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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: old head on February 09, 2019, 11:49:26 AM
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Anyone,
After installing a Lithium battery a few years back, the bike has refused to crank when the temp gets around 60, It usually takes several jabs at the starter button, and eventually, moving from clicks to gradual engagement of the starter. Now this can be anywhere from 2 or clicks or many more depending on the temperature. Usually, I just jump it off from my boat battery if I riding when its cooler. Usually, after its ridden the battery works the rest of the day.
However, I got tired of this so I a ordered new AGM online, 18 amp hour. It came with a 11.5 volt charge when I opened it, so I charged it with a 2amp charger. It charged for about 4 hours and ended up with a 12.6 on my meter. I installed the battery, cleaning the connections, although they weren't corroded. the dash showed 12.6 volts.
Next morning I loaded the bike for my annual trip to Dallas for work meeting, about 450 miles each way. the dash showed 12.6 volts, the temp was about 65, got one click then it fired right up. Dash shows 13.4 volts with the motor running. Stopped for gas about 3 hours later, took about a 20 minute break, and it fired right up. next 2 stops same result, no clicks, fired right up, all good. The next 2 days temps in the 60's in Dallas all good, no issues. One morning low 60's got 1 click as I remember.
Friday morning, 29 and the first real test. It failed miserably. Would only click, not even a nudge from the starter. Got one the guys from work to jump me off, fired right off with no clicks. Dash shows 13.+ volts when running. Stopped for gas, it was 30 and no crank, just clicks. Luckily, I got a jump.
Second stop for about 40, it fired up right after finishing filling up, so I pulled to the store and went inside to warm up for about 20 minutes. Came back out, and nothing but clicks, had to bump start it. Next stop temp about 42, this time it fired right up so again I went inside came back pretty quick. It clicked 2 times then fired off.
this morning its 58 and all I get are clicks.
So what are the possible problems? I am thinking maybe a sticking solenoid, defective hot cable to starter, bad ground? Will be checking all connections, but I don't thnk this is the issue, as it never fails to crank when its over 70, ever. I guess I could have a bad new battery, but seems unlikely.
Relay?
I did the Startus Imterrupus many years ago, and never had any issues until the Lithium battery. I assumed it was the batter all this time, as the dash always showed the Lithium battery with less than 12 volts when its cool. Prior to Litium battery, never had an issue cranking in cold weather.
Old Head
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You have the right idea on what to look at, check the startus interuptus connections also. I would be checking the alternator for output that's going into your battery. Should be well over 13V. It could even be the starter w/bad connections. You'll find it.
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Anyone,
So what are the possible problems? I am thinking maybe a sticking solenoid, defective hot cable to starter, bad ground? Will be checking all connections, but I don't thnk this is the issue, as it never fails to crank when its over 70, ever. I guess I could have a bad new battery, but seems unlikely.
Next time it fails to crank, run a lead from the battery positive down to the solenoid on the starter motor. If it turns over, you still have startus interruptus, if not then it's possibly a defective starter or your new battery.
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Next time it fails to crank, run a lead from the battery positive down to the solenoid on the starter motor. If it turns over, you still have startus interruptus, if not then it's possibly a defective starter or your new battery.
That is a great idea, Dave! Good way to rule out the starter/solenoid as the culprit, and narrow down the diagnosis a bit. :thumb:
Rick.
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However, I got tired of this so I a ordered new AGM online, 18 amp hour. It came with a 11.5 volt charge when I opened it, so I charged it with a 2amp charger. It charged for about 4 hours and ended up with a 12.6 on my meter. I installed the battery, cleaning the connections, although they weren't corroded. the dash showed 12.6 volts.
If the AGM has sat on a shelf for very long at 11.5V, it has probably sulfated a good bit. Sitting for long below about 12.1V quickly leads to problems. 11.5V is dead, and almost certain to be a big issue.
12.6V when just removed from the chargers isn't great. 12.6V is what you would see after sitting overnight uncharged. From the Odyssey manual referring to a battery that has sat for 6 or more hours, "a healthy, fully charged ODYSSEY battery will have an OCV of 12.84V or higher at 77ºF (25ºC)."
Plus, a basically dead battery may need a lot more that a 4 hour charge. Absorption charge tends to need 14.7V for 8 hours.
The working jump start tends to indicate it is a battery (or charging) problem, not a bad starter.
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I would not buy a AGM battery off the shelf that has already been activated. I would buy one and add the acid myself Open the vent plugs, add acid per instructions. Leave the caps off and cover with a clean cloth and let the battery sit for 24 hours with NO charger! Once it has sat for 24 hrs charge overnight with a small rate charger and once completely charged install the caps.
You may have enough volts but not amps
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If you read the manual, an AGM needs to be "conditioned." It will take overnight with a dedicated charger that charges at a minimum of 6 amps at no more than 15 volts.
As Wayne says above, that battery was dead when new.. probably sitting on the shelf for years.
I have an Odyssey charger that has brought one back from the grave. It was doing exactly what yours is doing.
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this morning its 58 and all I get are clicks.
Also, when you say 'clicks', do you mean a very faint hard to hear click under the seat. Or do you mean a loud CLUNK at the starter?
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Put a meter across battery and see how far the voltage drops when it goes 'clicky clicky'
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1100 Breva? Had similar problems and don't assume your new battery is good. I had the same problem and did the
MPH startus interruptus fix. While my battery was showing good voltage I still had starting issues. Mine would start when warm here in middle TN but once the temps would drop no start. In the end it was a BAD new battery.
First make sure you have a good battery and do a load test.
Remove and clean all battery connections and clean. Also check the ground behind the starter and make sure it's clean and tight. Be careful not to snap/break the bolt. Also it's not as bad idea to do away with that short ground cable and make a new one and ground it to the back of the gear box.
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Also, when you say 'clicks', do you mean a very faint hard to hear click under the seat. Or do you mean a loud CLUNK at the starter?
Its more than the relay click, but its not the starter trying to engage. I sounds like the solenoid trying to engage. when the starter starts to engage, its very noticeable.
My brother says it probably a bad ground, he had a John Deere that was doing the same thing and he said the starter wasn't grounding to the motor. He removed it, cleaned it up and it worked after he got the starter to ground to the motor.
I am gonna start with the running another wire to the solenoid after I fully charge the battery, and see if the starter engages when I bypass the wiring of the starter button.
next would be checking all the cables to the starter, solenoid, and ground wires, and see where that takes me.
Its just odd that it only happens when its cool, hot weather never have a issue. I will report my findings as I move through all the suggests everyone has suggested, and see what happens. I am still leaning toward a bad new battery, but we will see. I will take it to the local battery place and have them test it with load, if nothing is found.
Old Head
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I’d be looking at the earthing of the engine. I had this happen on my SPIII after many years without issues after putting in a dedicated start relay. I used a direct wire from positive to the solenoid and the issue remained. So I used a jumper lead from the stud of the starter motor mount bolt to the negative terminal, problem found. Confirmed it with a meter also. On both my bikes I now have a dedicated earth to the motor as well as the frame at the top gearbox to engine mounting stud.
Good luck
Adam
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Maybe give this a read, sorta sounds like what I went through:
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=99554.0;nowap
Good luck,
Tom
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OH, why do you find it odd that it only happens cold? That makes perfect sense. A cold motor takes more power to turn over and a cold battery provides less power.
So it's the most common time problems with borderline battery condition and/or connections would reveal themselves.
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Maybe give this a read, sorta sounds like what I went through:
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=99554.0;nowap
Good luck,
Tom
I was wondering when you were going to post.. :grin:
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Before doing anything with wires, starter ect you must isolate the obvious aka first things first.
Make sure that the battery condition %100 before anything.
Only after making sure about the condition of the battery would I move forward.
It has only been within the past 2 months that I experienced the same issues with my 1100 Breva. I had a battery that was right at one year old and was showing 12.5 volts and would start from time to time. I checked a few obvious things such as grounds ect. I even took my starter out of the bike and made sure that it would spin/crank under NO load. I as well did not want to believe my one year old MotoBatt battery was no good till I did a load test. Do NOT assume that the new battery you got is a good one. You have no idea what care or lack of went into preparing the battery that you purchased. I would recommend buying a genuine (not an equivalent to) Yuasa battery and follow the instructions on the video link. I would also let the acid sit in the battery overnight to make sure it absorbs the mats thoroughly before charging.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xpg10yp4duo
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checked battery this morning. I got home about 930 pm Friday night. Hadn't done anything until this morning and the battery shows 12.0 volts with my meter and the dash readout on the bike. so it seems it is either a battery or a charging system, maybe lose ground. I can't see anyway the battery would be that low after a 500+ day after sitting 2 days. I wish I had checked it when I pulled into the shed, but I was too cold to think about it. I checked it a couple of times while running and it showed 13.5 or 13.6 volts each time I checked it, so I would think the alternator is good.
I put my charger on it and we will see. May go have it load tested after charging. battery shows 13.1 volts while connected to charger. I will check in a couple of hours and see where its at.
Old Head
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As I mentioned above, if an AGM isn't "conditioned" properly, it will never hold a proper charge. <shrug> We did a long thread at the V11 Lemans forum relating to this.
All you need to know about maintaining AGM batteries here:
https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=18838
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No beating around the bush, you need to get it load tested then replaced.
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2 hours on a 6amp charger the battery reads 14.3 volts with charger off. I put on the 2amp trickle charger to see what happens.
Old head
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2 hours on a 6amp charger the battery reads 14.3 volts with charger off. I put on the 2amp trickle charger to see what happens
No load voltage readings are basically a waste of time. There may be a tiny bit of the battery that is still good providing that voltage but then cannot provide any current when the load demands.
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No load voltage readings are basically a waste of time. There may be a tiny bit of the battery that is still good providing that voltage but then cannot provide any current when the load demands.
that's a good point. you need to take the surface charge off by turning on the headlight, take your reading while cranking. if it drops to roughly ten volts or less, it'll need to be conditioned like Chuck says. Your starter may also need a freshening. the wireing may also need correction, keep at it you'll find it. I have an older Schumacher model SE-1010-2 charger that is 10/2 amps that works well on absorbed matt batteries because on 10 amps it limits the voltage to 15v and then on 2 amps it goes to 14 volts as the battery charges
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checked battery this morning. I got home about 930 pm Friday night. Hadn't done anything until this morning and the battery shows 12.0 volts with my meter and the dash readout on the bike.
Needs a good charge and load test. Those numbers indicate to me the battery is VERY suspect.
Have you checked to see if you can get it replaced? I think they sold you a battery that had been on the shelf way too long.
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Update
I took the battery to Auto Zone close by and did a load test. they said they tested it at 150, as I didn't know what the CCA rating is. The battery showed full charge and tested good.
I am still not sure that it was tested properly, but what do I know.
At any rate, I came home put the battery in and all I got was clicks. Its 78 now, so it should have started but didn't.
so I pulled the battery and cleaned the cables at the battery.
Next went to the ground, the lug was tight but seemed wobbly to me coming out. Cleaned the cables, again looked pretty good, some black on the copper ends but I sanded them off clean. I also cleaned the base of the lug, it had some discoloration also, Ohm meter show 6.71 before cleaning and now it shows .1 so that's a good sign I think.
However, the lug won't go back in the threaded hole, looks to be worn out. I tried for several minutes but to no avail to get the lug to go in by hand no go. I have a call in a friend who is a machinist and see if he has time to come by and take a look. Don't want to make it worse.
pulled the positive off and cleaned it also, again some slight discoloration, but nothing that I would have thought to impede the power, but you never know.
I wanted to crank it and measure how much voltage drop and report back, but it won't crank, so after I get the ground fixed I will report back.
the battery has a voltage of 13.1 volts after the load test. I put the 2 amp charger on it then measure it again, and see where the voltage ends up after I get the ground lug fixed.
Old Head.
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the battery has a voltage of 13.1 volts after the load test.
That is a very good sign that the battery is OK.
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That is a very good sign that the battery is OK.
thanks, hopefully all it needed was a good cleaning. Friend will be by one day this week to take a look about the lug being wobbly.
Old Head
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Dirty connections and iffy wiring have sold many a new battery.
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Well,,
assume this is your Breva 1100? If so the alternator is probably not your issue. That said if you test voltage at just over idle, say 2K RPM you should have 14.2-5 Volts.
Lithium batts are infamous for their cold weather (non) performance.
What AGM battery did you use pray tell? Did you spring for the $$Odyssey?
Even my '76 850T3 would start reliably into the 50's with a $20 lawn & garden tractor battery.
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thanks, hopefully all it needed was a good cleaning. Friend will be by one day this week to take a look about the lug being wobbly.
Old Head
Have a new longer ground wire made and ground it to the back of your gear box.
Remove the old ground wire that is fastened to the "wobbly lug" and reinstall. If secure just use the "wobbly lug" for the plastic starter cover.
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Okay, my bud came by and retapped the lug where the ground cables are connected to the starter. I cleaned all the cables, and my ohm meter shows 6.8 from battery to lug through the connections. Meter shows 6.8 from battery to engine and from battery to starter. Maybe I need to reclean the cables, bolt, and bases again.
I checked my Jeep from battery to engine block and its only .2 to .3 at several places. So it would seem that 6.8 on the Breva is high resistance. Is a 6.8 high enough to keep it from cranking? Maybe the ground cable is corroded inside where I can't see.
I guess I can use a jumper cable to see if it cranks with a jumper cable to the battery and lug bypassing the ground cable, or trying a different ground to complete the circuit.
I charged the battery on Monday with my 2amp charger and it only showed 12.1 volts today, and of course all I got was clicks at the starter, its about 51 this morning. Dash shows 12.1 volts, meter shows 12.2. I didn't check the battery when the charger cut off, so I put it back on the charger and will check when the charger cuts off.
could be a couple things combined to keep it from cranking, I suppose.
Old Head
I may go have the battery rechecked on Monday as Autozone said it was good, but I question it as I don't think it would be that low on charge with not being connected and just being charged a few days ago. However, I need to check the voltage after its charged to compare the charge with the drop in voltage.
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measured .1 ohm meter on my jumper cables.
hooked one end to the lug on the starter, one end to the battery lug, and it fired right up, no clicks.
Disconnected the jumper cable and it just clicks. So now I know its definitely the ground connection. It has to be the cable as I didn't disconnect anything.
I will clean the cable and connections one more time just be sure, but it looks like time for a new ground cable.
Old Head
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Okay, my bud came by and retapped the lug where the ground cables are connected to the starter. I cleaned all the cables, and my ohm meter shows 6.8 from battery to lug through the connections. Meter shows 6.8 from battery to engine and from battery to starter. Maybe I need to reclean the cables, bolt, and bases again.
I checked my Jeep from battery to engine block and its only .2 to .3 at several places. So it would seem that 6.8 on the Breva is high resistance. Is a 6.8 high enough to keep it from cranking? Maybe the ground cable is corroded inside where I can't see.
I guess I can use a jumper cable to see if it cranks with a jumper cable to the battery and lug bypassing the ground cable, or trying a different ground to complete the circuit.
I charged the battery on Monday with my 2amp charger and it only showed 12.1 volts today, and of course all I got was clicks at the starter, its about 51 this morning. Dash shows 12.1 volts, meter shows 12.2. I didn't check the battery when the charger cut off, so I put it back on the charger and will check when the charger cuts off.
could be a couple things combined to keep it from cranking, I suppose.
Old Head
I may go have the battery rechecked on Monday as Autozone said it was good, but I question it as I don't think it would be that low on charge with not being connected and just being charged a few days ago. However, I need to check the voltage after its charged to compare the charge with the drop in voltage.
6.8 is ridiculously high. In this case it is like an open circuit.
Note, you are dealing with a resistance so low, a normal meter will have trouble measure it correctly.
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6.8 is ridiculously high. In this case it is like an open circuit.
Note, you are dealing with a resistance so low, a normal meter will have trouble measure it correctly.
Thanks Wayne, I had no idea what it should be, but when I checked my Jeep and saw the huge difference in reading I figured it was as problem. Its good to learn new stuff.
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Thanks Wayne, I had no idea what it should be, but when I checked my Jeep and saw the huge difference in reading I figured it was as problem. Its good to learn new stuff.
With a regular meter, touching the probes together, and measuring the ground wire, should give very close to the same reading.
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cleaned ground cables, again. Now it reads .1 from starter lug to battery lug. only clicked 2 times and it started, so that's an improvement, but still not right yet.
I checked the positive cable it reads .1 on the meter also.
the charger said fully charger, the reads 12.5v on the meter and on the dash readout. That looks low to me, I thought batteries would be closer to 13+ volts when fully charged.
Old Head
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cleaned ground cables, again. Now it reads .1 from starter lug to battery lug. only clicked 2 times and it started, so that's an improvement, but still not right yet.
I checked the positive cable it reads .1 on the meter also.
the charger said fully charger, the reads 12.5v on the meter and on the dash readout. That looks low to me, I thought batteries would be closer to 13+ volts when fully charged.
Old Head
Been there...done all of this and in the end I had a bad battery. You keep looking at volts and not amps! I'll give you 3 batteries (I need to bring to recycle center) sitting in my garage that will show good voltage but will not crank to specs. For your Breva 1100 get yourself a Yuasa AGM YUAM6220C battery..NOT off the shelf fully charged but dry and prep it yourself in the correct fashion that has been laid out in this thread. I have been there in the same situation last year and ride/start by bike in 25 degree on up weather without and issue. Don't trust what the dash meter is telling you as at times I have seen it read 11.5 volts and start in 25 degree weather.
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Can you get a reading across the battery, not on the leads but directly on the battery terminals without touching the terminal lugs, poke the sharp points into the terminals.
Then while holding your meter in place try the starter, if it doesn't fall below 11 it has plenty of Voltage to start if the Voltage dips its too much load for the battery.
Did you ever answer Wayne's question about the click you hear, the quiet click of the relay under the seat or the clunk of the starter engaging.
I don't think its so in your case because you have had it out several times but It's possible to get a build up of lead oxide on the terminals, this can effectively insulate the battery from the leads, scrape the connections and smear with vaseline and it won't happen. This Lead oxide is often what you see when you try to measure the leads, the oxide layer is insulating the terminal from the meter resulting in several Ohms, as Wayne says it should be as low as the meter will read but you may have to jab the meter tips into the metal.
The Breva is well known for suffering from Startus Interrupts, run a new wire from the starter solenoid spade to the battery then you can touch it onto the battery and eliminate the wiring as a fault.
The Veleo starter magnets can come loose and jamb the starter but that would be accompanied by a good healthy clunk from the starter
Another thing I have seen is a bad ground, there are several and sometimes it's only a weak one holding the battery to chassis, several Guzzis I know of have caught fire through this.
As Kiwi Dave says if you run separate wire from the starter solenoid that you can touch on the battery it will eliminate any of the wires that cause Startus Interrupts, this will quickly eliminate most common faults, all you have is the battery, the starter and the interconnecting wires.
As if there are not enough starter faults I recently saw a loose spade connector on the solenoid, make sure that's nice and tight.
There are a few other possibilities, batteries can be quite tricky at times.
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cleaned ground cables, again. Now it reads .1 from starter lug to battery lug. only clicked 2 times and it started, so that's an improvement, but still not right yet.
I checked the positive cable it reads .1 on the meter also.
the charger said fully charger, the reads 12.5v on the meter and on the dash readout. That looks low to me, I thought batteries would be closer to 13+ volts when fully charged.
The .1 ohms on the meter does not mean much. At the 100 amps give or take the starter needs, that is a 10 volt drop. But as mentioned, a normal meter can't really read it. Quicker and more useful is as Roy pointed out. Read the voltage at the battery post. See what it drops to when you try to crank it.
A faint relay click under the seat and no loud CLANK of the solenoid, startup interruptus.
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If you think you might have a negative earth issue(I thought I did) is to run another ground wire from the battery to one of the bolts on the gear box.
You stated at the start of this thread:
However, I got tired of this so I a ordered new AGM online, 18 amp hour. It came with a 11.5 volt charge when I opened it, so I charged it with a 2amp charger. It charged for about 4 hours and ended up with a 12.6 on my meter. I installed the battery, cleaning the connections, although they weren't corroded. the dash showed 12.6 volts.
Note, you purchased a AGM battery online that already had acid and charged. You have no idea how long or what went into the preparation of this battery. Again note, be there done that! Go and buy yourself a new Yuasa AGM battery that has the acid in a separate/sealed container. Place the battery on your bench and remove the fill ports and place them to the side. Now fill the batteries chambers with the new acid from the container slowly and place a clean rag on top of the battery for 24 hours. Just let the battery sit for 24 hours with NO charge on it. After 24 hours (leaving the battery ports still open with a rag on top) hook up a small rate trickle charger overnight till fully charged.
Old Head...last year I went through everything you were doing and kept saying my battery is new and good but it wasn't. I finally listened to my good friend and Breva 1100 owner since new and have been worry free with starting ever since no matter what the outside temps are. A sign of a BAD battery is no cranking issue in cold weather...you are showing good volts but forget about the volts it's how many AMPS that actual battery has.
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measured .1 ohm meter on my jumper cables.
hooked one end to the lug on the starter, one end to the battery lug, and it fired right up, no clicks.
Disconnected the jumper cable and it just clicks. So now I know its definitely the ground connection. It has to be the cable as I didn't disconnect anything.
I will clean the cable and connections one more time just be sure, but it looks like time for a new ground cable.
Old Head
If I'm reading this right. You used a set of automotive jumper cables and attached one of the pair of cables to the starter and one to the battery. From the description, it looks like you attached to the positive terminals? Set up like this it started right up. Removed the jumper cable and it just clicks again.
Did you use both positive and ground cables when you tested? If so, try only one of the pair.
As mentioned, what is clicking??? The solenoid on the starter or the relay under the seat?? This will help the guys that know startus interruptus and how to solve it.
With this said. I chased my HD battery issue thinking it was a bad starter, bad battery wires or their connections. I also tried a new set of car battery cables to see if it would crank right. It turned out to be a battery without enough cranking amps.
If you used the jumper cables like I think you did, I would say it's a bad cable. But, another test might be to use your jumper cables and hook them to you Jeep battery and the bike battery. If you still just get a click, then it's a cable. If it starts right up, it's most likly the battery.
Hope this helps a bit, good luck,
Tom
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lets see
I did the startus interruptus a few years ago, kit from MPH.
the click is definitely coming from the starter, its a heavy sound, not the usual light click of relay.
Each time I touch a battery connnection, it gets light coat of grease after tightening.
I will check the battery as suggested, and report back. I still think its a bad ground, just has that feel to it. No rhyme or reason, just feeling. Although, I am not confident in the battery based on the voltage readings after charging, and checking the voltage after a couple of days.
If I jump it off a car battery it fires right up, no issues. Well, that's what I did in Dallas when it was 29. As I said, I would start if I restarted right after turning it off, but more than a few minutes no start.
I hadn't thought of running a wire directly to the solenoid, done that many times on cars, old age I guess.
Old Head
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lets see
If I jump it off a car battery it fires right up, no issues. Well, that's what I did in Dallas when it was 29. As I said, I would start if I restarted right after turning it off, but more than a few minutes no start.
Old Head
Hate to say it, but it sounds like the battery to me. One last thing you might try. Remove the battery cables from your battery and use the jumper cables from the bike cables to your Jeep battery. If it starts, I'm really thinking battery.
My 2014 F150 had a battery issue where the truck would tell me to start or turn the key off...low battery. Both Ford and O'Rielly Auto said the battery was fine. The battery had a charge indicator on it that would never go to green even after many hours of charging. Bought a new battery and no problems after 2 years.
Good luck,
Tom
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If you connect your meter to chassis and dig the tip into the battery Negative terminal (not the lug) it should read zero Volts
When you press start it will tell you how much Voltage is being lost in the Negative lead, the lower it reads the better.
You can do the same for the Positive lead, connect one lead to the larger hot lead at the solenoid, jab the other into the battery + terminal
I wouldn't expect a combined Voltage drop much more than 0.5 Volts.
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update
I ran a wire directly to the solenoid and it cranks everytime. Tried it about 8 times, and every time it cranks.
put the stock wire back on and all I get are clicks, heavy but still clicks.
pulled the fuse at the MPH hot wire, it checks good. checked power at relay on the female side and it shows same voltage as battery.
There is some corrosion on the male ends of the relay and some on the female ends of the plug that fits the relay. I disconnected the MPH bypass, and hooked the relay up the factory had it and I get heavy clicks. Swapped a relay with another one, with MPH bypass in in line, same result, just clicks.
So I assume not enough amperage getting to the solenoid. Should I replace the relay? I tried to sand the male connectors but its hard to get in there with paper and apply any kind of pressure.
the battery voltage was 12.8 and dropped to 8.5 - 9 when cranking, but returned to over 12 volts when I stopped cranking. Does that indicate a bad battery?
Old Head
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Are we talking an 06 Breva 1100
I would wire it in directly without the MPH relay
No doubt it's the corrosion you mention
The MPH fix is a good solution for someone who's reluctant to change anything but it's adding more parts.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2005_Breva_1100.gif
Look at relay (3), click on the diagram a second time to zoom in.
See the yellow wire below the relay, that comes through a fuse from the ignition switch I call this the weak yellow wire, The MPH fix replaces that feed with a new one.
Assuming your MPH relay has had its day.
Remove the extra socket and wiring.
Snip the yellow wire at a point below relay socket (3) where you can join to it a No 14 directly back to the battery through a 15 or 20 Amp fuse. (you might re-use the one that came with the kit)
So now you have a Strong Yellow feed to relay (3)
Replace the relay, I find they never make good contact again after corrosion.
Tape the other half of the yellow wire coming from the switch (9) so it can't short to ground.
While you are about it check the spade connector at the solenoid it may be corroded as well if so use some new parts and then dip it in Vaseline so the grease gets into the crimp joint as well, that will stop further corrosion. I'm going to check these out they may be a more robust solution, there has to be a better solution than those cheap Auto store connectors.
https://techspan.ca/details/techspan-electrical-terminals-high-temperature-terminals-289
They should make a good connection slathered with some grease and a sleeve.
The Starter solenoid is a hungry little devil, it would like 45 to 50 Amps but just for a split second. There are two coils involved, a 10 Amp and a 40 Amp, Luigi forgot to show us that one.
One of these days the factory will wake up and realize it's been wrong all these years LOL
Actually after all these years I realized the number plate light has been trying to give us the message, it's powered by the same weak yellow feed.
If you watch that while someone pushes the start and just get a click you will see it dim right down but if it does manage to crank it should come right back up.
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Kiwi Roy
Thanks, that seems pretty simple.
I did notice a little buildup on the solenoid spade, so I cleaned it up. I measured the ohms from the wire inside the relay connector to the spade and it was .1 so it seems to okay.
should I dip the factory connector in some water with baking soda, to help clean out the connection.
Old Head
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At 40 odd amps it doesn't take much resistance before you lose a lot of Voltage, baking soda might help but be prepared to replace the lug and perhaps some wire if it's corroded.
I have found those cheap spade connectors sold everywhere seem to work lose quite quickly, I think it may be a combination of vibration, high current and weather.
If in your junk you can find a decent Nth American spade lug on a few feet of wire I would splice that onto the existing wire,
Normally the connectors are crimped to the wire dry, with moisture the joint starts to corrode, once that happens it's game over. If you dip the wire in Vaseline or any other grease for that matter before crimping the grease keeps out the Oxygen and moisture so it lasts much longer before corrosion sets in. I do this with all wires in a wet place like around the starter or tail-light area.
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I spent some time today going through the connections. Even with it being almost 80, it would not crank, just clunk, clunk, clunk. IF I jump the solenoid, it cranks every time.
I cleaned the relay with some fine sandpaper and followed it up with some OC contact cleaner. Went through the female side. Couldn't really get sand paper very deep in the plug but did spray it down a couple of times.
I swapped out a relay from another connector that wasn't corroded and no change.
Tried with the factory connections, leaving out the MPH fix, and it was not as strong a clunk, faint. I could hear and feel both relays engaging.
after all that, it will crank now after one or two clunks, so progress, but it is much warmer now.
I am going to order some relays and replace the ones I have. Suggestions?
Seems I remember someone bought a relay and used the solenoid wire as the trigger to a relay setup, that way no wires are cut.
Old Head
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Just use a thin eyeglass screwdriver, from the relay side, to depress the tong and pull the yellow wire and terminal from the block. Now add a new terminal with wire, to the terminal block, going direct to battery. Do not forget to tape off the old yellow terminal to keep from grounding. If this fixes the problem, just add a fuse and ride.
I do realize Roy said the same from a different angle.
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While lithium batteries are known to lose cranking power when cold, there is a simple trick to help overcome this deficiency: warm the battery. To do this, simply turn on the bike's headlight high beam for about a minute before cranking. Powering the headlight briefly will cause the battery to heat up enough to deliver a considerably stronger cranking effort than when stone cold.
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While lithium batteries are known to lose cranking power when cold, there is a simple trick to help overcome this deficiency: warm the battery. To do this, simply turn on the bike's headlight high beam for about a minute before cranking. Powering the headlight briefly will cause the battery to heat up enough to deliver a considerably stronger cranking effort than when stone cold.
One small problem. The headlight is not on until the motor is running. :thumb:
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Bummer about the headlight on newer Guzzi's. My experience is with 80's-era Guzzi's whose light switch allows the headlight to be turned off and on independently of the motor. A lithium battery works very well with these bikes.
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And the Lithium battery is no cure for Startus Interrupts.
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I took the relay, MPH adaptor, and cleaned the female and male parts with vinegar and salt, rinse with baking soda solution then rinsed and dried. I have to say the connectors look fabulous. I did the same with the solenoid female end.
I left off the relay and ran a hot wire directly to the wire in the relay harness that runs to the solenoid, and it cranked every I tried it.
I swapped around the relay again, but still only get clunks with a relay in place. ???? WTH...
I am ordering 3 new relays and going to clean all the connectors the same way
(https://i.ibb.co/p04c6Vf/IMG-0426-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/p04c6Vf)
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got new relays from MG cycles and plugged then in... :sad: :sad: :sad:
no change.
Just to rehash. cleaned and scrubbed all connectors, all bright and shinny.
if i put a jump wire from battery to solenoid wire in the connector it cranks.
I am really scratching my head now. Could it be the female connector from battery to relay spade not making good enough contact, as it sure looks bright and shiney?
anyone know how those female connector comes out of the plastic connector to the relay, its not obvious to me
Old Head
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Just to rehash. cleaned and scrubbed all connectors, all bright and shinny.
if i put a jump wire from battery to solenoid wire in the connector it cranks.
When you say 'to solenoid', do you mean to the small spade lug on the solenoid?
If so, have you measured the voltage on it when trying to start it?
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When you say 'to solenoid', do you mean to the small spade lug on the solenoid?
both ways, If I run a wire to the solenoid spade connector, on the starter directly, it cranks everytime.
If I put a wire from battery to connector where the relay plugs in it cranks everytime.
this indicates to me that the soleniod to connector connections is good>
If so, have you measured the voltage on it when trying to start it?
same as battery
I just measured it while trying the starter button, I get 11.6 volts, same as battery. Its been a week with me playing with it, so I guess the battery has discharged some. I put the charger on it and let me bring it up to a good charge and see what it does.
I thought I would pull the female connector out of the MPH connector and see if it was clean on the inside. When I tried to extract it the wire pulled free from the female connector. Maybe this was an issue. I will clean it, reattach it and reinstall it and see what happens after the battery charges.
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I just measured it while trying the starter button, I get 11.6 volts, same as battery. Its been a week with me playing with it, so I guess the battery has discharged some. I put the charger on it and let me bring it up to a good charge and see what it does.
I thought I would pull the female connector out of the MPH connector and see if it was clean on the inside. When I tried to extract it the wire pulled free from the female connector. Maybe this was an issue. I will clean it, reattach it and reinstall it and see what happens after the battery charges.
Wait.
You get 11.6 on the spade lug at the starter solenoid, and it does not crank.
But if you jumper from the battery to the spade lug, it cranks?
If that is correct, then the solenoid is sticking or something. 11.6 should be more than enough to pull the solenoid.
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Remember that solenoid contacts can corrode INSIDE the solenoid housing. It's possible to take the solenoid apart to clean the inside contacts but probably easier just to buy a new solenoid. Also consider something amiss inside the starter (what brand starter BTW?) If worn bearings the shaft can drift and the rotor can hit something. I restored an old Bosch just by cleaning out 20 years' accumulation of road mung that created a lot of drag on the rotor. Possible that cold weather shrinks whatever is binding up in there, or just that there's not enough amperage at low temps to turn a draggy starter.
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Wait.
You get 11.6 on the spade lug at the starter solenoid, and it does not crank.
yeah, just a clunk. same as before.
But if you jumper from the battery to the spade lug, it cranks?
didn't try that today, it did before I started all this cleaning and replacing relays.
If that is correct, then the solenoid is sticking or something. 11.6 should be more than enough to pull the solenoid.
well, its on a charger so I will try again tomorrow. fingers crossed that its just the battery too weak.
Testarossa
before I started down this odyssey, it would crank with a jumper wire to the solenoid from the battery everytime I tried, no clunks at all. I suppose it could be the solenoid/STARTER, and if the cleaning and new relays don't do it, that will be next I suppose. It was too late to try it again today.
Time will tell.
Old Head
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I told you in 44 to get rid of the MPH relay and power the original Guzzi relay socket direct from the battery through a new fuse.
You have a weak joint somewhere, I suggest you replace the wire all the way from the battery to the relay 30 and back from the relay 87 to the solenoid.
It's a well known fact that the original Breva wiring is suspect your troubles seem to have migrated from the original to the MPH kit.
If the factory bothered to draw the starter properly they might wake up to the problem.
To keep this new wire somewhat the same as the drawing you might like to make it yellow No 14
Make sure the spade connector at the solenoid is good quality and freshly crimped with some grease on the wire first.
Perhaps run this wire by the battery terminal so in an emergency you can touch it to the battery and hot wire the starter, if you do this slip a little tube over the bare spot.
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:violent1:
(https://i.ibb.co/bPVJh4D/yuasa-ytx20-chbs-high-performance-agm-battery-750x750.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bPVJh4D)
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:violent1:
(https://i.ibb.co/bPVJh4D/yuasa-ytx20-chbs-high-performance-agm-battery-750x750.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bPVJh4D)
I agree. And it's only taken three pages.
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"Let us draw the curtain of charity over the rest of the scene" - Mark Twain