Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: HDGoose on April 23, 2015, 10:12:40 AM

Title: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: HDGoose on April 23, 2015, 10:12:40 AM
Since learning that they are now sourcing parts from china and such, I'm done with newer Guzzi's. Too many older ones from available for not much money.

Not worth the hassle with few dealers, few parts, arrogant parent company...
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: blackcat on April 23, 2015, 10:18:52 AM



I challenge you to find any mass produced motor vehicle that does not contain at lest some Chinese parts.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Lannis on April 23, 2015, 10:27:13 AM
Well, perhaps Goose is going with his "economic conscience"?

Sort of like people did with South Africa in apartheid days?   Don't buy South African products or invest in SA companies while their national policy was race separation?

Certainly seems like a Communist regime, constant violators of human rights, massive polluters of the entire world, pirating and stealing every idea they can get their hands on, MIGHT be a subject for a similar personal embargo, without thinking that that's too amazing?

Everyone picks their own thing to be sensitive to.   I'm sure that there are Chinese who refuse to buy American products for various reasons, real and imagined, although that might be a pretty easy thing to do over there .....

Lannis
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on April 23, 2015, 10:30:17 AM
Quote
Everyone picks their own thing to be sensitive to.

Yep, I boycott BP. I'll bring them to their knees just like I did Exxon.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Lannis on April 23, 2015, 10:35:52 AM
Yep, I boycott BP. I'll bring them to their knees just like I did Exxon.

I ride with a guy who won't stop at an Exxon station since the big oil spill.    I generally burn Chevron gas when I'm with him.

Of course, for a guy like me who won't go in a Sheetz, a WalMart, a Cracker Barrel, a McDonalds, or a Hardees ...... it's easy to understand!

Lannis
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: blackcat on April 23, 2015, 10:43:50 AM
Yep, I boycott BP. I'll bring them to their knees just like I did Exxon.

 ;D

I bet the board of directors always mentions you at their meetings.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: bad Chad on April 23, 2015, 11:02:28 AM
I generally try to buy made in USA products when I can, I pay more but it makes me feel better.

But it's a matter of degrees, if you want to be a purist and not buy from offensive opresive nations you will vertully have to live off the grid in a mountain shack.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: roadscum on April 23, 2015, 11:07:29 AM
Funny stuff here. American riders of Italian motorcycles unhappy because of Chinese suppliers.   :pop

Paul
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: rocker59 on April 23, 2015, 11:12:03 AM
Since learning that they are now sourcing parts from china and such, I'm done with newer Guzzi's. 

Which parts, and such, are from China?  And on which bikes?

The recent addition of Asian parts to the V7 line has not affected your new Guzzi purchases over the past decade.

As I recall, that number is zero.  So, the addition of Asian parts is a non-starter.

So, basically, this is just a troll thread...    ::)
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: lrutt on April 23, 2015, 11:18:47 AM
Funny stuff here. American riders of Italian motorcycles unhappy because of Chinese suppliers.   :pop

Paul

ha ha..

Wonder where he thinks his carparts/electronics/clothes come from
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: rocker59 on April 23, 2015, 11:22:28 AM
Funny stuff here. American riders of Italian motorcycles unhappy because of Chinese suppliers.   :pop

Paul

Sometimes it's nice to buy American Products that are made in The USA.  Sometimes it's nice to buy Italian Products that are made in Italy.  Etc., Etc.

Heck, I don't even mind buying Japanese Products that are made in Japan!

But I do get tired of going shopping for things like Justin Boots and seeing a "made in China" tag instead of "made in Texas USA" tag.

One of the great things about Moto Guzzi has been that its in-country content was virtually 100% up until very recently.  
  
Sometimes when you buy something from someplace, you'd like it to be made in that place.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Lannis on April 23, 2015, 11:26:00 AM
Sometimes it's nice to buy American Products that are made in The USA.  Sometimes it's nice to buy Italian Products that are made in Italy.  Etc., Etc.

Heck, I don't even mind buying Japanese Products that are made in Japan!

But I do get tired of going shopping for things like Justin Boots and seeing a "made in China" tag instead of "made in Texas USA" tag.

One of the great things about Moto Guzzi has been that its in-country content was virtually 100% up until very recently.  
  
Sometimes when you buy something from someplace, you'd like it to be made in that place.

See, that's why you're the boss.   You can take a "troll thread" and turn it into an informative thread that explains what many people are trying to do.

A zen-like spiritual power you learned in the Orient, no doubt .....   ;)

Lannis
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Perazzimx14 on April 23, 2015, 11:36:01 AM
I'm done with newer Guzzi's to! But only because I like the older stuff better.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: HDGoose on April 23, 2015, 11:36:03 AM
Funny stuff here. American riders of Italian motorcycles unhappy because of Chinese suppliers.   :pop

Paul

Guzzi's were built by people making decent wages, using parts made in Europe by folks making decent wages. Now they want premium money for non premium stuff. And they still cannot get it right out the door.

Understand now Paul?

Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Lannis on April 23, 2015, 11:41:07 AM
I'm done with newer Guzzi's to! But only because I like the older stuff better.

My Stelvio is a stellar motorcycle, and at 35,000 miles, so far so good.

But I've sat down with it, and had a long and intimate conversation last time I was changing the oil, and explained that if she runs well and wears out normally, we're sticking together and I might buy her great-grandaughter too.

But if she plays any silly 21st century tricks with failed dashboards or broken useless electrickery that does something I don't even need done, then it's off to eBAY at a $0.99 start price and no reserve, and a roundfin Tonti that knows her business is taking her place.

Just sayin' ....

Lannis
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: JeffOlson on April 23, 2015, 11:42:42 AM
I was a bit disappointed to discover that my wheels are Chinese. I really thought my Norge would be more Italian than it is (or at least Norwegian!).
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: HDGoose on April 23, 2015, 11:45:26 AM
Sometimes it's nice to buy American Products that are made in The USA.  Sometimes it's nice to buy Italian Products that are made in Italy.  Etc., Etc.

Heck, I don't even mind buying Japanese Products that are made in Japan!

But I do get tired of going shopping for things like Justin Boots and seeing a "made in China" tag instead of "made in Texas USA" tag.

One of the great things about Moto Guzzi has been that its in-country content was virtually 100% up until very recently. 
 
Sometimes when you buy something from someplace, you'd like it to be made in that place.

Someone gets it!

Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: blackcat on April 23, 2015, 11:51:37 AM
Guzzi's were built by people making decent wages, using parts made in Europe by folks making decent wages. Now they want premium money for non premium stuff. And they still cannot get it right out the door.

Understand now Paul?



Which new MG would you entertain buying based on your previous purchase history? V7? ;D...no, Norge,Breva?..no, Stelvio?...maybe, New California? This is the most likely bike, if I had to guess at one MG. I haven't read that they contain any foreign to Italy parts and if it was an alternator or starter for a five plus year old bike, excuse me Moto Guzzi, the depreciation cost at which you will likely be purchasing the bike will more than compensate for the installation of non-Chinese parts.

I remember when that crappy French Valeo starter was the talk of the MG web. ::)

Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: rocker59 on April 23, 2015, 11:52:04 AM
Someone gets it!



My Sport 1100 came with NGK plugs and wires.  And, WP rear shock.  Other than that, I haven't found anything else sourced very far from Mandelo del Lario.

Campagnolo, Marzocchi, Bitubo, Acerbis, LaFranconi, Dellorto, CEV, Veglia, etc...
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: blackcat on April 23, 2015, 11:57:31 AM
Oh, and there has been a problem in the Italian garment business for some time regarding the label Made in Italy. Evidently, Chinese labor has been imported to the country at slave labor wages to produce garments in Italy with the above label driving out other local businesses with Italian labor.

Is it possible that something made in Mandelo is necessarily made with fair wages? I don't know that answer but Mike Harper has indicated that there are parts and there are parts.

Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Bill Hagan on April 23, 2015, 11:58:24 AM
Which new MG would you entertain buying based on your previous purchase history? V7? ;D...no, Norge,Breva?..no, Stelvio?...maybe, New California? This is the most likely bike, if I had to guess at one MG. I haven't read that they contain any foreign to Italy parts and if it was an alternator or starter for a five plus year old bike, excuse me Moto Guzzi, the depreciation cost at which you will likely be purchasing the bike will more than compensate for the installation of non-Chinese parts.

I remember when that crappy French Valeo starter was the talk of the MG web. ::)



The thought of seeing Goose astride a V7 is really, really funny.   :D

Bill

Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: HDGoose on April 23, 2015, 11:59:18 AM
I was a bit disappointed to discover that my wheels are Chinese. I really thought my Norge would be more Italian than it is (or at least Norwegian!).

I wonder who make the final drives.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: blackcat on April 23, 2015, 12:04:34 PM
I'm looking for a v7 sport? For about 5k

Me too.
(http://www.netanimations.net/Laughing-chimp-gif-animation.gif)
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: rocker59 on April 23, 2015, 12:35:42 PM
I'm reminded of the Chevrolet salesman telling Peter Egan to buy an American made PU instead of a Honda Ridgeline , of course neglecting the fact that the Chevy is built in Mexico and the Honda is more or less built in America  ;D Lots od HD riders lament the use of Brembo brakes on modern Harleys , one of the mechanics where my nephew works told him that all Brembo brakes are junk , because the ones used on HDs are , or were .

 Dusty


FWIW:

Sierra and Silverado are built in several facilities:

Flint Michigan
Roanoke Indiana
Silao Mexico

Suburban, Tahoe, Yukon are built in Arlington Texas.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Arizona Wayne on April 23, 2015, 12:45:52 PM
Anyone here who thinks Goose is a troll hasn't been here that long and are mistaken.  I have no desire for a newer Guzzi in my future either.  I think 30 years of commitment is enough.  But I do like most the Guzzi riders.  :BEER:  Since not buying any more Guzzis, I have bought 2 Piaggio MP3s, so I'm still part of the Italian brotherhood.  ;D
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: rocker59 on April 23, 2015, 12:54:37 PM
So... 3 of the 5 models are built in America  ~;

  Dusty

I know mine has a Janesville Wisconsin sticker.  Unfortunately, they idled that plant in 2009.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: blackcat on April 23, 2015, 12:59:52 PM
I have got over 50,000 miles on my Norge with very few problems. At this asking price one could probably get a very nice bike for somewhere in the mid to high $5,000 range and it probably has no furinor parts. Or one can buy some clapped out T-3 and be happy as a clam as you adjust the points. (shrug)

(http://images.craigslist.org/00j0j_jVORkWzVHsW_600x450.jpg)
http://albany.craigslist.org/mcy/4991641228.html

And i have no knowledge of the bike or owner.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: rocker59 on April 23, 2015, 01:05:19 PM
That would be a nice one! 
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: arveno on April 23, 2015, 01:23:40 PM
I have got over 50,000 miles on my Norge with very few problems. At this asking price one could probably get a very nice bike for somewhere in the mid to high $5,000 range and it probably has no furinor parts. Or one can buy some clapped out T-3 and be happy as a clam as you adjust the points. (shrug)

(http://images.craigslist.org/00j0j_jVORkWzVHsW_600x450.jpg)
http://albany.craigslist.org/mcy/4991641228.html

And i have no knowledge of the bike or owner.

Actually this bike is listed in the classifieds , nice bike .
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: rdbandkab on April 23, 2015, 01:25:07 PM
Since learning that they are now sourcing parts from china and such, I'm done with newer Guzzi's. Too many older ones from available for not much money.

Not worth the hassle with few dealers, few parts, arrogant parent company...

I'm thinking my anti-lock module (under the tank) is from Chine'r.    I know the fellow who was suppose to tighten it to the frame wasn't.  (see pic)

(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y32/rdbandkab/antil_zps05f43a92.jpg)
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: HDGoose on April 23, 2015, 01:31:23 PM
I'm reminded of the Chevrolet salesman telling Peter Egan to buy an American made PU instead of a Honda Ridgeline , of course neglecting the fact that the Chevy is built in Mexico and the Honda is more or less built in America  ;D Lots od HD riders lament the use of Brembo brakes on modern Harleys , one of the mechanics where my nephew works told him that all Brembo brakes are junk , because the ones used on HDs are , or were .

 Dusty

My 2013 Ram 2500 was made in Mexico.

If companies want to lower my costs with quality goods made by slave labor, ok. But when the upper management moves jobs overseas to reduce costs and boost their salaries, while still charging as if their costs were the same, well that's just capitalism. And I'll shop around to determine the value I get for my money.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Arizona Wayne on April 23, 2015, 01:41:53 PM
My understanding is the reason so many US companies have moved to outside US is because of comparable high US union blue collar wages and the highest national manuf. taxes in the world here in the US.  If you ran a business, what choice would you make?  So who do you blame, the businesses, union bosses, or Fed. govt. taxes? 

As a consumer maybe not in all cases but in most we get lower prices for products, so we win.  Or you can spend your $ whichever way you want.   :)
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: LowRyter on April 23, 2015, 01:46:39 PM
I am not sure why this is a thing.    :-\
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: canuck750 on April 23, 2015, 01:53:27 PM
Chinese parts in your new car or bike?, I would be very surprised if there were none in there somewhere.

Consumers with disposable $$$ pressed for more ways to trade their cash for stuff, and bright entrepreneurs like Walmart and Harbour Freight satisfy our need to spend through globalization and cheap overseas labour. I find it ironic that our collective western compulsion for more and more consumer products for ever less cost has led to the dismantling of our western manufacturing base that created the great wealth of the 20th century for Americans and Canadians. Now we have passed the manufacturing genie to Asia and we in turn buy from them and boost their economy while ours shrinks. However no complaining, I like my garage of cheap tools, my closet of cheap clothes and my four televisions :BEER: Perhaps we get what we deserve.

But I do wonder if one day a grandchild of mine will be photographed as a foreign labourer building a railway across China :-\
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Arizona Wayne on April 23, 2015, 01:57:51 PM
I am not sure why this is a thing.    :-\



Because some here complain about foreign parts being on X nation vehicles and wonder why.  ;)
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: HDGoose on April 23, 2015, 02:28:11 PM
My understanding is the reason so many US companies have moved to outside US is because of comparable high US union blue collar wages and the highest national manuf. taxes in the world here in the US.  If you ran a business, what choice would you make?  So who do you blame, the businesses, union bosses, or Fed. govt. taxes? 

As a consumer maybe not in all cases but in most we get lower prices for products, so we win.  Or you can spend your $ whichever way you want.   :)

Large corporations rarely pay taxes. And if they do, they post amounts rather than percentages, so it seems like a lot.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Kiwi_Roy on April 23, 2015, 02:50:24 PM
I'm thinking my anti-lock module (under the tank) is from Chine'r.    I know the fellow who was suppose to tighten it to the frame wasn't.  (see pic)

(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y32/rdbandkab/antil_zps05f43a92.jpg)

It was tight, the Guzzi was just trying to reject it ;D
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: kevdog3019 on April 23, 2015, 03:00:05 PM
Hey, those feller's that work at the plant are great workers and never miss a beat.  I'm happy to say Guido had his hand on mine at some time or another when I see no grease or loose screws or poor 'lectricity issues.  I think they deserve a raise they're so good.  Those Italian workers are the best.  Cheers  :BEER:

Italian: deserving of soul and human-like in flaw.
Chinese: Crap that makes us feel cheated when it's flawed.  
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: nikwax on April 23, 2015, 03:07:19 PM
I bought my Norge new in 2011, I thought and still think it was very well priced and a great performer, especially for the money. Would I have been willing to pay an extra $5k for it to have all European parts on it? Hell no. Designed and assembled in Italy, parts from the global parts supply chain. Does a $23k BMW or Ducati have all European parts on it? Dream on. I'm not asking for crappy parts, and I think MG spec'd a lot of high quality parts where it mattered (brakes are terrific, suspension pretty good for OEM, good luggage).  


I could say the same for my recent Volvo: side glass is Swedish, rear window is French, windshield is Chinese. Did I say "oh please Mr. Manufacturer, I have to have all Swedish glass and other parts, is it OK if I pay an extra $10k for my car to get all European parts?" Guess not.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: HDGoose on April 23, 2015, 03:18:03 PM
I bought my Norge new in 2011, I thought and still think it was very well priced and a great performer, especially for the money. Would I have been willing to pay an extra $5k for it to have all European parts on it? Hell no. Designed and assembled in Italy, parts from the global parts supply chain. Does a $23k BMW or Ducati have all European parts on it? Dream on. I'm not asking for crappy parts, and I think MG spec'd a lot of high quality parts where it mattered (brakes are terrific, suspension pretty good for OEM, good luggage).  


I could say the same for my recent Volvo: side glass is Swedish, rear window is French, windshield is Chinese. Did I say "oh please Mr. Manufacturer, I have to have all Swedish glass and other parts, is it OK if I pay an extra $10k for my car to get all European parts?" Guess not.

You are free to spend your money as you see fit. As am I. I was debating between new and used bike for ne next year. One new manufacturer has been eliminated.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: canuguzzi on April 23, 2015, 03:22:36 PM
I bought my Norge new in 2011, I thought and still think it was very well priced and a great performer, especially for the money. Would I have been willing to pay an extra $5k for it to have all European parts on it? Hell no. Designed and assembled in Italy, parts from the global parts supply chain. Does a $23k BMW or Ducati have all European parts on it? Dream on. I'm not asking for crappy parts, and I think MG spec'd a lot of high quality parts where it mattered (brakes are terrific, suspension pretty good for OEM, good luggage).  


I could say the same for my recent Volvo: side glass is Swedish, rear window is French, windshield is Chinese. Did I say "oh please Mr. Manufacturer, I have to have all Swedish glass and other parts, is it OK if I pay an extra $10k for my car to get all European parts?" Guess not.

Right, rocks don't care where the glass came from. ;)
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: rodekyll on April 23, 2015, 03:34:43 PM
I was a fiat mechanic in an independent shop.  I worked a lot on 850s and 128s.  I bought a Guzzi anyway.  If I applied the logic here to the quality of Italian production at the time I'd still be on my sportster.

I think it's humorous that with a solid track record of


brittle, cracking plastic
bubbling paint on engines
blistering and deforming fuel tanks
startus interruptus
Loose fasteners/parts falling off
ungreased bearings
fake chrome peeling
oil leaks
brakes need constant bleeding
Clutches need constant bleeding
hydros eating their top ends
wide-sumps eating their bottom ends
oil breathers sucking out all the oil
powdering coatings on valve covers
front forks breaking
computer/dash failures
analog speedo and tach failures

a guy would bail on the marquee because of a single instance of a regulator failure in an alternator Guzzi spec'd because it alone fit the allotted space.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: rocker59 on April 23, 2015, 03:43:06 PM
You are free to spend your money as you see fit. As am I. I was debating between new and used bike for ne next year. One new manufacturer has been eliminated.

So, HDGoose will be buying another HD?

Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: twhitaker on April 23, 2015, 03:43:55 PM
Shucks even the old Guzzis had foreign parts. I'm pretty sure the Borrani rims were made in Spain.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: rodekyll on April 23, 2015, 04:01:34 PM
 . . .  and the Chinese own so much American debt that we're shipping them our inferior quality coal (explains the Chinese air pollution -- US law won't allow the coal to be used here, so we send it to them and make THEM burn it -- and then condemn them for it) from the national strategic reserve just to pay the interest on the loans.  That makes China a major shareholder in the US GNP.  Could we then say that the Chinese own America and we should avoid products made in the USA?
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: blackcat on April 23, 2015, 04:11:25 PM
Shucks even the old Guzzis had foreign parts. I'm pretty sure the Borrani rims were made in Spain.

 :o

And the Akront rims on the 1000S were made in Spain. The 91 1000S big block rims were known to split down the center of the rim which required a free change out at the dealer.  :o
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: dilligaf on April 23, 2015, 04:13:31 PM
;D

I bet the board of directors always mentions you at their meetings.

Only once.  I told them it was OK, he was a friend of mine.  ::)  :BEER:
Matt
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: JJ on April 23, 2015, 04:16:21 PM
Which parts, and such, are from China?  And on which bikes?

The recent addition of Asian parts to the V7 line has not affected your new Guzzi purchases over the past decade.

As I recall, that number is zero.  So, the addition of Asian parts is a non-starter.

So, basically, this is just a troll thread...    ::)

Exactly, just what is a troll thread anyway? ::) :o ;D :D :o :o ;)  A thread where people just ramble on about nonsensical topics? (LOL) ;D :D 8) ;-T
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: charlie b on April 23, 2015, 04:44:57 PM
You are free to spend your money as you see fit. As am I. I was debating between new and used bike for ne next year. One new manufacturer has been eliminated.

LOL, yeah, any vehicle made since about 1990 has some chinese parts in it.  It might be just seals or bearings but you won't escape it unless you go way back for a used vehicle.

FWIW, I'd take some of the modern made Chinese parts over some of the US parts made back in the 70's and 80's.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: rocker59 on April 23, 2015, 04:55:02 PM
Exactly, just what is a troll thread anyway? ::) :o ;D :D :o :o ;)  A thread where people just ramble on about nonsensical topics? (LOL) ;D :D 8) ;-T

It means that he started the thread to complain about Guzzi not making a bike he'd buy when he has no intention of buying a new Guzzi, or any Guzzi made in the past ten years.

It was a disingenuous premise intended to spark debate and conversation.

In other words, a troll thread.

 :D
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: nikwax on April 23, 2015, 05:08:24 PM
You forgot the part about the Chinese owning the whole company.  So, really, the Swedish glass is foreign even though the car is built in Sweden.


Didn't forget that part at all. Nor did I forget that my car was actually built in Belgium, nor that it was designed as part of a Ford platform-sharing series with a Ford and Mazda model. I've actually toured the factory in Torslanda, it's pretty cool, automated but not as automated as Tesla or Mercedes is. Cars are designed in Sweden, and, as it's not 1950 any more, parts are globally sourced.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: nikwax on April 23, 2015, 05:12:14 PM
LOL, yeah, any vehicle made since about 1990 has some chinese parts in it.  It might be just seals or bearings but you won't escape it unless you go way back for a used vehicle.

FWIW, I'd take some of the modern made Chinese parts over some of the US parts made back in the 70's and 80's.



Come to mention...where were the faulty Delphi ignition switches made? The faulty Takata airbags?


He asks rhetorically.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: rocker59 on April 23, 2015, 05:23:27 PM
So, HDGoose will be buying another HD?



Goose,

Have you ridden a new California 1400?  Seems like it would be a good fit for a big ol' boy like you.

They're really nice machines.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: sib on April 23, 2015, 05:28:30 PM
Some of my older Jewish relatives refused to buy anything made in Germany, for obvious reasons, but eventually relented when the US started importing superior cars from Germany.  As understandable as such sentiments are, they are really both impractical and impossible to follow through on in today's international economy.  At what point in the production does the product become "made in America" or any other country?  If we import wood from trees grown in Canada, does that mean that our houses are made in Canada?  If the produce we eat is grown in California but farmed and harvested by Mexican migrant workers, does that mean the produce is Mexican?  I consider the iPhone to be an American product, even though it is made in China.  Why?  Because it is designed and "created" here.  Same for Moto Guzzi bikes, they are Italian because they're designed and "created" in Italy, regardless of where the parts come from, and, in my opinion, even if they were assembled in China, which they are not.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: rodekyll on April 23, 2015, 05:31:13 PM
Those examples were brought up in other recent topics.  The only response I got was that the commenter had no idea what I was trying to say.  The bottom line is that these harpies of hate ignore or forgive the sins of all industry except Chinese industry, and they go to very convoluted lengths to apply a different yardstick where china is involved.  The conclusion can only be that they're looking to hate the Chinese and reason doesn't matter.  For some it's easier to parrot than to think.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: pebra on April 23, 2015, 05:34:23 PM
Please all: One new, one old, problem solved.
Principles? Only people without character need principles!
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on April 23, 2015, 05:44:39 PM
Shucks even the old Guzzis had foreign parts. I'm pretty sure the Borrani rims were made in Spain.

Nope. Borrani rims were Italian-made back in the "good old days". Recently the Borrani name is being stamped into Asian copies and sold as the genuine article.

A V700 or Ambassador was almost entirely Italian made (up until the Bosch generator, regulator and starter were fitted). They did have German tires, IIRC, and English reflectors. 
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Frulk on April 23, 2015, 06:06:21 PM
It was tight, the Guzzi was just trying to reject it ;D

Man, I don't care WHO you are..That's funny right there!
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: brenwin on April 23, 2015, 09:15:11 PM
Guzzi's were built by people making decent wages, using parts made in Europe by folks making decent wages. Now they want premium money for non premium stuff. And they still cannot get it right out the door.

Understand now Paul?



Yep , it's all about the bottom line . Forget about fair wages , decent working conditions and morality , it's about profit margins first . Maybe this is just a period of transition before the human condition and quality come first . Sometimes my own naivety astounds me ! China , India and Mexico have been eating our lunch for decades . We bail out big auto and then they open up a new plant in Mexico or out source an alternator for manufacture to China. It's a brave new world boys , get used to it !
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: the Bailey on April 23, 2015, 09:21:52 PM
Yep, I boycott BP. I'll bring them to their knees just like I did Exxon.

that's f***ing funny.  just like the people who say.  don't buy gas on Tuesday.  if no one does, we can bring the oil companies to their knees.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: 56Pan on April 23, 2015, 10:25:02 PM
I just walked in.  There's chinese parts on my Norge?  You're shittin' me, right?
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: cruzziguzzi on April 23, 2015, 10:37:42 PM
While I find parts sourced from Communist China a personal problem - my real concern is the overriding tone of technological failure surrounding new bikes. Rushing to production with incompletely R&Dd products has left me cold on several fronts.

The induction/ECM issues on my Calvin broke my particular camel's back with regards to tolerating this manufacturing dispassion with regards to a fully finished product hitting the showrooms.

I know there're legion of satisfied; Cal 1400, Stelvio, V-7, et al, riders out there but the continual din of dissatisfaction is what sticks with me.

I fully accept the latin effect on fit and finish of my previous bikes but when it comes down to not being able to address failings in my garage or needing a computer and computer skills which I have no wish to acquire... my enthusiasm runs cold.

So, Torpor, impassivity or a general sense of insensibility for the new offerings? Count me in.

Todd.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Aaron D. on April 24, 2015, 06:29:05 AM
I have little interest in new Guzzis, but not because of parts sourcing.

As Charlie said, the older Guzzis were made pretty much from all Italian parts. Like those snuff box switches that tended to melt.

Just one thing-most US debt is held domestically. China had been the top nation holding US debt for a few years but Japan just got the top spot back.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Lannis on April 24, 2015, 08:02:38 AM
I have little interest in new Guzzis, but not because of parts sourcing.

As Charlie said, the older Guzzis were made pretty much from all Italian parts. Like those snuff box switches that tended to melt.

Just one thing-most US debt is held domestically. China had been the top nation holding US debt for a few years but Japan just got the top spot back.

And I find it hard to get too worried about Chinese or Japanese "holding" our debt.   When I was paying for my house, I owed money that was two times my gross annual income, and was glad to get it.   I sign a piece of paper, they give me a lot of money.

What are they going to do, send Ling around with a baseball bat to collect?   "Nice place you got, be shame something happen to it ..."

Lannis
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: rocker59 on April 24, 2015, 08:33:15 AM

It's frustrating with high-tech computerized stuff breaks.  I don't really have an interest in hooking a computer to my motorcycle to diagnose and fix problems with the EFI, ignition, whatever...

On the other hand, the stuff rarely breaks and doesn't have to have much fiddling.

I was reluctant to get fuel injected motorcycles.  So far, I've had a Quota, V11 LeMans, Bassa, and V7C that were injected.  The Quota needing tuning by a shop once in the 10,000 miles I owned it.  The V11 LeMans never in 40,000 miles.  The Bassa never in 10,000 miles.  I only rode the V7C a few thousand miles, but it didn't need anything either.

Making the gauge package an integral part of the bikes' systems does worry me.  For long-term serviceability and for the rare occasion when it gets damaged in a light crash where an older bike could just be ridden on.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Triple Jim on April 24, 2015, 08:39:49 AM
And the Akront rims on the 1000S were made in Spain. The 91 1000S big block rims were known to split down the center of the rim which required a free change out at the dealer.  :o

That's interesting.  The original front Akront on my Mille had cracks at most of the nipple holes, so the split down the center was well under way.  

When I was shopping for a replacement, I found evidence that Borrani rims are forged in the far east and finished in Italy.  Now there is "Borrani Amaricas" too, so I have no idea where a Borrani rim would be made if I bought one.  Because of all this confusion, I decided that I wasn't willing to spend extra to get the Borrani name on a rim that was not likely to be Italian, so I went with the advice of Woody at Woody's Wheelworks and bought an Excel rim.  

Things are so globalized these days that it's probably better to base a purchase decision on things like quality, features, reputation, and repair history, than name.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: AH Fan on April 24, 2015, 09:16:52 AM
Sometimes it's nice to buy American Products that are made in The USA.  Sometimes it's nice to buy Italian Products that are made in Italy.  Etc., Etc.

Heck, I don't even mind buying Japanese Products that are made in Japan!

But I do get tired of going shopping for things like Justin Boots and seeing a "made in China" tag instead of "made in Texas USA" tag.

One of the great things about Moto Guzzi has been that its in-country content was virtually 100% up until very recently.  
  
Sometimes when you buy something from someplace, you'd like it to be made in that place.


 Yup..I'm on your team Rocker............. ... ;-T


Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: fotoguzzi on April 24, 2015, 09:40:57 AM
like Bob said, "It's sundown on the union, sure was a good idea till greed got in the way".
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: sbaker on April 24, 2015, 09:56:20 AM

Buy nothing.. it's safer!
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Penderic on April 24, 2015, 10:16:37 AM
Patina!  :-*
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/1a1a_zpspcztadmb.jpg)
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: lucydad on April 24, 2015, 11:12:58 AM
I am keenly watching Moto Guzzi for their next line of bikes.  My hopes are for an updated small block, with about 65 hp, ABS brakes, and keep the great looks and air cooled simple engine.  Time will tell.  Meanwhile I will enjoy my V7R to the max, and keep piling on the miles....
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Dilliw on April 24, 2015, 11:42:07 AM
Boy Nick would've enjoyed this thread :)
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: fossil on April 24, 2015, 11:43:50 AM
That´s a funny thread. I´m following it on my rugged, solid, nice and fast Dell Latitude laptop. It has a mark at it´s underside. It reads: Made in China.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Lannis on April 24, 2015, 11:54:15 AM
That´s a funny thread. I´m following it on my rugged, solid, nice and fast Dell Latitude laptop. It has a mark at it´s underside. It reads: Made in China.

Obviously something they may be good at, then.   No telling where this Apple of mine might be from, but whoever did it did a good job.   Simple minds want to turn the discussion into a "China Hating" thread so they can holler bigotry and racism from a closed mind and open mouth, instead of having a discussion of quality and utility in various economies and cultures.

You ready to buy a ChangFeng car over a BMW?

Lannis
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Kentktk on April 24, 2015, 01:17:27 PM
I am keenly watching Moto Guzzi for their next line of bikes.  My hopes are for an updated small block, with about 65 hp, ABS brakes, and keep the great looks and air cooled simple engine.

Since the EU will require ABS on motorcycles in 2016, that wish will come true soon.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: segesta on April 24, 2015, 02:46:57 PM
Oh, and there has been a problem in the Italian garment business for some time regarding the label Made in Italy. Evidently, Chinese labor has been imported to the country at slave labor wages to produce garments in Italy with the above label driving out other local businesses with Italian labor.


Indeed--the Camorra controls the garment business, and yes, they basically use Chinese and East European almost-slave-labor at their factories near Naples. If you own an item that says Made In Italy, then you've provided money to organized crime.

http://www.amazon.com/Gomorrah-Personal-Journey-International-Organized/dp/0312427794/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1429904755&sr=8-1&keywords=gomorra

Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: nunzio on April 24, 2015, 03:04:26 PM
Funny stuff here. American riders of Italian motorcycles unhappy because of Chinese suppliers.   :pop

Paul

+1
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: mach1mustang351 on April 26, 2015, 01:56:02 PM
I work in the auto parts world and when it comes to Chinese made parts there are a couple kinds.  There is Chinese made that are made in American (or whatever other country)  controlled factories.  Those parts tend to be of good quality but cheaper in price because of the labor and cost of manufacture savings.  The cheap junk is the stuff that is made and quality controlled in China, but depending on your sensibilities the low, low cost could make that a good option for you.

Here is kind of a ranty section.  I work in auto parts and I have this same conversation many times a day.  People come in and say they want something good, premium, USA made, etc.  I quote that, they then ask "Why does it cost so much?"  We discuss features, attributes, benefits, etc.  Then it almost always ends with "give me the cheap one."  

I think over time the word Value has changed.  These days you see that work on cheap stuff.  Value now means cheap.  To me value is still a good product at a good price.  Many people don't see that.  so many of the business around us sell on price, price is being forced as the number one reason for buying and it shows in consumer behavior.  

So I guess I ask that anyone that buys stuff should know what is important to them.  If you want the cheapest thing always. that's fine, but don't strut around acting like you want American made and high quality, you don't, you get what you pay for.  If value is important, what do you value?  Quality, buying convenience, professionals that can help you when you need it, good sales people, selection, these things all cost money, and are non conducive to a business model that runs cheap.  When I go call on my customers I get professional shops that will tell me, You guys have the fastest service in town, and have professional parts people on the phone, That's Awesome!!! but xxx competitor is cheaper, their phone service is crap and they deliver slowly, if at all and are not professional.  Why cant you be cheapest too.? Being the best is not a cheap operations plan.  It costs money.  I could get rid of my professionals, cut drivers and save some expense and use that to counter some cheaper parts cost.  If I did that, where would we be??  What if everyone in the industry did that??  Everyone would be fighting for the bottom and leaving the Value customers out in the cold.  

At a managers meeting we had a speaker that talked about how in business you have two options.  You can be the cheapest, or you can be the best.  There is no room for the middle.  I believe that whole heartedly.  Would you shop at a place that had okay prices, lame sales people, and a mediocre selection??  There would be no benefit to someplace like this.  

Anyway.  Sorry for all that, but it is something I live with at work and I think about a lot.  Hopefully there was something reasonable in there.      
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Arizona Wayne on April 26, 2015, 02:23:37 PM
I appreciate your honesty and agree with you 100%.  ;-T   Many customers want the best of both worlds and bitch when they can't get it.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Lannis on April 26, 2015, 02:29:15 PM
 People come in and say they want something good, premium, USA made, etc.  I quote that, they then ask "Why does it cost so much?"  We discuss features, attributes, benefits, etc.  Then it almost always ends with "give me the cheap one."  

    

Americans.   We want to live in a First World country and be paid First World wages, but we want to pay Third World prices for everything.   

Lannis
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Stormtruck2 on April 26, 2015, 06:51:36 PM
You can have what you seek to buy.
You can have it cheap, good, or fast..



Choose two.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: wjjones on April 27, 2015, 03:59:17 AM
I work in the auto parts world and when it comes to Chinese made parts there are a couple kinds.  There is Chinese made that are made in American (or whatever other country)  controlled factories.  Those parts tend to be of good quality but cheaper in price because of the labor and cost of manufacture savings.  The cheap junk is the stuff that is made and quality controlled in China, but depending on your sensibilities the low, low cost could make that a good option for you.

Here is kind of a ranty section.  I work in auto parts and I have this same conversation many times a day.  People come in and say they want something good, premium, USA made, etc.  I quote that, they then ask "Why does it cost so much?"  We discuss features, attributes, benefits, etc.  Then it almost always ends with "give me the cheap one."  

I think over time the word Value has changed.  These days you see that work on cheap stuff.  Value now means cheap.  To me value is still a good product at a good price.  Many people don't see that.  so many of the business around us sell on price, price is being forced as the number one reason for buying and it shows in consumer behavior.  

So I guess I ask that anyone that buys stuff should know what is important to them.  If you want the cheapest thing always. that's fine, but don't strut around acting like you want American made and high quality, you don't, you get what you pay for.  If value is important, what do you value?  Quality, buying convenience, professionals that can help you when you need it, good sales people, selection, these things all cost money, and are non conducive to a business model that runs cheap.  When I go call on my customers I get professional shops that will tell me, You guys have the fastest service in town, and have professional parts people on the phone, That's Awesome!!! but xxx competitor is cheaper, their phone service is crap and they deliver slowly, if at all and are not professional.  Why cant you be cheapest too.? Being the best is not a cheap operations plan.  It costs money.  I could get rid of my professionals, cut drivers and save some expense and use that to counter some cheaper parts cost.  If I did that, where would we be??  What if everyone in the industry did that??  Everyone would be fighting for the bottom and leaving the Value customers out in the cold.  

At a managers meeting we had a speaker that talked about how in business you have two options.  You can be the cheapest, or you can be the best.  There is no room for the middle.  I believe that whole heartedly.  Would you shop at a place that had okay prices, lame sales people, and a mediocre selection??  There would be no benefit to someplace like this.  

Anyway.  Sorry for all that, but it is something I live with at work and I think about a lot.  Hopefully there was something reasonable in there.      
Yours may be the best insights in this thread.  Thanx.

Personally, I prefer a bike with fewer whiz bang electronics.  That's one reason I don't own a newer BMW or Ducati. I don't like having to take my Stelvio to the Dealer to get the TPS reset, but it shouldn't be necessary very often.  My friends ride newer BMWs and their bikes are frequently in the shop for Problems with the overly complicated suspension or driving mode systems--No, thanks.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Vasco DG on April 27, 2015, 04:39:47 AM
Yours may be the best insights in this thread.  Thanx.

Personally, I prefer a bike with fewer whiz bang electronics.  That's one reason I don't own a newer BMW or Ducati. I don't like having to take my Stelvio to the Dealer to get the TPS reset, but it shouldn't be necessary very often.  My friends ride newer BMWs and their bikes are frequently in the shop for Problems with the overly complicated suspension or driving mode systems--No, thanks.

You don't have to take your Stelvio to a dealer to have its TPS re-set? You can if you want and if it's done as a part of a normal service it'll cost you very little, (At least it would at my shop.) but there is free software readily available to allow you to do all this and more. OK, it's free if you're too mean to give a donation for others had work but really what you give is up to you and your conscience.

Methinks this is more of the evidence of the propaganda that all the 'Modern' bikes are very complex and to work on them you have to be able to slaughter a chicken and wave a particular voodoo fetish to keep them working.

CRAP. I actually think that tuning and maintaining, at a basic level, a modern Guzzi, is both cheaper and easier than an old one.

Others opinions may vary.

Pete
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: rodekyll on April 27, 2015, 05:03:58 AM
The place where the logic fails for me is when the points-and-carb folks complain that they can't fix an efi machine by the side of the road, but when their throttle cable breaks or points burn or whatever, they can whip out a spare, and seconds later are back in the hunt.  As though you're not allowed to carry spare parts for an efi bike . . . or that you're more likely to find marelli 2-pc points than a 5-pin mini relay at the roadside NAPA.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Vasco DG on April 27, 2015, 06:44:22 AM
Ah yes! But carrying and swapping electronic shit isn't nearly as macho or sexy as grimly pulling the tank off and making yourself smelly taking the lid off a carburetor to swap a cable. Also, I hate to say it, but 90% of people who post here extolling the virtues of 'Old Tech' would be baffled by their points closing up on the road and one of the perennial 'Ignition Timing' questions with the twin point 'Distributors' is that if the points are set with their maximum gap there isn't enough movement in the floating plate to time the engine accurately.

The simple answer, at least to anyone who has a clue, would be to alter the dwell, after all there is plenty on a slow revving lump like a Guzzi, but it remains a perennial 'Problem'.

This isn't a criticism of those who don't understand. Simply an indicator that if you don't your bike won't run right and may well end up having a serious break-down because of it. I haven't seen a single holed piston or seized bore on any EFI Guzzi unless it's been 'Tuned' or modified by a charlatan or fuckwit.....

Just sayin.......

Pete
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: blackcat on April 27, 2015, 06:46:09 AM

CRAP. I actually think that tuning and maintaining, at a basic level, a modern Guzzi, is both cheaper and easier than an old one.

Others opinions may vary.

Pete

Yes.

I took the CX out for a long ride yesterday and when I got back home realized that one of the carbs needs to be a bit richer based on my guesstimation. When I owned my first fuel injected bike I found the technology to be intimidating and now I find working on carbs to be the same thing with the newer bikes being the easier of the two.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on April 27, 2015, 07:17:55 AM
I won't argue with the modern Guzzi being able to be serviced/troubleshot by a home mechanic. It's still a pretty simple machine.
Comma but.
The Kid had the hots for a new MV, so I went to Wisconsin to hang out and look at it with him. It is absolutely gorgeous, fit and finish is very nice, and complicated to a fault, IMHO. *Everything* is computer controlled. It looks to me that if you buy something like that you are totally at the mercy of the dealer's "tech" and he had better be good...

I've seen too many dealer's "techs."

 (https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSsD-H9G5o2YPInuzZsmHUekd0C2t87QqMAu5SNCcMt1ilv7yBTMA)
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Vasco DG on April 27, 2015, 07:30:07 AM
And that's the issue. It's not the 'Technology' it's the 'Technician',which is why I'm so happy to just be a dumbf*ck 'Mechanic'! ;D

Pete
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: rodekyll on April 27, 2015, 12:04:48 PM
Yes.

I took the CX out for a long ride yesterday and when I got back home realized that one of the carbs needs to be a bit richer based on my guesstimation. When I owned my first fuel injected bike I found the technology to be intimidating and now I find working on carbs to be the same thing  with the newer bikes being the easier of the two.

I've been saying that here for years.  If you understand one, you understand both.  If you don't understand one, you really don't 'get' either.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: redrider90 on April 27, 2015, 12:58:57 PM
Guzzi's were built by people making decent wages, using parts made in Europe by folks making decent wages. Now they want premium money for non premium stuff. And they still cannot get it right out the door.

Understand now Paul?




Speaking of premium money I just checked out the latest line of Harleys. Seems that out of the 36 models listed only 8 ( 6 Sportsters + the 500 and 750) come in below $16,000. Out of those 28 left 13 of them cost more that $20,000.
So the Harley line 13 bikes listed at or above $20K-$39K, 14 bikes listed $15K-$20K and the rest 9 $10k-$7K. Now here is what I call premium money. A 500 CC  coming in a whopping 489#s for $6700 (+$300 shipping and $50 for California emissions)   and they do not even list the HP on the website. I defy anyone to find the HP listed on any Harley website.

"When the street is where you live, it starts to live in you. True of a rider. True of a motorcycle. The look of the Harley-Davidson Street™ 750 and 500 motorcycles comes from the street. Born out of the custom tradition of tearing down a motorcycle to its
raw, minimal essence and letting the pure rebellion inherent in the lines of the machine come screaming through. This is the essential attitude. It doesn’t require much explanation."
OMG someone really wrote this and put it in an advertisement? And they cannot even list the HP?  ~; 8) :D
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: rocker59 on April 27, 2015, 01:10:27 PM
Speaking of premium money I just checked out the latest line of Harleys. Seems that out of the 36 models listed only 8 ( 6 Sportsters + the 500 and 750) come in below $16,000.  

Street Bob - $13,449.00
http://www.harley-davidson.com/en_US/Motorcycles/street-bob.html

Low Rider  - $14,199.00
http://www.harley-davidson.com/en_US/Motorcycles/low-rider.html

Fat Bob - $15,699.00
http://www.harley-davidson.com/en_US/Motorcycles/fat-bob.html

Wide Glide - $15,799.00
http://www.harley-davidson.com/en_US/Motorcycles/wide-glide.html


they do not even list the HP on the website. I defy anyone to find the HP listed on any Harley website.

they cannot even list the HP?  ~; 8) :D

I don't think their customers are spec sheet bench racers.  If they were, then the numbers would be there.

Since you're not an HD customer, why does it matter?
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: kirby1923 on April 27, 2015, 02:09:47 PM
I like the new technology machines of today for their ease of maintenance and reliability without doubt. My R1150R has near 190K miles and I have never had to do anything to the fueling at all and had very few failures of any kind. Just normal maintenance and ride. Once the 0's and 1's are figured out the electric carbs are bullet proof and easy to maintain. Manual carbs require some fiddling but once they are right, just like the electric ones they are spot on as far as smooth delivery and power. My '97 VFR is as good as it gets across the board and I have never had one bit of problem with any of the 4 VFR's I have owned with manual carbs.

 

On the other hand I wanted classic basic motorcycle to ride while I still can enjoy one. I had Norton, Triumph, in mind but ended up with a Tonti Guzzi (CX). I don't regret my choice. Its a raw basic motorcycle with no interlocks, no gagets. It handles very good and has enough power to raise my pulse on a twisty road. It delivers over 50 mpg uses little to no oil and has been 100% reliable. However the riding position is not good for those without a good threshold for pain on longer journeys. In short its what I was looking for, something organic.

 

If I had only one motorbike it would have to be something modern, but I am able to indulge myself with the sort of Walter Mitty part of my personality..to poc ka ta.

That's why I have an old rather new Guzzi.
 
My .02  :-)

mike
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Lannis on April 27, 2015, 02:24:40 PM

I don't think their customers are spec sheet bench racers.  If they were, then the numbers would be there.

Since you're not an HD customer, why does it matter?

I've never looked at the horsepower rating of a bike that I've bought.   Never cared.   If I'm buying a 1000cc touring bike from a major manufacturer, what does it matter?

Just a number; one that's lied about, misrepresented, and too often used by both the manufacturer and the customer as a test of manhood of some kind.     

Some people like them, though, and that's OK, but often the manufacturer knows that their market doesn't care.   Bike's not going on the track ....

Lannis
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Triple Jim on April 27, 2015, 03:29:00 PM
I don't think their customers are spec sheet bench racers.  If they were, then the numbers would be there.

They often make torque known.  My take is that, as we know, they sell bikes with very mildly tuned engines, opening the door to selling a lot of high performance parts.  Publishing the low stock HP numbers would not help sales, so they choose not to do that.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: redrider90 on April 27, 2015, 09:03:55 PM



I don't think their customers are spec sheet bench racers.  If they were, then the numbers would be there.

Since you're not an HD customer, why does it matter?

 ??? I am not sure what you point is about since I am not a HD customer, why does it matter (that they do not list HP figures). So I can only comment on it  if I am looking to buy? In which case I would be on a HD site bitching that I cannot find HP figures for the bikes.  :D I had 2 HDs and that was enough.
I guess more Guzzi customers are spec sheet bench racers because Guzzi lists the HP on all their bikes under Specs.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: redrider90 on April 27, 2015, 09:10:41 PM
They often make torque known.  My take is that, as we know, they sell bikes with very mildly tuned engines, opening the door to selling a lot of high performance parts.  Publishing the low stock HP numbers would not help sales, so they choose not to do that.


Exactly what I was thinking when I commented on the lack of HP numbers.
They do post the engine torque and they even post the "engine torque testing method"  which is called the "J1349" I wonder what that is.
 
Title: Re: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Kev m on April 27, 2015, 09:15:29 PM

Speaking of premium money I just checked out the latest line of Harleys. Seems that out of the 36 models listed only 8 ( 6 Sportsters + the 500 and 750) come in below $16,000. Out of those 28 left 13 of them cost more that $20,000.


<snip>

and they do not even list the HP on the website. I defy anyone to find the HP listed on any Harley website.

Are you sure on the prices? I know a few are up there, but even an RK was sub $20k last time I checked (this year).

As for HP. you have to back door it.

They publish stock vs. Screaming eagle accessorized dyno charts in the v Screaming Eagle Performance Accessories catalogs (they have for decades). So you can get that pdf off their website and get HP figures for most of their bikes.

You'll also occasionally find them in press releases or articles in their own magazine.
Title: Re:
Post by: Kev m on April 27, 2015, 09:23:40 PM
PS, I've already found 2 Dynas below $16 - Street Bob $13.5k and Low Rider $14.2k.

Wait make that all Dynas except the bagger FLD are below $16.

Fat Bob $15.7k, Wide Glide $15.8k.

One Softail is below $16k

The RK is below $20k as are all Softails.

The Dressers are mostly low $20's but go as high as $27.

The only things more expensive are CVOs but comparing them is like comparing a Ford Raptor to a base F150_ they're not the same thing.
Title: Re: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: redrider90 on April 27, 2015, 09:26:16 PM
Are you sure on the prices? I know a few are up there, but even an RK was sub $20k last time I checked (this year).

As for HP. you have to back door it.

They publish stock vs. Screaming eagle accessorized dyno charts in the v Screaming Eagle Performance Accessories catalogs (they have for decades). So you can get that pdf off their website and get HP figures for most of their bikes.

You'll also occasionally find them in press releases or articles in their own magazine.

I actually used this site for pricing http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/6/2015/Buyers-Guide-Manufacturer/2015-Harley-Davidson-Buyers-Guide.aspx
Title: Re: Re: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Kev m on April 27, 2015, 09:30:49 PM
I had it up on their website and counted it out to make sure I had the numbers right. I sure didn't want to put it all up on WG. It would have taken a whole lotta space for nothing.
Well, look at post 104 I just went through it and you were looking at something other than just base MSRP.


Edit, but I see Rocket beat me to it.
Title: Re: Re: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: redrider90 on April 27, 2015, 09:33:54 PM
Well, look at post 104 I just went through it and you were looking at something other than just base MSRP.

I used this site http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/6/2015/Buyers-Guide-Manufacturer/2015-Harley-Davidson-Buyers-Guide.aspx
Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Kev m on April 27, 2015, 09:36:17 PM

I used this site http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/6/2015/Buyers-Guide-Manufacturer/2015-Harley-Davidson-Buyers-Guide.aspx
Well that's just silly when Harley puts their prices on their own website:

http://www.harley-davidson.com/content/h-d/en_US/home/motorcycles/tools/compare-bikes.html?version=desktop

;)


Edit - Actually your link wasn't bad. But you seem to have rounded up for your summary. And maybe more importantly it includes at least 6 very limited production CVOs and/or Trikes. Sorts skews the summary.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: redrider90 on April 27, 2015, 09:41:06 PM
Well that's just silly when Harley puts their prices on their own website:


http://www.harley-davidson.com/content/h-d/en_US/home/motorcycles/tools/compare-bikes.html?version=desktop

;)

Well this site lists all HDs from top to bottom on one page with the prices right off HD site. It made it a lot easier than looking up 36 different models. Not to mention it links to the specs sheet at the same time.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Kev m on April 27, 2015, 09:42:59 PM
Well this site lists all HDs from top to bottom on one page with the prices right off HD site. It made it a lot easier than looking up 36 different models. Not to mention it links to the specs sheet at the same time.
Sorry, posting on my phone and can't keep editing before you respond.

From my last post

Edit - Actually your link wasn't bad. But you seem to have rounded up for your summary. And maybe more importantly it includes at least 6 very limited production CVOs and/or Trikes. Sorts skews the summary.
Title: Re: Re: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: redrider90 on April 27, 2015, 09:44:17 PM
Well, look at post 104 I just went through it and you were looking at something other than just base MSRP.


Edit, but I see Rocket beat me to it.

Nope those are MSRP numbers.  The site I used was taking the base prices right off HD and quoting them as MSRP
Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Kev m on April 27, 2015, 09:55:25 PM
Nope those are MSRP numbers.  The site I used was taking the base prices right off HD and quoting them as MSRP
I see that now, but as Rocker and I pointed out it didn't seem that way because your summary was then incorrect.

Like you left 4 out of 5 Dyna models out of the sub $16k count which is true unless you rounded up or added in something other than base MSRP.

So it's 2 Streets, 6 Sportsters, 4 Dynas and 1 Softail (13 bikes that come in sub $16k).

9 come in between $16-20 including both v-rods, most Softails, and three baggers (Heritage Softail, Road King, and Switchback).

The only ones that come in above $20 are all 8 Glides (and most of them are below $25) or they are Trikes or limited eduction factory customs (CVOs) which are really a separate category (as I said earlier like a Ford Raptor or Dodge SRT).

It's a slightly different picture then you were painting. Though still largely premium, not that different from BMW, or arguably even Ducati in price structures.
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: rocker59 on April 27, 2015, 10:15:49 PM
Yep.

 
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: redrider90 on April 27, 2015, 10:22:51 PM
Harvey , my guess is that like the guys who do the Sonic drive in commercials that live in Chicago and have probably never seen a Sonic , the guy that wrote the Street ad has never been on a MC  :D

  Dusty


I'll have you know I grew up in Chicago and crashed my first HD there. We didn't need no Sonics. We had true drive in Hamburger joints.  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: redrider90 on April 27, 2015, 11:00:45 PM
I see that now, but as Rocker and I pointed out it didn't seem that way because your summary was then incorrect.

Like you left 4 out of 5 Dyna models out of the sub $16k count which is true unless you rounded up or added in something other than base MSRP.

So it's 2 Streets, 6 Sportsters, 4 Dynas and 1 Softail (13 bikes that come in sub $16k).

9 come in between $16-20 including both v-rods, most Softails, and three baggers (Heritage Softail, Road King, and Switchback).

The only ones that come in above $20 are all 8 Glides (and most of them are below $25) or they are Trikes or limited eduction factory customs (CVOs) which are really a separate category (as I said earlier like a Ford Raptor or Dodge SRT).

It's a slightly different picture then you were painting. Though still largely premium, not that different from BMW, or arguably even Ducati in price structures.



So next time I won't count with my fingers laying on the couch with my laptop on my belly while eating my lunch.  :food   :BEER:
You nit picked my numbers which were off  but missed the point of my post. I was responding to Goose who commented and I quote  "Guzzi's were built by people making decent wages, using parts made in Europe by folks making decent wages. Now they want premium money for non premium stuff. And they still cannot get it right out the door".

Seems the fellows at HD have a problem packing their parts.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqaAHQ3DCqM
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: rocker59 on April 27, 2015, 11:26:07 PM
I'll say good night with two words, "Moto Guzzi" (and a picture!)

(http://g3.img-dpreview.com/A098FA5A8B95425781D5BED25C918195.jpg)

 :bike
Title: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Arizona Wayne on April 28, 2015, 12:12:28 AM

Speaking of premium money I just checked out the latest line of Harleys. Seems that out of the 36 models listed only 8 ( 6 Sportsters + the 500 and 750) come in below $16,000. Out of those 28 left 13 of them cost more that $20,000.
So the Harley line 13 bikes listed at or above $20K-$39K, 14 bikes listed $15K-$20K and the rest 9 $10k-$7K. Now here is what I call premium money. A 500 CC  coming in a whopping 489#s for $6700 (+$300 shipping and $50 for California emissions)   and they do not even list the HP on the website. I defy anyone to find the HP listed on any Harley website.

"When the street is where you live, it starts to live in you. True of a rider. True of a motorcycle. The look of the Harley-Davidson Street™ 750 and 500 motorcycles comes from the street. Born out of the custom tradition of tearing down a motorcycle to its
raw, minimal essence and letting the pure rebellion inherent in the lines of the machine come screaming through. This is the essential attitude. It doesn’t require much explanation."
OMG someone really wrote this and put it in an advertisement? And they cannot even list the HP?  ~; 8) :D




Actually I'm surprised that HD would post something like this.  Up to now their attitude from on top has been............"we don't sell motorcycles, we sell a lifestyle".......or is this just a new version of that?
Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
Post by: Kev m on April 28, 2015, 07:08:37 AM


So next time I won't count with my fingers laying on the couch with my laptop on my belly while eating my lunch.  :food   :BEER:
You nit picked my numbers which were off  but missed the point of my post. I was responding to Goose who commented and I quote  "Guzzi's were built by people making decent wages, using parts made in Europe by folks making decent wages. Now they want premium money for non premium stuff. And they still cannot get it right out the door".

Red, I'm sorry, I hope you didn't take my nit picking the wrong way. I didn't miss your point, which I don't disagree with, but simply objected to the skewed perspective caused by a few slight inaccuracies.

I felt it contributed too or possibly stemmed from a myth of HD pricing I've long seen presented (mostly, but not exclusively, by non-HD riders) over the years. So since we're on this tangent of pricing let's examine it closer.

Are GUZZI's and HARLEY'S PRICES "premium" or high?

I would argue that generally speaking they are right in the ballpark with many other brands. Though some of the Asian products will sometimes undercut them by a percentage, there are equally times where they are on the low end of the range.

It can be difficult to compare as some brands/models just don't have as many similarities.

But here is smattering of competitive product pricing across the Harley and Guzzi lines by brand's closest CC capacity motor and when possible by bike type/purpose/category (realizing some bikes just aren't in the same category as Harleys are primarily cruisers/tourers and not sports, adventure tourers etc.).

I left out some of the Sports from Triumph and Ducati brands because they are just so ridiculous to compare say a Street Triple to something remotely close in CCs in a Harley - it's like comparing a Alfa Romeo to a Chevy Truck at that point. Similarly I only picked a few of the Asian brand products that I felt more closely aligned in category/type and left out things from Dirt Bikes to SuperSports. And I didn't even try to account for all the "Cruisers", but I've done the Cruiser only comparison before and what you see here is mostly representative.

Highest in Category in RED
Lowest in Green


Beginner/Learner Bikes 750cc and smaller:

Street 500/750  - $6.8k/$7.5K
BMW G650GS, C650GT  - $7.9k, $10.5k
Honda CB500F - $5.8k


Smaller Bikes 700-900cc

Sportster 883L/N - $8.3/$8.4k
Guzzi V7 Stone/Special/Racer - $8.5k/$9.3k/$10.5k
BMW F700GS/F800GS/F800GS Adv/F800GT/F800R - $9.9k/$12.2k/$13.7k/$11.9k/$9.9k
Ducati Scrambler Icon/Classic/Full Throttle/Urban End - $8.5k/$9.9k/$9.9k/$9.9k
Triumph Bonnie Variants - Bonnie SE/America/T100 Black/Scrambler/T100/ - $8.0k/$8.4k/$8.9k/$9.1K/$9.4K/   (really could put some of these under 1200 Sporty too)
Honda Shadow 750/NC700X/Shadow Aero 750 - $7.5k/$7.8k/$8.2
Yamaha Bolt/Bolt R/Bolt C-Spec - $7.9k/$8.4K/$8.7k

1000-1200cc Standards/Sports
Sportster 1200 C/X/V/T - $10.7/$10.8/$10.9/$11.8k
Guzzi Griso 8V - $12.9k
BMW R1200R - $13.9k
Ducati Monster 821 Dark/821/1200/1200S - $10.9k/$11.5K/$13.7k/$15.9k
Indian Scout - $10.9k
Triumph Bonnie Thruxton/America LT- $9.5k/$9.8K
Honda CB1100X - $10.4k

Mid-Range/Larger Cruisers/Sport Tourers/Standards:
Dyna Street Bob/Low Rider/Fat Bob/Wide Glide/Switchback - $14.2k/$14.2k/$15.7k/$15.8k/$16.9k
Guzzi Norge GT 8V - $16.2k
BMW R9T - $14.5k (or maybe this should go under Vrod, there's no real direct comparison)
BMW - R1200RT - $17.7k  (Arguably Switchback comparison)
Triumph Tbird/Tbird Storm/Tbird Comm/Tbird LT - $13.5k/$14.7k/$15.7K/$16.7k


1200-1400cc Sport Cruisers/Muscle Bikes
V-Rod Variants - $16.2k/$16.6k
Guzzi Cali 1400C - $15.5k (Could compare this with the Dynas too)
BMW - K1300S - $15.8k
Ducati Diavel/Diavel Carbon/Diavel Titanium - $17.9k*/$21.4k/$27.9k (that last, along with the Panigale really compare better to the CVO models)
Triumph RIII - $14.9k
Honda Valkyrie - $17.9k*

*The Diavel Carbon/Titanium just kinda corrupt the results, well, that's true on a lot of these that an oddity in the category is the highest.

Tough to compare w/ some brands, but I'll call Softails "a specialty for Harley, and the following a specialty for some of the below"):
SPECIALTY BIKES
Softail Slim/Fat Boy Lo/Fat Boy/Deluxe/Heritage/Breakout  - $15.9k/$17.5k/$17.7k/$18.1k/$18.3k/$18.6k/
Guzzi Stelvio NTX - $15.9k
R1200GS/R1200GS Adv - $16.2k/$18.3K
Indian Dark Horse/Classic/Vintage - $16.9k/$18.9K/$20.9k
Triumph Explorer/Explorer XR - $15.7k/$17.2k

FULL BOAT TOURERS
Glide Touring Variants Road King/Street Glide/Street Glide Special/Ultra/Ultra Low/Ultra Limited/Ultra Limtd Low   - $18.5k/$20.6k/$22.9k/$23.2k/$24.4k/$26.1k/$27k
Guzzi Cali 1400T - $18.5k
BMW - K1600GT/GTL/GTL Exclu - $21.7k/$23.9k/$29.9k*
Indian - Chieftain/Roadmaster - $22.9k/$26.9k
Triumph RIII T/Trophy  - $16.9k/$18.9k
Honda GW F6B/F6B Delux/GW 1800 - $20.5k/$21.5k/$23.9k


* Maybe the GTL Exclusive is getting to a level like the CVO's and should be eliminated, as which point the Ultra Limited becomes most expensive, but you'll see the rest listed are quite competitive

Now I fully recognize that many of these bikes could be fit into other categories and the comparisons high/low might come out a little different. And any one person might not cross-shop a number bikes in a given category, or might chose to cross-shop across my categories. I admit it's imperfect. But I do think it gives an idea of the relative product lines and the relative prices. That generally speaking Triumph and some of the Asian brands may be slightly lower than Harley, Guzzi, BMW and other "premium" brands. But I also see that Harley and Guzzi are, more often than not, right in the ballpark.