Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Chuck in Indiana on February 11, 2019, 02:20:31 PM
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Ok, bear with me. I've never had a street bike with wire wheels. In my dotage, the chances of me pulling a tire off on the side of the road, patching a tube and spooning it back on are slim and none.
I thought I'd give a go at making the G5 wheels tubeless, so pulled the tire and tube off. The wheel has 100,000 miles of service, and is in fairly good shape for what it's been through.
What I'm wondering is this: Those vertical lines on the side of the wheel look to me to be asking for a leak.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7835/46150581105_6e207b6ea0_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2djaMUe)2019-02-11_03-02-45 (https://flic.kr/p/2djaMUe) by Charles Stottlemyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/107188298@N06/), on Flickr
To those of you that have done it, am I being overly worried? I would *hate* to spend the time this is going to take to clean up the wheel, prep, spooge, tape, etc. and find out they leak.
TIA
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Pointless, IMHO. Patching a tube is not that hard.
That pattern in the side it to help lock the tire so it does not slip. If it slips, it can rip the stem out of the tube. No more tube, and you don't need to worry much about a slipping tire. So, seals those grooves if you are going that route.
Sounds like a lot of work to me though.
Maybe bead blast it first to clean it up.
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Hmmm never thought of bead blast. I've been going at it with an aluminum toothbrush, rag, and lacquer thinner. Nasty work.
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I just cleaned mine prior to applying 3M tape. A brass bristled rotary wire brush on a drill worked beautifully, I do however feel that you'll not get a reliable seal on the rim with those grooves, they do look very deep.
The spoke heads also will not be easy to get a reliable seal given that they are not blind as on the Norge.
Much as I would hate to throw my hands up and retreat, I think I'd leave it as mentioned.
You can however, obtain and bore your own rims and go with with blind nipples and o rings apparently.. :wink:
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Get everything good and clean then a smear of silicone caulk to fill in the grooves.
You may find that you did spend a lot of time (well really what and hour or so?) cleaning prepping and taping and they still leak. But that part of the fun of nothing ventured nothing gained.
Put some beef strips on your new dehydrator and while they are drying out to jerky you can work on you wheels to pass the time.
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I dont think the sides contribute to much of the sealing, its more important for the tire to have a flat surface on the inside, whenever I've had sealing issues on car tires it has had nothing to do with where those lines are.
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You may find that you did spend a lot of time (well really what and hour or so?)
I've already spent close to an hour, and it's not even close. I've sort of cleaned about 6 inches. It's pretty nasty looking. The picture I posted is where I've already cleaned. :shocked:
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Looks like bead blasting would a lot quicker, better and less hassle Chuck! Never had any trouble with tubes either though....
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I've already spent close to an hour, and it's not even close. I've sort of cleaned about 6 inches. It's pretty nasty looking. The picture I posted is where I've already cleaned. :shocked:
I'd agree if that's all the further you got in an hour then media blasting would be a lot better option. I just did the SP fork lowers and rotors at work today. It took longer to mask off the top of the lower than it did to blast all the old paint off.
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Yeah, there would be a *lot* of masking involved. I'm not *sure* it would get this stuff that's on the wheel. Solvent sort of gets it.. I kind of get the feeling I would end up with sticky grit. :grin: I'll give it a go on a small area tomorrow.
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A brass cup brush on a drill motor would also be a choice for cleaning up the crust.
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How about down in the spoke nipple wells? I'm totally not into taking these things apart to do that.. Maybe it's not necessary?
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The tape won't squish down tight to the spoke nipple so "wells" don't have to be sparkling clean. The tape will stick to the wheel so thats got to be clean.
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Check out this thread, some good information here:
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=86599.0 (https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=86599.0)
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A brass cup brush on a drill motor would also be a choice for cleaning up the crust.
swot I did, brass shone, alloy clean, alcohol for finish
grooves for anti spin
spun tyre is out of balance
no leaks there on mine
but
one wheel had steel nipples, I sandblasted the rust off
less frugal would have replaced spokes and nipples
oe. ss and brass easy , no rust to worry about
do west ham test before refitting to bike
i have outside bath but any trough will do ,submerge at 50 psi
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I converted the spoked wheels of my 73 eldorado years ago, they had the same tire retention grooves, but they did not affect the sealing of the bead. I used permatex grey RTV to seal mine up.
No problems in over 3 years of use.
I used the 3M 5200 marine urethane caulk to seal up my 03 Cali Aluminum wheels, and they have been great also. 3M makes a fast cure 5200, and a slow cure 5200. I used the fast cure.
Rick.
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The tape won't squish down tight to the spoke nipple so "wells" don't have to be sparkling clean. The tape will stick to the wheel so thats got to be clean.
I imagine the pressure will push it into the well easily enough.
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I imagine the pressure will push it into the well easily enough.
swat happened to mine
tape goes 3-1 or so easy fills wells, cleaning worth it. imho
iif job is worth doing, blah. blah
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swat happened to mine
tape goes 3-1 or so easy fills wells, cleaning worth it. imho
iif job is worth doing, blah. blah
Now you were on the MGOCV ride to Wye River weren't you a couple of weeks back ?
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I'm taking the cast ront wheel off the SP1000 to work to media blast today. Then I think I'm going to tap the valve stem hole with an 1/8" IPS thread and tighten in on of these little devils and go tubeless after a repaint.
(https://i.ibb.co/Sx6RbWM/ATS.png) (https://ibb.co/Sx6RbWM)
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Alrighty, now! Bead blast works a treat. No need bead blasting the rotors, spokes, bearings, :shocked: though.. :smiley:
One other question. Is there a special valve stem for this application? No, I haven't searched..yet.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7886/33197843448_3f4ccfabf0_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/SzzCgb)2019-02-12_10-31-55 (https://flic.kr/p/SzzCgb) by Charles Stottlemyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/107188298@N06/), on Flickr
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Alrighty, now! Bead blast works a treat. No need bead blasting the rotors, spokes, bearings, :shocked: though.. :smiley:
One other question. Is there a special valve stem for this application? No, I haven't searched..yet.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7886/33197843448_3f4ccfabf0_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/SzzCgb)2019-02-12_10-31-55 (https://flic.kr/p/SzzCgb) by Charles Stottlemyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/107188298@N06/), on Flickr
Looks like a Guzzi snare drum!
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<rimshot> :smiley:
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<rimshot> :smiley:
I got my SP wheel blasted today. It took almost an hour with a industrial 4 foot square blast cabinet backed my a huge scroll compressor that doesn't run out of air. Whatever paint was on the wheel came off easily the primer or base coast must have been soft so the media could not shatter it. It took a long time and there are lots of nook and crannies on the SP wheel. But progress was made :thumb:
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http://thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_tires_-_tubeless_conversion.html
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Life is too short for me to do any of that. Neither could I satisfy myself that paint, tapes, silicone sealers, et. al. would holdup, - despite the claims. - - And it's so non-factory. Lucky ol' bastard that I am I've had one MC tire flat in 70 years riding. I was going to a 'breakfast'. Plugged it. Aired it. Gone in 10 - 15 minutes. I've cold or hot patched dozens of bicycle, car and truck tires and pinched a few tubes.
I swapped the wheels to cast, on my V7 3 before it left the dealer. I still have bikes w/wire spoke wheels though. They look nice, too. Still wouldn't go beyond circling the ranch with them. Solutions are best when they are permanent. R3~
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Alrighty, now! Bead blast works a treat. No need bead blasting the rotors, spokes, bearings, :shocked: though.. :smiley:
One other question. Is there a special valve stem for this application? No, I haven't searched..yet.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7886/33197843448_3f4ccfabf0_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/SzzCgb)2019-02-12_10-31-55 (https://flic.kr/p/SzzCgb) by Charles Stottlemyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/107188298@N06/), on Flickr
prob too late
I used long threaded valves with rubber washer both sides of rim available 90 deg or straight chromed steel. Did try lovely alloy ones but thres too short to be happy. to use them you could mill rim to suit, doable
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I thought there might be valve stems with a radius that would fit the arc in the bottom of the wheel more closely. So far, I haven't found any. I suppose that having a rubber gasket on each side of the rim would help.
Bead blasting worked better than I expected to clean them up, FWIW. I'm confident that whatever I use to stick on the wheel will have a good shot at that. :smiley:
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I converted from steel spoke to Excel aluminum rims. The Excel rims do not have the notches, they are smooth. Have not experienced any slipping or leaking problems with the tubeless set up. The wheels actually hold air better than any motorcycle rim I have ever owned. I used a NAPA brand motorcycle tubeless valve steam.
Take the wheel apart and clean everything. You will have a much better looking wheel assembly. I started with new rim, spokes and fresh powder coated hubs. The wheel builder used lube on the nipples that leached out.
Wash rim and nipples in degreaser/soapy water a couple of time, blow nipples out between washes. Wipe with denatured alcohol and use 3M Marine sealant. I used acetone to smooth out and clean up. I poured some acetone in a pan, dipped my finger tip in and smoothed the sealant. (the 3M sealant is made with acetone and acetone is toxic, use at your own risk) Takes days to complete, be patient. I put the axle thru the hub and mounted one end in a vise, pulled up a stool and started the process. I sealed each nipple, smoothed and let set 2 days. Added a complete layer around rim, smoothed, late set 2 days, added 3rd layer, smoothed, late set 4 days. Installed nipple and tire.
I also machined some material off the front brake rotor carrier and the rear hub and brake carrier.
(https://i.ibb.co/D5TBMbN/Rear-Wheel.jpg) (https://ibb.co/D5TBMbN)
I cleaned up the tire bead of all molding process flash, moisten the bead with wheel bearing grease and pushed the tire on by hand. I was surprised at how cleaning the flash of the bead made the tire go on much easier. I used green scotch bright pad to buff the flash off.
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I thought there might be valve stems with a radius that would fit the arc in the bottom of the wheel more closely. So far, I haven't found any. I suppose that having a rubber gasket on each side of the rim would help.
Bead blasting worked better than I expected to clean them up, FWIW. I'm confident that whatever I use to stick on the wheel will have a good shot at that. :smiley:
yep minutes from done, blasting good
extreme tape will be sh1T to blanket
napa valves same as mine, rubber contorts
but I would spend a bit extra time and check for true now but you prob already have
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I thought there might be valve stems with a radius that would fit the arc in the bottom of the wheel more closely. So far, I haven't found any. I suppose that having a rubber gasket on each side of the rim would help.
Bead blasting worked better than I expected to clean them up, FWIW. I'm confident that whatever I use to stick on the wheel will have a good shot at that. :smiley:
That would be great if a manufacturer would make a slightly radius-ed one. I ended up using the Chrome Parts Unlimited Valve Stems VS-1218R (https://www.parts-unlimited.com/products/?productId=362897&partNumber=VS1218R ) for my G5's cast wheels, but I only used the rubber on the inside smeared with Napa bead sealer ( https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/BK_7101204 ), then double-nut-ed the outer part. So far so good, but I'm always a little nervous about the seal. The reason I didn't use the outer rubber was because I thought the outer rubber would push in when I'd put air in the tire, possibly breaking the seal on the inner one. Anyway, that was my reasoning. I did have to cut down the chrome cap a little to accommodate the double-nut.
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I did my Quota wheel's about 5 years ago still works great. I over complicated my process. I used a plumber's glue or epoxy(I Can't remember the name but it was in a squeeze tube not for CPVC or PVC) on each individual nipple. It took between 2-3 minutes per nipple then I used Marine 5200 on rear wheel and E6000 on the front wheel. Why the difference? 5200 cost 3-4 times e6000. e6000 is self leveling . It can be found everywhere easily.
Prep is very important. Wire brush it clean clean clean. I used denatured alcohol to clean.
The separate nipple "glueing" is over kill. I waited 24 hours for it to cure. If you use 5200 I think it has a 24-48 cure time. E6000 has a 4-6 hour cure time. (I waited 24 hours).I also made a cardboard template of the inside of my rim to smooth the 5200 . The E6000 didn't need it so much. I preferred using a caulk gun cartridge vs a squeeze tube
So many people have different ways to seal the rim. If you do it properly pretty much every method works.
I can't emphasize doing great prep work. The process is amazing fast to seal the rim after the prep work.
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The problem is.. I have two guys who's judgement I trust. Martin says the tape is all I need, and John says the tape won't work. :smiley: The Kid says he has some out of date pro seal (aircraft fuel tank sealer) that by regulation has to be thrown away. He's never sent it to me, though. I *have* the tape.
Went to NAPA today to get the Tire valves. They had one. :rolleyes: Called another store and they don't have any.. I'm glad I'm not in a hurry..
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The problem is.. I have two guys who's judgement I trust. Martin says the tape is all I need, and John says the tape won't work. :smiley: The Kid says he has some out of date pro seal (aircraft fuel tank sealer) that by regulation has to be thrown away. He's never sent it to me, though. I *have* the tape.
Went to NAPA today to get the Tire valves. They had one. :rolleyes: Called another store and they don't have any.. I'm glad I'm not in a hurry..
I used some old aircraft tank sealer on the wire wheels on my roadstar. Leaked when I was done. Was a mess to remove. YMMV.
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In regards to sealing the middle part with all the spokes, I would opt for a tape type wrap that wraps around a few times, versus something that would brush on and fling without support - Centrifugal forces in mind here. I'll be watching, curious of the process you go with and final results. It sure is easier to watch this than doing the work :grin:
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Greg Field used a slightly different method that used a tube as the rim strip, and the valve stem from the tube. This is how I did the first conversion I ever did on a friends honda shadow with spoked wheels. Its been over 6 years and its still leak free. This guy puts alot of miles on his bike, and he has been through about 8 tire changes/mountings without any issues, or leaks.
Rick
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_tires_-_tubeless_conversion.html
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Well.
I did mine after 4 years with 3M marine sealant and did not use the 3M tape that I bought.
I found it creased unacceptably and did not sit down in the well with enough authority to give me confidence. Instead after sealing the (admittedly blind) nipples with the 3M brew, I then did one wrap of 100 mph tape as we call it , dunno about y'all.
So that the tape would not begin to lift away in general use with respect to warm environment and centrifugal force trying to lift it off, I also put two new rim tapes over the whole shooting match.
After all that, I immersed the rear in water and no leaks, and filled a tub then rotated the front wheel gradually and looked for bubbles.
Mercifully, no Michael Jackson action...!
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so many ways to skin this cat
all seem easy prep being everything
only consistant failure seems to be factory Alpina o rings as supplied oe as tubeless (Huzo and search finds many more.)
This prob says why v85 has tubes
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Closure to this thread. I blame Austin for my problems. :evil: :smiley:
I had decided to use the tape method, and Austin said, "I think it would be better if you sealed each nipple with goo, and then taped it."
Ok. Went to Home Depot and got a couple of tubes of loctite quick drying marine adhesive. Had everything prepped, thinking I'd be able to finesse that stuff around each nipple. No freakin way. It was too thick and difficult to move around. Made kind of a mess. Decided to continue on, let it dry and put the tape on the next day.
The tape wouldn't stick to the loctite. It stuck to the aluminum rim just fine, and left some wrinkles and air bubbles. :rolleyes: Even with Dorcia's help..if it touched the side of the rim before it touched the drop center, it was stuck.
Didn't like the looks of it but went ahead and put the tire on, ran the pressure up to 50 lbs. Squirted a mix of Dawn/water all over and didn't find any leaks. :smiley: Dropped the pressure to 36 and left it over night.
Went out in the morning, and it was 34. :angry: Put it in my sink, ran 6 inches of water in it and slowly turned the wheel watching with a bright light. Eventually found one spoke nipple leaking. Marked it. Pulled the tire off, and had a look. The tape was a mess. Pulled that off and cleaned everything up with thinner. Didn't see any obvious leak at the leaking spoke. Hmmm.
Decided to coat the whole drop center. Made a spatula..
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7816/47083511362_327ff57575_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2eJBiyE)2019-02-18_10-41-43 (https://flic.kr/p/2eJBiyE) by Charles Stottlemyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/107188298@N06/), on Flickr
and did that. Let it sit for 24 hours.
Put on the tire, checked for leaks, and set pressure at 35 psi. Went out this morning, and it was 36. :grin: :thumb: (cold air from the compressor in the hanger warming up in the shop overnight)
So.
About all I can say is use one or the other method. Not both..
I'll still say that that tape will probably be a booger to get laid down in the drop center without air bubbles, etc.
I'll use my other tube of goo on the back wheel.. and hope my saga will save someone else from doing what I did. :grin:
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My Austin Healey is the last vehicle,(except for my Pan), I'll be owning w/wire wheels!
:-)
As a kid one my dad's friends owned a Big Healey. IIRC, the thing would bounce all over the road at about 75 mph.
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As a kid one my dad's friends owned a Big Healey. IIRC, the thing would bounce all over the road at about 75 mph.
I had one when I was 20 or so. :smiley: It must have been indestructible, because I caned the tits off of it. :evil: I remember one evening when I was making a run up to Michigan to see the Kid's mom :smiley: and I had it well over 100. That big six was roaring, the "bonnet" was shaking, and I was thinking, "Yeah. This is a *machine.* Stupid kid..
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Oh. BTW. If you decide to forgo rim strips and just use duct tape.. you can call it a safety item instead of a bodge. You won't need to worry about the tire coming off the rim during a blowout. :evil:
I started on the rear today, and had one expletive of a time getting the bead to break. The heat had made the adhesive in the duct tape ooze out and literally glue that sucker to the rim. :shocked: Also, it had pretty much filled up the spoke wells, and I've spent all afternoon digging it out of there. Maybe another hour or so and I'll have it cleaned up.
Just say no.. :smiley:
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interesting re duct tape . I have used gaffa tape for rim tape for many years adhesive never melts
Mate recently did 3m tape job and then covered with gaffa for protection worked first time
but your lesson clear if he had used duct tape over 3m it would have flung off
tapes ain’t tapes
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Chuck we have been around long enough to know that there is usually collateral damage/consequences' on these types of capers...no?
:grin: Oh, yeah. "If you look for trouble on an old machine, you will find it."
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On my 72 Eldo I started out with tape and spoke covers cut from Duct tape but ended up with just GE 100% silicone, been running that way for 3 years now.
The nice thing if you don't get it right it usually results in a slow leak through one of the spoke threads.
A cheap plastic planter box makes a good water trough for testing for leaks while on the bike.
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You skipped the most important part, acetone. Use the acetone to help smooth out and to wipe off excess. It is a multi step, multi day process. You just can't put a bunch on and try to smooth it out.
Toss the tape in the garbage or give to someone you do not like to patch their cheap above ground pool.
Put sealant on each spoke nipple and smooth out with finger tip dipped in acetone. (toxic stuff) Let it cure for a couple of days.
Put a second coat on all the way around the rim drop and smooth out with finger tip dipped in acetone.
Go buy more beer, because you will be out by this time, put a third coat on and smooth out with finger tip dipped in acetone. Use paper towel dipped in acetone to clean up the mess on the rim. Let set for 3 days to cure out. Install valve stem, tire and inflate.
The acetone is crucial to getting a good smooth finish. It keeps the sealant from sticking to your tools/finger tip and lifting up when you lift away from the sealant. The 3M brand is made with acetone and it compatible.
(https://i.ibb.co/m5sKBJZ/Rear-Wheel.jpg) (https://ibb.co/m5sKBJZ)
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just a dumb question here,
If you ever had to tighten the spokes, would you punch a hole in the seal?
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just a dumb question here,
If you ever had to tighten the spokes, would you punch a hole in the seal?
The next Owner can figure that out. I have owned a lot of motorcycles with spoke wheels. The only time I have tightened a spokes was while rebuilding. I have seen them come loose, but only after one or more were damaged from impact.
The sealant is 1/2 inch or more from the spoke nipple, if some one was to rotate the nipple, it would most likely continued to be sealed. If it did leak, it would be very easy to apply additional 3M sealant.
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You skipped the most important part, acetone. Use the acetone to help smooth out and to wipe off excess. It is a multi step, multi day process. You just can't put a bunch on and try to smooth it out.
Toss the tape in the garbage or give to someone you do not like to patch their cheap above ground pool.
Put sealant on each spoke nipple and smooth out with finger tip dipped in acetone. (toxic stuff) Let it cure for a couple of days.
Put a second coat on all the way around the rim drop and smooth out with finger tip dipped in acetone.
Go buy more beer, because you will be out by this time, put a third coat on and smooth out with finger tip dipped in acetone. Use paper towel dipped in acetone to clean up the mess on the rim. Let set for 3 days to cure out. Install valve stem, tire and inflate.
The acetone is crucial to getting a good smooth finish. It keeps the sealant from sticking to your tools/finger tip and lifting up when you lift away from the sealant. The 3M brand is made with acetone and it compatible.
(https://i.ibb.co/m5sKBJZ/Rear-Wheel.jpg) (https://ibb.co/m5sKBJZ)
I read your first post on this. The only thing in the store was loctite.. supposedly the same as the quick dry 3M.. cheaper. :grin: I used lacquer thinner instead of acetone.. it's still a nasty job, no matter how you do it.
If you ever had to tighten the spokes, would you punch a hole in the seal?
I found a couple of spokes that weren't as tight as the others, and tightened them up/checked trueness before starting this mess. :smiley: I would think that if a guy had to fool with spokes, it *could* be done, but it wouldn't be any picnic.
Definitely, you woudn't want any of Pete's "shaved apes" changing your tires. Both of my wheels have tire tool marks down in the drop center that would definitely damage the tape, and probably the adhesive.
Just the same, I think it's worthwhile to do. There is no freakin way I would have been able to get the rear wheel off, break the bead, fix or replace the tube and reassemble on the side of the road. It was hard enough sitting on The Box on the lift with a dropout. <shrug>
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Both of my wheels have tire tool marks down in the drop center that would definitely damage the tape, and probably the adhesive.
That type of thing is why I have been doing my own motorcycle tire changes for decades.
On a sort of related note. I just had tire put on the car. Don't have the tools to do it right, and can't readily carry and dispose of car tires, so I suffer through having someone else damage my car. :embarassed:
While being done, I walked across the street for lunch. They called and said that I needed a new air filter in the car. WTF are you doing looking at my air filter. Put on the tires and do the job right. :thewife: I get back, they aren't mounted. They had stacked the tires I ordered a week ago on their sides, now the beads won't seat. I told them I had tools at home that I should have brought. Eventually they got it done, while I am now keeping a close eye on them. I got home, and found a fastener on the cabin air filter broken. The air filter cover flopping loose, and all 4 tires when cold are 8 PSI over. (checked with three accugauges)
Needless to say, they got a 'glowing' review from me on Google. If I did more car tires I would get those tools.
No thank you to having someone butcher my motorcycle in the shop when it can be done easily.
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Unbelievable. :rolleyes: It truly *is* hard to find good help any more.. <shrug>
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just a dumb question here,
If you ever had to tighten the spokes, would you punch a hole in the seal?
Wrong again mate..
That is NOT a dumb question.
I grappled with that issue as well and concluded that if I have to tweak a spoke or replace one, the only barrier/s to leaks will be the tape and o rings. That'll be tire off, tape off and re seal the offending spoke. :angry:
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This prob says why v85 has tubes
Mine won't..
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Hey Chuck.
Your dad had a 'big Healy'? With an inline 6 cylinder? Dual carbs? AKA, a Nash Healy?
Very cool. Very rare. Damned quick, back in the day. Gentlemen only need apply. R3~
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Hey Chuck.
Your dad had a 'big Healy'? With an inline 6 cylinder? Dual carbs? AKA, a Nash Healy?
Very cool. Very rare. Damned quick, back in the day. Gentlemen only need apply. R3~
No, I had a big Healey. :grin: 6 cylinder, dual carbs, but it was an Austin Healey. I bought it with my first job after leaving the farm. I was rollin in dough.. making $2.45 an hour. :shocked:
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Thanx, Chuck.
I had a close friend w/a 4 cylinder. Early missile tracking with RCA, Cape Canaveral. First time out it overheated. Factory installed cooling fan was on backwards. Bruce would go to work. I'd run the beach for a few hours. Drove a '54 V8 Nash Healey cpe. for a day. 3 spd. w/overdrive. R3~