
load of 60.8-67.2 Kg at 24.4 mm (valve open)
Inside
load of 9.215-10.185 Kg at 33.5 mm (valve closed)
Is it the same?
Thanks
load of 31.35-34.65 at 22.9 mm (valve open)
-
The rings are going to have to wait, I have a suspicion on what I was seeing.
My heads are at the machine shop but I’m wondering if anybody knows what the valve spring pressure open/closed is supposed to be? I had this for a v11 Sport head
Outside spring
load of 20.33-22.47 Kg at 35 mm (valve closed)
load of 60.8-67.2 Kg at 24.4 mm (valve open)
Inside
load of 9.215-10.185 Kg at 33.5 mm (valve closed)
Is it the same?
Thanks
load of 31.35-34.65 at 22.9 mm (valve open)
Pertinent data here: http://thisoldtractor.com/mg_manuals/workshop_manual_v7sport_750s_850t.pdf
PDF page 19, manual page 17.
-
Dangit, I thought I looked there.
Thanks buddy.
-
After assembling this top end for what feels like the 100th time I noticed weird wear marks on my pushrods, like on the rod itself. My first thought was that must’ve been the wrong head gasket. But it was only on one rod on each side (intake left, exhaust right). Also no wear on the old gasket. To make a long story short it looks like there must be some part of the cylinder (gilardoni 83mm) not quite cast right. :angry:
Looks like I’m not the first to suffer thus either.
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=82697.0
How lazy would I be if I just removed a bit more material off the push rod? I’m just sick of taking this thing apart, plus I just torqued everything together with fresh gaskets.
-
After assembling this top end for what feels like the 100th time I noticed weird wear marks on my pushrods, like on the rod itself. My first thought was that must’ve been the wrong head gasket. But it was only on one rod on each side (intake left, exhaust right). Also no wear on the old gasket. To make a long story short it looks like there must be some part of the cylinder (gilardoni 83mm) not quite cast right. :angry:
Looks like I’m not the first to suffer thus either.
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=82697.0
How lazy would I be if I just removed a bit more material off the push rod? I’m just sick of taking this thing apart, plus I just torqued everything together with fresh gaskets.
IIRC, the pushrod is a hollow tube, so removing material from it could make the wall thickness too thin for adequate strength.
-
Stupid idea on my part. Likely due to my frustration....
Thanks
-
I would not remove anything from the rod itsself.
-
I had contact at the cylinder head with the later fat push rods so milled them for just enough clearance, not that that is the problem here.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/time_warp1959/motorcycle/mgmods/thumbnail_Image-120.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/time_warp1959/motorcycle/mgmods/thumbnail_Image-123.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/time_warp1959/motorcycle/mgmods/thumbnail_Image-124.jpg)
-
I removed a good amount of material from the cylinder. Probably not as elegantly as your heads.
I would recommend that anybody with gilardoni cylinders pop a rocker arm off and check your pushrods next valve adjustment..... :police:
-
Best to check pushrod clearance during assembly.
-
Best to check pushrod clearance during assembly.
Even better! Is there a trick to doing this? Not much room to see with everything together.
-
I for the life of me can’t figure out why I can’t seem to get a good idle.
Cold start it needs choke for a few seconds or so when it’s 50-70f outside. It will idle great until I go for a ride and come to a stop when it’s all warm. Then I need to blip the throttle to keep it running. Adjusting either the idle speed adjustment or idle air screws has little effect.
I’ve adjusted the air screws many times and always end up in the middle of the range (1.5-3 turns).
Most frustrating is that it will eventually idle when throttle is closed.
Stock bore T3 on points
Individual air filters with stock velocity stacks
Bub pipes
50pilot
142main
Stock (new) needle on second to top clip
Atomiser is new and stock size as well
Individual flip chokes.
Could my ignition coils be weak?
I’ve checked for air leaks at the intake....
-
When did you last retorque the heads and adjust the valves?
-
0 miles ago. I’ve tried that a few times. I set the valves at .006/8.
I’m left with a bad top gasket on the carbs...?
Weak coils
or a wrong sized pilot, but it acts like it’s right when adjusting air screws.
-
(Ahem) Carburation problems are generally ignition.. :smiley: :boozing: although it doesn't "sound" like ignition from a few hundred miles away..
-
It doesn’t feel like ignition either. I’ll have a couple pilot jets coming (47 and 52) and see if that helps. If not I’ll try fresh coils, but I’m not hopeful....
-
FWIW I went through my work again and did a quick and dirty compression test with my thumb and found hardly any compression on the left cylinder. Intake valve was super tight. Normally when setting valves I set them rotate the engine and then re-check. I didn’t do that last time after fresh gaskets.... Lesson learned. Hopefully I can take her out next weekend and test.
-
Normally when setting valves I set them rotate the engine and then re-check.
DOH! New gaskets (either base or head) will dramatically change the linear dimensions of your valve train. Likely you will need to re-torque the heads and properly re-adjust the valves three times. First after one or two heat cycles. Again after about 500 miles. Again after about 1,000 miles.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
-
Will do, I’ve never seen such dramatic changes so quick. :thumb:
-
The whole time I’ve had this bike it made some strange rattle around 6k rpm. I always ride with a full face helmet but a couple weeks ago I decided to diagnose this annoying rattle by riding with no helmet. Low and behold she’s pinging...
I went through the distributor last winter and replaced advance springs, etc.
I did a thorough tune up on Saturday and reset timing/points.
Guzziology shows that the low performance distributor should have full advance around 4200rpm (by memory) but this will advance all the way up to... you guessed it 6k rpm.
I tried retarding the timing and it ran like crap and only pinged a little less at 6k.
New timing chain/tensioner, I always run 91 ethanol free, 145 mains, pods w/internal
stacks and Bub exhaust fwiw..
What gives? could I have installed the springs wrong?
Doesn’t look like any Guzzi mechanically advances past 4500rpm.
-
What is the mileage and status of your cylinder heads?
Guzzi does not use seals on the valve guides. After high mileage, the valve guides wear to an oval condition. The suction stroke can then pull raw oil between the intake valve stem and the ovalized valve guide. It takes a VERY tiny amount of oil contamination to cause a dramatic reduction in the relative octane rating of your fuel/air combustion mixture. Just because you paid for 91 fuel doesn't mean that your combustion mixture is still 91. High load pinging is the first sign of impending valve work. Oil consumption and visible smoke come along much later. Warm the bike and ride it down a long steep hill will the throttle backed off. Have someone follow you to see if it generates bluish smoke or stinks like oil at the bottom of the hill.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
-
Sorry forgot to mention. Freshly lined valve guides too. Heads are fresh, compression is 150psi both, leak down test at 80psi showed all most zero loss. Piston crowns look very clean.
-
When you say you retarded the timing a bit , just how much ? Did you use a timing light ? What seems like
a bit at the distributor is frequently much more than you may think it is . After almost a half century of doing
this in shops and on my own bikes , I'm still surprised at how much of a change an almost immeasurable twist of the
distributor results in . And I just bought another timing light to verify the previous remarks . So unless you have
leaner main jets than your motor requires , I'm gonna suggest borrowing a timing light ( if you don't have one ).
As always , good luck . Peter
-
Thanks for the response Peter. When I backed off the timing I had it set to the full advance mark at 6k rpm (when it finally stops advancing). I would say that at that point I had backed off the timing by 3-5 degrees.
Yes do own a timing light.
I guess my question at this point is what would cause this distributor to advance timing so far past its alleged RPM threshold of 4200?
-
Thanks for the response Peter. When I backed off the timing I had it set to the full advance mark at 6k rpm (when it finally stops advancing). I would say that at that point I had backed off the timing by 3-5 degrees.
Yes do own a timing light.
I guess my question at this point is what would cause this distributor to advance timing so far past its alleged RPM threshold of 4200?
I don't have one sitting in front of me, and my memory doesn't remember much about the Guzzi distributor.. but..it sounds to me like *something* is worn out. It's mechanical after all.. a guy should be able to figure it out with some measuring. Sorry, but that's the best I can do.
-
You’re right Chuck... I just wanted to verify if this dizzy isn’t operating correct. I’ve seen ignition curves and read how to check dynamic timing but some say to check at full advance and some say to check at ....RPM. I’ll tear into it again... Waiting on a clutch cable anyway.
-
I don't completely understand the cause/effect as it would apply to your pinging issue, but I've read lots of accounts of owners that have had problems caused by the poor quality of a lot of the new ignition parts available, ie condensers,points and springs.
Is it possible that the new springs you installed over the winter could be part of the problem not solution?
Just thinking out loud, fwiw.
Good luck
Kelly
-
Thinking this through logically, stiffer springs would delay full advance. If the timing doesn't jump around I don't think wear is the issue.
One way of handling pinging is to smooth out sharp edges in the combustion chamber. The idea is that sharp edges radiate energy that can ignite fuel.
-
Timing is as steady as I’ve ever seen a Guzzi or comparable engine. I’m pretty content with the operation of the combustion chamber etc. I’m (rightfully or wrongfully) stuck on the advance. I just don’t know or know why if it’s supposed to advance so far past 4200. Maybe I should post a pic of the timing.
-
Ive not worked on a Guzzi Dist, so I might be wayyyy off base. I spent a LOT of time recurving automotive distributers though. So could be a few things.. Its advancing too slowly, so its taking that long to get full advance.. or the curve is right... its just advancing too far. It was common to mix and match springs, weights, cams, and stop bushings to get what you were looking for. Ill say it is strange to me that its only pinging at that high RPM. Normaly you see it at lower rpm when its pulling through a heavy load.
-
So I can confidently say that it is advancing too far. As far as if it is hitting the curve too late I am not sure.
Here’s my process
Rebuilt dizzy
Set gap
Set static timing
Checked dynamic, full advance is right where it should be at 4K or so RPM, past that it pulls past full advanced mark and when on the road it will start pinging past 5500RPM.
FWIW the static mark does show up at idle probably a bit advanced but visible in the window.
-
I'm not going to re-read the whole thread. Here are some thoughts.
Dual point dist correct? I have not used one, but I read they can be a bear to set up. Get one side timed and then the other is off.
Are you sure your looking at the TDC and the static advance for the correct side?
I'm playing with a V1000 engine. I'm using a single point Loop dist.. Depending on static timing, your full advance will change. For instance my 2deg will give me 33deg full advance. If I moved it up to 5dsg, that would raise the full.
Good luck,
Tom
-
I'm less convinced that distributor wear is leading to the extended rpm necessary to get full advance.
Wear ( if there's lots ) , could lead to a rather retarded low speed ignition timing . Assuming , as he has
said , that the full advance is correct.
But if the spring set is too high a tension , then attaining full advance will simply require more rpm . And if
the timing mark at full advance looks stable , then wear is less likely the problem . I've seen ( years ago ) a
Le Mans 2 with the distributor gear so worn that you could watch the timing at steady engine speed literally
wander in and out of the timing inspection hole . That caused erratic running .
That the engine at idle responds to low speed mixture adjustments is no guarantee the the idle jet is the
best one for your engine . When I'm in doubt about jet selection I try more major changes (ie; 40 to 45 or 35 )
and it's then easier to sense which direction to go for more fine tuning , small changes are not always so convincing
at the beginning . Keep us posted , this has been one heck of a process ,( having read from the beginning).
Peter
-
I pulled the distributor and it looks like the higher tensile spring is a few tenths of an inch too long. I can easily pull it to full advance with minimal resistance. I ordered another new set of springs hopefully that solves it....
-
If the full advance mark is lined up at the correct RPM, then the springs are good.
The problem is the advance weights aren't up against the stops, so can fling out farther (advancing the timing) as RPM rises. I'm not so familiar with these distributors yet to see them in my memory, so can't tell you how to do it, but you need to take a look and figure out how to stop the weights sooner.
-
@Wirespokes, I thought about that too, but since Guzzi used the same distributor (weights, etc) for high and low perf bikes (higher advance). Wouldn’t that mean that the springs would have to be the only way to stop advance?
I just can’t find anyway that the weights could’ve been in there wrong.
-
I can't imagine designing an advance system that doesn't have a positive stop for full advance? Shirley :smiley: the springs alone don't do that..
-
I suppose static timing could be more advanced on the “high performance” distributor...
I’m even more confused. I guess I need to buy a MK1 Lemans for comparison research to make sense of all this... :cool:
-
I apologize for not reading the entire thread... How's your timing chain and tensioner? Excessive slack in the chain would certainly cause timing inaccuracy, right?
-
You're over-thinking this!
The weights and springs are the controlling and regulating factors for the spark advance.
That's all.
Your timing is spot-on at idle and full advance. Except...
It keeps going once it's reached max advance.
That can mean only one thing: The weights aren't stopping at the maximum advance setting.
You need to find out why that is and fix it. You'll have to dig down there and see what's up. I don't have a distributor apart at the moment so can't describe what's going on. But in a half hour you could have it apart, spot what the issue is, fix it, and have it all back together and running as it should.
It's not a big deal! Really.
-
(https://i.ibb.co/d4RNfpM/distributor-005.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d4RNfpM)
(https://i.ibb.co/fnWVW6z/distributor-002.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fnWVW6z)
(https://i.ibb.co/MGvNg1R/distributor-003.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MGvNg1R)
(https://i.ibb.co/HGFjXPZ/distributor-004.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HGFjXPZ)
Here are pictures of one of 2 distributors I have on my bench , from Le Mans 2 .
-
On the last pic you see the bottom of the advance unit and it's 2 pins , the third pic simply shows how the distributor looks when the advance unit is removed .
The first pic shows the slots in the bottom plate that are responsible for hard limiting the advance . The second pic shows one of the advance springs position
which is loose on the pin , this is correct ( for the Le Mans 2 ) . So , if your ignition is still advancing up to 6000rpm then the pins and slots must be very worn or
the spring set is incorrect ( I doubt anyone would have lightened the advance weights so much that it required that kind of rpm to get to full advance ) . But if you're
not sure , then compare it to these pics . The pinging at higher rpm could definitely be the over advanced timing at the higher rpm . This statement is only valid if
you had set the timing at 4500 rpm . Also I should mention that the advance weights must be free to move on their locating pins . Peter
-
Very helpful, thanks Peter. I will compare my distributor when I get home. :bow:
-
Thanks again Peter. After looking at my weights, pins, etc. I don’t see anything different. If anything the locating pins on the underside of the advancing unit look less worn than yours.
With the advance unit on in full advance I get 29.4mm on the outside of the pins where the springs would go.
-
Well if the springs are okay (correct ) , reassemble and set full advance timing for where the advance stops and try it from there . This has
my interest . Good luck , Peter
-
No telling if something wasn’t right before I took it apart. I’ll report back when my new springs come in.
-
I took my spare apart and saw the same as pictured above.
Dave Richardson used a distributor tester to determine these Marelli distributors have 26 degrees of total advance. The springs don't limit full advance, I'm pretty sure the downward facing pins hit the end of the slotted holes they ride in.
A Guzziology graph of the LM distributor curve shows it starting about 1500 RPM and maxing out around 4500 RPM at 34 degrees.
I see no logical explanation how your timing could be correct statically and at full advance, yet continue advancing beyond that. There is an untruth in that statement somewhere.
Seems like the solution is setting full advance maxing out at around 4-4500 RPM. The springs only determine how quickly or slowly max advance arrives.
-
There was a noticeable difference in the new set of springs I got, the heavier spring is definitely shorter. Unfortunately though it did not change things. I was hoping that I somehow put things together wrong the first time and that I’d be fixing it by putting it back together.
Anyway it still does the same thing, after setting static I check at 4200 rpm and it’s right on but continues to advance not a lot mind you.... I’m going to try to retard it at bit and hope it doesn’t run like a turd. Otherwise I’m going to have to look in the timing chest.
-
I have to update this in case 100years from now somebody is having the same problem.
Mark from MG Classics sent me a known good dizzy and I had the same issue of over advancing.
So I went back through the timing chest having replace the tensioner last year and my conscience had me thinking about how rough with the valtek style piece I was when installing. I installed a fresh one a bit more gently.... same exact thing.
:angry:
-
I’ve been noticing some extra metal in my trans oil lately. Shifting not great going from 2nd to first. Then my output seal was puking a bit of oil.
So I’m going through the transmission.... again.
I replaced bearings I should’ve the last time I had it apart and attempted to get that freaking selector spring to lay flat. Well I got the bearings replaced atleast... I also decided to give shimming the selector drum a shot too.
I stripped the housing except the drum and found it sloppy with the cover on so I added a shim, too much... deleted one from the cover side, a bit of slop, etc. I got it perfect likely adding only a bout .5mm or less. It looks like my shifting forks were more worn on the front (engine) side. So that was where I added the total shim, if that makes sense.
Not sure if any of this is important but after re-assembly I cannot shift into 2nd. Neutral and first are no problem.
I can turn the drum when the cover is off and the selector moves freely when the cover is off too.
Could my shimming have caused this? I’m lost...
-
It's been 4 1/2 years since the last post. Did the bike get sorted and trouble-free?
Was there a resolution to the advance issues?
-
I think so,I bought the bike and it runs great.
-
That's great!
It would be nice to know what solved the issues, especially the advance springs since I'm dealing with that now.
-
Ask Czakky.He is on WG.
-
The main jets were way too big when I checked them. Dropping them to just above stock picked up the performance nicely. I don't know if that problem was confounded with spring advance.
-
How big were the jets? I have a mildly modified T-3 with the big bore kit, early V-7 Sport cam and 36mm carbs. 130 mains seemed to run out the best.
GliderJohn
-
How big were the jets? I have a mildly modified T-3 with the big bore kit, early V-7 Sport cam and 36mm carbs. 130 mains seemed to run out the best.
GliderJohn
142 I think. Tkelly might remember, or I may have a note I can check after the 15th.
-
Since Dellorto jet numbers are diameters (unlike Mikuni numbers) these are the mixture flow values relative to the stock 120 jets, for several common sizes.
122 --> 3.4% more flow
125 --> 8.5%
130 --> 17%
135 --> 27%
140 --> 36%
142 --> 40%
With 142's installed Tkelly's bike smelled like a gasoline spill to riders following him, and had poor response. I put in 125's, roughly corresponding to the 10% greater flow recommended in Guzziology for lightly modified engines. I recall his bike has stock VHB 30mm carburetors, so I was thinking of installing [EDIT:] stock 120 122 jets.