Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: cleatusj on September 18, 2015, 12:53:50 PM

Title: Head is now Screwed on
Post by: cleatusj on September 18, 2015, 12:53:50 PM
Last Sunday me and my Calli 3 had a close encounter with a pipe fence and rock pillar. Heading into a heard right handier I down shifted and grabbed brakes and had none. My riding buddy said I was hanging over the fence and rock pillar, but the next thing I remember was being put into the ambulance and being asked about new scratches on my helmet and being told I broke my neck. It turned out I needed one screw installed thru V2 to keep the crack closed in the pivot pin until it could heel.

I got home last night late and now have had time to look at the bike. Here's some pic's.

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/cleatusj/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150918_110124_zpsjgspyivg.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/cleatusj/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150918_110124_zpsjgspyivg.jpg.html)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/cleatusj/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150918_110140_zpsvggdhjdc.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/cleatusj/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150918_110140_zpsvggdhjdc.jpg.html)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/cleatusj/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150918_110156_zpscokqyuuj.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/cleatusj/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150918_110156_zpscokqyuuj.jpg.html)

No halo at this time, but a neck brace for a few weeks. I do believe I'm supposed to be on this earth for a while longer. Guess it's time to build leading links, NOW.
Title: Re: Head is now Screwed on
Post by: Triple Jim on September 18, 2015, 01:35:40 PM
Glad you're going to be OK.  Do you know how you lost all brakes?
Title: Re: Head is now Screwed on
Post by: Vasco DG on September 18, 2015, 02:19:23 PM
Just a guess here but that is a fairly wide and substantial looking chair, the forces imposed on the front end, especially in tight corners, would be substantial and I'd think that there would of been substantial twisting of the forks. Even with the rigidity of the spindle it is possible that the deformation of the front end alignment could of caused the pads to be pushed back into the calipers as the forks twisted in relation to the wheel. Result? When the brakes ar applied the first few pumps of the master cylinder are going to have to push the pistons back out until the pads contact the discs. While that's happening there won't be any retardation!

At the very least a MUCH more substantial fork brace is needed on telescope but the real answer is, as you say, a well built set of links.

Pete
Title: Re: Head is now Screwed on
Post by: cleatusj on September 18, 2015, 03:33:24 PM
I think Pete is on to something but with a different out come. I'm thinking that having the steering damper attached to that broken lower leg may have stressed the leg leading to cracks that broke when brake was applied and axle deflected down an back, resulting in rotor coming out of caliper.







I
Title: Re: Head is now Screwed on
Post by: malik on September 18, 2015, 03:57:21 PM
Nasty. Glad you escaped with just a week in hospital & are bouncing back into the repairs & improvements. Hope the neck & any other minor scrapes heal fast. Happy fettling.

Mal
Title: Re: Head is now Screwed on
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on September 18, 2015, 06:35:10 PM
Honestly that's kind of a wimpy looking setup on that front fork. There is a fair amount of engineering on a rig front end. No offense intended, of course. Glad it was only a broken neck.. (EEKS!!)   :wink: :smiley:
Title: Re: Head is now Screwed on
Post by: cleatusj on September 18, 2015, 07:31:33 PM
This is what I hit. The rider following me said the black mark is where my helmet made contact.

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/cleatusj/piller_zpsv26mct6w.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/cleatusj/media/piller_zpsv26mct6w.jpg.html)

I should be able to pull the forks and tripple trees tomorrow, so I can check for bent neck/frame.

I'm thinking of using 1.5x.120 wall DOM with 1.25x.120 DOM inside for new bent legs for a leading link fork.
Title: Re: Head is now Screwed on
Post by: elvisboy77 on September 18, 2015, 07:39:24 PM
Wow!  I am so glad you are ok.
Title: Re: Head is now Screwed on
Post by: rodekyll on September 18, 2015, 07:55:08 PM
Just to be punny -- some headstone!  Glad you're able to write about it.

I too am interested in what happened to the brakes.  Having them fail completely between one use and the next is a complete puzzler.  Was it all of them or just front or rear?
Title: Re: Head is now Screwed on
Post by: Triple Jim on September 18, 2015, 07:59:22 PM
Right, RK, I'm wondering that too.  One of the reasons I dropped my idea of "unlinking" my Mille's brakes is that the way they are, either system can fail completely, and you still have a front brake.
Title: Re: Head is now Screwed on
Post by: rodekyll on September 18, 2015, 08:03:51 PM
I'm having a hard time with vasco's theory, especially when I look at where and how the fork lower broke.  I'm almost inclined to think a structural failure right there started the catastrophe.  More pics would be cool.
Title: Re: Head is now Screwed on
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on September 19, 2015, 05:13:09 AM
I'm having a hard time with vasco's theory, especially when I look at where and how the fork lower broke.  I'm almost inclined to think a structural failure right there started the catastrophe.  More pics would be cool.

That was my thought, too..
Title: Re: Head is now Screwed on
Post by: Vasco DG on September 19, 2015, 07:11:34 AM
It was an idea based on experience with fork warpage but is by no means an explanation. I do think that if there was some form of steering damper connected to the lower fork slider that may well of been a contributory factor to the breakage. The sliders aren't resigned to handle side loadings.

Pete
Title: Re: Head is now Screwed on
Post by: John A on September 19, 2015, 07:25:50 AM
The pads probably were pushed back but after the failure and could have been the first indication of a problem. The reason I'm thinking that is because a rider would do everything in his power to not hit a solid structure, knowing that's where you get seriously hurt and if you can miss the object you likely can walk away. Looks like there is enough bracketry to hold it in place for a little while. It's a cautionary tale for me and I'm glad you are here to relate it!
Title: Re: Head is now Screwed on
Post by: cleatusj on September 19, 2015, 10:37:52 AM
I'm sure this is what started the problem.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/cleatusj/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150919_100405_zpsfdawyb7n.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/cleatusj/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150919_100405_zpsfdawyb7n.jpg.html)

That 5/8" alum ell bracket still attached to rear fender support, was bolted across lower leg to both fender support brackets, hit the front left corner of the pillar and acted as a lever to add twisting action to the leg.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/cleatusj/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150918_110124_zpsjgspyivg.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/cleatusj/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150918_110124_zpsjgspyivg.jpg.html)

Some things will never be known for sure, but that is my take from what I remember and studying the carnage.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/cleatusj/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150919_100924_zpsbghezwgk.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/cleatusj/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/20150919_100924_zpsbghezwgk.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Head is now Screwed on
Post by: Petrus Rocks on September 19, 2015, 10:49:47 AM
Broke my neck in '07- glad you had as little damage as you did.  That was quite a crash!-good luck with the rebuild.
 My brakes are unlinked.  I've always liked the idea of having some vs none brakes.  Interestingly enough, my rr master cylinder bit the dust after riding the Watkins Glen track.  Had front brakes for the 60 mile ride home. :thumb:
Title: Re: Head is now Screwed on
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on September 19, 2015, 10:50:54 AM
I'm certainly glad you are still with us.. and feel well enough to take on a project already.  :thumb: :bow:
Title: Re: Head is now Screwed on
Post by: Triple Jim on September 19, 2015, 04:38:35 PM
My brakes are unlinked.  I've always liked the idea of having some vs none brakes.

Not sure what you mean.  With my stock "linked" brakes, either system can completely fail and I still have a working front brake.  With a conventional separate system, you could lose all of the front brake and have only the rear brake.
Title: Re: Head is now Screwed on
Post by: rodekyll on September 19, 2015, 05:06:40 PM
Folks just don't understand the linked concept.

Front brake lever operates rt ft brake only.  This means that for 'normal' braking/speed trim there is no difference between linked and unlinked brakes.

Rear brake pedal operates rear brake and the other front brake.  This means that it operates exactly like unlinked brakes to trim out your stopping EXCEPT that you get more front brake when you use it.

What makes the linked system nice on a touring sled is that you can do a balanced stop with the pedal only.  You can add front braking if you need to.

What makes linked brakes not nice in adv conditions is that sometimes you want to drag the rear wheel on a muddy downhill while leaving the front wheel free.  Linked brakes can't do that.  They're more suited to predictable hard pavement.

All that said, I delinked my brakes because of the muddy downhill scenario.  It's a regular part of my riding.  If it wasn't I'd have kept the linked configuration.


But that's all really a different topic.  I'm still interested in the nature of the failure on this rig.  I'm contemplating a steering damper and alternative front end geometries on the trike and would like to avoid this situation if it's a design thing.
Title: Re: Head is now Screwed on
Post by: JoeW on September 19, 2015, 05:27:55 PM
Having been a sidecar pilot for the last 26 years, I often think of what would happen in an emergency situation. Whether it's caused by conditions, other vehicles or equipment failure, I hope I would live to tell the tale. I'm glad to hear your on the mend, I bet you wife and doctors are thrilled to see you out in the garage only a week after the accident.
On de-linking brakes. My EML rig has a brake on the sidecar wheel, it was recommended that that brake be teed into the rear master cylinder. A friend and I had assembled his EML rig that way and found the brakes to be marginal at best. When I built my rig, I diverted the line that normally runs up the backbone to the sidecar brake and plumbed both front brakes to a new 13mm front master cylinder. I rarely use the front brake, in most driving situations, the foot brake is more than adequate. Just putting it out there.
Title: Re: Head is now Screwed on
Post by: cleatusj on September 19, 2015, 10:55:41 PM
Rodekyll, after much thinking and looking at the failed parts I believe the front bearing coming apart pushed the pucks back and caused the brake handle to bottom on throttle before grabbing the rotor, which caused the throttle not to close. That same bearing being gone would of caused the other side pucks to be opened more than normal so that using rear brake lever would not of allowed as much braking either. The lower leg braking was caused by the extra 2" of leverage hanging out to the side that impacted the rock pillar.

That's my .02 worth of thinking now.
Title: Re: Head is now Screwed on
Post by: Triple Jim on September 19, 2015, 11:00:10 PM
Ah, that makes sense.  A badly wobbling front wheel could have made the pistons on both calipers retract, and in the moment of the emergency, there many not have been time to squeeze the lever and push the pedal multiple times to get pressure back, even if you had figured out what was wrong.
Title: Re: Head is now Screwed on
Post by: rodekyll on September 19, 2015, 11:12:56 PM
I wasn't seeing that the bearing had failed until later in the topic.  Yes, that would explain everything.  Is that a guzzi front wheel?  Taper or ball bearing?  Did it warn you that it was failing?  Do you think the damper mount point had anything to do with the bearing issue, or was it just the leverage for breaking the fork?
Title: Re: Head is now Screwed on
Post by: cleatusj on September 20, 2015, 01:31:01 AM
Stock wheel with ball bearing and I think too much chair flying. I did not notice anything wrong until I down shifted and grabbed brake.